Japan Airbus crash

[AlphonseCapone]

I wouldn't fly in one of those Max planes if you paid me a small fortune. How have Boeing made such a bad plane?

[Gizmo]

28 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said:

I wouldn't fly in one of those Max planes if you paid me a small fortune. How have Boeing made such a bad plane?

Apparently the safety culture at Boeing was ditched in favour of profit when they "merged" with Mcdonnell-Douglas. The engineers were once rewarded for discovering or alerting the management to safety issues, now they get reprimanded or worse.

I keep meaning to catch-up the Netflix documentary on Boeing (Downfall), I understand it's far from complimentary. There is also a PBS documentary. 

[AlphonseCapone]

1 minute ago, Gizmo said:

Apparently the safety culture at Boeing was ditched in favour of profit when they "merged" with Mcdonnell-Douglas. The engineers were once rewarded for discovering or alerting the management to safety issues, now they get reprimanded or worse.

I keep meaning to catch-up the Netflix documentary on Boeing (Downfall), I understand it's far from complimentary. There is also a PBS documentary. 

 

The documentary on Netflix is meant to be excellent. What worries me is what could potentially be getting covered up because it feels like another major issue could put Boeing into serious bother.

[Gizmo]

1 hour ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

The documentary on Netflix is meant to be excellent. What worries me is what could potentially be getting covered up because it feels like another major issue could put Boeing into serious bother.

Seen that hinted at on Reddit, that Boeing has put all their eggs into the 737MAX platform and are in a rather perilous position. 

[JFK-1]

Seems a window blowing out wasn't what happened on the Boeing, what blew out was a panel where a door can be an option. Makes me wonder if a door would have blown out if it were there.

 

Guessing this aircraft may have designed with a door there. Then maybe much later after production is begun they for commercial reasons rejigged to an optional door replaced by a wall panel if door not required.

 

Nothing going right for Boeing, just as Airbus are being lauded for the safety of their aircraft. Last I heard they're pretty much neck and neck with each having a 50% share of the market, a market Boeing once dominated. 

That may be about to change. Boeing have been struggling with software issues bringing down planes now the planes are literally falling apart in flight.

 

Audio between Boeing plane and ATC starting as they're being told to climb to 15,000 feet. I think the blowout occurred around that height then they declare an emergency and report a depressurisation.

 

 

[highlandjambo3]

11 hours ago, Gizmo said:

Apparently the safety culture at Boeing was ditched in favour of profit when they "merged" with Mcdonnell-Douglas. The engineers were once rewarded for discovering or alerting the management to safety issues, now they get reprimanded or worse.

I keep meaning to catch-up the Netflix documentary on Boeing (Downfall), I understand it's far from complimentary. There is also a PBS documentary. 

If I recall there was an issue with one of the ford cars back in the day, one of there very popular models and they had sold millions of these cars.  
 

After a series of accidents over the years a pattern of fuel tank explosions became apparent which caused X numbers of deaths.  Ford had decided it would be better to pay damages in court after being sued by victims rather than the billions it would pay to rectify the fault.  They were ordered to change the design and upgraded the fuel tanks, changed there location as well I think…………lives over profit eh 🤷‍♂️

[Jambo-Jimbo]

14 hours ago, AlphonseCapone said:

I wouldn't fly in one of those Max planes if you paid me a small fortune. How have Boeing made such a bad plane?

 

That is just one (of several) reasons why I won't fly with Ryanair, their entire fleet is Boeing 737's with more and more 737 MAX aircraft replacing their older models all the time.

 

 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

12 hours ago, Gizmo said:

Seen that hinted at on Reddit, that Boeing has put all their eggs into the 737MAX platform and are in a rather perilous position. 

 

Boeing have had problems with the 737 MAX 8 (2 crashes) and now issues with the MAX 9 and are wanting the FAA to allow them to fly the MAX 7 when they know there are potenially serious overheating engine casing flaws with it.

 

It seems to me that they had a great aircraft in the 737 but have pushed that design too far with the MAX platform, hence all the problems across the entire MAX range, but Boeing can't afford to scrap the MAX platform because as you say they have put all their eggs into it to try and complete with Airbus, especially the newer Airbus NEO platform.

 

The way I see it is that Boeing can't improve anymore on the 737 design, hence all the issues with the MAX aircraft, whereas Airbus has plenty of scope with the A320 family.  It won't be long before Airbus overtakes Boeing as the number 1 aircraft manufacturer.

