***Scotland vs Norway - Official Match Thread ***

[busbyfth]

team hasnt won in the last 5 games yet we wont play the countries in form striker ? If he wore an OF top most weeks he would be one of the first names on the team sheet..,.,.,. #Glasgow IS Scottish football 

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

23 minutes ago, Dazo said:

I’m sorry but what ? He questioned Shanklands finishing in a shooting exercise ffs. 

Yip, one thing you notice during a warm up in an international to one at Tynecastle is the intensity and detail. It is indeed a different level, and that will apply from the minute you go through the door. Suddenly training with guys who are playing elite football, hardly worthy of your giggles now, is it?

[Dazo]

Just now, Lord Beni of Gorgie said:

Yip, one thing you notice during a warm up in an international to one at Tynecastle is the intensity and detail. It is indeed a different level, and that will apply from the minute you go through the door. Suddenly training with guys who are playing elite football, hardly worthy of your giggles now, is it?

Yes it 100% is. Shanklands finishing is beyond question. 

[Hearts1975]

4 minutes ago, Luckies1874 said:

 

 

Hanley, for me, gets a terribly poor rap from some Scotland fans. He is still in my opinion, our best out and out no nonsense defender. A bit like Halkett for Hearts. Notably he has also played in our big wins, an example was the Spain 2-0 when he was an absolute rock. The only game we've lost in the last 2 sets of qualifiers that he has started was Denmark away. He's reliable, a big presence and I don't see Clarke leaving him out assuming he has been playing first team football. 

 

Agree re Doak but as discussed above I just don't see how that happens in a 23 man squad unless he goes and gets regular games elsewhere. 

He does. Agree with that. My single biggest criticism of him is his pace. I also worry that in the short term that will also decline. At this level it's a huge weakness. 

He's a trier and an honest pro, but players need to make way at some point for the next ones coming through. 

I'm not disputing he will be in Clarke's thoughts though. 

 

[Luckies1874]

3 minutes ago, Dazo said:

Fair and entirely reasonable you said about a post that questioned Shanklands finishing. That’s what I seen, you sticking by that ? 

 

As I said I was agreeing with his overall premise and the fact he is capable of taking off his maroon and white jammies. I suspect you wear yours 24-7!  Of course I believe Shankland to be a good finisher as I have said throughout this thread. Additionally I think he will be on the plane to Germany fitness permitting and if he continues to do the business for Hearts. Few seem to agree so we will see one the coming months. 

[tiger Rudi]

5 hours ago, Thomaso said:

You mean Clarke based his selection on the absolute drivel written on here by absolute rockets? 

Where in my post does it even infer that Clarke reads this fekn forum? He's got his own eyes, he's got his own "scouts" or any word you want to call them. The difference between Shanks now and the beginning of the season is night and day. It doesn't need an absolute rocket to see that! 

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

4 minutes ago, Luckies1874 said:

 

 

I agree with you. Was just pointing out the hypocrisy of some in judging a player as it doesn't fit their agenda. For clarity, Brown was hopeless and did his cause untold harm. Personally I think it was a great few days for Lawrence Shankland! 

I dont always agree with you, if folk notice that, I'm with you 100% on this one.

 

I totally get Hearts fans wanting our player in, I was there myself last night desperate for him to get his chance, but its not quite as simple as most believe. 

 

Watching this team closely for a while now and Hearts forever, I can see the differences in identity.

 

What a lot of people probably not taking into account is the likely input of Naismith also. He was a trusted lieutenant, less than 6 months ago, pretty sure SC and SN chat Shanks regularly.

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

3 minutes ago, Dazo said:

Yes it 100% is. Shanklands finishing is beyond question. 

It is in the Scottish Premier League. Last night in drills, it didnt stand out as it would at Tynecastle in similar drills. I think folk are way too defensive, you are immediately getting your back up, I'm not questioning his finishing, i said he was hitting the target, others were hitting the target and corners, Skacel style for some illustration.

 

Shanks is a great player, I am desperate for him to get a chance, however I'm watching to see why perhaps he isnt

[Hearts1975]

11 minutes ago, boag1874 said:

I think you're probably right there. If he ends up playing a bigger role in the Liverpool team or goes out on loan to another prem/top end championship team & tears it up then there's a question to ask but as it stands he's a promising young player, nothing more. March's team selection will be a big one, it'll show us a lot in terms of seeing who's in with a good shout of going on the plane. 

Absolutely. 

I also wonder if anything will break with the Newcastle lads between now and March. 

There are 3 or 4 who could potentially jump ship and come to us. 

If any of them do, you would think that they would almost certainly be taking a spot on the plane 

Whether that's the right thing to do (or not) remains to be seen

And if so, who gets left out .... 

Edited November 20 by Hearts1975

[Luckies1874]

1 minute ago, Hearts1975 said:

He does. Agree with that. My single biggest criticism of him is his pace. I also worry that in the short term that will also decline. At this level it's a huge weakness. 

He's a trier and an honest pro, but players need to make way at some point for the next ones coming through. 

I'm not disputing he will be in Clarke's thoughts though. 

 

 

Who would be your back 3 right now for Germany? 

 

Assuming everyone available and it was being picked right now I'm thinking this team is most likely to start

 

Gunn

 

Porteous   Hanley   Tierney

Hickey                                          Robertson 

McGregor  Gimour

McGinn              McTominay 

Dykes    

 

 

Gordon could still challenge Gunn but that's entirely up to (i) Stevie Naismith and (ii) how things goes when he gets into our side. 

