Our playing identity

[Agentjambo]

Naismith stating in a recent interview about implementing our “playing style”…

 

As an example De Zerbi,Enzo Maresca,Big Ange and Daniel Farley have gone into their new clubs and implemented a new playing style almost instantly….

Why can’t Naismith do likewise??

 

[db211833]

You are comparing him to considerably more experienced managers with much better squads.Seems a tad unfair. He has managed a first team squad for about 20 games.

[Agentjambo]

Just now, db211833 said:

You are comparing him to considerably more experienced managers with much better squads.Seems a tad unfair. He has managed a first team squad for about 20 games.

So he’s not up to the job?

Isn’t understanding instructions re new playing styles not down to player intelligence more than ability?

[Vlad Magic]

4 minutes ago, Agentjambo said:

So he’s not up to the job?

Isn’t understanding instructions re new playing styles not down to player intelligence more than ability?

Maybe he is but it’s the players fault for not implementing the style he requests?

 

For the record it wasn’t a recent interview. You decided to drag it back up under the pretence of being recent.

 

This OP can be filed under “mischief making”.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bazzas right boot]

16 minutes ago, Vlad Magic said:

Maybe he is but it’s the players fault for not implementing the style he requests?

 

For the record it wasn’t a recent interview. You decided to drag it back up under the pretence of being recent.

 

This OP can be filed under “mischief making”.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yip, Or maybe it's difficult and a slow process tha takes patience.

 

We really do have some daft fans.

[Luckies1874]

27 minutes ago, Vlad Magic said:

 

For the record it wasn’t a recent interview. You decided to drag it back up under the pretence of being recent.

 

 

For the record it was a very recent interview and was literally published in today's Edinburgh Evening News!!!

 

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/football/hearts/hearts-plot-a-route-to-long-term-success-needing-patience-from-clubs-fans-players-staff-and-board-4408712

[Elmo]

You use 4 or 5 success stories 

you could have listed just as many failures or just as many who are still in a bit limbo like us. All with good managers.

who are at clubs 

significantly bigger than us  and are paid significantly more than SN 

 

[Gorgie_Rules]

Anyone that buys into the idea of a Scottish club outside the Old Firm having some sort of identity in the way they play over a consistent period of time is in fantasy land.

 

A team can be tactically drilled to repeat the same patterns of play but that more often than not goes out the window on the way games pan out. The standard both in terms of ability and variance between teams is such that any sort of identifiable style is non-existent.

 

Nobody could clearly tell you the defined style of say a Callum Davidson, Robbie Neilson or Derek McIness team but what I can tell you is they delivered on their remit at some point in time. It’s basically win by any means necessary with the standard involved.

[Byyy The Light]

9 minutes ago, Gorgie_Rules said:

Anyone that buys into the idea of a Scottish club outside the Old Firm having some sort of identity in the way they play over a consistent period of time is in fantasy land.

 

A team can be tactically drilled to repeat the same patterns of play but that more often than not goes out the window on the way games pan out. The standard both in terms of ability and variance between teams is such that any sort of identifiable style is non-existent.

 

Nobody could clearly tell you the defined style of say a Callum Davidson, Robbie Neilson or Derek McIness team but what I can tell you is they delivered on their remit at some point in time. It’s basically win by any means necessary with the standard involved.

Spot on. 
 

 

[Carter]

16 minutes ago, Gorgie_Rules said:

Anyone that buys into the idea of a Scottish club outside the Old Firm having some sort of identity in the way they play over a consistent period of time is in fantasy land.

 

A team can be tactically drilled to repeat the same patterns of play but that more often than not goes out the window on the way games pan out. The standard both in terms of ability and variance between teams is such that any sort of identifiable style is non-existent.

 

Nobody could clearly tell you the defined style of say a Callum Davidson, Robbie Neilson or Derek McIness team but what I can tell you is they delivered on their remit at some point in time. It’s basically win by any means necessary with the standard involved.

👍

[Star Lizard]

5 hours ago, Gorgie_Rules said:

Anyone that buys into the idea of a Scottish club outside the Old Firm having some sort of identity in the way they play over a consistent period of time is in fantasy land.