[Tazio]

2 hours ago, highlandjambo3 said:

If I recall there was an issue with one of the ford cars back in the day, one of there very popular models and they had sold millions of these cars.  
 

After a series of accidents over the years a pattern of fuel tank explosions became apparent which caused X numbers of deaths.  Ford had decided it would be better to pay damages in court after being sued by victims rather than the billions it would pay to rectify the fault.  They were ordered to change the design and upgraded the fuel tanks, changed there location as well I think…………lives over profit eh 🤷‍♂️

Ford Pinto. The fuel tank was in a position pretty much where it would get ruptured if the car was rear ended in a crash. 

[JFK-1]

PBS documentary about Boeing problems from two years ago.

 

Boeing's Fatal Flaw (full documentary) | FRONTLINE

 

In October 2018, a Boeing 737 Max passenger jet crashed shortly after takeoff off the coast of Indonesia. Five months later, following an eerily similar flight pattern, another 737 Max 8 went down in Ethiopia. Everyone on board the flights died.

"Boeing's Fatal Flaw," a FRONTLINE documentary in collaboration with The New York Times, tells the inside story of what led up to the crashes — revealing how intense market pressure and failed oversight contributed to tragic deaths and a catastrophic crisis for one of the world’s most iconic industrial names.

 

 

[That thing you do]

On 06/01/2024 at 16:45, AlphonseCapone said:

 

The documentary on Netflix is meant to be excellent. What worries me is what could potentially be getting covered up because it feels like another major issue could put Boeing into serious bother.

Interesting comments on Pprune (Professional pilots rumour network) about the Max 9. The blow out of the of the door panel recently is down to faulty fitting of it to that plane. Just lucky it wasnt more serious.

 

I dont enjoy flying on them now as too much has happened. Boeing have lost quality control. 

Edited January 8 by That thing you do

[AlphonseCapone]

Just read that apparently Alaska Airlines were intentionally not flying this specific plane long haul over water because of a warning light that was repeatedly coming on. That's atrocious. Pretty much saying something might happen but we'll simply declare an emergency when it does.

[kila]

Reports say an alarm did go off warning ATC of another aircraft entering the runway, but it was missed. They're improving the warning/detection systems for ATC there.

 

[milky_26]

30 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said:

Just read that apparently Alaska Airlines were intentionally not flying this specific plane long haul over water because of a warning light that was repeatedly coming on. That's atrocious. Pretty much saying something might happen but we'll simply declare an emergency when it does.

It was a pressurisation warning and the plane was only delivered to Alaska airlines in October 

[kila]

On 07/01/2024 at 13:08, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Boeing have had problems with the 737 MAX 8 (2 crashes) and now issues with the MAX 9 and are wanting the FAA to allow them to fly the MAX 7 when they know there are potenially serious overheating engine casing flaws with it.

 

It seems to me that they had a great aircraft in the 737 but have pushed that design too far with the MAX platform, hence all the problems across the entire MAX range, but Boeing can't afford to scrap the MAX platform because as you say they have put all their eggs into it to try and complete with Airbus, especially the newer Airbus NEO platform.

 

The way I see it is that Boeing can't improve anymore on the 737 design, hence all the issues with the MAX aircraft, whereas Airbus has plenty of scope with the A320 family.  It won't be long before Airbus overtakes Boeing as the number 1 aircraft manufacturer.

 

The A320neo hasn't been incident free either mind, thankfully no fatal crashes.

 

Toss up between easyJet and Ryanair if you are budget and picking between Airbus and Boeing. Still a lot safer than going somewhere by car.

 

[The Mighty Thor]

Boeing shares down 9% on opening in NY.

 

 

[JFK-1]

I watched a live press conference last night during which it was mentioned they were still looking for the blown out panel, described it while asking people to look out for it.

 

During the press conference they got word that a local teacher called Bob had just sent in a photo of the panel he found after they described it. It was green on one side, could blend in with undergrowth.

 

BBC Article 'Thank you Bob': Search for plane's blown-out panel ended by teacher

[Jambo-Jimbo]

United Airlines have found loose bolts on the door plug during inspections of their 737 MAX 9 aircraft.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-67919436

 

Turkish Airlines, Panama's Copa Airlines & Aeromexico have all grounded their 737 MAX 9 aircraft until they can be checked.

