Can Edinburgh afford the trams?

[Coco]

Trams are like electric buses. The council got most of the money for the trams from the EEC as do most European cities.

 

The biggest problem Edinburgh has is the services all run underground and under the road. You can sort the roads up but some service provider will be digging it up again in six months time. If you ever pass one of these holes, have a look in and see the old pipes that have been carrying our water:43:

 

The Council could have bought thousands of electric buses - no emissions at point of use, flexibility to reflect changes in commuter demand etc - for the price of this on street train line.

 

They chose to waste the money on the on street train line because it is a visible symbol of how they have stopped global warming - just wait for pictures of the gurning councillors on the gravy tram. The idiot local Councillors are also in thrall to the mercenary workers at TIE who have been able to pull the wool over the idiot Councillors. TIE and the consultants have taken tens of millions of pounds for their incompetent design and execution of the on street train line.

 

It is not just the ?40m shortfall. The Council have the burden of all cost overruns and with the train line project years overdue the overrun will be tens if not hundreds of millions of pounds. The Council Tax in total brings in something just over ?200m pa.

 

The party most to blame are the local Conservatives for voting this ludicrous scheme through. You can expect the Labour and Liberal Democrats to be dumb enough to vote through this sort of nonsense. But the Conservatives position on the trams is beyond belief.

 

And what beggars belief is that if the line is finished - the main impact will be to increase congestion. Even TIE's own figures suggest that there will be a 1% reduction in congestion.

[southside1874]

The Council could have bought thousands of electric buses - no emissions at point of use, flexibility to reflect changes in commuter demand etc - for the price of this on street train line.

 

They chose to waste the money on the on street train line because it is a visible symbol of how they have stopped global warming - just wait for pictures of the gurning councillors on the gravy tram. The idiot local Councillors are also in thrall to the mercenary workers at TIE who have been able to pull the wool over the idiot Councillors. TIE and the consultants have taken tens of millions of pounds for their incompetent design and execution of the on street train line.

 

It is not just the ?40m shortfall. The Council have the burden of all cost overruns and with the train line project years overdue the overrun will be tens if not hundreds of millions of pounds. The Council Tax in total brings in something just over ?200m pa.

 

The party most to blame are the local Conservatives for voting this ludicrous scheme through. You can expect the Labour and Liberal Democrats to be dumb enough to vote through this sort of nonsense. But the Conservatives position on the trams is beyond belief.

 

And what beggars belief is that if the line is finished - the main impact will be to increase congestion. Even TIE's own figures suggest that there will be a 1% reduction in congestion.

 

Have you seen the electric buses???

 

Should we just wait until/hope for the technology to improve??

 

The reasons the council voted through the trams was the facts I have mentioned. Edinburgh needed to upgrade its services and the world is running out of oil.

 

I don't really care if we have trams or not. I am only trying to inform folk of some of the reasons the council pushed ahead with the scheme.

[Coco]

Have you seen the electric buses???

 

Should we just wait until/hope for the technology to improve??

 

The reasons the council voted through the trams was the facts I have mentioned. Edinburgh needed to upgrade its services and the world is running out of oil.

 

I don't really care if we have trams or not. I am only trying to inform folk of some of the reasons the council pushed ahead with the scheme.

 

That is not the reason why the Council have pushed ahead. It is because of the vanity/stupidity of Edinburgh Councillors - and the greed of TIE/consultants.

 

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/projectsandschemes/2019.aspx

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/travel/news/article6069669.ece

 

The Council could have had 3750 of those electric buses for the cost of the congestion creating tram line.

[southside1874]

That is not the reason why the Council have pushed ahead. It is because of the vanity/stupidity of Edinburgh Councillors - and the greed of TIE/consultants.

 

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/projectsandschemes/2019.aspx

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/travel/news/article6069669.ece

 

The Council could have had 3750 of those electric buses for the cost of the congestion creating tram line.

 

 

Oh so you think you expose consultants for being greedy because they think what they are doing is correct and they get to keep their jobs:10900:

 

And councillors and politicians stupid/vain.

 

Wow you really have pushed the boat out there.

