What happens when

[Vlad Magic]

The other clubs who haven’t invested in their stadiums are forced to but can’t?

 

By that I mean we have upgraded Tynie with significant investment. There are others literally falling apart. Where will the investment come from when these clubs are forced to upgrade or close?

 

Its a rather sad indictment however looking at the turnover figures from another OP we have a lot of clubs who may be forced to close the doors altogether on health and safety grounds.

 

This is a massive problem that isn’t going away anytime soon.

 

What would happen to us, Rangers, Celtic, Hibs if the league collapsed due to mass stadium closures due to H&S failures?

[davemclaren]

5 minutes ago, Vlad Magic said:

The other clubs who haven’t invested in their stadiums are forced to but can’t?

 

By that I mean we have upgraded Tynie with significant investment. There are others literally falling apart. Where will the investment come from when these clubs are forced to upgrade or close?

 

Its a rather sad indictment however looking at the turnover figures from another OP we have a lot of clubs who may be forced to close the doors altogether on health and safety grounds.

 

This is a massive problem that isn’t going away anytime soon.

 

What would happen to us, Rangers, Celtic, Hibs if the league collapsed due to mass stadium closures due to H&S failures?

Which ones in particular? I can only think of Aberdeen and Dundee having short term issues with old stands. 

[jr ewing]

Council owned stadiums will be the way forward. 

[Shooter McGavin]

To be fair, I’m surprised some clubs made the transition from their old terrace stadiums to all seaters after Hillsborough, without folding.

[Vlad Magic]

5 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

Which ones in particular? I can only think of Aberdeen and Dundee having short term issues with old stands. 

Rather than short term I’m thinking further down the line. 
 

How will they fund anything like a stand redevelopment let alone a whole ground? 

[AlimOzturk]

There would be funding found from somewhere. Look at what happened when we nearly went under. 
 

Maybe not every club but the biggest ones I have no doubt would survive. Or they would fold but a new entity would take its place. 
 

Scottish football will never be short of clubs. The biggest problem is funnily enough to many clubs and not enough fans. 

Edited November 29, 2023 by AlimOzturk

[Luckies1874]

8 minutes ago, AlimOzturk said:

Scottish football will never be short of clubs. The biggest problem is funnily enough to many clubs and not enough fans. 

 

Too many clubs possibly but more people watch professional football per capita in Scotland than in any country in Europe. Despite everything that is wrong with our game we remain are an utterly football mad nation. Which is why come June next year the economy will get a massive boost from Euro 2024 fever! 

[Mikey1874]

Aberdeen being forced to stay at Pittodrie would be interesting for them.

 

Dundee seems uncertain but they seem committed to the new stadium.

 

Then its the smaller teams who could get promoted. But overall stadium situation is pretty decent. The main work was done.

[Drylaw Hearts]

1 hour ago, jr ewing said:

Council owned stadiums will be the way forward. 

Not in our lifetime.

 

I doubt there is a council in the land that doesn’t have an annual shortfall in resources….there is no way they’d be able to justify spending money to support privately owned football clubs.

 

[jr ewing]

54 minutes ago, Drylaw Hearts said:

Not in our lifetime.

 

I doubt there is a council in the land that doesn’t have an annual shortfall in resources….there is no way they’d be able to justify spending money to support privately owned football clubs.

 

Community owned cllubs. 

[Jim Panzee]

2 hours ago, Vlad Magic said:

Rather than short term I’m thinking further down the line. 
 

How will they fund anything like a stand redevelopment let alone a whole ground? 

Rules will be changed.

 

cheaper than updating stadiums…

[AlimOzturk]

4 hours ago, Luckies1874 said:

 

Too many clubs possibly but more people watch professional football per capita in Scotland than in any country in Europe. Despite everything that is wrong with our game we remain are an utterly football mad nation. Which is why come June next year the economy will get a massive boost from Euro 2024 fever! 

I think I may have worded that poorly but yes, we are a very well supported nation of football daft sods. 
 

I think what I meant as, population wise, we simply have to many clubs for our numbers to go around and rather than having, for example, one Dundee club in which 15- 20 thousand supporters regularly attend they are spread over two Dundee clubs diluting the resources. 
 

With fewer clubs I believe the old firm wouldn’t be as dominant. 

