Drylaw Hearts Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 I think you're going over the top there JT. A mistake without question but one he has clearly learned from. As to adding to the debt well it's all U19 players so the salaries concerned won't be huge. Some of the salaries handed out to U'19s were huge in comparison with players of the same age at other SPL Clubs. IIRC Mole, Elliot and Wallace (amongst many others) were given big money contracts whilst still eligible to play for the U'19's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PTBCAL Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 "I want to wait until confirmed but I heard on Friday the stand etc was paid for and wont add to the debt as external investors have paid for it." Thanks to another poster who directed me here re this. Stanley, What I hear is that Hearts are indeed close to agreeing external investment for the new stand but nothing has actually been agreed and it will not cover the complete costs but a decent chunk - i have no idea re figs though. Either way it seems v.good news. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacerjoe Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 Shorter term deals let some of Hearts, Hibs, Kilmarnock etc better young players walk away or be taken from them for next to nothing previously so it's a balancing act. Exactly. This conversation is ridiculous, because its all based on hindsight. You have to make decisions based on whether or not you feel players will make it or not. Every club does it. Its very easy though, when a player fails to make the cut, to say "oh why did we put him on such a long contract?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Team Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 Long term deals destroyed the careers of Steven Simmons, Clum Elliot and many more. FACT. Rubbish - a poor attitude and a distinct lack of pace, fitness and ability ruined Stephen Simmons career! As for Clum - my opinion is that he isnt good enough technically and he isnt quick enough. I also hate the way he blames all others around him for his shortcomings - like a spoilt teenager. However, coaches at Hearts with more knowledge than me say Clum has what it takes to be a top player. In which case, placing him on a long term contract may be a good move IF he finally repays the coaches faith in him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jammy T Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 Exactly. This conversation is ridiculous, because its all based on hindsight. You have to make decisions based on whether or not you feel players will make it or not. Every club does it. Its very easy though, when a player fails to make the cut, to say "oh why did we put him on such a long contract?" Its not based on hindsight A sizeable chunk of people at the time thought the scattergun approach to mass 5 year contracts was wrong. They have been proven right to that extent The bit highlighted is my concern Vlad's decisions appear to have been highly dependant upon people from a sport completely different to football. Its evidence of the continued flawed judgement of the man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Son Of Anarchy Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 Here we go again, a positve thread brought down to negative arguements:mad: Remember the start? Csaba gives the reserves a kick up the jacksy? Once again more good news about the gaffer,loving what im hearing. Then a sneaky wee possible bit of good news concerning the new stand and investment. If true,superb news, but hey,cant have that eh? Lets argue about 5 yr friggin contracts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamboinglasgow Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 Exactly. This conversation is ridiculous, because its all based on hindsight. You have to make decisions based on whether or not you feel players will make it or not. Every club does it. Its very easy though, when a player fails to make the cut, to say "oh why did we put him on such a long contract?" my view on this is they are good at stopping good young players from going from clubs for nothing. I think the best way of ensuring players improve on these long contracts is to put finincial rewards for achieving certain increases in performance. So say at the end of the first season the coach or a panel decide the player has improved enough in the season then he is a given a suitable increase in wages. This happens through the whole contract so they could earn as much as for example ?1000 over 5 years so say at the begining they were earning ?500 a week, by the end of 5 years it is ?1500. As long as the coach or panel decide on a fair and balanced system with maybe a series of goals thrown in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jammy T Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 my view on this is they are good at stopping good young players from going from clubs for nothing. I think the best way of ensuring players improve on these long contracts is to put finincial rewards for achieving certain increases in performance. So say at the end of the first season the coach or a panel decide the player has improved enough in the season then he is a given a suitable increase in wages. This happens through the whole contract so they could earn as much as for example ?1000 over 5 years so say at the begining they were earning ?500 a week, by the end of 5 years it is ?1500. As long as the coach or panel decide on a fair and balanced system with maybe a series of goals thrown in. A good idea - protects the club and motivates the players Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jammy T Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 Here we go again, a positve thread brought down to negative arguements:mad: Remember