Updated Boeing documentary

[JFK-1]

I wonder how Boeing can ever recover from all this, growing up I considered them to be like the NASA of the skies and an untouchable most prestigious leader in large passenger aircraft. But Airbus were already catching up on them before the Max disaster all while Boeing have a string of catastrophic malfunctions.

 

While Airbus planes are proving to be reliable even in an emergency that was nothing to do with the plane. It was an Airbus that landed on the Hudson river after a bird strike all passengers evacuated, and the recent Japan incident when they were hit by another plane, all evacuated despite a devastating fire.

 

Boeing never had a competitor before Airbus and that appears to have affected their corporate culture regarding safety. I don't read any conspiracy into the recent suicide of a Boeing employee involved in the investigation, there are probably people who made questionable decisions knowing it was a questionable decision, but taking the chance it wouldn't end in a disaster. Then when it did maybe feelings of guilt for being instrumental in killing hundreds of people.

 

Even if there were no further incidents with Boeing aircraft there will be a public perception of Boeing being dodgy for probably at least a decade to come in which at this stage I would expect Airbus to become the dominant player in large passenger aircraft.

 

Boeing's Troubled 737 Max Plane | “Boeing’s Fatal Flaw" Update (full documentary) | FRONTLINE

 

As new questions arise about Boeing’s troubled 737 Max jet, FRONTLINE and The New York Times update an award-winning investigation into the design, oversight and production of a plane that was involved in two crashes that killed 346 people.

 

 

 

 

 

   

[Watt-Zeefuik]

I haven't watched the documentary, but the rumors I hear third hand are that when Boeing bought McDonnell Douglas, it was MD's corporate culture that won out and the rigid adherence to engineering standards that had marked Boeing's reputation slowly got eaten away.

 

I agree, I don't know how they recover. The sheer amount of corporate value set on fire in pursuit of minor cost cutting is mind-blowing.

[Statts1976uk]

It's not just fixed wing we are seeing a degradation of service, in the rotary world we are seeing issues with spares and quality of spares. The four major companies ramped down during the pandemic and lowering of demand and finding it difficult to get back up.

 

I was at HAI HeliExpo in LA a couple of weeks ago and this was the major topic on everyone's lips. Sikorsky were telling us of their supply woes, their S92 support has probably been saved by the order from the President's fleet. Their owners, Lockheed Martin, are not particularly interested in civil helicopters as they only make up a small percentage of their business and act accordingly with funding.

[JFK-1]

Boeing plane lands missing panel in Oregon. The plane landed missing an external panel that went unnoticed in flight.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-68584134

[JFK-1]

On 14/03/2024 at 20:32, Watt-Zeefuik said:

I haven't watched the documentary, but the rumors I hear third hand are that when Boeing bought McDonnell Douglas, it was MD's corporate culture that won out and the rigid adherence to engineering standards that had marked Boeing's reputation slowly got eaten away.

 

I agree, I don't know how they recover. The sheer amount of corporate value set on fire in pursuit of minor cost cutting is mind-blowing.

 

The deal with the FAA allowing Boeing to pretty much regulate themselves across a wide range of issues is disturbing.

 

Apparently this began with good and credible intentions, at first they had to create paperwork just to move a towel rack or something. It began by allowing them to handle small things like that, and over time became much more. Till here we are.

 

It could be the case I suppose that they were fine regulating themselves till this McDonnell Douglas deal. But clearly not now and not they nor anybody else should be self regulating in such an industry. 

[JFK-1]

Video set to begin just before footage from inside the Alaska airlines flight after the panel blew out at 16,000 feet, if they had been higher this would have been disastrous.

 

A big hole appeared in the plane at row 26, the cockpit cockpit door opened, a pilots headset was sucked from his head and out through the hole, a small boy came close to being sucked out. And panels continue to fall off Boeing planes.

 

 

[shaun.lawson]

On 14/03/2024 at 22:32, Watt-Zeefuik said:

I haven't watched the documentary, but the rumors I hear third hand are that when Boeing bought McDonnell Douglas, it was MD's corporate culture that won out and the rigid adherence to engineering standards that had marked Boeing's reputation slowly got eaten away.

 

I agree, I don't know how they recover. The sheer amount of corporate value set on fire in pursuit of minor cost cutting is mind-blowing.

 

I agree (McDonnell Douglas' DC might as well have been short for 'Death Coffin') - but also think it's mistaken to think there was some golden age when Boeing did everything right. They didn't. Aviation history is littered with Boeing blunders, Boeing arrogance and Boeing neglect.