 

A team can be tactically drilled to repeat the same patterns of play but that more often than not goes out the window on the way games pan out. The standard both in terms of ability and variance between teams is such that any sort of identifiable style is non-existent.

 

Nobody could clearly tell you the defined style of say a Callum Davidson, Robbie Neilson or Derek McIness team but what I can tell you is they delivered on their remit at some point in time. It’s basically win by any means necessary with the standard involved.

Bingo ! Hear hear 

[Pete Elliott]

[Jim Panzee]

three words...

 

Chelsea

 

Pochettino

 

£1b

 

 

[Dazo]

Apart from the OP Who is actually sitting about waiting for this identity to appear ? ****ing no one. 😂

 

Win some football matches and most of us will be happy. 😊 

[Star Lizard]

4 minutes ago, Dazo said:

Apart from the OP Who is actually sitting about waiting for this identity to appear ? ****ing no one. 😂

 

Win some football matches and most of us will be happy. 😊 

Ah but what about style and bottle ? I think our style should be late 90 s Newcastle mixed with early 2000 s Corinthians when attacking , but when not on the ball I would like to see us play like 97 Inter 

[Dazo]

1 minute ago, Sooks said:

Ah but what about style and bottle ? I think our style should be late 90 s Newcastle mixed with early 2000 s Corinthians when attacking , but when not on the ball I would like to see us play like 97 Inter 

Could work, hibs went with Brazil and that seems to have worked wonders for them over the years. Maybe that’s what the op is after. 

Edited November 16, 2023 by Dazo

[Star Lizard]

30 minutes ago, Dazo said:

Could work, hibs went with Brazil and that seems to have worked wonders for them over the years. Maybe that’s what the op is after. 

All we need now is Carlos Tevez , Les Ferdinand , Ginola , Pirlo and Baggio and we are good to go . We shall call this identity Gorgie Gangnam Style

[Agentjambo]

If certain people took time to read the full article by the EEN news recently they would find out that it was our manager that was talking about finding our playing identity and not ME!

[Bull's-eye]

Epic fail by the OP.

 

Sure he wont give up though.

[Agentjambo]

6 minutes ago, Bull's-eye said:

Epic fail by the OP.

 

Sure he wont give up though.

Why an epic fail??

[Star Lizard]

16 minutes ago, Agentjambo said:

If certain people took time to read the full article by the EEN news recently they would find out that it was our manager that was talking about finding our playing identity and not ME!

I read it . I think it is naive to believe we can implement a style or identity at a club with our level of financial clout 

 

In order to achieve a player goes out and is replaced by someone who can just slot in and not change the style is extremely fanciful . That should be obvious from when we lose one of our top players like Gino . Who has slotted in to allow us to still play that way successfully ? If Beni or Kent get injured ? We would need about 24 players of the same quality as Gordon , Beni and Shankland and we just do not have that . We have players who have different attributes to the first eleven but they are rarely like for like . If Shanks gets injured we would have Boyce in his role , but the dynamic changes immediately . Same with Beni because Boyce and Devlin simply do not have the same qualities and weaknesses .
 

Whenever I read stuff like this I just roll my eyes tbh . Read it so many times over the decades and it never really comes to fruition . You can only piss with the cock you have 

[pettigrewsstylist]

Buy better players than out rivals, train them properly and ensure we have leaders to motivate them when things get tough. Job done. We are in a league of 10.

[4marsbars]

As we've often noted, our results against non-OF teams, in the short period that Naismith has officially been in charge, are pretty good, especially away from home.

 

But let's have another 'moaning about the manager' thread.

 

 

 

[alicante jambo]

53 minutes ago, Sooks said:

All we need now is Carlos Tevez , Les Ferdinand , Ginola , Pirlo and Baggio and we are good to go . We shall call this identity Gorgie Gangnam Style

Well we have had zico and baggio play for us.

[Star Lizard]

Just now, alicante jambo said:

Well we have had zico and baggio play for us.

Fair

[Agentjambo]

Our manager said it guys….not me.

[Star Lizard]

1 hour ago, Agentjambo said:

Our manager said it guys….not me.

Tell me what you thought of Naismiths words

[Agentjambo]

7 minutes ago, Sooks said:

Tell me what you thought of Naismiths words

I don’t think there is anything wrong with him wanting to find a playing style for us….other clubs have done the same.

