Harvey Barnes: Scotland's Got Options...

[Deodato]

JKB, 

 

One of the weird things about Scotland being genuinely good again, is that good international teams attract good interest in players who could qualify for them. Hearing the brilliant Tom English on BBC Radio Scotland last night made me think about this. If Harvey Barnes opted for the blue jersey, what would that do to our prospects. Sticking with Newcastle (which was part of Scotland 1139 to 1157), there's chat that Anthony Gordon also has options to consider and the England bus looks pretty damn full. Where do we stand on the qualification rules for the round ball, given the oval ball across the Wester Approach road has at least four South Africans in their first fifteen (and Huw Jones, Edinburgh born with a welsh name). 

 

Stepping back, in the music industry we have this expression about hits: the best thing about a record label having a hit is that all the good artists want to sign for you - that is, self selection solves your problem. I feel a bit of that is happening thanks to Steve Clarke's work. 

 

Deodato

 

 

[TexasAndy]

I think the difference between Rugby and Football is that you can qualify for a country based on a residency basis in rugby whereas you can only qualify via family tree for football.  Either way I'm not precious about the legalities.  If someone wants to play for Scotland in either sport I'm happy for them to be considered.

[indianajones]

Granny rule is fine.

 

Rugby take the absolute pish with it in all honesty. 

 

I'd take Gordon and Barnes in the Scotland team in a second. 

 

[PortyJambo]

We're also trying to persuade 17 year old Archie Gray to swap allegiance to Scotland to England but, even though his dad, grandfather and great uncle all played for Scotland, it seems like England want to hold on to him.

 

He was born in England (as many sons of ex-Scottish players will have been) but you would think his family history would make him more inclined towards the dark blue jersey.

[BigAlim]

Harvey Barnes, Anthony Gordon, Elliott Anderson and Tino Livramento are all eligible for Scotland. Short drive for them at least

[Malinga the Swinga]

If they are eligible and good enough and they want to play for Scotland, then happy to have them.

In the end, it's the badge that matters.

[Pasquale for King]

50 minutes ago, TexasAndy said:

I think the difference between Rugby and Football is that you can qualify for a country based on a residency basis in rugby whereas you can only qualify via family tree for football.  Either way I'm not precious about the legalities.  If someone wants to play for Scotland in either sport I'm happy for them to be considered.

I think John Barnes might prove you wrong there. 
Anyone that’s lived and played in our league for 5 years used to be able play football for Scotland, not sure if that’s changed. 

[jamboj]

My view would be you should only play for a nation if you're genuinely proud to do so and have a genuine personal connection to it. People can certainly have that feeling for more than one nation, so if they choose to play Scotland instead of England (or whoever else) in those circumstances, then great. 

 

By contrast, if their motivation to play for Scotland is because they want to play international football and have no personal connection to the nation (eg pride to wear the shirt) then it would be a 'no' from me. 

 

Obviously that's impossible to police but it's where I would come from 

[Pasquale for King]

12 minutes ago, BigAlim said:

Harvey Barnes, Anthony Gordon, Elliott Anderson and Tino Livramento are all eligible for Scotland. Short drive for them at least

One good thing about England producing so many good players just now, and obviously qualifying for the Euros. 

[Pasquale for King]

37 minutes ago, PortyJambo said:

We're also trying to persuade 17 year old Archie Gray to swap allegiance to Scotland to England but, even though his dad, grandfather and great uncle all played for Scotland, it seems like England want to hold on to him.

 

He was born in England (as many sons of ex-Scottish players will have been) but you would think his family history would make him more inclined towards the dark blue jersey.

A failure of parenting if he doesn’t. 

[Costanza]

Don't like the grandparent rule if I'm honest. Would be birthplace,  parentage and residency since school age if up to me, albeit that obviously wouldn't help us.

[Locky]

21 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

I think John Barnes might prove you wrong there. 
Anyone that’s lived and played in our league for 5 years used to be able play football for Scotland, not sure if that’s changed. 

I recall there being a push for Nacho Novo to get a Scotland call up c. 2007 because he’d lived here long enough to qualify for citizenship. Not sure if the rules have changed on that one, but I recall that once you were eligible for a UK passport and received citizenship, you could opt to play for any of the home nations. 
 

The story of Maik Taylor is another interesting one. Born in Germany to British parents, but went on to become one of Northern Ireland’s most capped players with zero connection to the country whatsoever.

[A_A wehatethehibs]

33 minutes ago, Costanza said:

Don't like the grandparent rule if I'm honest. Would be birthplace,  parentage and residency since school age if up to me, albeit that obviously wouldn't help us.