 

FWIW. Some folk would prefer electric buses, with these cables hanging about everywhere, probably leading to Edinburgh loosing it World Heritage status.

OR you have some folk wanting trams.

 

The council is getting a shed load of money from the EEC to put the trams in place and no money if it wants to have electric cables running all over the place and buy electric buses.

 

Set aside what this countries Health and Safety Executive would make of it.

 

It sounds like a no brainer to me.

[Coco]

Oh so you think you expose consultants for being greedy because they think what they are doing is correct and they get to keep their jobs:10900:

 

And councillors and politicians stupid/vain.

 

Wow you really have pushed the boat out there.

 

FWIW. Some folk would prefer electric buses, with these cables hanging about everywhere, probably leading to Edinburgh loosing it World Heritage status.

OR you have some folk wanting trams.

 

The council is getting a shed load of money from the EEC to put the trams in place and no money if it wants to have electric cables running all over the place and buy electric buses.

 

Set aside what this countries Health and Safety Executive would make of it.

 

It sounds like a no brainer to me.

 

These buses don't need cables - they are not trolley buses. They are battery powered.

 

However the trams will have electric cables along the line.

[southside1874]

These buses don't need cables - they are not trolley buses. They are battery powered.

 

However the trams will have electric cables along the line.

 

Show me a link please.

 

Its of my understanding that the technology to run electric buses was not in place when the trams conception happened.

[Coco]

Show me a link please.

 

Its of my understanding that the technology to run electric buses was not in place when the trams conception happened.

 

In the Times article I quoted

They emit no air pollution but can travel only 60 miles before the twin batteries need recharging. Optare' date=' the manufacturer, is advising local authorities that drivers may need to stop en route for 15 minutes for a short recharge at high-current charging points at the roadside.

 

Boris Johnson, the Mayor of London, announced plans this week to install 25,000 charging points by 2015 to service up to 100,000 electric vehicles. A 15-minute charge would allow the bus to travel seven miles, usually enough to complete a route and return to the depot for a full recharge.[/quote']

 

Clearly the tram line is expected to use the sorts of wires you think will threaten World Heritage Status. Clearly the buses (or similar) to the ones I quoted do not require cables across the city.

 

As for the point about the 'conception' of the trams ... do you think that TIE with their hundreds of millions of pounds for 'design' could not have got somebody to ask electric bus makers if they could supply electric buses? Why continue to pour hundreds of millions of pounds down the drain for construction now - and then tens of millions of pounds of losses in operating losses in the future - now that we know that there are electric buses available which would not threaten the world heritage site?

[southside1874]

You see the problem with the 60 minutes and the 15 minutes that manufacturers advise.

 

That will be travelling at 15mph. The fact that Boris Johnson is doing it, makes me laugh.

 

It becomes more like 45minutes and 25 minutes.

 

It would seriously **** me off sitting on a bus while it recharges.

 

The powerline for the trams are underground.

 

That is my point Coco. They did look at buses. No funding from EEC for buses!!!

No buses available capable of doing the job and to my knowledge, still no buses capable of doing the job.

[Coco]

You see the problem with the 60 minutes and the 15 minutes that manufacturers advise.

 

That will be travelling at 15mph. The fact that Boris Johnson is doing it, makes me laugh.

 

It becomes more like 45minutes and 25 minutes.

 

It would seriously **** me off sitting on a bus while it recharges.

 

The powerline for the trams are underground.

 

That is my point Coco. They did look at buses. No funding from EEC for buses!!!

No buses available capable of doing the job and to my knowledge, still no buses capable of doing the job.

 

Putting the train line on the street was the objective - as it provided the most lucrative opportunity for the consultants etc. Everything else - the supposed benefits, the hapless business case, the cost, the environmental benefits, timescale etc. has all been crowbarred around that. The idiot councillors - and in particular the Conservatives - were just too stupid to realise they were being ripped off.

 

The powerlines for the trams are not going to be underground - FACT. You would not have to sit on a bus while it recharged - FACT as it could be recharged at the end of the line. The electric buses will improve in quality and speed in time - FACT. Further 3 years for them to improve before any tram is on Edinburgh's streets - FACT. The on street train line is inflexible and cannot be moved to reflect the changes in development and population (some of which have already happened as the Waterfront/Edinburgh Park/Airport expansion plans are already history) - FACT.

