If Oda or Forrest played for St Johnstone, Motherwell etc...

[DC_92]

 

4 hours ago, Boris5115 said:

Vargas is miles better than Oda and Forrest. I'd like to see both the latter named binned. 

 

Is he? Vargas has played over 500 more Premiership minutes than Oda but has an identical number of goals and only one more assist.

[HeartsandonlyHearts]

4 hours ago, Nelly Terraces said:

I wish they did play for 1 of those clubs. Bog standard at best. Forrest is a headless chicken, Oda & Vargas blow literally every opening & chance we create & a guy like Grant has 1 good game & thinks he’s Lionel Messi.

 

Sooner folk wake up & realise these types of guys aren’t good enough the better it’ll be for everyone concerned. Living in denial is very counterproductive.

Maybe you could send over a list of potential signings to Naismith for January. Not bog standard but better and also within our wage structure. Can’t wait to see the list. Should be a very interesting who’s who of top class footballers.

[i wish jj was my dad]

6 hours ago, Tour22 said:

Unpopular opinion, but Forrest has been excellent for us in the past and an integral part of some wins over the last couple of seasons. It wouldn't have been as bad a result on Saturday if he started. Always gives 100%.

I agree. I don't get the hate and near obsessive criticism of f a decent squad player. Has to be someone I suppose. 

[Boris5115]

7 hours ago, DC_92 said:

 

 

Is he? Vargas has played over 500 more Premiership minutes than Oda but has an identical number of goals and only one more assist.

I believe Vargas has a lot more potential than Oda. Lots to work on would agree. 

[chaswasjambotillend]

Forrest was good at livvy as a winger not a wing back or sub or wherever we play him that week. Oda has showed in games when starts can be decent and scored some good goals but seems lost coming off bench. What is it with japanese players. Also one thing I have noticed is that the levein blueprint still runs through club. From neilson cathro to naisy the 2 in midfield the wingers becoming wing backs or full backs becoming wingers  the 1 up top the attacking midfielders brought in and becoming deep lying or left on bench. Seems to be in club dna the way we play. 

[Penrices left boot]

8 hours ago, DC_92 said:

 

 

Is he? Vargas has played over 500 more Premiership minutes than Oda but has an identical number of goals and only one more assist.

 

Agreed.

 

Vargas is very raw.

Should be mostly a impact sub atm for me.

 

Vargas gets a break from the simple minded folk as once a game he'll run past a player and hit a shot, it's all those types remember. 

They won't remember the multiple poor decisions and giving the ball away.

 

Vargas does have a bit of pace and unpredictability,  but for me more if a impact sub atm as his decision making and hold up play can put the team under pressure.

His pace and directness is also better v tiring defenders.

 

 

[Penrices left boot]

58 minutes ago, colinmorewasgash said:

Forrest was good at livvy as a winger not a wing back or sub or wherever we play him that week. Oda has showed in games when starts can be decent and scored some good goals but seems lost coming off bench. What is it with japanese players. Also one thing I have noticed is that the levein blueprint still runs through club. From neilson cathro to naisy the 2 in midfield the wingers becoming wing backs or full backs becoming wingers  the 1 up top the attacking midfielders brought in and becoming deep lying or left on bench. Seems to be in club dna the way we play. 

 

"Levein blueprint".....😭😭😭

[jamboozy]

12 hours ago, Bob Loblaw said:

The laying into our own players is really starting to wear thin. They are squad players who have contributed to us finishing 3rd and making 2 semis and always give 100%. 

 

Singling folk out in the manner that's happened since Saturday is pish poor IMO.

Well said Bob. 

[Shooter McGavin]

One a scale from 1 to 10, how well do you think this thread has gone, mate? @hoof.hearted

[Ari Gold]

We needed a better winger than what we had and we signed Musa.

 

Musa might turn out to be a good signing and I don't really have an issue with these type of signings but I'd have liked one thats seen as a first choice winger plus Musa. If that meant moving on Forrest, Oda or McKay then so be it. 

[Ari Gold]

1 hour ago, Bazzas right boot said:

 

Agreed.

 

Vargas is very raw.

Should be mostly a impact sub atm for me.

 

Vargas gets a break from the simple minded folk as once a game he'll run past a player and hit a shot, it's all those types remember. 