 

[stirlo]

12 hours ago, AlphonseCapone said:

Just read that apparently Alaska Airlines were intentionally not flying this specific plane long haul over water because of a warning light that was repeatedly coming on. That's atrocious. Pretty much saying something might happen but we'll simply declare an emergency when it does.

 

It's incredible not to say rather worrying. It's also rather weird, as surely in the case of a depressurisation situation, the most important factor is the altitude that it occurs at whether the plane is flying over land or sea.

[JFK-1]

Everything about this aircraft has been so bad for Boeing you might start to think it could be irrecoverable. If Airbus had been dreaming up ways to sabotage Boeing to get a bigger share of the market, they would have dreamed design this aircraft. And have one of their own experience a total loss that wasn't their fault but no casualties.

Chances are passengers may become uncomfortable about and resistant to flying in this aircraft even if airlines continue with them. I already saw someone say it on this page, they would be resistant to flying in this aircraft. This could potentially be irrecoverable.

[kila]

2 hours ago, JFK-1 said:

Everything about this aircraft has been so bad for Boeing you might start to think it could be irrecoverable. If Airbus had been dreaming up ways to sabotage Boeing to get a bigger share of the market, they would have dreamed design this aircraft. And have one of their own experience a total loss that wasn't their fault but no casualties.

Chances are passengers may become uncomfortable about and resistant to flying in this aircraft even if airlines continue with them. I already saw someone say it on this page, they would be resistant to flying in this aircraft. This could potentially be irrecoverable.

Same was said after the MAX crashes, that no one would want to fly on them. Seems most just forget and want to grab a cheap flight. Boeing will offer nice discounts to airlines to keep shifting its 737s.

[stirlo]

7 hours ago, kila said:

Same was said after the MAX crashes, that no one would want to fly on them. Seems most just forget and want to grab a cheap flight. Boeing will offer nice discounts to airlines to keep shifting its 737s.

 

Yes - I don't think the vast majority of people give a second thought to what type of aircraft they will be flying on when they're actually shopping around for flights.

 

It's also worth pointing out that the piece of fuselage that fell off the plane the other day is completely unconnected to the previous issues with the 737 Max, which related to the MCAS system designed to prevent the aircraft from stalling.

 

I suspect that the latest issue should be quite straightforward to resolve. I see that United Airlines have identified loose bolts on some of these aircrafts in their fleet, so it is probably quite a basic fault.

[Mysterion]

1 hour ago, stirlo said:

I suspect that the latest issue should be quite straightforward to resolve. I see that United Airlines have identified loose bolts on some of these aircrafts in their fleet, so it is probably quite a basic fault.

 

Would be interesting to establish if the bolts where not installed correctly in the first instance or have rattled themselves lose over time (a short period of time too given this was a recently delivered aircraft). 

[dtgj]

9 hours ago, kila said:

Same was said after the MAX crashes, that no one would want to fly on them. Seems most just forget and want to grab a cheap flight. Boeing will offer nice discounts to airlines to keep shifting its 737s.

 

1 hour ago, stirlo said:

 

Yes - I don't think the vast majority of people give a second thought to what type of aircraft they will be flying on when they're actually shopping around for flights.

 

How would one know what type of plane they will be flying on when booking? For example, I'm flying back to Edinburgh this weekend but I don't see anywhere in my email booking about the type of plane. I went back to the airline's (easyJet) website booking page and I don't see any information on the plane there either. 

[kila]

51 minutes ago, dtgj said:

How would one know what type of plane they will be flying on when booking? For example, I'm flying back to Edinburgh this weekend but I don't see anywhere in my email booking about the type of plane. I went back to the airline's (easyJet) website booking page and I don't see any information on the plane there either. 

 

Some airlines only use one manufacture or even model. Ryanair since they got big have always been Boeing (exclusively using 737's), easyJet switched to Airbus in 2002 (exclusively using the A320 family). By having a fleet of the same family of aircraft, it makes managing pilot training and assignments simpler as well as maintenance, plus a chance of big discounts from the manufacture. But does leave the airline open to being stung if there's a grounding order for the model of plane they use.

 

You can use the FlightRadar app which sometimes shows upcoming flights and assigned aircraft.

 

But there's no point in getting worried about being on a particular type of aircraft (unless it is Russian made). Airlines don't want any issues either, so their maintenance programs once any issues/defects are found will be very thorough.