There could be debate as to the back 3 combo. Possible Hendry is in contention. McKenna is certainly going to need to leave Forest to play if he wants considered more than a squad player. 

Adams and Dykes (putting aside all the Shanks talk for a moment) are likely competing for the starting role.

Harvey Barnes (the only one of the Newcastle 4 I can see at all likely) could change things but that is going to need to see a commitment soon.

 

[Luckies1874]

10 minutes ago, Lord Beni of Gorgie said:

I dont always agree with you, if folk notice that, I'm with you 100% on this one.

 

I totally get Hearts fans wanting our player in, I was there myself last night desperate for him to get his chance, but its not quite as simple as most believe. 

 

Watching this team closely for a while now and Hearts forever, I can see the differences in identity.

 

What a lot of people probably not taking into account is the likely input of Naismith also. He was a trusted lieutenant, less than 6 months ago, pretty sure SC and SN chat Shanks regularly.

 

👍 I do too and of course wanted Shanks to repeat the magic of Thursday. I remember vividly being gutted as a youngster, when Robbo was frequently overlooked, despite massive competition at the time, so I get it, I just don't agree with some of the reasons people have given and the fact they are dismissing someone who knows what they are doing and why there are doing it. And as I've said he last week couldn't have worked out better for Shankland. 

 

Good point re Naismith. Mentioned earlier in the thread that Naismith will be tapped into things. Suggested that if Halkett doesn't get back or breaks down we should show some ambition and go and get McKenna on loan for 6 months to play beside Kent and Rowles. Sure Clarke would be thrilled to see him playing for us week in week out. 

[Luckies1874]

38 years ago today, my first Scotland game at Hampden in fact thinking about it, it must have been my first game at Hampden as the JC volley against Dundee Utd wasn't until the following April.

 

JFC. Make the most of life folks, we ain't here long! 

 

 

[ArcticJambo]

2 hours ago, chrystaf said:

Yes, who knows if he's  playing mind games.  Regardless. he could have played Shanks for the first half then Brown for the second.

How you assess a proven goal scorer by giving him five minutes at the end of a game is beyond me.  Even more so when he did score the first time. 

 

If you're to look at it optimistically from the Shanks pov, you'd already have him going as your fox in the box forward, coz frankly there's no way Clarke is going with any other way of playing than a big lump of a runner up front and relying on the McGinn McSauce coming late to score method of fitba.

 

Brown's outing last night was to ... well, .... I'm not sure actually!

[ArcticJambo]

1 hour ago, Fozzyonthefence said:

He should be trying to learn if Shankland is an option to start certain games and prove himself as our best striker (not just best finisher), not just a desperation sub when a goal down with a few minutes to go.   Only one way to find that out but it appears Clarke won’t do it.  I think I heard there may be 3 games before the finals.  I think we can all safely bet our houses that Shanks won’t start any of them. 
 

All very well bringing him on late to grab a goal but what about the chances that could get missed before he comes on?

I agree with this, it makes perfect sense but as you know and has been pointed out multiple times, Clarke is a stuuborn old git who will probably resort to decisions based purely on spite! Scotland/the media call for Shanks, nope! not gonna do that.

 

Lets hope he surpises us, however.

[Fozzyonthefence]

38 minutes ago, Lord Beni of Gorgie said:

I think he will be on the plane, but he is the emergency plan rather than Plan A. Just about every striker we have is different, unfortunately for Shanks, his style seems to be the one least compatible to the high energy game we play. I think he could adapt, last night I thought was a good chance for each to get a half

Where was this high energy, high pressing game last night?!

 

I’m not advocating Shankland should be first choice striker by the way, I’m just saying he should at least be given the chance to show if he’s good enough or not.  I wonder how many countries never, ever start their best goal scorer?!

[tiger Rudi]

17 minutes ago, Luckies1874 said:

 

Who would be your back 3 right now for Germany? 

 

Assuming everyone available and it was being picked right now I'm thinking this team is most likely to start

 

Gunn

 

Porteous   Hanley   Tierney

Hickey                                          Robertson 

McGregor  Gimour

McGinn              McTominay 

Dykes    

 

 

Gordon could still challenge Gunn but that's entirely up to (i) Stevie Naismith and (ii) how things goes when he gets into our side. 

There could be debate as to the back 3 combo. Possible Hendry is in contention. McKenna is certainly going to need to leave Forest to play if he wants considered more than a squad player. 

Adams and Dykes (putting aside all the Shanks talk for a moment) are likely competing for the starting role.

Harvey Barnes (the only one of the Newcastle 4 I can see at all likely) could change things but that is going to need to see a commitment soon.

 

Strong looking team, imagine a midfield of 

             McGregor

McGinn, McTominay, Barnes

 

Much as I love Gilmour, he needs to be playing week in, week out for his club. Is he managing that just now? 

 

Hendry over Porteous for me. Porteous has done really well but I just feel there's going to be a big big brain-fart coming, gives me the fear at times. Possibly unwarranted and I hope I'm proven wrong. 

[Luckies1874]

Just now, ArcticJambo said:

I agree with this, it makes perfect sense but as you know and has been pointed out multiple times, Clarke is a stuuborn old git who will probably resort to decisions based purely on spite! Scotland/the media call for Shanks, nope! not gonna do that.

