Our playing identity

[Dazo]

8 minutes ago, Bazzas right boot said:

Surley as a club we can identify as whatever we want or believe?

 

 

The club has an identity but playing identity is a load of bollox imo. Sounds all very hibs to me. 

[Bazzas right boot]

13 minutes ago, Dazo said:

The club has an identity but playing identity is a load of bollox imo. Sounds all very hibs to me. 

 

Can we identify ourselves as Man Citeh?

[Hearts1975]

On 16/11/2023 at 11:11, Agentjambo said:

Naismith stating in a recent interview about implementing our “playing style”…

 

As an example De Zerbi,Enzo Maresca,Big Ange and Daniel Farley have gone into their new clubs and implemented a new playing style almost instantly….

Why can’t Naismith do likewise??

 

The big issue is that your managerial comparisons are looking after multi million squads. 

Players that cost millions generally have the quality to take the managers instructions on board and execute them almost immediately 

Hypothetically (as it won't happen) it would take far longer for the same guys to implement their style with our current squad. 

We can't get a comparison in reality, as it would never happen, but if it did, it would take them much longer than what it has took them with their respective squads 

 

[Agentjambo]

Just now, Hearts1975 said:

The big issue is that your managerial comparisons are looking after multi million squads. 

Players that cost millions generally have the quality to take the managers instructions on board and execute them almost immediately 

Hypothetically (as it won't happen) it would take far longer for the same guys to implement their style with our current squad. 

We can't get a comparison in reality, as it would never happen, but if it did, it would take them much longer than what it has took them with their respective squads 

 

So it’s down to footballing ability and not player intelligence?

[Hearts1975]

Just now, Agentjambo said:

So it’s down to footballing ability and not player intelligence?

It's absolutely down to footballing ability. 

Player intelligence is just one trait, along with many other traits, that goes toward the overall quality of a football player 

[Sooks]

2 minutes ago, Agentjambo said:

So it’s down to footballing ability and not player intelligence?

It is down to you get what you pay for . This applies to players coaches and managers . Experience , ability and intelligence are all cost factors 

[Hearts1975]

1 minute ago, Sooks said:

It is down to you get what you pay for . This applies to players coaches and managers . Experience , ability and intelligence are all cost factors 

100% 

[Nookie Bear]

10 minutes ago, Agentjambo said:

So it’s down to footballing ability and not player intelligence?

 

Intelligence is what separates the top players from the rest. Every professional footballer can control a ball fired at them from 50 yards...not many are able to think two or three moves ahead and do something with it.

 

It's why the top teams create space, by intelligent running and decision-making.

[Agentjambo]

8 minutes ago, Sooks said:

It is down to you get what you pay for . This applies to players coaches and managers . Experience , ability and intelligence are all cost factors 

So taking on instructions is down to how good a footballer they are and not how intelligent they are?

[Debut 4]

4 minutes ago, Sooks said:

It is down to you get what you pay for . This applies to players coaches and managers . Experience , ability and intelligence are all cost factors 

Which is true but manager influence or outlook in how he builds and nurtures a team isn’t influenced by money.  Quality of manager, yes, but there’s no legislating for how a manager may change or react to the environment he finds himself in. 
 

I think Naismith jumped the gun a little by stating how he wants to play. He didn’t know how being in the job long term would affect his approach after his short “honeymoon” period when there was no pressure, really. 

Once the rigours of a long season kick in when injuries occur, form dips, getting to know players better in different situations and results aren’t what he expects, it then tests the mettle and bravery of said manager.  
 

Im not accusing him of going into cautious mode when our current early form developed into inconsistency, but he’s finding out it’s easier to say what you want to do than actually act it out.
 

Whether that was down to him misjudging what he had at his disposal or novice manager naivety, it’s hard to tell for now.  He probably needs another couple of windows to show us the type of player he has an eye for.  

 

[Nookie Bear]

5 minutes ago, Agentjambo said:

So taking on instructions is down to how good a footballer they are and not how intelligent they are?

 

When you say "intelligence" do you mean football intelligence or their general IQ?

[Agentjambo]

2 minutes ago, Nookie Bear said:

 

When you say "intelligence" do you mean football intelligence or their general IQ?

Their general IQ.

[Sooks]

2 minutes ago, Debut 4 said:

Which is true but manager influence or outlook in how he builds and nurtures a team isn’t influenced by money.  Quality of manager, yes, but there’s no legislating for how a manager may change or react to the environment he finds himself in. 
 