the start? Csaba gives the reserves a kick up the jacksy? Once again more good news about the gaffer,loving what im hearing. Then a sneaky wee possible bit of good news concerning the new stand and investment. If true,superb news, but hey,cant have that eh? Lets argue about 5 yr friggin contracts. Yeah lets just ignore the snippet that suggests we were run like a lithuanian basketball club for at least a short while.... Agendas agendas.... At the end of the day it would appear the entire foundations propping up Vlads strategy is youth Yet it would appear that his initial methods in reaping the benefits of the youth we had were flawed and possibly didnt get the best out of the group of players we had at that level Directly a football issue Directly an issue raised in this thread Why would you want to censor discussion on this issue? Are you part of the JKB police, or should that be KGB police?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sked21 Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 It is simple. The coaches should recommend who should and shouldn't get a five year deal. I know they can not predict if someone is going to go down the panny ie Elliot, Simmons. But they should be able to tell who is likely to go onto to become a quality player. Whcih means give them a long term deal to fend off the old firm and the likes. But equally they should be able to tell that the likes of the Arsmstrongs, Mackle etc probably will not cut it with us. So therefore no contract should be handed out or a much shorter contract to see if they are able to improve significantly. I don't know how it was done. But the upper management should be asking the coaches who is likely to make it and who isn't as they should have the ability to tell. I am stating the obvious but as we all know Hearts are not known for doing the obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacerjoe Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 my view on this is they are good at stopping good young players from going from clubs for nothing. I think the best way of ensuring players improve on these long contracts is to put finincial rewards for achieving certain increases in performance. So say at the end of the first season the coach or a panel decide the player has improved enough in the season then he is a given a suitable increase in wages. This happens through the whole contract so they could earn as much as for example ?1000 over 5 years so say at the begining they were earning ?500 a week, by the end of 5 years it is ?1500. As long as the coach or panel decide on a fair and balanced system with maybe a series of goals thrown in. Sounds like a solid idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Son Of Anarchy Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 [quote name= Why would you want to censor discussion on this issue? Are you part of the JKB police' date=' or should that be KGB police??[/quote] Wow,cant say ive ever been accused of being a pig or anything to do with the pigs before so theres a first. For the record,no im not,either of them. Just wondering if you ever see any positives at all in anything Hearts related? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jammy T Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 Wow,cant say ive ever been accused of being a pig or anything to do with the pigs before so theres a first. For the record,no im not,either of them. Just wondering if you ever see any positives at all in anything Hearts related? The JKB police are more Community Officers than hardcore pigs. You shouldnt be offended In answer to your question: Csaba Our community based stuff The magnificent 7 campaign Winning games - always positive, but always worthy of exploration as to where improvements can be made, or where there are shortcomings and why Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Son Of Anarchy Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 The JKB police are more Community Officers than hardcore pigs. You shouldnt be offended In answer to your question: Csaba Our community based stuff The magnificent 7 campaign Winning games - always positive, but always worthy of exploration as to where improvements can be made, or where there are shortcomings and why Can i just say,where im from pigs are pigs, end of so difficult not to be offended,but im not as it was said in jest:) Glad you do see positives mate,just got the impression you are always a tad negative following the standard JKB trend,but i stand corrected. I agree there should always be exploration to where improvements can be made,but for the first time in a long time im hearing positives instead of negatives coming from tynie and tend to concentrate on them.Not blindness,just optimism. Vlads still a muppet in my book,but csaba has really cheered me up recently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jammy T Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 Vlads still a muppet in my book,but csaba has really cheered me up recently. Me too - this is me cheered up! Not delighted, not chuffed to bits or on any sort of happy train But more positive than at any point since Valdas started season 2 off so terribly. I'll remain anxious to see if Csaba remains in situ because to be honest I do think he's about as good as we'll get with Vlad. I so get a sense that Cuceiro is serving some sort of apprenticeship first, but if the season continues as it has done since the start and Csaba is still in place at the end of the season I'll be even more happy. Re this thread, I trust SMH to have mentioned what he did on some sort of factual basis, so it was IMO worthy of discussion, so although it isnt really positive it was still up for grabs. Csaba continues to say the right stuff and would appear to be acting on it. Not much to see or debate on that issue The