 

Lets hope he surpises us, however.

 

How was trying Brown stubborn? It was his first start!!!  He had literally never picked him before to start a game! Just because we wanted to see Shankland start doesn't make it a stubborn decision. He, rightly or wrongly and given his record he deserves the benefit of the doubt, wanted to see what Brown had. It turned out not very much which was actually a bonus for Shankland given he had shown the country exactly what he can contribute a few days earlier. I'd love to hear more evidence of Clarke's supposed misplaced loyalty and stubborn approach. Who are all these players who are being left out by him?! 

[Mikey1874]

6 minutes ago, tiger Rudi said:

Strong looking team, imagine a midfield of 

             McGregor

McGinn, McTominay, Barnes

 

Much as I love Gilmour, he needs to be playing week in, week out for his club. Is he managing that just now? 

 

Hendry over Porteous for me. Porteous has done really well but I just feel there's going to be a big big brain-fart coming, gives me the fear at times. Possibly unwarranted and I hope I'm proven wrong. 

 

Billy Gilmour starts most games for Brighton, sometimes a sub. 

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

3 minutes ago, Fozzyonthefence said:

Where was this high energy, high pressing game last night?!

 

I’m not advocating Shankland should be first choice striker by the way, I’m just saying he should at least be given the chance to show if he’s good enough or not.  I wonder how many countries never, ever start their best goal scorer?!

My first post alluded to last nights match Fozzy. Not a great game to judge anyone on with so many pull outs and changes both teams. A game nobody actually wanted to play.

 

Shankland could barely get a goal for Hearts and many of our own fans felt he needed rest September into October, the rest he did get seems to have done him so good. I see Adams get decried a fair bit, however this is a player Soton have fought tooth and nail to hold onto. 

 

Scotlands goals mostly come from the midfield as a result of a hard working forward burrowing holes for midfielders to stride onto in the box. It works its not changing, you need to look a lot deeper as to how Scotland have been successful and scoring plenty goals in quailfication

[Luckies1874]

2 minutes ago, tiger Rudi said:

Strong looking team, imagine a midfield of 

             McGregor

McGinn, McTominay, Barnes

 

Much as I love Gilmour, he needs to be playing week in, week out for his club. Is he managing that just now? 

 

Hendry over Porteous for me. Porteous has done really well but I just feel there's going to be a big big brain-fart coming, gives me the fear at times. Possibly unwarranted and I hope I'm proven wrong. 

 

Barnes would be a significant addition no doubt about it and I think he's by far the most likely given his age, stage and what he is up against player wise down south. I think Anderson is done for now and both Gordon and Livramento will wait it out even if not involved for England next summer. It's possible 1 or more of these could be revisited in time - breaking into the England squad never mind their team isn't going to be easy. 

 

Gimour has started more than half their EPL games and featured in nearly all of them. 

 

I think Poreteous's ability on the ball to pick a pass possibly has him leading the race there but it's definitely debatable. 

[Fozzyonthefence]

36 minutes ago, Lord Beni of Gorgie said:

It is in the Scottish Premier League. Last night in drills, it didnt stand out as it would at Tynecastle in similar drills. I think folk are way too defensive, you are immediately getting your back up, I'm not questioning his finishing, i said he was hitting the target, others were hitting the target and corners, Skacel style for some illustration.

 

Shanks is a great player, I am desperate for him to get a chance, however I'm watching to see why perhaps he isnt

A far better indicator of Shankland’s finishing is what he does in actual games not training drills.  If he’s not hitting the postage stamp in training drills who cares as long as he does it when it matters?  38 goals in less than a season and a half suggests he knows where the corner of the goals are.  
 

Easy to dismiss the standard of the SPFL but he has scored 6 in his last 6 games (just over 5 games actually) before last night with one of them for Scotland and 3 against Celtic and Rangers.  Also 2 against Rosenberg and 1 against PAOK.  It’s not like it’s just bottom 6 dross he scores against.  Meanwhile Adams, Dykes, Nisbet are hardly tearing up trees in the Championship and Brown’s 1 goal was against Gillingham.  It’s mediocre players keeping him out, not a Law, Dalglish, Archibald, Johnston, or McCoist. 

[Luckies1874]

Seems the Georgians shat the bed big time last night. No idea why they would play by far their best player, as we saw last week, Kvaratskhelia, in a meaningless game v Spain, with a play off guaranteed and him on 2 bookings. Inevitably he stupidly got booked and now misses the play off semi final. An incredibly idiotic decision by their coaching staff! 

 

 

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

Just now, Fozzyonthefence said:

A far better indicator of Shankland’s finishing is what he does in actual games not training drills.  If he’s not hitting the postage stamp in training drills who cares as long as he does it when it matters?  38 goals in less than a season and a half suggests he knows where the corner of the goals are.  
 

Easy to dismiss the standard of the SPFL but he has scored 6 in his last 6 games (just over 5 games actually) before last night with one of them for Scotland and 3 against Celtic and Rangers.  Also 2 against Rosenberg and 1 against PAOK.  It’s not like it’s just bottom 6 dross he scores against.  Meanwhile Adams, Dykes, Nisbet are hardly tearing up trees in the Championship and Brown’s 1 goal was against Gillingham.  It’s mediocre players keeping him out, not a Law, Dalglish, Archibald, Johnston, or McCoist. 