Why make it so complicated. Just do it on passport. Oh…. ****

[Unknown user]

1 hour ago, PortyJambo said:

We're also trying to persuade 17 year old Archie Gray to swap allegiance to Scotland to England but, even though his dad, grandfather and great uncle all played for Scotland, it seems like England want to hold on to him.

 

He was born in England (as many sons of ex-Scottish players will have been) but you would think his family history would make him more inclined towards the dark blue jersey.

 

I hate all this stuff, but as soon as they pull on the dark blue I don't care any more.

 

Gray though, from what I've read he's captain of England's 18s and we have more chance of capping Messi

[milky_26]

40 minutes ago, Rick James said:

I recall there being a push for Nacho Novo to get a Scotland call up c. 2007 because he’d lived here long enough to qualify for citizenship. Not sure if the rules have changed on that one, but I recall that once you were eligible for a UK passport and received citizenship, you could opt to play for any of the home nations. 
 

The story of Maik Taylor is another interesting one. Born in Germany to British parents, but went on to become one of Northern Ireland’s most capped players with zero connection to the country whatsoever.

Was it Novo as well? I can remember the call for amoruso to play for Scotland around that time but not the novo ones

[Absolute Scenes]

I think early on it’s clear players are not good enough to get into the squad to play for England. Anderson and Gordon are playing in a great Newcastle team and are great players, but in all honesty, they are no bellinghams, and they are not taking the spot of the others ahead of them, even on the England bench. If they have a desire to play international football, and a desire to play at the euros, and have a sense of pride in that they can play for Scotland, then they really should be considering it.  Germany euros are fast approaching and I doubt either will pip anyone’s spot at present in the England squad. 

As much as I despise Boyle, I actually rate what he’s done. Scotland had many chances to call him up but he was tired waiting around so jumped at the chance to play for the Aussies. Cummings is the same. 

 

Edited November 17, 2023 by Absolute Scenes

[lou]

1 hour ago, PortyJambo said:

We're also trying to persuade 17 year old Archie Gray to swap allegiance to Scotland to England but, even though his dad, grandfather and great uncle all played for Scotland, it seems like England want to hold on to him.

 

He was born in England (as many sons of ex-Scottish players will have been) but you would think his family history would make him more inclined towards the dark blue jersey.

Someone told me at the Leeds game,  he is desperate to play for Scotland 

[stirlo]

It's a tricky area. Scott McTominay was being pursued by England but didn't take long to commit to Scotland and has been absolutely immense. But McTominay is half Scottish as his dad is Scottish and there's nothing tenuous about his link to Scotland nor his strength of feeling for the country. Lyndon Dykes has two Scottish parents and chose Scotland when he could quite easily have gone with Australia. By contrast there have been other players in the past who have been capped by Scotland who could hardly point to Scotland on a map.

 

The rule is what it is though and a country of Scotland's size would be foolish not to take advantage of it. I do feel though that the guys that should go to the Euros are the guys that have got us there. I don't like the idea of players who have refused to commit to Scotland up to this point being parachuted in just in time for the party. The start of a qualification campaign is the time to bring in the new guys, that way you also know there is some level of commitment rather than just wanting to add a major tournament to their CV.

[Luckies1874]

Think Barnes, if fit, is the one that is by far the most likely right now given stage of career and who he is competing against for an England spot. I think he could be very tempted to get on board. 
 

The others are all younger and have regularly and recently been involved in the English youth teams. It’s debatable, at least currently, if any are going to be good enough to be starters for England but each perhaps have the potential to be squad players in due course. Its whether they are happy to wait it out and take their chances with that over the next year or two or want to become key players for us and have long international careers. Going to be interesting to watch how it plays out. 

[tiger Rudi]

Imagine having Barnes pace coming off the left. Mouth watering. It's something our squad actually lacks just now, a speed merchant who can play wide or through the middle. If only we had the likes of a John Robertson(the Forest one) available just now. When was the last time we had a player like him? 

[Unknown user]

33 minutes ago, lou said:

Someone told me at the Leeds game,  he is desperate to play for Scotland 

 

He's captain of their 18s, and played for 20s last night although he's still 17.

 

He could choose Scotland if he wants, but it seems pretty clear who he's chosen.

[db211833]

2 hours ago, TexasAndy said:

I think the difference between Rugby and Football is that you can qualify for a country based on a residency basis in rugby whereas you can only qualify via family tree for football.  Either way I'm not precious about the legalities.  If someone wants to play for Scotland in either sport I'm happy for them to be considered.