I think Naismith jumped the gun a little by stating how he wants to play. He didn’t know how being in the job long term would affect his approach after his short “honeymoon” period when there was no pressure, really. 

Once the rigours of a long season kick in when injuries occur, form dips, getting to know players better in different situations and results aren’t what he expects, it then tests the mettle and bravery of said manager.  
 

Im not accusing him of going into cautious mode when our current early form developed into inconsistency, but he’s finding out it’s easier to say what you want to do than actually act it out.
 

Whether that was down to him misjudging what he had at his disposal or novice manager naivety, it’s hard to tell for now.  He probably needs another couple of windows to show us the type of player he has an eye for.  

 

I think it was novice naivety tbh . That is not to say he can not learn with experience . I just find this whole identity and style a bit of a red herring . A good manager will find a way of playing that gets the best out of the squad of players they have at their disposal and that then becomes the style or identity , rather than trying to impose an idealistic style of play on the squad . You can start to trade players to tweak the way you play over a few windows , but you would not just play a way that does not get the best out of your current best players because you want to be identified in a particular way 

[Nookie Bear]

Just now, Agentjambo said:

Their general IQ.

 

That's irrelevant, surely.

 

Some of the best players in the world are very poorly educated but can read a football match like it's a complex equation. Pat Nevin is known for reading a book!

[Agentjambo]

1 minute ago, Nookie Bear said:

 

That's irrelevant, surely.

 

Some of the best players in the world are very poorly educated but can read a football match like it's a complex equation. Pat Nevin is known for reading a book!

I’ve seen teams at a lower level than us playing with a specific style….how does that equate?

[Nookie Bear]

2 minutes ago, Agentjambo said:

I’ve seen teams at a lower level than us playing with a specific style….how does that equate?

 

Which teams?

[Sooks]

Just now, Agentjambo said:

I’ve seen teams at a lower level than us playing with a specific style….how does that equate?

Out of interest , who ?

 

You need to take in to account the quality of opposition as well . Hard to impose a style of play on a team that has you chasing shadows for 90 minutes for example . Play a team of equal or lesser quality and you have the opportunity to dictate the play and set the intensity level ect 

 

[Agentjambo]

5 minutes ago, Nookie Bear said:

 

Which teams?

I know Airdrie do it,Stockport and notts county from games I’ve watched.

[Sooks]

5 minutes ago, Agentjambo said:

I know Airdrie do it,Stockport and notts county from games I’ve watched.

Airdrie are ten points off second place in the Championship . They have lost six games in the league . They are playing against teams like Queens Park , Arbroath and Morton . We are playing against teams with international standard players most weeks . I have not seen a lot of games in the Scottish Championship this season so can you tell me what their style or identity is 

[Agentjambo]

1 minute ago, Sooks said:

Airdrie are ten points off second place in the Championship . They have lost six games in the league . They are playing against teams like Queens Park , Arbroath and Morton . We are playing against teams with international standard players most weeks . I have not seen a lot of games in the Scottish Championship this season so can you tell me what their style or identity is 

Look cut a long story short,if your saying Heart of Midlothian can’t implement a playing style because our players aren’t up to it that’s fine…you better tell Naismith!

[Sooks]

Just now, Agentjambo said:

Look cut a long story short,if your saying Heart of Midlothian can’t implement a playing style because our players aren’t up to it that’s fine…you better tell Naismith!

I am not saying that . I am saying that people take things a bit too literally and do not take any mitigating factors in to account regarding manager chat to papers 

 

It is not as simple as taking over a squad of players and then just making them play tactics and formations that you prefer 

 

If you were to take over a team with a rather slow but prolific striker , you would not suddenly tell him you want to see him chasing long balls and trying to beat defenders in a foot race 

 

The style of play or identity is dictated by the strengths of the players in your squad . Not easy to just go out and buy that fast striker either because they are desirable assets and teams will pay them a lot more money than we can afford to

 

So what happens is you find the best way of playing with what you have and that becomes your identity . If you want to tweak that later then you have to try and recruit the players that can play that way and again die to finances that takes time , but also at our level they could be a dud  

[Nookie Bear]

15 minutes ago, Agentjambo said:

I know Airdrie do it,Stockport and notts county from games I’ve watched.

 

Funny you mention Notts County. They do have a playing style that they rigidly stick to and i watched them get battered 1-4 by Mansfield a few weeks back because they just refused to let them play the way they wanted.

 

Still, they are doing ok so probably working for them overall.

 

Would love to know what Airdrie are doing right.