Just unsure of why it’s taking so long to see any signs of a style on-field after nearly 4 months.

 

[Rudy T]

Personally get hacked off with most of this modern day chat about styles, blocks high and low, rotations of play, high press etc none of it is new it’s just been given a fancy terminology now so those who talk about the game for a living and shite managers can sound like they know more than the fan in the stand. 
 

We can all see what’s happening on the pitch and more often than not you can see by formations exactly how each team is going to play and the likey outcome if one team doesn’t change.

 

What makes a good manager is one who can manage within a game. With Naismith we need to be patient (or sack him now) as he’s going to get that right and wrong in equal measure. More experienced managers have more reference points to pull from when changing games.

 

My problem with our style is the midfield, we still don’t have a fluid midfield all very static. And we lack a decent right back.

[Bad Religion]

We 100% need to move away from the shite passing the ball around at back type which appears to be ingrained into us from the previous incumbent. 
 

It is torture, amateurish at best. 

[damo]

18 minutes ago, Agentjambo said:

I don’t think there is anything wrong with him wanting to find a playing style for us….other clubs have done the same.

Just unsure of why it’s taking so long to see any signs of a style on-field after nearly 4 months.

 

I think we all saw the style in our final game against Aberdeen last season. Naismith even said as much. 

5 of the top 6 performers in that game have largely not been playing this season

 

Gino - away

McKay -injuries

Oda - injuries

Cochrane - injuries

Atkinson - injuries

 

It's pretty obvious to me why its "taking so long". 

Edited November 16, 2023 by damo

[TheBigO]

2 hours ago, Sooks said:

I read it . I think it is naive to believe we can implement a style or identity at a club with our level of financial clout 

 

In order to achieve a player goes out and is replaced by someone who can just slot in and not change the style is extremely fanciful . That should be obvious from when we lose one of our top players like Gino . Who has slotted in to allow us to still play that way successfully ? If Beni or Kent get injured ? We would need about 24 players of the same quality as Gordon , Beni and Shankland and we just do not have that . We have players who have different attributes to the first eleven but they are rarely like for like . If Shanks gets injured we would have Boyce in his role , but the dynamic changes immediately . Same with Beni because Boyce and Devlin simply do not have the same qualities and weaknesses .
 

Whenever I read stuff like this I just roll my eyes tbh . Read it so many times over the decades and it never really comes to fruition . You can only piss with the cock you have 

I'm not actually sure I agree with this or the general feel of this thread.  I think we SHOULD have a football identity.  God, I hate it's called things like that these days, but its what I want, whatever it's called.

 

It doesn't mean a formation as such.

 

It means we expect our players to do certain things.  It may the intensity we play with, it may mean we generally play a certain way be it technical, or direct, whatever.  But it DOES help us integrate players and helps us recruit because there is a profile.  You mention Gino.  We brought in Tagawa - so we did try like for like.  Hasn't worked yet, but it was the profile.  Halkett out - Kent.

 

Every manager will have their own take, but having something of an identity, you are trying to create continuity.  If it works, and it's an if, you lose a manager when he does well, the next guy doesn't need to rip it up.  We were doing well under Robbie first time round, brought in a new man who ripped it up and it cost us years, literally years to repare.  Extreme example but it happened.

 

For me, Hearts should always have fast direct wingers (these days they may not hug touchlines), we should always have a focal CF.  We should have at least one tackler in the middle.  We should have attacking fullbacks.  We should try, especially at home, to pin teams back and hit them over and over.  Keep them in their half.  We should have an ethos that we'll run harder and further than the opposition.  Not saying we have this, but we should.

 

I think people overthink it in a way when they see things like identity.  It's not binding.  It's not actually overly complicated either.  If you want to manage Hearts, you need to demand certain things, you want to play for Hearts, you need to deliver these certain things.

 

What's hard is the teams who famously have an identity at present have done it under one manager, perhaps with the exeption of Brighton.  But Brentford spring to mind, Atletico do too actually.  God, Livvy!  I don't love it, but it's had them punch above their weight for quite a while

[Bull's-eye]

Basics 1st. Settled team & fitness.

 

Aint happening.

 

Close thread.

[Agentjambo]

1 minute ago, Bull's-eye said:

Basics 1st. Settled team & fitness.