You aren't listening are you?

 

Scotland are not struggling, and not struggling for goals, where are they coming from?

[Mikey1874]

Scotland qualifying goals

 

13 midfielders

2 strikers

1 defender

1 OG

[Thomaso]

58 minutes ago, tiger Rudi said:

Where in my post does it even infer that Clarke reads this fekn forum? He's got his own eyes, he's got his own "scouts" or any word you want to call them. The difference between Shanks now and the beginning of the season is night and day. It doesn't need an absolute rocket to see that! 

 

[soonbe110]

56 minutes ago, Luckies1874 said:

 

As I said I was agreeing with his overall premise and the fact he is capable of taking off his maroon and white jammies. I suspect you wear yours 24-7!  Of course I believe Shankland to be a good finisher as I have said throughout this thread. Additionally I think he will be on the plane to Germany fitness permitting and if he continues to do the business for Hearts. Few seem to agree so we will see one the coming months. 

Imo he will need to score a lot of goals in next 6 months and, unfortunately, probably have to change the colour of his club shirt to get on that plane.  Expect the likes of Doak, Harvey to jump ahead in the queue 

[i wish jj was my dad]

3 hours ago, Sooks said:

He was rotten . His positioning and movement off the ball were hopeless and he was so easily dispossessed it was unreal 

I thought so too. He looked completely out of his depth. 

[boag1874]

48 minutes ago, Hearts1975 said:

Absolutely. 

I also wonder if anything will break with the Newcastle lads between now and March. 

There are 3 or 4 who could potentially jump ship and come to us. 

If any of them do, you would think that they would almost certainly be taking a spot on the plane 

Whether that's the right thing to do (or not) remains to be seen

And if so, who gets left out .... 

Barnes or Gordon should definitely be on the plane if they make themselves available for Scotland. Harsh on whoever misses out but you can't ignore that level of quality when it becomes available. One of them running off of Dykes in our favoured 5-3-2 system would give us something no-one else in the squad could really replicate.

[Fozzyonthefence]

1 minute ago, Lord Beni of Gorgie said:

You aren't listening are you?

 

Scotland are not struggling, and not struggling for goals, where are they coming from?

I’m listening but your argument about not hitting the corners in training drills was bizarre to say the least.  
 

We were struggling for goals recently albeit against strong opposition (England, Spain, France).  Then Shankland got us out of jail v Georgia.  Last night we were fortunate with a lucky penalty and lucky own goal, 3rd goal was well worked though.  We didn’t crest much during the 90 minutes though.  I do agree we have more problems at the back at the moment due to injuries.  But who’s to say we wouldn’t score more goals by playing strikers who actually know where the back of the net is?  I wonder why that doesn’t catch on with other countries.  The point is we know unless we try. 

[Fozzyonthefence]

1 hour ago, Lord Beni of Gorgie said:

Yip, one thing you notice during a warm up in an international to one at Tynecastle is the intensity and detail. It is indeed a different level, and that will apply from the minute you go through the door. Suddenly training with guys who are playing elite football, hardly worthy of your giggles now, is it?

Ffs, are we picking strikers based on shooting drills rather than what they do in actual games?!  How many goals / points do you get for scoring in shooting exercises?  Shankland hits the corner of the goals when it matters.  Dykes,  Adams,  Brown not so much and are more likely to hit the corner flags!

 

Edited November 20 by Fozzyonthefence

[DalryJambo]

2 hours ago, Luckies1874 said:

 

There are 4 friendlies, 2 in March, 2 in June. 

 

Shankland is not going to be a starter for us. I don't understand how that isn't obvious. We all love Shanks, he's Hearts Captain and current talisman but the national coach is not going to rip up the way our team plays for Lawrence Shankland, c'mon man! A way of playing that has been hugely successful, relatively speaking. Unless both are injured we will be going with Dykes or Adams starting matches, that much is patently clear, the side is geared around that and allows your McTominay's and McGinn's to do what they have been doing!  Shankland can still be hugely important to the squad and he has underlined his worth in the last few days. He is in a far stronger place now than he was on Thursday afternoon as he has proven his absolute value. Brown completely failed to add anything last night. 

 

Coming on for the last 20 minutes against tired defenders could be the perfect condotions for Shankland to bag a goal or 2 across 3 group games.

[ArcticJambo]

16 minutes ago, Luckies1874 said:

 

How was trying Brown stubborn? It was his first start!!!  He had literally never picked him before to start a game! Just because we wanted to see Shankland start doesn't make it a stubborn decision. He, rightly or wrongly and given his record he deserves the benefit of the doubt, wanted to see what Brown had. It turned out not very much which was actually a bonus for Shankland given he had shown the country exactly what he can contribute a few days earlier. I'd love to hear more evidence of Clarke's supposed misplaced loyalty and stubborn approach. Who are all these players who are being left out by him?! 

 

Is Brown ahead of Dyke? Nope!

Is Brown ahead of Adams? Nope!

Will Brown play instead of either of these players if either are fit? Nope!

Ergo, Brown ain't playing at the Finals! Clarke knows this, heck even my elderly neighbours know this, and they dont do football.

 

Yet, we have another, somewhat different footballer, who hasn't started either, but who Clarke 'relies' on to get us a goal when needed. He knows he's a goalscorer, heck even my elderly enighbours know he's a goalscorer (not just in training!), and they don't do football.