[Bull's-eye]

6 hours ago, Luckies1874 said:

 

Too many clubs possibly but more people watch professional football per capita in Scotland than in any country in Europe. Despite everything that is wrong with our game we remain are an utterly football mad nation. Which is why come June next year the economy will get a massive boost from Euro 2024 fever! 

 

That's the Narrative that gives the morons like Doncaster his argument about how everything is in Scotland is rosy.  Absolute drivel. if Wrexham build a 50k plus stadium and make it to the Championship, never mind the EPL, then Wales will probably earn the coveted title of wee country were everyone loves football.

 

We are an utterly football mad nation for 2 teams, the said 2 teams that are strangling the life out of the game. The 2 teams are the cause of threads like this. 

[Forrest]

33 minutes ago, Bull's-eye said:

 

That's the Narrative that gives the morons like Doncaster his argument about how everything is in Scotland is rosy.  Absolute drivel. if Wrexham build a 50k plus stadium and make it to the Championship, never mind the EPL, then Wales will probably earn the coveted title of wee country were everyone loves football.

 

We are an utterly football mad nation for 2 teams, the said 2 teams that are strangling the life out of the game. The 2 teams are the cause of threads like this. 

 

Good shout. Does anybody know where we'd lie in the table if the Sectarian Firm are taken out of the equation? 

[Bainy]

I'd put rangers in that bracket. Ibrox is a hole and falling apart I can't see them splashing money on it while the continue to trail behind celtic on the pitch. 

[Der Kaiser]

I dont like the look of the new stand from the outside.

 

There.

 

I said it.

[Luckies1874]

2 hours ago, Bull's-eye said:

 

That's the Narrative that gives the morons like Doncaster his argument about how everything is in Scotland is rosy.  Absolute drivel. if Wrexham build a 50k plus stadium and make it to the Championship, never mind the EPL, then Wales will probably earn the coveted title of wee country were everyone loves football.

 

We are an utterly football mad nation for 2 teams, the said 2 teams that are strangling the life out of the game. The 2 teams are the cause of threads like this. 

Nice rant. 😂
Many countries have a couple of dominant clubs especially small countries the size of ours! Our national team gets way bigger crowds than some bigger countries and pretty much all similarly sized or smaller countries. The fact remains more people watch professional football per head in our country than any other in Europe. 
 

This thread has hee haw to do with Celtic and Rangers by the way, it’s a thread about some bizarre notion that some clubs may go to the wall due to work required on their stadia 🤷‍♂️

 

[droid]

45 minutes ago, R9. said:

Stadiums in Scotland will end up looking like those old dog running ground”s. 
 

Can’t think of many in the SPFL but in the champ and lower leagues there will be a few, surprised some of them get the safety certificate now.

Most already do!

[db211833]

9 hours ago, Luckies1874 said:

 

Too many clubs possibly but more people watch professional football per capita in Scotland than in any country in Europe. Despite everything that is wrong with our game we remain are an utterly football mad nation. Which is why come June next year the economy will get a massive boost from Euro 2024 fever! 

Whilst you are right about the numbers, they are massively skewed by Rangers and Celtic 

[TexasAndy]

Building Wheatfield, McLeod St and Gorgie stands was almost the death of us.  Ironically Romanov saved us from losing our ground.  It shows the challenge that maintaining a stadium brings.  Thanks to FOH and other generous investors\donators we are now in the enviable position that we can generate serious income from our stadium to help all aspects of the club moving forward.  

[kingantti1874]

10 hours ago, jr ewing said:

Council owned stadiums will be the way forward. 

the councils are nearly bankrupt, and have obliterated their services. Will never happen until they are run like proper business, culling the staff who offer nothing but hold a golden ticket on at public expense 

[Luckies1874]

1 minute ago, db211833 said:

Whilst you are right about the numbers, they are massively skewed by Rangers and Celtic 

Just as they are with say Ajax and PSV in Holland. A country 3 times our size. The facts are the facts. Are there any other countries of 5-6 million people getting as big crowds from their 3rd/4th/5th most supported clubs? If so who are they? 

[pettigrewsstylist]

6 minutes ago, TexasAndy said:

Building Wheatfield, McLeod St and Gorgie stands was almost the death of us.  Ironically Romanov saved us from losing our ground.  It shows the challenge that maintaining a stadium brings.  Thanks to FOH and other generous investors\donators we are now in the enviable position that we can generate serious income from our stadium to help all aspects of the club moving forward.  