 

Aint happening.

 

Close thread.

😂

[Star Lizard]

2 minutes ago, Agentjambo said:

I don’t think there is anything wrong with him wanting to find a playing style for us….other clubs have done the same.

Just unsure of why it’s taking so long to see any signs of a style on-field after nearly 4 months.

 

Okay , so take the last few games from Celtic onwards 

 

Celtic at home

Rangers away

Livingston at home

Rangers at Hampden

Motherwell away

 

Do you think that with our squad as it was from the start of that run of games up to last weekend is capable of playing in a set way in terms of personnel , formation and tactics ? I do not . You can not say right we are a fast passing team and we are sticking to that no matter what . If you do not have the ball how can you pass it at any speed ? It is impossible , so you need to win the ball back first , and this requires pressing and tackling ………. Which people write off as negative and defensive . They are two sides to the same coin though , you need to be able to do both 

 

Celtic battered us and we were overrun by their better players . We were chasing the ball and them all game . When we did get it we tried to do what we are good at but the chances were few and far between and their defenders good enough to stop us 

 

Rangers we played attacking in the first half got a goal and then the second half they were camped in our half playing passy shooty . When we did get the ball we tried to attack them using the attributes that we know our players have but once again their better players stopped us 

 

Livingston camped in with two banks of five defending for their lives . You do not hit on the break against teams like that because all the pace in world is no good if the other team are sitting in . We peppered their goal and eventually the number of chances we created led to a goal 

 

Rangers at Hampden we did well in the first half but we were swamped and eventually they made a couple of changes and we were overrun . How are we supposed to impose an identity on a team if we do not have the ball

 

Motherwell away we played good attacking football and our better players ensured that even with dodgy officiating we took three points 

 

I just can not see how we could have played the same way against those teams . The challenge is totally different in each game and things like style or identity are heavily dependent on the strength of the opposition and whether or not you see a lot of the ball

 

I would say that we do have an identity in attack , and we do have an identity in defence . I think that people just completely fail to take the other team in to consideration . We do not get as much of the ball against better teams and weaker teams give us the ball . We do not attack or defend any differently against different opposition , we just have varying lengths of time where we are able to attack or have to defend . Much of what people call style is no more than the ability of an individual player .
 

Cochrane gets forward and tries to put in diagonal balls in to the box from a wide left position 

 

Shankland receives a pass holds on to the ball and tries to release a runner

 

Vargas picks up the ball out wide and attempts to carry it forward at his feet

 

Rowles tracks runners and tries to make interceptions and tries to get forward when he has the ball 

 

Kent intercepts and heads clear and makes strong tackles 

 

I could go on but you get the idea . This is our style , it is what the players are good at but they get more or less opportunities to do these things depending on the opposition 

 

I think you are taking what he says far too literally tbh . He also said that he picks the players depending on the opposition so that suggests that we are not seeking a rigid way of playing where one player can come in and replace another and we stay the same in terms of what they do . Otherwise why would we bother picking certain players for certain games . I think people think that we can just do what Brazil or Germany or Peps Barcelona do and play one way and live or die by that . When we are able to bring in the quality of players these teams have then yes , fair enough , but until then it is simply about hard work and the players knowing each others game and how to work as a team 

 

IMO

[BigAlim]

I just want 3 points most weeks

[Star Lizard]

4 minutes ago, BigAlim said:

I just want 3 points most weeks

Me too , it is all that matters 

[Ricardo Quaresma]

32 minutes ago, TheBigO said:

I'm not actually sure I agree with this or the general feel of this thread.  I think we SHOULD have a football identity.  God, I hate it's called things like that these days, but its what I want, whatever it's called.

 

It doesn't mean a formation as such.

 

It means we expect our players to do certain things.  It may the intensity we play with, it may mean we generally play a certain way be it technical, or direct, whatever.  But it DOES help us integrate players and helps us recruit because there is a profile.  You mention Gino.  We brought in Tagawa - so we did try like for like.  Hasn't worked yet, but it was the profile.  Halkett out - Kent.

 

Every manager will have their own take, but having something of an identity, you are trying to create continuity.  If it works, and it's an if, you lose a manager when he does well, the next guy doesn't need to rip it up.  We were doing well under Robbie first time round, brought in a new man who ripped it up and it cost us years, literally years to repare.  Extreme example but it happened.