Nope, wasn't going to try him from the start or even give him a decent shift, heck wan't even going to bring him on full stop.

 

^^^ That is all past! What decisions Clarke makes in the future is, well for the future.

 

He has already decided how he will play and that will be with Dykes, 'trying' Shankland would only complicate matters I reckon. Not trying our goalscorer imo is down to pure bloody stubbornness, and frankly I think it's negligent.

[ArcticJambo]

17 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

Scotland qualifying goals

 

13 midfielders

2 strikers

1 defender

1 OG

Dykes vs like 12 midfielders, I wonder why!

[tiger Rudi]

10 minutes ago, Thomaso said:

 

Yes, noticed himself that Shankland was not playing to his best, and was suffering a barren spell, I wasn't inferring that Clarke was paying a blind bit of attention to a fans bloody forum. Jeez.

Considering Naismith was Clarke's coach, it's quite easy to see where he would get up to date trusted information on Shankland without seeing him play in the flesh. 

 

[Luckies1874]

28 minutes ago, ArcticJambo said:

 

Is Brown ahead of Dyke? Nope!

Is Brown ahead of Adams? Nope!

Will Brown play instead of either of these players if either are fit? Nope!

Ergo, Brown ain't playing at the Finals! Clarke knows this, heck even my elderly neighbours know this, and they dont do football.

 

Yet, we have another, somewhat different footballer, who hasn't started either, but who Clarke 'relies' on to get us a goal when needed. He knows he's a goalscorer, heck even my elderly enighbours know he's a goalscorer (not just in training!), and they don't do football.

Nope, wasn't going to try him from the start or even give him a decent shift, heck wan't even going to bring him on full stop.

 

^^^ That is all past! What decisions Clarke makes in the future is, well for the future.

 

He has already decided how he will play and that will be with Dykes, 'trying' Shankland would only complicate matters I reckon. Not trying our goalscorer imo is down to pure bloody stubbornness, and frankly I think it's negligent.

 

 

I believe the lack of game time actually helped Shankland in this international window. He came on and scored a goal and showed without question he is our best bet as a last throw of the dice, a guy who can't come up with something. He is being lauded for that and judged on title else as there is noting to judge. He may have had a nightmare in the conditions and with half a B side in last night but he didn't have to perform, he'd done what he is good at and laid down a marker. Brown got the start last night so Clarke could have a look at him as an option instead of one of either Dykes or Adams. He failed his audition and it was obvious he failed, not even close.

 

March will now be interesting. The friendlies are important but of curse some of the guys will be heavily involved in club football at a key stage of the season sir whether we will be at full strength is debatable. What Lawrence Shankland needs to do is return to Hearts and play like a man possessed, in the same form as he has been over the last month. Score goals. He's better than that than the likes of Brown and Nisbet anyway and he's got a far better chance of doing it playing in our team and getting the headlines than Luton or Millwall. Do that and he will go to Germany. I'm confident that's what will happen. 

[Gorgierools]

2 minutes ago, Luckies1874 said:

 

 

I believe the lack of game time actually helped Shankland in this international window. He came on and scored a goal and showed without question he is our best bet as a last throw of the dice, a guy who can't come up with something. He is being lauded for that and judged on title else as there is noting to judge. He may have had a nightmare in the conditions and with half a B side in last night but he didn't have to perform, he'd done what he is good at and laid down a marker. Brown got the start last night so Clarke could have a look at him as an option instead of one of either Dykes or Adams. He failed his audition and it was obvious he failed, not even close.

 

March will now be interesting. The friendlies are important but of curse some of the guys will be heavily involved in club football at a key stage of the season sir whether we will be at full strength is debatable. What Lawrence Shankland needs to do is return to Hearts and play like a man possessed, in the same form as he has been over the last month. Score goals. He's better than that than the likes of Brown and Nisbet anyway and he's got a far better chance of doing it playing in our team and getting the headlines than Luton or Millwall. Do that and he will go to Germany. I'm confident that's what will happen. 

Or,he could move to the rangers and walk straight into the squad 

[Luckies1874]

8 minutes ago, Gorgierools said:

Or,he could move to the rangers and walk straight into the squad 

 

He'll be in and out the Rangers team if he does that. Would be a silly move for all sorts of reasons for both him and Hearts at least prior to the summer. 

Edited November 20 by Luckies1874

[ArcticJambo]

12 minutes ago, Luckies1874 said:

 

 

I believe the lack of game time actually helped Shankland in this international window. He came on and scored a goal and showed without question he is our best bet as a last throw of the dice, a guy who can't come up with something. He is being lauded for that and judged on title else as there is noting to judge. He may have had a nightmare in the conditions and with half a B side in last night but he didn't have to perform, he'd done what he is good at and laid down a marker. Brown got the start last night so Clarke could have a look at him as an option instead of one of either Dykes or Adams. He failed his audition and it was obvious he failed, not even close.

 

March will now be interesting. The friendlies are important but of curse some of the guys will be heavily involved in club football at a key stage of the season sir whether we will be at full strength is debatable. What Lawrence Shankland needs to do is return to Hearts and play like a man possessed, in the same form as he has been over the last month. Score goals. He's better than that than the likes of Brown and Nisbet anyway and he's got a far better chance of doing it playing in our team and getting the headlines than Luton or Millwall. Do that and he will go to Germany. I'm confident that's what will happen. 