stand funding may be a great deal depending on the finer detail but it wont be being gifted to us - and to be honest I'd want to see something a bit more before tearing whatever deal it is to bits.... So that leaves our excursion into footbasketball - which I still think is shocking, because I dont believe for a minute that only one decision was made on the advice of these chumps (now that it would appear Vlad was taking advice on board from such gadges) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spennyboy Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 what was the team? Who scored for us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seymour M Hersh Posted September 11, 2008 Share Posted September 11, 2008 How many other decisions were decided on basketball philosophies. That a manager shouldnt be the main man? That a team should be picked by a committee? That the timing of subs isnt hugely crucial and you can decide how many minutes a player should get before the game starts? That you can chose positions by stats being fed into a computer? That you should rotate a squad incessantly? Brilliant, we now have people defending Vlad (not you I guess because you at least accept it was a mistake) running an SPL team based upon advice of basketball specialists You couldnt make it up. Simmer down to a frenzy ffs! You're going to explode! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seymour M Hersh Posted September 11, 2008 Share Posted September 11, 2008 No I want to debate a post presented as fact by SMH You really need to start having a bit more of an eye for detail as regards the posts on this message board No point setting hare's running if you are not properly reading what topic you are spinning When did using the phrase I was told mutate into me saying I have it as fact that...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seymour M Hersh Posted September 11, 2008 Share Posted September 11, 2008 No its called being genuinely shocked that footballing decisions were being made on the back of advice from basketball people Its called questioning how many other of the pesh decisions made in the last 3 years have been as a result of advice from people with no footballing knowledge or expertise. At any other time in the history of Hearts our fans would have been united in ridiculing decisions being made by some sort of basketball fraternity. Now because it suits peoples agendas they shrug their shoulders... And you talk about others spinning things to suit. Christ your a piece of work. I was never suggesting this was advice he was getting from say a basketball coach but financial people used to dealing with basketball contracts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seymour M Hersh Posted September 11, 2008 Share Posted September 11, 2008 I question to everyone. How many of these five year contracts were handed out? I have no idea but I only remember about 6 o7 being talked about at the time. Was the U19 squad given them on mass? I'm interested to know as clearly some people think it's akin to Hitler invading Poland in 39. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jammy T Posted September 11, 2008 Share Posted September 11, 2008 When did using the phrase I was told mutate into me saying I have it as fact that...... Because I trust you not to bull, and I am aware you have contacts It was a compliment Mr Touchy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jammy T Posted September 11, 2008 Share Posted September 11, 2008 And you talk about others spinning things to suit. Christ your a piece of work. I was never suggesting this was advice he was getting from say a basketball coach but financial people used to dealing with basketball contracts. Och, allow a little lattitude with some flowery language for goodness sake. You're taking this too seriously I think it is wrong that Vlad was taking advice from people more accustomed to basketball contracts. It seems to have been proven that that was flawed judgement - based upon your own comment Not a hugely controversial opinion As the thread developed I even agreed with Jamboinglasgow. Perfectly calm at my end. Just trying to tease out debate. Thanks for complying Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jammy T Posted September 11, 2008 Share Posted September 11, 2008 I question to everyone. How many of these five year contracts were handed out? I have no idea but I only remember about 6 o7 being talked about at the time. Was the U19 squad given them on mass? I'm interested to know as clearly some people think it's akin to Hitler invading Poland in 39. I seem to recall at least one lad who had been told he would be let go got one of these deals and couldnt believe it. I dont think anyone started gassing or shooting jews though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seymour M Hersh Posted September 11, 2008 Share Posted September 11, 2008 I seem to recall at least one lad who had been told he would be let go got one of these deals and couldnt believe it. I dont think anyone started gassing or shooting jews though. Possibly so but how many were given these gold plated NBA contracts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jammy T Posted September 11, 2008 Share Posted September 11, 2008 Possibly so but how many were given these gold plated NBA contracts? Dunno Not enough to invade a country though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frodo Jambo Posted September 11, 2008 Share Posted September 11, 2008 Basketball tactics shouldn't be used for competitive matches, but they're okay for bounce games... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mac Posted September 11, 2008 Share Posted September 11, 2008 Good one, Frodo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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