 

For me, Hearts should always have fast direct wingers (these days they may not hug touchlines), we should always have a focal CF.  We should have at least one tackler in the middle.  We should have attacking fullbacks.  We should try, especially at home, to pin teams back and hit them over and over.  Keep them in their half.  We should have an ethos that we'll run harder and further than the opposition.  Not saying we have this, but we should.

 

I think people overthink it in a way when they see things like identity.  It's not binding.  It's not actually overly complicated either.  If you want to manage Hearts, you need to demand certain things, you want to play for Hearts, you need to deliver these certain things.

 

What's hard is the teams who famously have an identity at present have done it under one manager, perhaps with the exeption of Brighton.  But Brentford spring to mind, Atletico do too actually.  God, Livvy!  I don't love it, but it's had them punch above their weight for quite a while

 

Kudos for stating what you think, bud 👍

 

If I had to sum up what our playing style or identity should be in one word, that word would be Swagger

[EH11 2NL]

Ange never, Celtic weren't that great when he first took over. We even managed to beat them 

[Agentjambo]

27 minutes ago, EH11 2NL said:

Ange never, Celtic weren't that great when he first took over. We even managed to beat them 

He did,he brought the same playing style he implemented at Yokohama.High pressing,attacking football.Now implemented at Spurs.

[Star Lizard]

14 minutes ago, Agentjambo said:

He did,he brought the same playing style he implemented at Yokohama.High pressing,attacking football.Now implemented at Spurs.

That works well when you have better players than the opposition but how do you attack if you do not have the ball ? You dont, the closest thing to that is pressing

 

It is the same with this obsession with pace being the answer to all our woes . Pace is great to have and against teams that play an open game or a high line you can murder them with it , if you get the ball enough to use it . How do you use pace to unlock two banks of five defenders holding a deep line though ? How do you go about doing that 

[TheBigO]

45 minutes ago, Ricardo Quaresma said:

 

Kudos for stating what you think, bud 👍

 

If I had to sum up what our playing style or identity should be in one word, that word would be Swagger

Haha! yeah, I'd like that.  I think if you asked other supporters about hearts they'd say it's in your face.  Got a Celtic mate (I know but outwith his genetic sojourns into delusion, he knows his football!), and this is his take.  Hearts play in your face - you don't get a second on the ball, and when we have it we're direct (not meaning long ball, but we "go").  You get a game against Hearts.

 

I think that's it.

 

Seems simple and you'd think every team or manager would want it, but truth is many don't instill it as their minimum.

 

What happens, of course, is the club state an identity - say it's forward attacking football with wingers, I duno.  Then every time we don't do it, the numbskulls all jump on it!  Aaaagh but they said we'd only pass the ball forward!!! Aaaaghhh!

 

It's a bit like the recruitment strategy of signing guys under 26 or whatever it was, then everyone's collective colon's collapse when we sign someone above that age, no matter who it is.

 

Sometimes better the club just get on with shit rather than say it is my take!

[Bad Religion]

6 minutes ago, Sooks said:

That works well when you have better players than the opposition but how do you attack if you do not have the ball ? You dont, the closest thing to that is pressing

 

It is the same with this obsession with pace being the answer to all our woes . Pace is great to have and against teams that play an open game or a high line you can murder them with it , if you get the ball enough to use it . How do you use pace to unlock two banks of five defenders holding a deep line though ? How do you go about doing that 

 

The old firm do it to us every time. 

[Agentjambo]

4 minutes ago, Sooks said:

That works well when you have better players than the opposition but how do you attack if you do not have the ball ? You dont, the closest thing to that is pressing

 

It is the same with this obsession with pace being the answer to all our woes . Pace is great to have and against teams that play an open game or a high line you can murder them with it , if you get the ball enough to use it . How do you use pace to unlock two banks of five defenders holding a deep line though ? How do you go about doing that 

Of course you can’t attack when without the ball but as you say you can high press using our front players and midfield  pressuring them into loosing the ball.

 

You have to do as Brighton and others do and tempt them into coming and wining the ball from our back line then once they have moved out of position move the ball quickly and directly through the thirds.