[southside1874]

Wasting my time here.

 

Putting the tram line on the street WAS the objective because of the ?400m handout the council was given.

 

The best arguement you put forward is that Boris of London wants to do it.

 

There are bus services that run for more than 45 minutes,therefore you would have to sit and wait for the bus to recharge.

 

Please show me a link to a bus manufacturer that has electric buses that are fit for purpose. This is almost 8 years after the tram conception and they still don't exist.

 

These huge batteries deplete after almost every charge. Where do we put the old ones.

 

Bury them??

 

The tram lines are inflexible, but the system can be added to. They have to start somewhere.

 

They are still building at the waterfront and the RBS are still at the Gyle in operation.

 

Airport expansion is still going ahead.

 

The power lines are underground. Again please show me a link to prove otherwise?

[Coco]

Wasting my time here.

 

Putting the tram line on the street WAS the objective because of the ?400m handout the council was given.

 

The best arguement you put forward is that Boris of London wants to do it.

 

There are bus services that run for more than 45 minutes,therefore you would have to sit and wait for the bus to recharge.

 

Please show me a link to a bus manufacturer that has electric buses that are fit for purpose. This is almost 8 years after the tram conception and they still don't exist.

 

These huge batteries deplete after almost every charge. Where do we put the old ones.

 

Bury them??

 

The tram lines are inflexible, but the system can be added to. They have to start somewhere.

 

They are still building at the waterfront and the RBS are still at the Gyle in operation.

 

Airport expansion is still going ahead.

 

The power lines are underground. Again please show me a link to prove otherwise?

 

Airport expansion has been cancelled. RBS are going to sack many staff/close buildings in coming years. As will other financial services companies at the Gyle. There will be no expansion of the Gyle/Edinburgh Park area. The Waterfront is delayed for at least 10 years. All of these are in the revenue/risk report as a worst case scenario which would lead to operating losses in the tens of millions of pounds each year. The business case is bust now - there is no point in worrying over the hundreds of millions of pounds wasted so far - the scheme should be stopped right now in order to prevent the hundreds of millions of pounds of future waste.

 

The Council has so far raised less than ?1m of its ?45m commitment to the line. It is responsible for all of the huge overrun in cost. What assets should the Council sell to fund the line? How many schools should it close in order to fund the line?

 

The electric buses will improve over time. TNT appear to think that electric vehicles are at least part of the way forward

http://www.smithelectricvehicles.com/casestudies_tnt.asp

 

The tram power lines are to be overhead

http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/14250/Tram-power-cable-battle-set.4616155.jp

 

PS it has been good to have this debate - good civilised stuff!

[southside1874]

Thats a truck not a bus.

 

 

Airport plans still going ahead!!

http://www.journal-online.co.uk/article/5455-baa-push-ahead-with-edinburgh-airport-expansion

 

I work for one of the developers at the waterfront and they are still building and selling.

 

Sure RBS are like many companies just now and are laying folk off. Thats not to say work will pick up.

 

And finally. I am concerned about the overhead cables. I was informed by one of the contractors that they would be underground. This is clearly not the case.

 

You can't stop a project this size once its up and running. If you are worried about ?45m on a project thats getting the funding that the city is getting, its just stupidity considering the council can sell it off when completed for 5 times that amount.

[Therapist]

The tram plan was simply a vanity project, nothing else. In order to be "green" and a "proper" capital city our political leaders decided we must have trams. Even when they were intending to build two lines it was ridiculous, particularly as we have such a good bus service. Either do trams like Amsterdam, and have them running everywhere, or don't do them at all.

 

Incidentally the person who ordered the rip-up the tram lines in the first place was guilty of a massive Beeching-like short-sighted decision.

[N User]

Even if you are pro-trams, you must find it extremely difficult to jusitfy the Edinburgh Tramline (no plural) considering

 

a) The Cost

The route is almost identical to the 22 bus which is well used and well recieved by people who use it.