They won't remember the multiple poor decisions and giving the ball away.

 

Vargas does have a bit of pace and unpredictability,  but for me more if a impact sub atm as his decision making and hold up play can put the team under pressure.

His pace and directness is also better v tiring defenders.

 

 

Think that's harsh on Vargas Bazza.

 

No goals or assists against rangers but he caused them a lot of problems. Decision making can clearly improve. 

 

Vargas has more to his game than Oda and looks to have a much higher ceiling in terms of improving 

[colinmaroon]

14 hours ago, Bob Loblaw said:

The laying into our own players is really starting to wear thin. They are squad players who have contributed to us finishing 3rd and making 2 semis and always give 100%. 

 

Singling folk out in the manner that's happened since Saturday is pish poor IMO.

 

And remember it's not always easy to say these guys are Hearts supporters.  AI is making the news but RU has been on here since Kickback started.  (RU = REAL-unintelligence).

 

 

[Carter]

14 hours ago, Nelly Terraces said:

I wish they did play for 1 of those clubs. Bog standard at best. Forrest is a headless chicken, Oda & Vargas blow literally every opening & chance we create & a guy like Grant has 1 good game & thinks he’s Lionel Messi.

 

Sooner folk wake up & realise these types of guys aren’t good enough the better it’ll be for everyone concerned. Living in denial is very counterproductive.

I very much suspect we're paying some of these guys pretty handsomely too. I'd wager that's why Jorge Grant is still here. Salary will be well beyond what any interested party would be willing to pay. Wage bill has increased substantially in the past 2 years and it's open to question whether we're getting value for money in some areas. 

 

I still feel we've got a number of players in the current squad who we could almost certainly improved upon within the budget we've got. A number will be on money that teams of the level who'd be interested couldn't pay. That's not an entirely great place to be. I wonder if that's perhaps been a point of contention in any appraisal of the performance of Joe Savage. 

[A_A wehatethehibs]

10 hours ago, DC_92 said:

 

 

Is he? Vargas has played over 500 more Premiership minutes than Oda but has an identical number of goals and only one more assist.

Find it interesting when folk look at a players time as an entire whole block like that, rather than a continuum. You completely ignored the actual picture of what the players did last season.
 

Vargas did nothing for his first 10-15 appearances, then really started to improve massively and was one of our best players. So the “minutes” aren’t looked at as an entire block like you have. He went on a journey of improvement. Oda on the other hand, has not had a similar journey. He’s just been inconsistent. 
 

Yours is a classic example of skewing stats to try to back up a completely incorrect point. Vargas by the end of last season was absolutely streets ahead of Oda 

[DC_92]

3 minutes ago, A_A wehatethehibs said:

Find it interesting when folk look at a players time as an entire whole block like that, rather than a continuum. You completely ignored the actual picture of what the players did last season.
 

Vargas did nothing for his first 10-15 appearances, then really started to improve massively and was one of our best players. So the “minutes” aren’t looked at as an entire block like you have. He went on a journey of improvement. Oda on the other hand, has not had a similar journey. He’s just been inconsistent. 
 

Yours is a classic example of skewing stats to try to back up a completely incorrect point. Vargas by the end of last season was absolutely streets ahead of Oda 

 

Last 500 minutes of Premiership football:

Oda: 3 goals, 1 assist

Vargas: 1 goal, 1 assist

 

Last 1000 minutes of Premiership football:

Oda: 5 goals, 1 assist

Vargas: 3 goals, 1 assist

 

Odd scored his first goal on his 12th league appearance. Vargas scored his first goal on his 10th league appearance.

 

Yours is a classic example of attacking "skewed" stats without checking whether the "unskewed" stats actually back up your point.

[boag1874]

What is wrong with this place  

 

Forrest is a solid squad option who did very well for us at points last year, most were happy to see him extend because he earned it.

Oda just turned 23 yesterday, has bags of potential and despite inconsistency (completely par for the course with a young winger) he's still made an impact on numerous occasions.

 

Get a grip, it was a bad day at the office & those 2 were hardly the prime culprits.

[busbyfth]

53 minutes ago, Carter said:

I very much suspect we're paying some of these guys pretty handsomely too. I'd wager that's why Jorge Grant is still here. Salary will be well beyond what any interested party would be willing to pay. Wage bill has increased substantially in the past 2 years and it's open to question whether we're getting value for money in some areas. 