 

That's all fair, I don't disagree. I'm just a bit skeptical with him, when it comes to anything outwith his tried and trusted formula, and that includes the personnel.  As The Big O mentioned a few pages back I too have seen (first vs N Irelend in the BHIs, east Terracing '79) far too many Scotland managers stubbornly go with those that have got them to a Finals, but overlook form players, and it's tended to backfire, typically. Hence the reason why I believe we've never made it out the group stages.

[Luckies1874]

30 minutes ago, ArcticJambo said:

 

That's all fair, I don't disagree. I'm just a bit skeptical with him, when it comes to anything outwith his tried and trusted formula, and that includes the personnel.  As The Big O mentioned a few pages back I too have seen (first vs N Irelend in the BHIs, east Terracing '79) far too many Scotland managers stubbornly go with those that have got them to a Finals, but overlook form players, and it's tended to backfire, typically. Hence the reason why I believe we've never made it out the group stages.

 

Ok so let's say you are right and putting aside there is still little reason to suggest in a limited 23 man squad he wouldn't pick Shanks ahead of Brown, who is it that you believe he will show loyalty over? And remember this is a group of players who have given everything for him and us.  Who is coming from nowhere over the next 6 months to make his life impossible and his decision a difficult one?  I've read that he will forgo a form player to stick with what got us here. Cards on the table, who are these players? 

 

Doak's been discussed. With only 23 to pick, I can't see it unless he goes out on loan. He was still 17 last week. Neither Liverpool or Scotland are rushing him.

 

Barnes will be in the squad if (1) he changes allegiance (2) he's fit. For me that would be in place of Jack and any other midfield option. 

 

Who else is there? Doig, Taylor, Ralston, Cooper, Nisbet and Brown all won't make it - assuming no injuries to key players. I just don't see who else there could be that is going to be so on form that those who deserve squad places will be displaced;  Turnbull becomes more influential for Celtic?  McKay goes ballistic at Hearts? Really clutching at straws. A narrative is being made up where there isn't one. 

Edited November 20 by Luckies1874

[ArcticJambo]

I th

17 minutes ago, Luckies1874 said:

 

Ok so let's say you are right and putting aside there is still little reason to suggest in a limited 23 man squad he wouldn't pick Shanks ahead of Brown, who is it that you believe he will show loyalty over? And remember this is a group of players who have given everything for him and us.  Who is coming from nowhere over the next 6 months to make his life impossible and his decision a difficult one?  I've read that he will forgo a form player to stick with what got us here. Cards on the table, who are these players? 

 

Doak's been discussed. With only 23 to pick, I can't see it unless he goes out on loan. He was still 17 last week. Neither Liverpool or Scotland are rushing him.

 

Barnes will be in the squad if (1) he changes allegiance (2) he's fit. For me that would be in place of Jack and any other midfield option. 

 

Who else is there? Doig, Taylor, Ralston, Cooper, Nisbet and Brown all won't make it - assuming no injuries to key players. I just don't see who else there could be that is going to be so on form that those who deserve squad places will be displaced;  Turnbull becomes more influential for Celtic?  McKay goes ballistic at Hearts? Really clutching at straws. A narrative is being made up where there isn't one. 

I think you'e getting a bit too deep on this one. Many believe Shanks was ripe to play, being a slightly different type of forward outwith what we've typically seen from Clarke to date. It's really just as simple as that!  I don' think most folks are clamouring for leftfield choices elsewhere, as you say there aren't really any. It's probably more the way he continues to play with the same players, when perhaps (open to discussion of course) a player here or there could have been given more of a chance (to shine/improve the team).

 

Tbqh with you, I'm not overly bothered when it comes to Scotland games now, I'll pay a bit of lip service to the squad, watch the games more or less while surfing other stuff, I'm not there analysing performances, taking notes. I don't follow the squad's domestic games much so have no real idea if Hickey is getting rinsed half the time in the EPL or even what div QPR are in these days.  I see Macgregor at Tynie, and he's usually influentual, I saw Nisbet score on Clark direct from seated right in line lower X and wondered wtf is he doing, Nisbet was on a wee purple patch then but not a patch on what I have see Shanks do over the past two seasons, so like many on here I guess, we're all a bit perplexed why a man of supposed Scotland NT footballing genius seems too stubborn to try out one of Scotland's best domestic golascorers for any more than 10 mins at the end of a game.

 

That's it really, Luckies1874. I don't think there's much of a narrative beyond that, on these pages, nor on Scottish football forums, from pundits, etc

[Luckies1874]

4 minutes ago, ArcticJambo said:

I th

I think you'e getting a bit too deep on this one. Many believe Shanks was ripe to play, being a slightly different type of forward outwith what we've typically seen from Clarke to date. It's really just as simple as that!  I don' think most folks are clamouring for leftfield choices elsewhere, as you say there aren't really any. It's probably more the way he continues to play with the same players, when perhaps (open to discussion of course) a player here or there could have been given more of a chance (to shine/improve the team).