[Coco]

It would seem that all of the Risks in the so called business plan for the tram line are coming to fruition.

 

Lower developer contributions and higher costs.

 

With the Council solely responsible for cost overruns and ongoing losses - expect bus fare rises, service cuts, Council cut backs on essential services, asset sales etc in order to fund this attempt to create congestion.

 

Well it appears that it is all falling into place. Schools being closed and the land sold off, pavements not being gritted, asking staff to take unpaid holidays/voluntary redundancy etc. What will the next cut back be in order to pay for the tram line?

 

http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/Edinburgh-council-to-axe-700.5985840.jp

[Big D]

I trust that the citizens of Edinburgh, at election time, will consider that the 3 main Unionists parties forced this scheme through despite the SNP, Scottish Government correctly pointing out the many flaws in the plan.

[southside1874]

I was on holiday in France this year and two of the places I visited were Nice and Bordeaux. Both have recently had trams installed and everyone I spoke with in the 2 cities were absolutely over the moon with their tram systems.

 

Maybe once all the road works and diversions are over and the rails are laid and the trams begin to run then the people of Edinburgh will be as proud of their trams as the Ni?ois and Bordeaulais are.

 

 

Exactly. Most Spanish cities have them also.

 

There are 3 things that you have to take into consideration with the trams.

 

1) The total amount banded about is not for the trams, it was to upgrade the services and the levy placed on builders was to pay for some of the services because there would be no point in them building anything with no services.

2) We are running out of oil and without oil there is no petrol or diesel to run the buses. Now I know there is an argument for electric buses but the technology is not that great at the moment and was even worse when the tram proposal was made.

3) The EU is giving funding for these projects all over europe, all we are doing is getting some of the money we pay in back.

 

If anyone has been on a tram recently, but there is no comparison to the bus as far as comfort goes. You can barely read a newspaper on a bus because of the bumpyness of the ride.

[H2]

Tram systems are great, but those pro edinburgh trams seem to miss some points:

- We are not getting a tram system we are getting a one tram line, with one route.

- There is no master plan for a tram system in Edinburgh.

- The Business case is ... what business case !

- the compartors they make to other cities are to systems, not a single route.

- The promised full package, on time to budget, now part of it cut, running late and over budget.

- The system will cost more than it makes and will be subsidesd by our, hat was, fantastic bus system.

[mac]

Making the buses free would have been the much cheaper correct way to go forward, reducing congestion etc - instead, we get one white elephant vanity tram.

[Coco]

Millions added to the cost of the tram line.

 

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/transport-environment/council-loses-crucial-trams-dispute-1.999062

 

That is millions which will either have to be found out of extra council tax or cuts to services or asset sales.

[Toxteth O'Grady]

Making the buses free would have been the much cheaper correct way to go forward, reducing congestion etc - instead, we get one white elephant vanity tram.

 

I've said that all along, If they were serious about cutting congestion by getting people to use public transport, that would have been a better and probably cheaper solution which would have benefited people in all areas of Edinburgh and not just those that live on the 22 bus route.

[Toggie88]

The Trams were doomed from the start. It was a ridiculous plan with many and better alternatives.

 

Unfortunately, some in the cooncil though just steamed roll it through.

 

The Tories were actually set to vote with the SNP and say 'no'. But Iain Whyte (who no surprise is a hibee), pressured the group into it - apparently one member of the Tory group hid outside so they couldn't say yes.

[Cabbie754]

Don't blame me I voted SNP.

 

Just remember fellow kickbackers that the SNP voted against the trams in both the council and parliament arguing that the business case didn't stack up. The Scottish government said the council would not get anymore money but Labour, Lib/dem, Tory and green councillors still voted for the trams.

 

Just remember who to blame

[championsleaguefan]

The same way they can get off trams that run down the centre of the street in a multitude of other cities around the world, including a fair number that have narrow streets like Edinburgh.

 

Hopefully when the trams finally start the number 22 route will stop getting a service every 5 seconds at the expense of other routes that don't happen to cover two shopping centres. You know places where people actually live, not work or shop.