 

I still feel we've got a number of players in the current squad who we could almost certainly improved upon within the budget we've got. A number will be on money that teams of the level who'd be interested couldn't pay. That's not an entirely great place to be. I wonder if that's perhaps been a point of contention in any appraisal of the performance of Joe Savage. 

Grant being in the team baffles me 

[busbyfth]

23 minutes ago, DC_92 said:

 

Last 500 minutes of Premiership football:

Oda: 3 goals, 1 assist

Vargas: 1 goal, 1 assist

 

Last 1000 minutes of Premiership football:

Oda: 5 goals, 1 assist

Vargas: 3 goals, 1 assist

 

Odd scored his first goal on his 12th league appearance. Vargas scored his first goal on his 10th league appearance.

 

Yours is a classic example of attacking "skewed" stats without checking whether the "unskewed" stats actually back up your point.

Oda needs a run of consecutive matches to show what hes really got. (I still reckon theres a good player there) Players coming from foreign climes need time to adapt to our style of football, but few are allowed this "luxury" as our squads got so many toys to play with so consecutive game runs are few and far between for the non-established players . (never mind having so many players - we seemingly also have many formats to try out too.....as mentioned by Saturdays opposing manager, who also implied that SN's juggling with formats baffled him)  

[wavydavy]

15 hours ago, Nelly Terraces said:

I wish they did play for 1 of those clubs. Bog standard at best. Forrest is a headless chicken, Oda & Vargas blow literally every opening & chance we create & a guy like Grant has 1 good game & thinks he’s Lionel Messi.

 

Sooner folk wake up & realise these types of guys aren’t good enough the better it’ll be for everyone concerned. Living in denial is very counterproductive.

 

I think you could safely add that they are all bottlers as well when it comes to putting their bodies on the line especially Oda and Forrest.

[Pasquale for King]

11 hours ago, DC_92 said:

 

 

Is he? Vargas has played over 500 more Premiership minutes than Oda but has an identical number of goals and only one more assist.

Fair point, both young and need to improve this season.

[Pasquale for King]

4 hours ago, colinmorewasgash said:

Forrest was good at livvy as a winger not a wing back or sub or wherever we play him that week. Oda has showed in games when starts can be decent and scored some good goals but seems lost coming off bench. What is it with japanese players. Also one thing I have noticed is that the levein blueprint still runs through club. From neilson cathro to naisy the 2 in midfield the wingers becoming wing backs or full backs becoming wingers  the 1 up top the attacking midfielders brought in and becoming deep lying or left on bench. Seems to be in club dna the way we play. 

I think Japanese players like to run onto through balls in behind passed on the ground, more how Postecoglou played with Hatate/Maeda/Kyogo, rather than fighting with CHs or high long balls to chase, they struggle physically too. 
Forrest has no real end product and no awareness as he plays with his head down, we need better. 
Yes unfortunately there are a few too many similarities between CL/RN/SN.

[Pasquale for King]

1 hour ago, DC_92 said:

 

Last 500 minutes of Premiership football:

Oda: 3 goals, 1 assist

Vargas: 1 goal, 1 assist

 

Last 1000 minutes of Premiership football:

Oda: 5 goals, 1 assist

Vargas: 3 goals, 1 assist

 

Odd scored his first goal on his 12th league appearance. Vargas scored his first goal on his 10th league appearance.

 

Yours is a classic example of attacking "skewed" stats without checking whether the "unskewed" stats actually back up your point.

😆👍🏽👏🏾

[Carter]

28 minutes ago, busbyfth said:

Oda needs a run of consecutive matches to show what hes really got. (I still reckon theres a good player there) Players coming from foreign climes need time to adapt to our style of football, but few are allowed this "luxury" as our squads got so many toys to play with so consecutive game runs are few and far between for the non-established players . (never mind having so many players - we seemingly also have many formats to try out too.....as mentioned by Saturdays opposing manager, who also implied that SN's juggling with formats baffled him)  

I think you've probably got to conclude there's a reason why Oda hasn't had many mins. Similar in some ways to Tagawa. We've made our moves into the Japanese market after the success Celtic had. You'd be hard pressed to make a case that it's been a success for us. 