 

Tbqh with you, I'm not overly bothered when it comes to Scotland games now, I'll pay a bit of lip service to the squad, watch the games more or less while surfing other stuff, I'm not there analysing performances, taking notes. I don't follow the squad's domestic games much so have no real idea if Hickey is getting rinsed half the time in the EPL or even what div QPR are in these days.  I see Macgregor at Tynie, and he's usually influentual, I saw Nisbet score on Clark direct from seated right in line lower X and wondered wtf is he doing, Nisbet was on a wee purple patch then but not a patch on what I have see Shanks do over the past two seasons, so like many on here I guess, we're all a bit perplexed why a man of supposed Scotland NT footballing genius seems too stubborn to try out one of Scotland's best domestic golascorers for any more than 10 mins at the end of a game.

 

That's it really, Luckies1874. I don't think there's much of a narrative beyond that, on these pages, nor on Scottish football forums, from pundits, etc

 

 

Totally reasonable post but not really what you said in the post that I responded to, "far too many Scotland managers stubbornly go with those that have got them to a Finals, but overlook form players, and it's tended to backfire". All I've asked in response to people who seem to believe he is too loyal or stubborn is evidence of that and who these players he is going to overlook are. And really nobody has come with a name never mind evidence of him being overly loyal to players who have got us to two major finals. It's easy to come out with perceptions, there was even someone talking about how the Old Firm still dominate Clarke's thinking, like what, he's got about 3 Rantic players in the squad!  I get the Shankland ire on here, by far the largest Hearts fans forum but I still believe he is in line to go, unless of course someone better appears from out of the blue! 😉

[ArcticJambo]

4 minutes ago, Luckies1874 said:

 

 

Totally reasonable post but not really what you said in the post that I responded to, "far too many Scotland managers stubbornly go with those that have got them to a Finals, but overlook form players, and it's tended to backfire". All I've asked in response to people who seem to believe he is too loyal or stubborn is evidence of that and who these players he is going to overlook are. And really nobody has come with a name never mind evidence of him being overly loyal to players who have got us to two major finals. It's easy to come out with perceptions, there was even someone talking about how the Old Firm still dominate Clarke's thinking, like what, he's got about 3 Rantic players in the squad!  I get the Shankland ire on here, by far the largest Hearts fans forum but I still believe he is in line to go, unless of course someone better appears from out of the blue! 😉

 

Yeah, it's not always easy sometimes to get the real gist of what folks are arguing/discussing, or the nuance really. I don't really have any real gripe with your defence or stance on the matter, throughout this thread, it's well argued and few rationally minded would disagree.  I think it is mainly bourne out of frustration, especially wrt Shanks. Of course, to date we arguably did screw up the last Finals, and dare I say it there were a couple of swelection decisions in that lot that you could throw in the stubborn refusal to diverge category. Anyway, I don't want to get into it if I'm honest.

 

I should clarify wrt the bit you quoted (above) from my one my previous posts; what I meant to add was that typically in mine eyes was the Scotland managers of the past always tended to go the safe option and select the old guard (and in some cases they were actually quite old, past it imo!) who had typically done us okay, instead of blooding a younger set of up-and-coming players, even if it meant we completely missed out on qualification as opposed to just missing out, or when we did qualify, the set that went to the Finals, shit the bed (coz they were even older)!  I always felt it would have been worthwhile to forsake one or two competitions to plan for 4-8yrs down the line with a generally young set of hungry players. Is that what some see with Clarke the now? Maybe.

 

Anyway ....

[dav1e]

I lost respect for Clarke when he put Shanks on in the 89th minute ,would have preferred if he didn't get on at all.

I have a feeling even if LS is top scorer on 20+ goals he still won't be going to Germany. 

Would be Scotlands loss imo.

 

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

2 hours ago, Fozzyonthefence said:

Ffs, are we picking strikers based on shooting drills rather than what they do in actual games?!  How many goals / points do you get for scoring in shooting exercises?  Shankland hits the corner of the goals when it matters.  Dykes,  Adams,  Brown not so much and are more likely to hit the corner flags!

 

Aye ok, its purely on that if thats what you want to make of it.

 

Here are some points to consider, these are generic points and not aimed at individuals, important to be objective and not subjective.

 

- Scotland are not struggling or in need of a change of direction

 

- International players require to step up levels. This goes for entire camp, training included

 

- Players will be picked to suit the shape and style of the team. Particularly when a team is doing well it will choose the correct tools to fit that team

 

- Players will be picked to suit the calibre of opponent

 

- Players who are more likely to be trusted to the above 3 points, are those who "perceived" to have the most experience playing with or against top level opposition

 

- There are 12 subs allowing endless options and different styles should the very first point

 

These points are not exclusive to Scotland.

 

My final word, would love to see him play, I cant wait, I was over the moon when he came on Thursday and ecstatic, proud, elated when he scored. However Scotland are in a very good place for good reasons, I hope our players can fit in when they get that chance.

 

[Luckies1874]

36 minutes ago, ArcticJambo said:

 

Yeah, it's not always easy sometimes to get the real gist of what folks are arguing/discussing, or the nuance really. I don't really have any real gripe with your defence or stance on the matter, throughout this thread, it's well argued and few rationally minded would disagree.  I think it is mainly bourne out of frustration, especially wrt Shanks. Of course, to date we arguably did screw up the last Finals, and dare I say it there were a couple of swelection decisions in that lot that you could throw in the stubborn refusal to diverge category. Anyway, I don't want to get into it if I'm honest.