 

LRT have destroyed the bus service in the south of Edinburgh. The old no 32 was a great service for those of us who didn't want to have to go anywhere near the centre of town and ran every 20 minutes a day from very early in the morning until late at night. LRT first split the service in two (making sure that to get to anywhere you really would want to go you would need to change bus), then they cut it down to a half hour service, now once an hour, stopping at 8 o'clock. The 11/7 was another great bus that not only covered the Morningside route into town, but the Bridges route too, so you could use to get to a wide area of town. In their wisdom LRT again decided to split a great service into two, with the 11 stopping half way to nowhere. Now they have decided to cancel the N11 meaning a night out will now cost an extra ?10+ to cover the taxi home, or a long walk from either Kaimes crossroads or the Good Companions.

 

My biggest gripe with the trams is that it comes nowhere near where I live or want to go and there for I am stuck having to use a second class service from a company that seems to think that people in Fairmilehead shouldn't be allowed to use the bus. How the feckers got another award beats me.

 

Lothian Buses are for tramps and drunks. I have tried to use the service but due to lack of buses to Fairmilehead I have now bought a car. There is no night service on week days. Lothian buses used to be a company to rely on but I think they have been side tracked by all the tram fiascos. They have dessimated the 18/ 32 service and scrapped the night service in my area. The 11 is not a bad service but it starts to late in the mornings. I think the company is run for council areas and shopping centres I bet you can get a bus to the Gyle or Ocean Terminal any time of day or night you . Lothian Buses have went from being the AC Milan of bus companies to the Hibs of their field. Rant over ps Lothian Buses are single fish fact end off.

[portobellojambo1]

Lothian buses used to be a company to rely on but I think they have been side tracked by all the tram fiascos.

 

Side tracked is possibly not the best way to describe it, decimated and being used is how I see it.

 

Virtually every single penny is being directed at this new venture, which will incorporate LRT and Edinburgh Tram Services, not their (LRT's) choice, but as a result they have had to lose routes and cut back on services provided, all to accommodate something the vast, vast majority, neither want, need or see any benefit from having (another of our glorious council's wastes of money). The services which were most likely to be hit were those that Sheriff Fatman gave an example of above, the 32, which tends to have a circular route away from the city centre (LRT will have worked on the basis of those services which turn over most money, rather than those most needed in the city outskirts, purely as they'd be expected to provide finance/reduce costs to/to prop up the tram side, whether they wanted to or not).

 

I think it is wrong to blame LRT for the present status of our transport system, this is all down to a few erseholes who came up with what they thought was a great idea (i.e. lets spend a fecking fortune on 1 tramline, and p*ss off everyone living and working in Edinburgh). No thought was given to knock ons on other parts of the council, reductions in existing services and staff, inconvenience, all they were interested in was 1 fecking un-needed tramline, which will end up costing an exorbitant amount, if ever finished.

 

At no point in any of this have the thoughts of the council tax payers come into it.

[Ribble]

I trust that the citizens of Edinburgh, at election time, will consider that the 3 main Unionists parties forced this scheme through despite the SNP, Scottish Government correctly pointing out the many flaws in the plan.

 

So we should vote SNP because they turned out blanket opposition to everything Labour wanted to do and managed to get one right? If they had the gumption and drive to say enough is enough and scrapped the scheme when they took power then they would have had a chance at getting my vote! Instead they have allowed it to continue so they can still have a go at Labour for starting the scheme!!

[Big D]

So we should vote SNP because they turned out blanket opposition to everything Labour wanted to do and managed to get one right? If they had the gumption and drive to say enough is enough and scrapped the scheme when they took power then they would have had a chance at getting my vote! Instead they have allowed it to continue so they can still have a go at Labour for starting the scheme!!

 

All I said was that you should consider the actions of the 3 main Unionist parties and make an intelligent choice based on the fundamental principals which drove their behaviour. The SNP were outvoted by a cabal of the 3 Unionist parties. A triumph of spite over sense. They were unable therefore, to stop it, but have said they will not give extra funding. If only Labour and Unionist's other white elephant at Holyrood had been subject to the ability of a credible opposition stopping London's excesses in Scotland.