 

Vargas impressed me on opening day with his work rate. He gave Rangers back 4 a tough time. There is undeniably a need to improve on tangible output in his case and that of Oda. In the case of Oda I wouldn't be surprised to see him sold this month. The numbers just don't lie unfortunately. I find it hard to visualise a scenario where he becomes a regular and nets us a big fee. Not sure we have many who will achieve big fees as things stand. Something that possibly irritates the Board a little. 

[colinmaroon]

1 hour ago, Carter said:

I very much suspect we're paying some of these guys pretty handsomely too. I'd wager that's why Jorge Grant is still here. Salary will be well beyond what any interested party would be willing to pay. Wage bill has increased substantially in the past 2 years and it's open to question whether we're getting value for money in some areas. 

 

I still feel we've got a number of players in the current squad who we could almost certainly improved upon within the budget we've got. A number will be on money that teams of the level who'd be interested couldn't pay. That's not an entirely great place to be. I wonder if that's perhaps been a point of contention in any appraisal of the performance of Joe Savage. 

 

As far as Grant is concerned his salary won't be any higher than League 1.

 

 

[Carter]

35 minutes ago, colinmaroon said:

 

As far as Grant is concerned his salary won't be any higher than League 1.

 

 

That could quite comfortably be iro £5K pw 

[gorgieheart]

17 hours ago, hoof.hearted said:

... there's not a hope in hell any of us would be clambering for us to sign them, even as bench warmers. 

Forrest had an air shot at the ball last Saturday against Rangers, ffs that's my level and ah couldn't kick my own @rse. Wouldn't mind so much but he did exactly the same thing at the end of last season. 

maybe we should just bin the lot and go follow Man City  ? 

 

[Smithian]

19 hours ago, hoof.hearted said:

... there's not a hope in hell any of us would be clambering for us to sign them, even as bench warmers. 

Forrest had an air shot at the ball last Saturday against Rangers, ffs that's my level and ah couldn't kick my own @rse. Wouldn't mind so much but he did exactly the same thing at the end of last season. 

Oda and Forrest are talented but limited players. Really the ideal type of guys if you're goal is to consolidate third and to have depth to compete across multiple competitions -- as Hearts did last season with them and hope to again do with them.

 

 

[Smithian]

16 hours ago, Sherbet said:

When oda first arrived he would take the full back  on the outside and make for the bye line  now when he gets the .ball.he tends to cut inside

He used to play in front of Nathaniel Atkinson and Michael Smith. Since then, he is playing more in front of Lembikisa and now Gerald Taylor. 

 

I remember reading an interview with Atkinson least season where he said he was being told by Naismith he was to be used more an inverted fullback. That isn't how we saw Lemby and now Taylor being used.

[hoof.hearted]

12 hours ago, Shooter McGavin said:

One a scale from 1 to 10, how well do you think this thread has gone, mate? @hoof.hearted

About 9...or 1, depends on what you expect. Don't really give a @#*# tbh. It's not reactionary after Saturday as I've been saying it for months. I like any player who wears our top and will never and never have booed a hearts player, but if we want to go to the next level, or even continue at this level, we need better back up. 

[hoof.hearted]

7 hours ago, gorgieheart said:

maybe we should just bin the lot and go follow Man City  ? 

 

Fire on. 

[JayTeeJnr]

12 hours ago, Bazzas right boot said:

 

"Levein blueprint".....😭😭😭

Given the absolute garbage you fill this forum with, it’s ironic that you think you’re in a position to mock others for their opinion 😂😂😂

[Jacques de Gatineau]

Out of the established outfield players, I'd only be looking at bringing in Kent, Kingsley, Baningime, Devlin, Vargas, and Shankland if they played for other teams in the league. The right mixture of ability and determination in all of them. The rest of our outfield squad lack a bit of dig or talent, IMO; certainly on a reasonably consistent basis.

 

Jury obviously out on the summer additions, obviously.

[Nessjambo67]

On 12/08/2024 at 21:01, Voice of reason said:

What about when Forrest scored a 25 yarder into the top corner against Hibs last season? Is that your level as well? Both players are talented but, like most wingers, are very inconsistent.