[Star Lizard]

1 minute ago, Bad Religion said:

 

The old firm do it to us every time. 

Do what ? Swamp is and dont let us have the ball ? I know and it is frustrating because we can only stand up that for so long before we concede , and it limits the number of our own attacks we can muster . When we do get a chance to attack we need to score but they also generally have very good defenders 

[Star Lizard]

2 minutes ago, Agentjambo said:

Of course you can’t attack when without the ball but as you say you can high press using our front players and midfield  pressuring them into loosing the ball.

 

You have to do as Brighton and others do and tempt them into coming and wining the ball from our back line then once they have moved out of position move the ball quickly and directly through the thirds.

We do do the press when playing them though , it is just that they tend to have players who can pass round it in wee triangles , and then we have supporters claiming we are hiding or not getting involved ect, like people were laughably claiming about Beni vs Rangers in the semi 

[Ricardo Quaresma]

1 minute ago, TheBigO said:

Haha! yeah, I'd like that.  I think if you asked other supporters about hearts they'd say it's in your face.  Got a Celtic mate (I know but outwith his genetic sojourns into delusion, he knows his football!), and this is his take.  Hearts play in your face - you don't get a second on the ball, and when we have it we're direct (not meaning long ball, but we "go").  You get a game against Hearts.

 

I think that's it.

 

Seems simple and you'd think every team or manager would want it, but truth is many don't instill it as their minimum.

 

What happens, of course, is the club state an identity - say it's forward attacking football with wingers, I duno.  Then every time we don't do it, the numbskulls all jump on it!  Aaaagh but they said we'd only pass the ball forward!!! Aaaaghhh!

 

It's a bit like the recruitment strategy of signing guys under 26 or whatever it was, then everyone's collective colon's collapse when we sign someone above that age, no matter who it is.

 

Sometimes better the club just get on with shit rather than say it is my take!

 

Well, like people say, direct Football within a game is the exception rather than the rule; the odd long ball can catch a team out if they think you'll never use it

 

But it should only be an option in a game like paok at home when we were getting little opportunity and they, being greeks, were running down the clock; our only chance of a goal was to chuck it in the box from throw-ins or whatever, get it in their penalty area or we were getting nothing

 

Generally though, yes, pull teams around and get into space to carve an opportunity is the way

[Star Lizard]

It really is all about players and manager really . You need both to be good . The old firm at this moment both have both , and unfortunately both are better than us . Hopefully the way we have played against Livingston and Motherwell suggests we are going to start being more consistent against the rest though 

[TheBigO]

13 minutes ago, Sooks said:

That works well when you have better players than the opposition but how do you attack if you do not have the ball ? You dont, the closest thing to that is pressing

 

It is the same with this obsession with pace being the answer to all our woes . Pace is great to have and against teams that play an open game or a high line you can murder them with it , if you get the ball enough to use it . How do you use pace to unlock two banks of five defenders holding a deep line though ? How do you go about doing that 

Yep.  After they were gifted the league against us at Tynie by the ref last season, McGregor had some mark journo interview him and was giving it "aw what about Big Ange though Callum eh, what a guy, you must love Big Ange though, Callum..."

 

McGregor said it was so amazing that Ange had managed to totally transform and implement a new playing style in only about 6 weeks.  A wee shaky start but in truth it ONLY took 6 weeks which is just unbelievable when you look at other teams trying it.  Erm, OK lets take Everton.  Who they playing each week, Callum??

 

Fact is most games for Celtic, and I include against us, are like us playing lower league sides in a pre-season, so it's a bit different implementing a new system isn't it!  Christ he could probably have tried a few weeks instructing the players only to use their left feet to see what happened and won the league

 

For Hearts and almost every other team in the universe, you are implementing a style in a highly competitive game week in week out.  Not so easy and takes time.  And that's why most managers don't do it.

[Rampant]

42 minutes ago, Agentjambo said:

He did,he brought the same playing style he implemented at Yokohama.High pressing,attacking football.Now implemented at Spurs.

 

You've cracked it. We should have hired Postecoglou instead of Naismith.

 

Can't believe we let Tottenham snap him up when it was clear Celtic were willing to let him leave.

Edited November 16, 2023 by Rampant