 

Edited January 9 by kila

[redjambo]

10 minutes ago, kila said:

 

But there's no point in getting worried about being on a particular type of aircraft (unless it is Russian made). Airlines don't want any issues either, so their maintenance programs once any issues/defects are found will be very thorough.

 

 

Very reassuring.

[stirlo]

59 minutes ago, dtgj said:

 

 

How would one know what type of plane they will be flying on when booking? For example, I'm flying back to Edinburgh this weekend but I don't see anywhere in my email booking about the type of plane. I went back to the airline's (easyJet) website booking page and I don't see any information on the plane there either. 

 

As Kila says, I don't think they normally explicitly state this - and indeed I'm not sure in any case to what extent the term 'Max' is actually being used at this stage for aircraft in that series. 

 

One way you would probably be able to work out what aircraft you are on is if you purchase a seat i.e. from the number of rows and the configuration of the emergency exits you could probably work it out.  

 

But notwithstanding the two recent incidents, in relative terms, from a statistical perspective, air travel - particularly in this part of the world - remains a very safe form of transport. There is a significantly higher chance of coming to harm in a motor vehicle or even as a pedestrian but most of us hardly give it a second thought on a daily basis.  

[FWJ]

20 minutes ago, kila said:

 

Some airlines only use one manufacture or even model. Ryanair since they got big have always been Boeing (exclusively using 737's), easyJet switched to Airbus in 2002 (exclusively using the A320 family). By having a fleet of the same family of aircraft, it makes managing pilot training and assignments simpler as well as maintenance, plus a chance of big discounts from the manufacture. But does leave the airline open to being stung if there's a grounding order for the model of plane they use.

 

You can use the FlightRadar app which sometimes shows upcoming flights and assigned aircraft.

 

But there's no point in getting worried about being on a particular type of aircraft (unless it is Russian made). Airlines don't want any issues either, so their maintenance programs once any issues/defects are found will be very thorough.

 

Apparently this is why Boeing have been ‘tweaking’ the 737 over the decades - they can still call it a 737 and if pilots are trained in flying a 737 they can fly any of them - although this iteration is a very different machine to earlier versions.

[stirlo]

19 minutes ago, FWJ said:

Apparently this is why Boeing have been ‘tweaking’ the 737 over the decades - they can still call it a 737 and if pilots are trained in flying a 737 they can fly any of them - although this iteration is a very different machine to earlier versions.

 

I think this was part of the issue with the Max. The engines are bigger and further forward than on previous versions of the 737 and the MCAS system is designed to act as a safety mechanism against the risk of the aircraft's nose rising too much. My understanding was that essentially the issue was that initially some pilots did not have sufficient understanding/training in the use of the MCAS system.

 

As per my previous post, the issue with the fuselage the other day would appear to be a completely unconnected issue.    

Edited January 9 by stirlo

[Jamboross]

22 minutes ago, kila said:

But there's no point in getting worried about being on a particular type of aircraft (unless it is Russian made). Airlines don't want any issues either, so their maintenance programs once any issues/defects are found will be very thorough.

 

 

Ryanair in particular, for all their other faults, seem to be an incredibly safe airline. Given the sheer volume of aircraft movements they perform (close to 1m scheduled flights per year) to have had no major incidents in their history is pretty remarkable. 

 

I'm relatively at ease with the MAX 8 as an aircraft (and the 8-200 sub variant Ryanair have) given the scrutiny it's had but the lack of good QA at Boeing and their suppliers seems to be an ever increasing problem. 

 

[kila]

40 minutes ago, Jamboross said:

Ryanair in particular, for all their other faults, seem to be an incredibly safe airline. Given the sheer volume of aircraft movements they perform (close to 1m scheduled flights per year) to have had no major incidents in their history is pretty remarkable. 

 

I'm relatively at ease with the MAX 8 as an aircraft (and the 8-200 sub variant Ryanair have) given the scrutiny it's had but the lack of good QA at Boeing and their suppliers seems to be an ever increasing problem. 

 

Let's see how the MAX 10 rollout goes  Ryanair has ordered initially 150, due for delivery from 2027.

 

[Japan Jambo]

from comments this morning on Radio 4 I got the impression that the issues were down to production issues rather than design flaws. Boeing apparently furloughed a ton of folk during Covid and were only able to get about 20% of them back, when they'd previously done mass furloughs they'd gotten most staff back so underestimated the impact. Not sure I wanted to know that planes were being built by trainees and disaffected folks on shitty work contracts.

[JFK-1]

Solved, all aboard.