[blairdin]

So we should vote SNP because they turned out blanket opposition to everything Labour wanted to do and managed to get one right? If they had the gumption and drive to say enough is enough and scrapped the scheme when they took power then they would have had a chance at getting my vote! Instead they have allowed it to continue so they can still have a go at Labour for starting the scheme!!

 

But they couldn't. By the time the SNP came into Government the Edinburgh Tram Project was a runaway train, and the only way of stopping it was a parlimentary vote - the Government had no legal right or mandate to stop it. The other parties voted against the Government.

 

Enjoy your trams...sorry, tram.

[The Mighty Thor]

Exactly. Most Spanish cities have them also.

 

There are 3 things that you have to take into consideration with the trams.

 

1) The total amount banded about is not for the trams, it was to upgrade the services and the levy placed on builders was to pay for some of the services because there would be no point in them building anything with no services.

2) We are running out of oil and without oil there is no petrol or diesel to run the buses. Now I know there is an argument for electric buses but the technology is not that great at the moment and was even worse when the tram proposal was made.

3) The EU is giving funding for these projects all over europe, all we are doing is getting some of the money we pay in back.

 

If anyone has been on a tram recently, but there is no comparison to the bus as far as comfort goes. You can barely read a newspaper on a bus because of the bumpyness of the ride.

 

Who gives two fecks what most Spanish cities have?

 

your 'points'

 

1) dress it up any way you like the cost of the trams is the cost of the trams. It is already late and over budget and will be even later and more over budget.

2) You and I will both be dead a long long time before oil runs out. In fact we'll probably be running about in personal space ships before oil runs out.

3)The money we are 'getting back' won't even touch the sides

 

Do you work in TIE's PR department?

[frankblack]

On Saturday I had to go shopping for a birthday present before the game.

 

Got a bus through Corstorphine and find Haymarket an absolute shambles again, with the most bizarre of diversions up side streets, one-way roads etc. The council should do the decent thing and resign so we, the people who live and work in the city can put people of integrity and business sense in place who will put this to bed once and for all and allow the other council services to run.

 

As others have said, its a disgrace that services such as the 32 have been decimated to the point they have become impractical because someone wants a tram to run between two shopping centres on a route that already has the best bus service in Edinburgh.

 

I've been against the trams from the word go as it was obvious that its budget was based on optimistic guesswork with no safety net. Our council services must be protected from this shambles - cutting back on bus and council services to subsidise this bust project is not acceptable.

[Big D]

To be honest. I'm in favour of a tram system, just not this one. The systems Chizzy mentions in Bordeaux and Nice, and those I've seen in other enlightened European cities show what could have been done if the aim was a transport solution. What Edinburgh got was a political project. The tram project was assumed to be ideal because the London parties thought the rail link to the airport was a shoe in. When that was exposed as another potentially, exponentially financially ruinous project and cancelled, they steamrollered the trams to save face. Has anyone actually done a cost benefit analysis on this tram line. If not, I can bring one in for about ?500k.

[Coco]

On Saturday I had to go shopping for a birthday present before the game.

 

Got a bus through Corstorphine and find Haymarket an absolute shambles again, with the most bizarre of diversions up side streets, one-way roads etc. The council should do the decent thing and resign so we, the people who live and work in the city can put people of integrity and business sense in place who will put this to bed once and for all and allow the other council services to run.

 

As others have said, its a disgrace that services such as the 32 have been decimated to the point they have become impractical because someone wants a tram to run between two shopping centres on a route that already has the best bus service in Edinburgh.

 

I've been against the trams from the word go as it was obvious that its budget was based on optimistic guesswork with no safety net. Our council services must be protected from this shambles - cutting back on bus and council services to subsidise this bust project is not acceptable.

 

Bus and council services are already being cut back. But clearly the worst is still to come.

 

The Council has failed to source the ?45m contribution it had to find due to lack of planning gain as the developments in the city have gone bust. It is soley responsible for what looks like at least a hundred million pounds cost overrun on the tram. Council tax brings in about ?200m in total per year.

 

And that is even before the ?10-20m operating loss the tram will create each year. There will be a lot more cuts to council services going forward, lots of jobs lost by Council employees, lots of public assets sold in order to cover up the mistakes by the Councillors/Council officials.