You make a fair point tbf I’m not a Forrest fan far to inconsistent for me but maybe an impact player or squad player Hearts gonna be the biggest club he ever plays for 

[We_are_the_Hearts]

Forrest will never be a flashy player but away from home he can be more effective than some who seem to disappear at times.

[BackOfTheNet]

20 hours ago, DC_92 said:

 

Last 500 minutes of Premiership football:

Oda: 3 goals, 1 assist

Vargas: 1 goal, 1 assist

 

Last 1000 minutes of Premiership football:

Oda: 5 goals, 1 assist

Vargas: 3 goals, 1 assist

 

Odd scored his first goal on his 12th league appearance. Vargas scored his first goal on his 10th league appearance.

 

Yours is a classic example of attacking "skewed" stats without checking whether the "unskewed" stats actually back up your point.

Said it in another thread, you can have your own opinions but you can’t have your own facts. Someone talked about Oda having a decent strike rate and was scoffed at, I point out that last season in the league he played 990 minutes, equivalent of 11 games, and scored 5 goals. That’s an average of a goal every 2.2 games. Did anyone go “huh, didn’t realise that, must have been mistaken…” Nope. They double down and say he’s not good enough and we need rid. Just no talking to some people.

 

EDIT: Just noticed a post above - “the numbers don’t lie”, well yeah, they support that Oda has been a good player for us. Yet somehow that statement was used as an argument to punt him this month…

Edited August 14, 2024 by BackOfTheNet

[Debut 4]

Stats stats glorious stats.  
 

Some players play because of their character, industry and mentality.  
 

Vargas starts because he’s got a lot of the basics.  That’s not a stick to beat Oda with whom I actually like when he’s on top of his game….but that’s the point.  
 

Vargas plays because he’s got a strong mentality.  

[4marsbars]

On 12/08/2024 at 20:23, Bob Loblaw said:

The laying into our own players is really starting to wear thin. They are squad players who have contributed to us finishing 3rd and making 2 semis and always give 100%. 

 

Singling folk out in the manner that's happened since Saturday is pish poor IMO.

Entirely agree.

 

If I was a player, reading Kickback (I sincerely hope they know not to) would be the ultimate de-motivator. 

 

Let's get right behind the team.

 

(Forrest was SPFL POTM in January)

Edited August 14, 2024 by 4marsbars

[RustyRightPeg]

Is this thread still going 😂

[DC_92]

31 minutes ago, Debut 4 said:

Stats stats glorious stats.  
 

Some players play because of their character, industry and mentality.  
 

Vargas starts because he’s got a lot of the basics.  That’s not a stick to beat Oda with whom I actually like when he’s on top of his game….but that’s the point.  
 

Vargas plays because he’s got a strong mentality.  

 

But ultimately not a stronger end product yet, which is why I questioned the idea that he's "miles better" rather than questioning why he starts.

 

Vargas has more of the attributes required to play through the middle which makes him more adaptable. Both can be threatening running in behind but I'm not sure Vargas' decision making is better than Oda's in this situation and I'd probably favour the latter in to bury a chance on the available evidence.

 

I do think Vargas has a better chance of making it but he's still got a lot of improving to do before I'd consider him miles better. 

[BackOfTheNet]

2 hours ago, Debut 4 said:

Stats stats glorious stats.  
 

Some players play because of their character, industry and mentality.  
 

Vargas starts because he’s got a lot of the basics.  That’s not a stick to beat Oda with whom I actually like when he’s on top of his game….but that’s the point.  
 

Vargas plays because he’s got a strong mentality.  

Strong mentality? What does that even mean?

[ford donald]

22 hours ago, boag1874 said:

What is wrong with this place  

 

Forrest is a solid squad option who did very well for us at points last year, most were happy to see him extend because he earned it.

Oda just turned 23 yesterday, has bags of potential and despite inconsistency (completely par for the course with a young winger) he's still made an impact on numerous occasions.

 

Get a grip, it was a bad day at the office & those 2 were hardly the prime culprits.

 

I would def keep Forrest,good squad player.

[Debut 4]

1 hour ago, BackOfTheNet said:

Strong mentality? What does that even mean?

You can tell by his playing style. I never sat him down and did an assessment 😂

 

Never say die attitude says to me he’s got a good mentality for the football pitch.  