Which is why the mad one will always be redeemed!

[Cambo]

Pre Taylor recommendations, most clubs had majority terracing which had stood for 50 plus years and was easy enough to maintain, at little cost. All seated stadia is far more costly to maintain and clubs who built new grounds or stands in the late 1990s, will start to have to give thought to costly upgrades in the not too distant future. A possible return to terracing isnt the worst idea but stadiums like Dens Park need to go as they are a complete eyesore and bad for image of Scottish football.

[indianajones]

1 hour ago, Der Kaiser said:

I dont like the look of the new stand from the outside.

 

There.

 

I said it.

 

It's not the nicest thing to look at that's for sure. I don't get the different shades of glass. If it were just one it would be much nicer. 

[jamboozy]

Until monies is used more wisely for the good of ALL of Scottish football, and not just two clubs from Glasgow? Nothing will change. As the saying goes, the rich will get richer and the poor will get poorer.😟

[buzzbomb1958]

10 hours ago, Mikey1874 said:

Aberdeen being forced to stay at Pittodrie would be interesting for them.

 

Dundee seems uncertain but they seem committed to the new stadium.

 

Then its the smaller teams who could get promoted. But overall stadium situation is pretty decent. The main work was done.

If the Dundee teams had any sense they would build a new 10,000 seater stadium and ground share. It’s stupid to have two grounds 100 yards apart prime building land at that , I know it won’t happen but it does make sense in every way

[Jim Panzee]

15 minutes ago, indianajones said:

 

It's not the nicest thing to look at that's for sure. I don't get the different shades of glass. If it were just one it would be much nicer. 

you can tell we've just won 3 on the bounce

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

Aberdeen were leaking 800k a year on the old stand, that must be heading past the million mark these days. The Beach End fortunately for them is a strong asset, tons of space inside for corporate events, probably gets used every day.

[OTT]

10 hours ago, Mikey1874 said:

Aberdeen being forced to stay at Pittodrie would be interesting for them.

 

Dundee seems uncertain but they seem committed to the new stadium.

 

Then its the smaller teams who could get promoted. But overall stadium situation is pretty decent. The main work was done.

 

I don't really understand why staying at Pittodrie wasn't the original plan. 

 

Its not a great stadium by any stretch, but costs are now up to £80m. Its prohibitively expensive for them to try and move. Common sense approach looks to be a very gradual stand by stand upgrade. 

 

Reality is that they're highly unlikely to need capacity for more than 20k and the Dick Donald stand is probably the only one not requiring a total rebuild.

 

Beyond all of that, on purely a sentimental level, what they achieved under Ferguson was special, and they should seek to preserve their home on that basis. Not a lot of clubs can boast European silverware. 

[Sir PH]

11 hours ago, Luckies1874 said:

 

Too many clubs possibly but more people watch professional football per capita in Scotland than in any country in Europe. Despite everything that is wrong with our game we remain are an utterly football mad nation. Which is why come June next year the economy will get a massive boost from Euro 2024 fever! 

The Old Firm's home attendances massively skew those figures. Go further down the leagues and the attendances are atrocious, all across Scotland. 

[Luckies1874]

8 minutes ago, Sir PH said:

The Old Firm's home attendances massively skew those figures. Go further down the leagues and the attendances are atrocious, all across Scotland. 

 

Those lower league attendances are utterly irrelevant. We are a country of 5-6 million people! How many people do you think are going to watch lower league football?! The fact is, that more people watch football in Scotland per head than anywhere else in Europe. Find me a country our size that has two massive clubs yet still has a Hearts, Hibs and Aberdeen getting 15-20k regularly. The support for football in Scotland is absolutely incredible. 

Edited November 30, 2023 by Luckies1874

[Bull's-eye]

1 minute ago, Luckies1874 said:

 

Those attendances are utterly irrelevant. We are a country of 5-6 million people! How many people do you think are going to watch lower league football?! The fact is, that more people watch football in Scotland per head than anywhere else in Europe. Find me a country our size that has two massive clubs yet still has a Hearts, Hibs and Aberdeen getting 15-20k regularly. The support for football in Scotland is absolutely incredible. 