[The Mighty Thor]

Bus and council services are already being cut back. But clearly the worst is still to come.

 

The Council has failed to source the ?45m contribution it had to find due to lack of planning gain as the developments in the city have gone bust. It is soley responsible for what looks like at least a hundred million pounds cost overrun on the tram. Council tax brings in about ?200m in total per year.

 

And that is even before the ?10-20m operating loss the tram will create each year. There will be a lot more cuts to council services going forward, lots of jobs lost by Council employees, lots of public assets sold in order to cover up the mistakes by the Councillors/Council officials.

 

Coco your ?100m cost over-run is under egging it IMO. The operating loss will also be higher as this was based on 2 lines at the original route planning. Now it's effectively a shuttle between two shopping malls, Ocean Terminal and Gyle.

 

The final numbers will be scary and the council still privately hold on to the hope that the government will step in to bail them out when the over-run comes in close to ?200m!

[davemclaren]

Coco your ?100m cost over-run is under egging it IMO. The operating loss will also be higher as this was based on 2 lines at the original route planning. Now it's effectively a shuttle between two shopping malls, Ocean Terminal and Gyle.

 

The final numbers will be scary and the council still privately hold on to the hope that the government will step in to bail them out when the over-run comes in close to ?200m!

 

It does go to the airport as well.

[The Mighty Thor]

It does go to the airport as well.

 

That's why i said effectively.

 

Realistically no-one will be using it to go to the airport, not even the tourists, so you'll be left with a shuttle between two fairly poor shopping centres. For those fortunate enough to live on the route of course.

[davemclaren]

That's why i said effectively.

 

Realistically no-one will be using it to go to the airport, not even the tourists, so you'll be left with a shuttle between two fairly poor shopping centres. For those fortunate enough to live on the route of course.

 

Why will no-one use it to go to the airport?

[Mr Loverman]

Why will no-one use it to go to the airport?

 

I thought it was terminating at Gogarburn with a shuttle to the airport?

 

Do you think the space inside a tram lends itself to having lots of luggage on it?

[davemclaren]

I thought it was terminating at Gogarburn with a shuttle to the airport?

 

Do you think the space inside a tram lends itself to having lots of luggage on it?

 

It goes to the airport. I haven't seen the configuration but have used light rail from other airports without any major problems.

[The Mighty Thor]

Why will no-one use it to go to the airport?

 

For the same reason that they have been building increased parking facilities at Edinburgh Airport in the last 5 years, Because the vast majority of people using Edinburgh Airport don't live in the city centre. Are a family of 4 heading off on their hols in the summer going to drag cases all the way to the tram stop (assuming they are fortunate enough to live anywhere near one) to go to the airport? I'll answer for you. No.

[davemclaren]

For the same reason that they have been building increased parking facilities at Edinburgh Airport in the last 5 years, Because the vast majority of people using Edinburgh Airport don't live in the city centre. Are a family of 4 heading off on their hols in the summer going to drag cases all the way to the tram stop (assuming they are fortunate enough to live anywhere near one) to go to the airport? I'll answer for you. No.

 

I'd imagine the trams from the airport will get at least as many as the airport bus plus any wanting to interchange with the fife/dundee/galashiels ( ) and Glasgow trains at Gogar.

[blairdin]

I thought it was terminating at Gogarburn with a shuttle to the airport?

 

Do you think the space inside a tram lends itself to having lots of luggage on it?

 

I think you're thinking of the rail-link mate.

 

South Gyle station on the Fife/Aberdeen line is being closed and a new station built at Gogar beside the Gyle Centre and tram stop. The millions and millions of people who get the train from Fife to come over to the airport will jump from the train onto a shiny new tram to the airport there.

[david mcgee]

I'd imagine the trams from the airport will get at least as many as the airport bus plus any wanting to interchange with the fife/dundee/galashiels ( ) and Glasgow trains at Gogar.

 

Your correct.

 

It will get the people who currently use the Airport bus.

 

Providing it is priced the same.

 

Is five years disruption and ?600 million quid and rising, value for money when there is a profitable and very good airport bus service in existence?