I might be wrong but I think FIFA has changed the rules over the years.

In 2004 it was 2 years residency and was subsequently increased to 5 years in 2007.

Source, wikipedia so might be garbage.

[hmfc_liam06]

The Scottish lass on TalkSport nailed it for me. If they feel Scottish then absolutely, in you come. But if you’re just looking for an easy ticket to play in the Euros then it’s a thanks but no thanks.

[kingantti1874]

Tino Livramento is another.  Scottish mum 

[XB52]

7 minutes ago, hmfc_liam06 said:

The Scottish lass on TalkSport nailed it for me. If they feel Scottish then absolutely, in you come. But if you’re just looking for an easy ticket to play in the Euros then it’s a thanks but no thanks.

My thinking too. I hate the grandparent rule, should be, born here, parent born here or lived here for over 5 years from a young age

[hmfc_liam06]

4 minutes ago, XB52 said:

My thinking too. I hate the grandparent rule, should be, born here, parent born here or lived here for over 5 years from a young age

Another thing for me is where were Barnes, Gordon etc at the beginning of qualifying? They’re only making noise now as it’s an easy way to the Euros. Entirely unfair on the boys that got us there. If they want, come in for the start of the WC qualifiers.

 

I’ve no issue with the grandparent rule as such, but you should still feel as if you belong to the country you represent. 
 

McTominay sounds as English as they come but you can tell how much it means to him playing for Scotland, he 100% feels Scottish in that regard.

[Diadora Van Basten]

Guys like Barnes and Gordon yes.

 

Unfortunately we have also had some awful players like Paul Devlin who were promoted above their ability just because they played in England and these type of players should be avoided.

[Unknown user]

1 minute ago, Diadora Van Basten said:

Guys like Barnes and Gordon yes.

 

Unfortunately we have also had some awful players like Paul Devlin who were promoted above their ability just because they played in England and these type of players should be avoided.

 

This is true, but anyone who shows a bit of heart wins me over.

Principles are great, but winning's better.

[Locky]

1 hour ago, milky_26 said:

Was it Novo as well? I can remember the call for amoruso to play for Scotland around that time but not the novo ones

Aye I vaguely mind they did a piece on it on Reporting Scotland’s evening news. A pretty average player by all means and was purely speculation but made prime time news because he played for Rangers. 

[Auld Reekin']

1 hour ago, milky_26 said:

Was it Novo as well? I can remember the call for amoruso to play for Scotland around that time but not the novo ones

 

Did "the call" not come mainly from Amoruso himself, presumably after a few pints of Baileys?  

 

26 minutes ago, hmfc_liam06 said:

McTominay sounds as English as they come but you can tell how much it means to him playing for Scotland, he 100% feels Scottish in that regard.

 

 

Edited November 17, 2023 by Auld Reekin'

[HamishMcGonagall]

Reminds me of David Johnson, the old Ipswich player. Played for Jamaica, England B, was in a Wales squad for a qualifier then was called up for Scotland but it turned out he wasn't eligible to play for us at all.

[jamboinglasgow]

Doesn't bother me if they have played in England youth side up to now. I know why people would be miffed if they think players are just declaring to play for the Euros but the crucial thing is once they play for us in a competitive game, they cant change their mind and go and play for England. So if they have declared for us and actually played then they have done it with full thought so normally that means they will want to make sure they made the right decision.

 

If we got Harvey Barnes or Anthony Gordon, then they would big additions for us. So if we can get quality players to declare then it would make a big difference. Look at McTominay and the impact he has made as he has grown with the team.

 

I understand if you were born in England, getting an English cap is a great honour of a boyhood dream, but I do wonder if English born players are going to start realising that now with the depth of talent that England can pick, that getting international appearances for the senior team is hard (just look at the players they leave out.) Players may get the odd cap if the is injury issues, but getting two England caps where you come off the bench in friendlies better than notching up 50 or 60 caps for Scotland where you play at competitions, get love from Scottish fans everywhere and be seen as a main man in the team? 

 

Players will see Southgate saying that will get their chance sometime, but an international manager will never limit the number of players he has available. Hopefully players see through this and join  Scotland. 

[Luckies1874]

5 minutes ago, jamboinglasgow said:

Doesn't bother me if they have played in England youth side up to now. I know why people would be miffed if they think players are just declaring to play for the Euros but the crucial thing is once they play for us in a competitive game, they cant change their mind and go and play for England. So if they have declared for us and actually played then they have done it with full thought so normally that means they will want to make sure they made the right decision.