[Agentjambo]

8 minutes ago, Sooks said:

I am not saying that . I am saying that people take things a bit too literally and do not take any mitigating factors in to account regarding manager chat to papers 

 

It is not as simple as taking over a squad of players and then just making them play tactics and formations that you prefer 

 

If you were to take over a team with a rather slow but prolific striker , you would not suddenly tell him you want to see him chasing long balls and trying to beat defenders in a foot race 

 

The style of play or identity is dictated by the strengths of the players in your squad . Not easy to just go out and buy that fast striker either because they are desirable assets and teams will pay them a lot more money than we can afford to

 

So what happens is you find the best way of playing with what you have and that becomes your identity . If you want to tweak that later then you have to try and recruit the players that can play that way and again die to finances that takes time , but also at our level they could be a dud  

So what playing style suits us at the moment??

[Debut 4]

52 minutes ago, Sooks said:

I think it was novice naivety tbh . That is not to say he can not learn with experience . I just find this whole identity and style a bit of a red herring . A good manager will find a way of playing that gets the best out of the squad of players they have at their disposal and that then becomes the style or identity , rather than trying to impose an idealistic style of play on the squad . You can start to trade players to tweak the way you play over a few windows , but you would not just play a way that does not get the best out of your current best players because you want to be identified in a particular way 

Agree

[Dazo]

9 minutes ago, Agentjambo said:

So what playing style suits us at the moment??

Ffs Are you from Hamilton ? 
 

Maybe you’d better constructing an email and sending it off to SN. 

[Agentjambo]

6 minutes ago, Dazo said:

Ffs Are you from Hamilton ? 
 

Maybe you’d better constructing an email and sending it off to SN. 

Maybe you’d be better not getting involved.

[Dazo]

Just now, Agentjambo said:

Maybe you’d be better not getting involved.

That is not how forums work. If you want an identity give SN time to develop one, if not don’t worry about what he said. Failing that you’d probably be better posting emojis. 

[Agentjambo]

1 minute ago, Dazo said:

That is not how forums work. If you want an identity give SN time to develop one, if not don’t worry about what he said. Failing that you’d probably be better posting emojis. 

Naismith isn’t capable.

[Sooks]

13 minutes ago, Agentjambo said:

So what playing style suits us at the moment??

Depends on the opposition 

 

If we are playing against a team that sits in like Livingston then you want Boyce and Shankland chipping away at their defence trying to find a way through

 

If we are playing Rangers or Celtic then we need pace on the wings and a very organised midfield and defence 

 

If we are playing Hibs then we make sure we have pace in the fullback positions as their wingers are their main threat , and we look to get Shanks up close to their centre defenders in and around their box 

 

We have the players that are capable of doing these things so you balance out the squad to handle the oppositions threat and still have a cutting edge yourself 

 

This is what I mean by you taking things to literally . We’re you expecting me to lay out a formation and tactics that would work in every game and that we should just stick rigidly with whoever we play ? That would be crazy and absolutely trying to put style before substance 

 

Every single game our style should be whatever gives us the best chance of the points with what we have available 

 

 

[Sooks]

1 minute ago, Agentjambo said:

Naismith isn’t capable.

I did not want him as manager , but I am backing him and I have definitely seen a bit from our last six matches to suggest he is improving . We have played well for varying amounts of time in the last six matches against very different opposition . The signs are there for a bit of optimism imo

[Agentjambo]

8 minutes ago, Sooks said:

Depends on the opposition 

 

If we are playing against a team that sits in like Livingston then you want Boyce and Shankland chipping away at their defence trying to find a way through

 

If we are playing Rangers or Celtic then we need pace on the wings and a very organised midfield and defence 

 

If we are playing Hibs then we make sure we have pace in the fullback positions as their wingers are their main threat , and we look to get Shanks up close to their centre defenders in and around their box 

 

We have the players that are capable of doing these things so you balance out the squad to handle the oppositions threat and still have a cutting edge yourself 

 

This is what I mean by you taking things to literally . We’re you expecting me to lay out a formation and tactics that would work in every game and that we should just stick rigidly with whoever we play ? That would be crazy and absolutely trying to put style before substance 

 

Every single game our style should be whatever gives us the best chance of the points with what we have available 

 

 

As I say…you better tell Naismith.

 

[Sooks]

16 minutes ago, Agentjambo said:

As I say…you better tell Naismith.