 

[Luckies1874]

Just now, Bull's-eye said:

 

 

 

Aye, you are the boards laughing stock that's for sure. 

[Sir PH]

2 minutes ago, Luckies1874 said:

 

Those attendances are utterly irrelevant. We are a country of 5-6 million people! How many people do you think are going to watch lower league football?! The fact is, that more people watch football in Scotland per head than anywhere else in Europe. Find me a country our size that has two massive clubs yet still has a Hearts, Hibs and Aberdeen getting 15-20k regularly. The support for football in Scotland is absolutely incredible. 

It isn't incredible and the figures aren't irrelevant. Take out the Old Firm, Hearts, Hibs and Aberdeen, and the attendance figures are horrific. Stadiums are more than half empty all over the country. 

[The Treasurer]

Even clubs who have relatively new grounds, Killie, St Johnstone etc will find their maintenance costs rising year on year, until it becomes unmanageable, we were heading that way with the old stand. 

 

[Luckies1874]

11 minutes ago, Sir PH said:

It isn't incredible and the figures aren't irrelevant. Take out the Old Firm, Hearts, Hibs and Aberdeen, and the attendance figures are horrific. Stadiums are more than half empty all over the country. 

 

😂

 

Take the 5 biggest clubs out of the equation......aye, that's a great argument.

 

Now do that for every mid size league from a small country and look at the attendances below the 5th biggest! Or actually don't add those 5 clubs attendances together and find me a country that has under 6 million in population and get's close to that figure. Find a country with 5-6 million who has clubs 3rd to 5th who get attendances between 15-20k! The support for football in Scotland is unbelievable. Denying that is just stupid as it's a fact.

[Sparky]

According to articles based on transfermarkt's figures:

1. Scotland have 21.3 attendees per 1,000 population [117,700 fans per week].

2. Netherlands 12.9 attendees per 1,000

3. Denmark 12.2 attendees per 1,000

4. England & Wales 11.4 attendees per 1,000

 

If we take 50,000 fans out of our figures each week:

Scotland would have 12.2 attendees per 1,000 population [67,700 fans per week]. That puts us joint second with Denmark. So still right up there.

 

Bigger list here (twitter)

[Sir PH]

29 minutes ago, Luckies1874 said:

 

😂

 

Take the 5 biggest clubs out of the equation......aye, that's a great argument.

 

Now do that for every mid size league from a small country and look at the attendances below the 5th biggest! Or actually don't add those 5 clubs attendances together and find me a country that has under 6 million in population and get's close to that figure. Find a country with 5-6 million who has clubs 3rd to 5th who get attendances between 15-20k! The support for football in Scotland is unbelievable. Denying that is just stupid as it's a fact.

No, take the two biggest out of 38 clubs and our attendance figures are abysmal. Stadiums are empty up and down the country and many fans have found better things to do on a Saturday afternoon. You're making out we have strong attendances throughout our leagues, when the reality is, we don't. 

[Texaco]

Stadium upkeep is just another cost to budget for. Clubs as they always have, with changing regulations, will manage to meet the minimum safety standards to get thier licences. Even if it means reduced  capacity. More like dodgy owners than decrepit stadiums will bankrupt a club. After safety nothing else matters apart from the directors box comfort. As for the punters a hard seat with a restricted view and long queues to get in and for a piss and pie is the norm.  We are lucky, Tynecastle is a joy to visit in any stand. Maybe that is part of our increased season ticket sales. A great day out. 

[SeaOfMaroon]

26 minutes ago, Sir PH said:

No, take the two biggest out of 38 clubs and our attendance figures are abysmal. Stadiums are empty up and down the country and many fans have found better things to do on a Saturday afternoon. You're making out we have strong attendances throughout our leagues, when the reality is, we don't. 

You can't just remove a variable and not make any adjustment for it. If you remove the 100k + plus that attend Ibrox and CP, they don't just dissappear, they have to go somewhere. A good percentage would attend their local club if no Celtic or Rangers.

[Bender]

29 minutes ago, Sparky said:

According to articles based on transfermarkt's figures:

1. Scotland have 21.3 attendees per 1,000 population [117,700 fans per week].

2. Netherlands 12.9 attendees per 1,000

3. Denmark 12.2 attendees per 1,000

4. England & Wales 11.4 attendees per 1,000

 

If we take 50,000 fans out of our figures each week:

Scotland would have 12.2 attendees per 1,000 population [67,700 fans per week]. That puts us joint second with Denmark. So still right up there.