[The Mighty Thor]

I'd imagine the trams from the airport will get at least as many as the airport bus plus any wanting to interchange with the fife/dundee/galashiels ( ) and Glasgow trains at Gogar.

 

My apologies.

 

I'd forgotten that it was in fact an 'integrated transport solution' and not just a three quarters of a billion pound shoppers shuttle.

 

You'll be telling me next that it'll reduce congestion?

[davemclaren]

My apologies.

 

I'd forgotten that it was in fact an 'integrated transport solution' and not just a three quarters of a billion pound shoppers shuttle.

 

You'll be telling me next that it'll reduce congestion?

 

That's the plan I believe.

[The Mighty Thor]

That's the plan I believe.

 

I'm glad there is at least some kind of thought process behind it. It'd be a criminal waste of public money if it was just a very expensive and badly researched vanity project.

I mean how many trees have been lost to make manilla envelopes for the consultants/councillors/contractors?

[Big D]

Has there been a cost analysis of this line? There has been a lot of political gum flapping in my part of Scotland that millions of our tax ?s aren't being wasted on a pointless rail extension to Glasgow airport. Strategic links should be underwritten where a long term profit can be justified. Vanity, political projects should always be stopped.

[Sheriff Fatman]

For the same reason that they have been building increased parking facilities at Edinburgh Airport in the last 5 years, Because the vast majority of people using Edinburgh Airport don't live in the city centre. Are a family of 4 heading off on their hols in the summer going to drag cases all the way to the tram stop (assuming they are fortunate enough to live anywhere near one) to go to the airport? I'll answer for you. No.

 

But then as the vast majority of flights into and out of Edinburgh Airport are not package tour flights but scheduled flights, and the vast majority of passengers are not families off on holiday, your family of four will be hugely in the minority.

[david mcgee]

Has there been a cost analysis of this line? There has been a lot of political gum flapping in my part of Scotland that millions of our tax ?s aren't being wasted on a pointless rail extension to Glasgow airport. Strategic links should be underwritten where a long term profit can be justified. Vanity, political projects should always be stopped.

 

You would be cheaper moving the City centre to the airport than you would be building this folly.

[Big D]

You would be cheaper moving the City centre to the airport than you would be building this folly.

 

To emphasise how political the Glasgow airport fiasco is. The airport is not within the fiefdom of Glasgow Council. They do not have to suffer the financial losses this political vanity project will undoubtedly incur. I live in Glasgow. I get a taxi to the airport. Because I understand the cost of time. Taxi, 15 mins ?15. Train (or bus), bus, bus. 90 mins, ?8. The rail link may reduce the cost by a few quid and the time by 10 mins but is still a poor option. I'm sure Edinburgh would show similar figures. The Edinburgh trams are on the wrong lines, and that is the fault of Unionist politicians. Their compatriots are trying to bankrupt Glasgow and Renfrewshire with a similarly unthought project.

[mac]

To emphasise how political the Glasgow airport fiasco is. The airport is not within the fiefdom of Glasgow Council. They do not have to suffer the financial losses this political vanity project will undoubtedly incur. I live in Glasgow. I get a taxi to the airport. Because I understand the cost of time. Taxi, 15 mins ?15. Train (or bus), bus, bus. 90 mins, ?8. The rail link may reduce the cost by a few quid and the time by 10 mins but is still a poor option. I'm sure Edinburgh would show similar figures. The Edinburgh trams are on the wrong lines, and that is the fault of Unionist politicians. Their compatriots are trying to bankrupt Glasgow and Renfrewshire with a similarly unthought project.

 

Big D, I'm now thinking maybe that was the idea from the start, meaning that if the Scots decide to try to become independent, they would be handcuffed to a vanity project they would be forced to see through, courtesy of the unionistas - this means that Scots will vote to maintain the status quo - wow, they really are screwing us before we can stand on their own two feet, with one hand (leg) tied behind our back - although I'm on the fence, when I hear that the SNP were against this from the start and it was forced through by the majority unionist parties, it does make you think...

 

Who exactly has Scotland's best interests at heart? I don't believe this project is good for Scotland, or Edinburgh, at all.