 

Yes I read it , and as I have said I wish he would not say things like this in all honesty and I think it is a bit naive personally . It also contradicts the interview that he gave previously about picking different players for different games 

[Vlad Magic]

17 hours ago, Luckies1874 said:

 

 

Lies. The interview was given on Tuesday and released on Wednesday! 

 

You said......."For the record it wasn’t a recent interview. You decided to drag it back up under the pretence of being recent." 

 

Whether or not some of the comments and sound bites are repetitive or not is neither here nor there. You were wrong, as you often are 

 

 

Son you trippin.

 

There is no mention of “playing style” in the quote the OP made. He did talk about implementing a playing style when he first took over which prompted my comment about the OP dragging up past comments. You are just using the fact he has made the same comments since then as some weird vendetta revenge mission.

 

Worrying and strange in equal measures. 
 

Congratulations though you have made it to my ignore list. 👍👍
 

 

[Luckies1874]

14 minutes ago, Vlad Magic said:

Son you trippin.

 

There is no mention of “playing style” in the quote the OP made. He did talk about implementing a playing style when he first took over which prompted my comment about the OP dragging up past comments. You are just using the fact he has made the same comments since then as some weird vendetta revenge mission.

 

Worrying and strange in equal measures. 
 

Congratulations though you have made it to my ignore list. 👍👍
 

 

The only thing strange is that you hit your knickers in a twist not knowing that this subject had been revisited very recently by the head coach. You claimed, entirely wrongly, that it wasn’t a recent interview!! It was then pointed out to you it was literally from an article in the evening news from the previous 24 hrs yet you've doubled down 

 

Anyway, I’m done owning you for now. Away and try to bully another totally reasonable OP! 🤣

Edited November 17, 2023 by Luckies1874

[Gizmo]

22 hours ago, Luckies1874 said:

 

He is doing one thing and one thing only; trying to buy himself time. 

No, he is continually working with the squad and players to establish a winning team. We can see that he has developed us to be quite dominant in possession against most sides, and clearly wants us to be better at using that possession to create - and take chances. Some of that takes time - particularly as long standing complaints about us were that we had a deep seated tendency to revert into safe passing, something he abhors and is quite obviously working to improve. 

Same with our tendency to shit ourselves when our team coach exits Edinburgh. Away wins this season has seen some improvement. 

Or would we prefer a flash in the pan, quick boost from an imposter like Robson and then absolute shite once found out? I know I don't.  
 

22 hours ago, Sooks said:

Let us hope it works and his confidence in himself comes to fruition 

Indeed. 

[Unknown user]

12 minutes ago, Gizmo said:

No, he is continually working with the squad and players to establish a winning team. We can see that he has developed us to be quite dominant in possession against most sides, and clearly wants us to be better at using that possession to create - and take chances. Some of that takes time - particularly as long standing complaints about us were that we had a deep seated tendency to revert into safe passing, something he abhors and is quite obviously working to improve. 

Same with our tendency to shit ourselves when our team coach exits Edinburgh. Away wins this season has seen some improvement. 

Or would we prefer a flash in the pan, quick boost from an imposter like Robson and then absolute shite once found out? I know I don't.  
 

Indeed. 

 

We've also seen flashes of one touch football as they learn to trust their first instinct. It's funny, I think Devlin's actually the one who's developed most this way, and he's been dropped.

 

We've won 3 away league games in 2023, all this season.

[Luckies1874]

20 minutes ago, Gizmo said:

No, he is continually working with the squad and players to establish a winning team. We can see that he has developed us to be quite dominant in possession against most sides, and clearly wants us to be better at using that possession to create - and take chances. Some of that takes time - particularly as long standing complaints about us were that we had a deep seated tendency to revert into safe passing, something he abhors and is quite obviously working to improve. 

Same with our tendency to shit ourselves when our team coach exits Edinburgh. Away wins this season has seen some improvement. 

Or would we prefer a flash in the pan, quick boost from an imposter like Robson and then absolute shite once found out? I know I don't.  
 

Indeed. 

Some reasonable points. 
 

I look forward to us getting a result at Pittodrie next month! 👍

[Bazzas right boot]

4 hours ago, Hearts1975 said:

It's absolutely down to footballing ability. 

Player intelligence is just one trait, along with many other traits, that goes toward the overall quality of a football player 

 

Imagine having to explain that.....on a football forum.

 

[Bazzas right boot]

12 minutes ago, Luckies1874 said:

Some reasonable points. 
 

I look forward to us getting a result at Pittodrie next month! 👍

 

"Cannae wait until we get beat so I can come on here and say I was right" type post.