 

Bigger list here (twitter)

 

29 minutes ago, Sir PH said:

No, take the two biggest out of 38 clubs and our attendance figures are abysmal. Stadiums are empty up and down the country and many fans have found better things to do on a Saturday afternoon. You're making out we have strong attendances throughout our leagues, when the reality is, we don't. 

 

Seems like you're wrong.

[Sir PH]

Just now, Bender said:

 

 

Seems like you're wrong.

Ok, our stadiums are bursting at the seams every Saturday. 

[Luckies1874]

38 minutes ago, Sir PH said:

No, take the two biggest out of 38 clubs and our attendance figures are abysmal. Stadiums are empty up and down the country and many fans have found better things to do on a Saturday afternoon. You're making out we have strong attendances throughout our leagues, when the reality is, we don't. 

 

What on earth are you talking about. I stated a fact: more people attend professional football per capita in our country than any other in Europe and it’s not close! It makes no difference which team they are watching it is still a fact! No similarly sized country gets close. If you take the big 2 clubs out of most leagues out with the top 5 then you’d be left with much poorer attendances for other clubs in those leagues! But those countries have 50-80 million people. I’ll ask again, find me a country of our size which has the 3rd-5th biggest teams getting the crowds ours do. The support for football in Scotland is unbelievable.  

Edited November 30, 2023 by Luckies1874

[Sir PH]

5 minutes ago, Luckies1874 said:

 

What on earth are you talking about. I stated a fact: more people attend professional football per capita in our country than any other in Europe and it’s not close! It makes no difference which team they are watching it is still a fact! No similarly sized country gets close. If you take the big 2 clubs out of most leagues out with the top 5 then you’d be left with much poorer attendances for other clubs in those leagues! But those countries have 50-80 million people. I’ll ask again, find me a country of our size which has the 3rd-5th biggest teams getting the crowds ours do. The support for football in Scotland is unbelievable.  

You really wouldn't. The likes of England has strong attendances throughout their leagues. They're not relying on Manchester United and Liverpool to make the figures look good. 

[Unknown user]

Just now, Sir PH said:

You really wouldn't. The likes of England has strong attendances throughout their leagues. They're not relying on Manchester United and Liverpool to make the figures look good. 

 

Yet they have a lower attendance per head of population than us, with or without Celtic and the rangers.

[Bull's-eye]

5 minutes ago, ǝǝɥʇᴉɯS said:

 

Yet they have a lower attendance per head of population than us, with or without Celtic and the rangers.

 

Which kinda proves that using attendance per head as a part of an argument about the state of football stadiums in Scotland is plainly stupid. 

 

There isn't any money in Scottish Football because of Rangers & Celtic,  they've killed the game between them. It's not rocket science, the attendance per population proves that in fact, the price is low because the product is pish which is another reason the figures are irrelevant, it's affordable to watch games at all levels in Scotland.  

[chrisyboy7]

2 hours ago, R9. said:

I don’t mind Tannadice but Dens is a toilet. I always thought years ago with Dundee in trouble a lot with money they would end up ground sharing with Dundee United. 

10k too small

[Luckies1874]

23 minutes ago, Sir PH said:

You really wouldn't. The likes of England has strong attendances throughout their leagues. They're not relying on Manchester United and Liverpool to make the figures look good. 

 You really don’t understand do you. 
 

They have a population of over 60 million!
 

And as I’ve said numerous times, Scotland comfortably sees more people per head attend football on a weekly basis than England! It has nothing to do with who people are watching! 

[Tommy Brown]

8 hours ago, AlimOzturk said:

I think I may have worded that poorly but yes, we are a very well supported nation of football daft sods. 
 

I think what I meant as, population wise, we simply have to many clubs for our numbers to go around and rather than having, for example, one Dundee club in which 15- 20 thousand supporters regularly attend they are spread over two Dundee clubs diluting the resources. 
 

With fewer clubs I believe the old firm wouldn’t be as dominant. 

Disagree, that doesn't happen, amalgamation route kills two clubs

 

Now is the perfect time for both clubs to join resourses for a shared stadium though