[Debut 4]

1 hour ago, DC_92 said:

 

But ultimately not a stronger end product yet, which is why I questioned the idea that he's "miles better" rather than questioning why he starts.

 

Vargas has more of the attributes required to play through the middle which makes him more adaptable. Both can be threatening running in behind but I'm not sure Vargas' decision making is better than Oda's in this situation and I'd probably favour the latter in to bury a chance on the available evidence.

 

I do think Vargas has a better chance of making it but he's still got a lot of improving to do before I'd consider him miles better. 

Agree and which is more likely the reason Vargas starts because he’s the natural pick to work with Shankland.  
 

As I’ve said, it’s a not a stick to beat Oda with.  I like Oda. I’ve said it many times.  His season was stuttery last year because of injury but when he’s on it he’s a threat and a decent finisher.  
 

Vargas and Oda are different positionally and by style. However,  I think both can play their part this season but I do edge Vargas slightly because I think he’s more consistent in his focus and contribution. 
 

Again though, does it make sense to compare?   Oda needs to make a wide berth his own but that also comes down to how the manager wants to set up. I think he’s potentially our best winger as a package.  
 

 

 

[BerraBelieveit]

Blair Spittal played nearly 4,000 minutes last season for Motherwell and totalled 13 goals and 11 assists. 

 

At no point when at United, Thistle & County did I think he would improve our team. 

 

He had a brilliant season and is worth a punt, I agree with the signing. Do I think he'll get them numbers for Hearts, not a chance. 

 

If Oda or Forrest played for St Johnstone, Motherwell etc... I'd expect they could have a similar season to Spittal last season and therefore I'd expect us to also take a punt. 

 

Forrest is the most underrated and under appreciated member of our squad, by quite a margin. Always put in a shift, can stretch a game and has goals in him. 

 

Oda, his development has stalled but I still expect him to contribute quite a bit to our season with goals/assists. 

[DixieNormous]

On 12/08/2024 at 20:35, Taffin said:

And yet people were delighted we picked up Spittal, Dhanda and Penrice 🤷🏻‍♂️

still delighted

[spacerjoe]

On 13/08/2024 at 10:56, Carter said:

I very much suspect we're paying some of these guys pretty handsomely too. I'd wager that's why Jorge Grant is still here. Salary will be well beyond what any interested party would be willing to pay. Wage bill has increased substantially in the past 2 years and it's open to question whether we're getting value for money in some areas. 

 

I still feel we've got a number of players in the current squad who we could almost certainly improved upon within the budget we've got. A number will be on money that teams of the level who'd be interested couldn't pay. That's not an entirely great place to be. I wonder if that's perhaps been a point of contention in any appraisal of the performance of Joe Savage. 

Jorge Grant is here as he's a decent squad player.

 

I very much doubt he's on any kind of big wage at all.

 

When Beni and Hoff are fit he doesn't get a look in. Beni, Hoff, Devlin and, I'd expect, Boateng are ahead of him.

 

But they are injured, so right now I don't think we can release him.

 

To be fair to Jorge also, he had a great game v Rangers and deserved to keep his place. The change of formation more than anything was our downfall against Dundee, in my mind.

 

[Star Lizard]

I think Oda is a very good player who will get better with the right training and a bit more game time and experience . I dont want to dig out individual players though , so I am just going to express my opinion that Forrest would be the best player at a club like St Johnstone and he would probably prefer the amount of game time too

[Star Lizard]

Regarding Grant ( as he is being discussed heavily ) , I think he is a player who sometimes plays at a level that makes him more than good enough for us , but the rest of the time he is not really good enough 

[BackOfTheNet]

1 hour ago, Debut 4 said:

You can tell by his playing style. I never sat him down and did an assessment 😂

 

Never say die attitude says to me he’s got a good mentality for the football pitch.  

Aye, but we’ve had plenty players in the past like that who have been pish. And plenty players who look like they can’t be arsed but are immense (like Skacel). 
 

I really rate Vargas, but just because he runs like Ronaldo doesn’t mean he cares more than other players. I actually think Oda gives his all out on the pitch and is decent defensive cover with his pace too.

[Section Q]

Players go off the boil......fact.

Add Barry McKay to the list.