 

 

[Luckies1874]

Just now, Bazzas right boot said:

 

"Cannae wait until we get beat so I can come on here and say I was right" type post.

 

 

What are you wittering about now?
 

You really are a funny wee guy! You surely can’t be like this in real life 
 

 

[Pete Elliott]

3 hours ago, Dazo said:

Ffs Are you from Hamilton ? 
 

Maybe you’d better constructing an email and sending it off to SN. 

[HopeDiouf]

1 hour ago, Gizmo said:

No, he is continually working with the squad and players to establish a winning team. We can see that he has developed us to be quite dominant in possession against most sides, and clearly wants us to be better at using that possession to create - and take chances. Some of that takes time - particularly as long standing complaints about us were that we had a deep seated tendency to revert into safe passing, something he abhors and is quite obviously working to improve. 

Same with our tendency to shit ourselves when our team coach exits Edinburgh. Away wins this season has seen some improvement. 

Or would we prefer a flash in the pan, quick boost from an imposter like Robson and then absolute shite once found out? I know I don't.  
 

Indeed. 

I'd take in Europe and in the cup final, over out of Europe and not in the cup final tbf.

[Jim Panzee]

3 hours ago, Agentjambo said:

Naismith isn’t capable.

Jings! you could've perhaps written this alongside your OP.....saved 3 pages of posts

[Gizmo]

1 minute ago, Luckies1874 said:

Some reasonable points. 
 

I look forward to us getting a result at Pittodrie next month! 👍

Using a venue we never win at as a barometer of our progress is fine and I really hope this is the time we do win there, but it's the overall trajectory and momentum that matters most.

 

[Luckies1874]

49 minutes ago, Gizmo said:

Using a venue we never win at as a barometer of our progress is fine and I really hope this is the time we do win there, but it's the overall trajectory and momentum that matters most.

 

That’s all well and good but we face a run of fixtures in December where we play Rangers (H), Aberdeen (A), Celtic (A), St Mirren (H) and Hibs (A). Last season we faced those fixtures on 10 occasions and do you know how many points we took? 4 points out of a possible 30! So perceived upward trajectory and momentum is fine to talk about but its results that matter and that will be how progress is measured! 

[Vlad Magic]

We could do with learning to win games by any means necessary before attempting any sense of “identity”.

 

I appreciate why Naismith said what he did at the start of the season. Who can blame him. All about making the right noises to the fans. 
 

In the big scheme of things having an “identity” as such should be down the pecking order.

[Bazzas right boot]

1 hour ago, Luckies1874 said:

That’s all well and good but we face a run of fixtures in December where we play Rangers (H), Aberdeen (A), Celtic (A), St Mirren (H) and Hibs (A). Last season we faced those fixtures on 10 occasions and do you know how many points we took? 4 points out of a possible 30! So perceived upward trajectory and momentum is fine to talk about but its results that matter and that will be how progress is measured! 

 

Pretty sure you were one that was banging on about style at some point rather than results.

 

4 points out of 30 with the OF in there 8 times.....

 

 

Edited November 17, 2023 by Bazzas right boot

[Sooks]

1 hour ago, Vlad Magic said:

We could do with learning to win games by any means necessary before attempting any sense of “identity”.

 

I appreciate why Naismith said what he did at the start of the season. Who can blame him. All about making the right noises to the fans. 
 

In the big scheme of things having an “identity” as such should be down the pecking order.

Agree . It should be an outcome rather than an aim 

[Luckies1874]

2 hours ago, Bazzas right boot said:

 

Pretty sure you were one that was banging on about style at some point rather than results.

 

4 points out of 30 with the OF in there 8 times.....

 

 

 

 

Keep chirping utter nonsense  

 

(admin delete)

 

Even an idiot would recognise that the 5 upcoming fixtures I listed could only be played 2 times each so that only 4 of these matches were games against the Old Firm! For the record we got exactly zero points from those 4 games.

 

Our record against the top 6 last season for all 4 matches against each team (20 total) was:

 

Celtic 0 points

Rangers 1 point

Aberdeen 6 points

Hibs 5 points

St Mirren 5 points

 

17 points form 60. 

 

[Lone Striker]

On 16/11/2023 at 08:59, Sooks said:

 

Whenever I read stuff like this I just roll my eyes tbh . Read it so many times over the decades and it never really comes to fruition . You can only piss with the cock you have 

Yep, agreed.  Leave the philosophy & identity b0ll0cks to wee Lee and his wonder app.  Iit served him well at Hibs. 😄