 

If we got Harvey Barnes or Anthony Gordon, then they would big additions for us. So if we can get quality players to declare then it would make a big difference. Look at McTominay and the impact he has made as he has grown with the team.

 

I understand if you were born in England, getting an English cap is a great honour of a boyhood dream, but I do wonder if English born players are going to start realising that now with the depth of talent that England can pick, that getting international appearances for the senior team is hard (just look at the players they leave out.) Players may get the odd cap if the is injury issues, but getting two England caps where you come off the bench in friendlies better than notching up 50 or 60 caps for Scotland where you play at competitions, get love from Scottish fans everywhere and be seen as a main man in the team? 

 

Players will see Southgate saying that will get their chance sometime, but an international manager will never limit the number of players he has available. Hopefully players see through this and join  Scotland. 

[PapaShango]

4 hours ago, BigAlim said:

Harvey Barnes, Anthony Gordon, Elliott Anderson and Tino Livramento are all eligible for Scotland. Short drive for them at least

If we could get Gordon and Livramento they would both take us up a notch. Not sure how feasible it will be as IMO both are good enough to get in the England squad. Livramento has been man of the match just about every time I've seen him play for Newcastle and can play comfortably on both sides or in midfield. 

[Rossco]

4 hours ago, Rick James said:

I recall there being a push for Nacho Novo to get a Scotland call up c. 2007 because he’d lived here long enough to qualify for citizenship. Not sure if the rules have changed on that one, but I recall that once you were eligible for a UK passport and received citizenship, you could opt to play for any of the home nations. 
 

The story of Maik Taylor is another interesting one. Born in Germany to British parents, but went on to become one of Northern Ireland’s most capped players with zero connection to the country whatsoever.

I think I remember talk of Mikel Arteta also being touted at one point because he had played in the UK for over 5 years and had British citizenship.

 

EDIT: Looks like it was actually England, not Scotland that were interested:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2010/aug/30/scotlandfootballteam-craig-levein

Edited November 17, 2023 by Rossco

[BigAlim]

15 minutes ago, Rossco said:

I think I remember talk of Mikel Arteta also being touted at one point because he had played in the UK for over 5 years and had British citizenship.

 

EDIT: Looks like it was actually England, not Scotland that were interested:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2010/aug/30/scotlandfootballteam-craig-levein

In about 2008 I’m sure Capello was seriously considering putting Manuel Almunia in goal for England 

[Doc Rob]

6 hours ago, Rick James said:

I recall there being a push for Nacho Novo to get a Scotland call up c. 2007 because he’d lived here long enough to qualify for citizenship. Not sure if the rules have changed on that one, but I recall that once you were eligible for a UK passport and received citizenship, you could opt to play for any of the home nations. 
 

The story of Maik Taylor is another interesting one. Born in Germany to British parents, but went on to become one of Northern Ireland’s most capped players with zero connection to the country whatsoever.

Someone mentioned John Barnes. Once someone without previous ties to part of the UK gets a passport, they can select who they want to represent, and Andy Roxburgh approached him when he was a Watford player. Barnes knocked him back.

 

The Channel Islands are another odd ‘wild card’ for qualification. I’m pretty sure that both Matt Le Tissier and Graeme Le Saux were sounded out by Scotland. The oddest example was in rugby though - Budge Pountney, who was born in England and played for Northampton, qualified for Scotland because he had one grandparent born in the Channel Islands and was able to use the wild card rule to make her ‘Scottish’. Here’s the thing though. Pountney was so fearsomely committed to the Scotland cause from his first cap that everyone forgot that his qualification was essentially non-existent.

 

Regarding Archie Gray, players don’t always do what you’d expect. Elliott Anderson was capped by Scotland at every age-group level and now seems to have decided he feels English. Which is fine, but he could have let us know a bit sooner.

[Deodato]

23 hours ago, PortyJambo said:

He was born in England (as many sons of ex-Scottish players will have been) but you would think his family history would make him more inclined towards the dark blue jersey.

 

@PortyJambo hadn't considered this point before, thanks. You go back to the 70s and 80s - half of the tops teams first eleven were Scots. Nottingham Forrest being a great example: Burns, Archie, John McG, Robertson et al. If this stock breeds good stock, then there's a legacy case for bringing them home. 

[Deodato]

23 hours ago, indianajones said:

Granny rule is fine.

 

Rugby take the absolute pish with it in all honesty. 