 

When the National Transportation Safety Board (whose record really is excellent, and have always been staffed by brilliant people) realised that TWA 800 had been brought down by an explosion in the central fuel tank, Boeing flat out denied it was even possible - despite the same thing having happened to a plane in the Philippines. Did they do any tests of their own? No. They had to be dragged kicking and screaming into accepting what had happened - not to mention the unbelievable state of the wiring on so many ageing 747s. (That these were still flying twice a day 25 years after being built said it all really).

 

See also, NASA. Whose management's negligence, arrogance and wanton ignorance of the actual experts - the engineers - directly caused both the Challenger and Columbia disasters. There was no cultural change following the first disaster, making the second all but inevitable.

 

What did NASA then and Boeing then and now have in common? Rather like the banks in 2008, both were too big to be allowed to fail. Both, in fact, were huge extensions of American soft power. So investigations into disasters always started with the premise not of holding individuals properly to account - but of protecting the industry by 'learning the lessons' of horrific 'accidents' which, very often, were entirely foreseeable: so much so, that they'd been repeatedly warned by those who knew what they were talking about.

 

And what they also had in common was that American soft power was so globally successful, both enjoyed unwarranted fantastic reputations. Even now, people act as though the aviation industry has this incredible safety record - when in fact, corners have always been cut, the emphasis has always been on profit, and there's even been a direct calculation made on how much a passenger's life is worth when set against the investment needed to fix known problems. Cost-benefit analyses have genuinely taken an approach of "one disaster every x number of years is worth it compared with how much we'd need to spend to stop that disaster from ever happening".

 

Boeing's is a typical story of modern capitalism. No proper regulation, disgusting levels of nepotism and corruption, grotesque emphasis on shareholder profit at the expense of safety, and those who work the hardest - the engineers - treated and paid the worst, while pilots have been left to fend for themselves. And in the case of MCAS, weren't even told of its existence, let alone trained for what to do if it misbehaved.

 

As the documentary (which is excellent) pointed out, while the EU, UK, Australia and New Zealand grounded the 747-MAX pretty sharpish, the US didn't! The FAA is part of the US government... and the FAA and Boeing have become as good as interchangeable. Even now, I still think Boeing is too big to fail; in other words, the right lessons still won't be learned, and the 'accidents' will continue, as the disgusting leaders get away scot free. 

 

Airbus' record is very far from perfect and no aeroplane will ever be 100% safe. Every time anyone boards a plane, they're taking a risk: computer systems can fail, weather can cause chaos, and humans - whether on board or in air traffic control - will always make mistakes. Sometimes, fatal ones. You're a lot less likely to escape a plane crash than a train or bus one. But Airbus are infinitely preferable to Boeing now. They've gone further in removing human error from the equation than anyone believed was possible (but - see Air France 447 - it's impossible to completely remove it), and their priorities seem mostly to be in the right place.

 

If it's Boeing, I ain't going.

[shaun.lawson]

1 hour ago, JFK-1 said:

Video set to begin just before footage from inside the Alaska airlines flight after the panel blew out at 16,000 feet, if they had been higher this would have been disastrous.

 

A big hole appeared in the plane at row 26, the cockpit cockpit door opened, a pilots headset was sucked from his head and out through the hole, a small boy came close to being sucked out. And panels continue to fall off Boeing planes.

 

 

But just to highlight my point about how this is actually nothing new - it was Alaska Airlines who didn't even bother greasing the horizontal stabiliser's jackscrew assembly on Flight 261 in 2000. It was Alaska Airlines whose joke of a maintenance department then failed totally to advise the heroic, extraordinary pilots on what they should do. It was Alaska Airlines who left the pilots and passengers to fend for themselves - and to plummet to their deaths.

 

And why? Cost-cutting. Specifically, increasing the periods of required maintenance by FOUR HUNDRED PER CENT - and unbelievably, being allowed to do that by the FAA. 

 

But there's no federal corporate manslaughter law in the US. That's a huge part of why corporations almost always get away with it - even when Alaska Airlines as good as killed 88 people in horrific, unbearable circumstances.

 

Manufacturers (it was a McDonnell Douglas plane in 2000: that disgusting company didn't even make their planes failsafe until well into the 1990s), airlines and regulators have always been culpable. Far more so than most people seem to appreciate. Yet nothing ever happens to them. While people die, their futures stolen from them, and friends and families are left devastated and traumatised.