 

I should clarify wrt the bit you quoted (above) from my one my previous posts; what I meant to add was that typically in mine eyes was the Scotland managers of the past always tended to go the safe option and select the old guard (and in some cases they were actually quite old, past it imo!) who had typically done us okay, instead of blooding a younger set of up-and-coming players, even if it meant we completely missed out on qualification as opposed to just missing out, or when we did qualify, the set that went to the Finals, shit the bed (coz they were even older)!  I always felt it would have been worthwhile to forsake one or two competitions to plan for 4-8yrs down the line with a generally young set of hungry players. Is that what some see with Clarke the now? Maybe.

 

Anyway ....

 

 

Good post man, very well explained!  

[Luckies1874]

16 minutes ago, Lord Beni of Gorgie said:

Aye ok, its purely on that if thats what you want to make of it.

 

Here are some points to consider, these are generic points and not aimed at individuals, important to be objective and not subjective.

 

- Scotland are not struggling or in need of a change of direction

 

- International players require to step up levels. This goes for entire camp, training included

 

- Players will be picked to suit the shape and style of the team. Particularly when a team is doing well it will choose the correct tools to fit that team

 

- Players will be picked to suit the calibre of opponent

 

- Players who are more likely to be trusted to the above 3 points, are those who "perceived" to have the most experience playing with or against top level opposition

 

- There are 12 subs allowing endless options and different styles should the very first point

 

These points are not exclusive to Scotland.

 

My final word, would love to see him play, I cant wait, I was over the moon when he came on Thursday and ecstatic, proud, elated when he scored. However Scotland are in a very good place for good reasons, I hope our players can fit in when they get that chance.

 

 

 

  Excellent post.

[Hearts1975]

10 hours ago, Luckies1874 said:

 

Who would be your back 3 right now for Germany? 

 

Assuming everyone available and it was being picked right now I'm thinking this team is most likely to start

 

Gunn

 

Porteous   Hanley   Tierney

Hickey                                          Robertson 

McGregor  Gimour

McGinn              McTominay 

Dykes    

 

 

Gordon could still challenge Gunn but that's entirely up to (i) Stevie Naismith and (ii) how things goes when he gets into our side. 

There could be debate as to the back 3 combo. Possible Hendry is in contention. McKenna is certainly going to need to leave Forest to play if he wants considered more than a squad player. 

Adams and Dykes (putting aside all the Shanks talk for a moment) are likely competing for the starting role.

Harvey Barnes (the only one of the Newcastle 4 I can see at all likely) could change things but that is going to need to see a commitment soon.

 

Yep. Hendry for Hanley. I think he can carry the ball out a bit better as well. 

 

I'm not on the wind up, I promise! And I hear what you are saying, but I still think shanks gives us a better goal threat up top. It's goals that we will need.

 

I think he would work hard enough that the ball doesn't suddenly come back at us like a ping pong ball as some may think.

 

I get Dykes gives us the hold up option, and suits the way we play as a team, but I do not believe that we would lose the way we play as a unit, by simply replacing dykes, with shanks, but he would be far more likely to take a chance and when presented .... especially on the deck.

 

We have to be far more clinical when we get chances. We just won't be in the position to not be clinical in the box. I know we have threats from midfield but this isn't maroon tinted glasses when I say that I'm trying to apply logic to this, and nothing else.

 

Don't get me wrong. Clarke will do what you said and go with dykes and adams, I don't disagree there

 

The rest of your line up is spot on imo  

[Hearts1975]

9 hours ago, boag1874 said:

Barnes or Gordon should definitely be on the plane if they make themselves available for Scotland. Harsh on whoever misses out but you can't ignore that level of quality when it becomes available. One of them running off of Dykes in our favoured 5-3-2 system would give us something no-one else in the squad could really replicate.

When you say it like that, it's hard to argue the point in all honesty 

I was in 2 minds but your post makes perfect sense 👌

 

[Luckies1874]

3 minutes ago, Hearts1975 said:

Yep. Hendry for Hanley. I think he can carry the ball out a bit better as well. 

 

I'm not on the wind up, I promise! And I hear what you are saying, but I still think shanks gives us a better goal threat up top. It's goals that we will need.

 

I think he would work hard enough that the ball doesn't suddenly come back at us like a ping pong ball as some may think.

 

I get Dykes gives us the hold up option, and suits the way we play as a team, but I do not believe that we would lose the way we play as a unit, by simply replacing dykes, with shanks, but he would be far more likely to take a chance and when presented .... especially on the deck.

 

We have to be far more clinical when we get chances. We just won't be in the position to not be clinical in the box. I know we have threats from midfield but this isn't maroon tinted glasses when I say that I'm trying to apply logic to this, and nothing else.

 

Don't get me wrong. Clarke will do what you said and go with dykes and adams, I don't disagree there

 

The rest of your line up is spot on imo  

 

 

We scored 17 goals in 8 qualifiers mate. Creating and scoring hasn't been an issue. The way we play allows others out with the front player to get in the box and score goals. Read @Lord Beni of Gorgie posts from earlier, he explains how the team is setup really well. Shankland is clearly a better striker (goalscorer) than Adams or Dykes but he isn't a better forward and that is the key differential when it comes to understanding what Clarke wants, rightly or wrongly, from that position, to start matches. 

[ǝǝɥʇᴉɯS]

Our strikers aren't goal scorers but the way we play means they create space and opportunities for our goal scoring midfield. Imo shanks booked his flight with that goal though, he proved that he's the one different option that can nick a goal, while not really fitting the overall style as well as others.