 

I'd take Gordon and Barnes in the Scotland team in a second. 

 

 

Rugby does, but if you were a world class South African rugby player trying to make a professional career out of it - like Steyn - wouldn't you look elsewhere given your home country is falling apart. I agree @indianajones but context is required given South Africa is the nation that Scotland is recruiting from. 

[CMc]

21 hours ago, tiger Rudi said:

Imagine having Barnes pace coming off the left. Mouth watering. It's something our squad actually lacks just now, a speed merchant who can play wide or through the middle. If only we had the likes of a John Robertson(the Forest one) available just now. When was the last time we had a player like him? 

Andy Robertson, Tierney and Barnes down the left would be decent. 

[Deodato]

22 hours ago, Rick James said:

I recall there being a push for Nacho Novo to get a Scotland call up c. 2007 because he’d lived here long enough to qualify for citizenship. Not sure if the rules have changed on that one, but I recall that once you were eligible for a UK passport and received citizenship, you could opt to play for any of the home nations. 
 

The story of Maik Taylor is another interesting one. Born in Germany to British parents, but went on to become one of Northern Ireland’s most capped players with zero connection to the country whatsoever.

Nacho spoke Weegie too - I'm sure that was factored into his case. 

 

Maik Taylor @Rick James that's a big one to call out, from Wikipedia - I never knew this rule existed:

 

Taylor was born in Germany to an English father and a German mother. As a British citizen who was born abroad, FIFA eligibility rules at the time of Taylor's first international selection entitled him to represent any of the constituent countries of the United Kingdom at international level. He opted for Northern Ireland, despite having no familial connection to that country.^[23][24]

[Deodato]

21 hours ago, lou said:

Someone told me at the Leeds game,  he is desperate to play for Scotland 

 

This kid in a blue jersey. @lou that would be game on. His tackling ability is insane. Could be Jude level. 

 

 

[Deodato]

20 hours ago, Diadora Van Basten said:

Guys like Barnes and Gordon yes.

 

Unfortunately we have also had some awful players like Paul Devlin who were promoted above their ability just because they played in England and these type of players should be avoided.

Ouch, memores/nightmares. Devlin was rank. @Diadora Van Basten agreed, to be avoided - and sends an awful signal to those who really want the jersey. 

[Deodato]

18 hours ago, Rossco said:

I think I remember talk of Mikel Arteta also being touted at one point because he had played in the UK for over 5 years and had British citizenship.

 

EDIT: Looks like it was actually England, not Scotland that were interested:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2010/aug/30/scotlandfootballteam-craig-levein

 

@Rossco I'll take this chat to the Emirates next time for sure. I remember Super Mik having zero chance of playing for Spain as his position was dominated by the best players on the planet. It's all about timing. 

[skinnybob72]

Gordon plays up front, so if he decides he's Scottish just in time for the Euros whose place does he take? Shankland's? It's a no thanks from me!

[Deodato]

16 hours ago, Doc Rob said:

The oddest example was in rugby though - Budge Pountney, who was born in England and played for Northampton, qualified for Scotland because he had one grandparent born in the Channel Islands and was able to use the wild card rule to make her ‘Scottish’. Here’s the thing though. Pountney was so fearsomely committed to the Scotland cause from his first cap that everyone forgot that his qualification was essentially non-existent.

 

He was, and he faked the accent for the BBC rugby commercials too - so acting chops count for qualification as well. 

[Deodato]

Just now, skinnybob72 said:

Gordon plays up front, so if he decides he's Scottish just in time for the Euros whose place does he take? Shankland's? It's a no thanks from me!

 

Seriously? You'd have Shanks over Gords??

[Deodato]

19 hours ago, HamishMcGonagall said:

Reminds me of David Johnson, the old Ipswich player. Played for Jamaica, England B, was in a Wales squad for a qualifier then was called up for Scotland but it turned out he wasn't eligible to play for us at all.

@HamishMcGonagall what was that famous Daily Record headline in the late 90s which went something like England's new Scotland striker is actually Jamaican? 

[skinnybob72]

1 minute ago, Deodato said:

 

Seriously? You'd have Shanks over Gords??

As a Hearts fan, absolutely. Having Hearts players in the Scotland side has always made the games more interesting as you want to see your team's players do well.

[Hansel]

17 minutes ago, skinnybob72 said:

As a Hearts fan, absolutely. Having Hearts players in the Scotland side has always made the games more interesting as you want to see your team's players do well.

Shankland probably won't be a hearts player for very long anyway imo