***Heart Of Midlothian Football Club Vs St Johnstone*** Official Match Thread

[Taffin]

We need a right back, a brave central midfielder and a replacement for Gino.

 

Same as at the start of the season. Would make the world of difference 

[TexasAndy]

I agree that right back is a problem just now.  Kingsley is solid but he can't get forward with all his play on the left foot.  Forrest had a poor game.   We only really improved on that side when Oda came on.   Overall though it was a good win in the end.  These games are not easy with teams camped in their own half.  The Sportscene editor must be from Perth as he managed to capture every foray forward they had on the highlights.   

Edited November 27, 2023 by TexasAndy

[Watt-Zeefuik]

21 hours ago, Bull's-eye said:

 

 

Not having the bit in bold. I want to see Shankland playing on the shoulder of the defender, stay there and cause problems, make runs, why has he started dropping so deep, its become ridiculous and very easy to deal with. He's always recieving the ball facing the wrong way. Its madness, get him off if he's not playing to instruction or get him told to use his brain and experience and play as a number 9.  Plenty balls into the box yesterday with nobody in there to convert.

 

Shankland isnt slow either.

 

Shankland almost never scores goals like that. The vast majority of his goals come from him finding space in front of defenders and shooting it past them. He has the odd goal where he's broken out and gotten one-on-one with the keeper but they're very much the exception.

 

Last season it worked so well to have Ginnelly push the back line back with his runs and have Shanks pop up in front of the goal.

 

He has nearly half of all our goals this season, getting him to score is very much not the problem. FFS our second leading goal scorers are CAMMY DEVLIN and ALAN FORREST, on two each. We need to figure out how to get other players to score, not mess with what Shanks is doing.

[Bull's-eye]

15 minutes ago, Led Tasso said:

 

Shankland almost never scores goals like that. The vast majority of his goals come from him finding space in front of defenders and shooting it past them. He has the odd goal where he's broken out and gotten one-on-one with the keeper but they're very much the exception.

 

Last season it worked so well to have Ginnelly push the back line back with his runs and have Shanks pop up in front of the goal.

 

He has nearly half of all our goals this season, getting him to score is very much not the problem. FFS our second leading goal scorers are CAMMY DEVLIN and ALAN FORREST, on two each. We need to figure out how to get other players to score, not mess with what Shanks is doing.

 

Shankland not being in a position to score goals is a massive problem. I didn't suggest he scores from anywhere so I'm not getting what you're waffling about tbh.

 

But, I'll re-iterate, coming deep into midfield with his back to goal trying to lay-off fancy flicks really doesn't do his game or the team any justice at all.

 

He's quick enough to hold his forward position and get himself into the box. Would be nice to see him facing the goal occasionally as well. He's not up against Van Dyke ffs.

He doesn't even need to fight and scrap with centre halfs if he doesn't want to, its not like we lump it up to him.

 

He's a goalscorer imo and he's not getting himself into good enough positions to give himself a chance. Is he being asked to play this way, it looks like he is as he never gets the hook.

 

Its going to be a long, hard frustrating season holding onto slim 1 nils waiting for the inevitable unless we start putting teams away, that wont happen with our number 9 in midfield with his back to goal imo.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

4 hours ago, Bull's-eye said:

 

Shankland not being in a position to score goals is a massive problem. I didn't suggest he scores from anywhere so I'm not getting what you're waffling about tbh.

 

But, I'll re-iterate, coming deep into midfield with his back to goal trying to lay-off fancy flicks really doesn't do his game or the team any justice at all.

 

He's quick enough to hold his forward position and get himself into the box. Would be nice to see him facing the goal occasionally as well. He's not up against Van Dyke ffs.

He doesn't even need to fight and scrap with centre halfs if he doesn't want to, its not like we lump it up to him.

 

He's a goalscorer imo and he's not getting himself into good enough positions to give himself a chance. Is he being asked to play this way, it looks like he is as he never gets the hook.

 

Its going to be a long, hard frustrating season holding onto slim 1 nils waiting for the inevitable unless we start putting teams away, that wont happen with our number 9 in midfield with his back to goal imo.

I am still boggled by the notion that the problem with what we're doing now has anything to do with Shankland, who is on a pace to score 20+ league goals and possibly top 30 overall, while our overall current goals/game is at the second lowest it's ever been in 30 years.

 

Yes, on current form, we have the most prolific striker since Robbo and the worst team goal scoring since Robbo. We're literally scoring at a lower rate than we did in the relegation season AND the demotion season.

 

There are terrible problems with our attack but it has absolutely nothing to do with Shankland not getting goals. That's literally the opposite of the problem we have.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

Not to beat a dead horse, but look at these current stats and say out loud, "the problem is Shanks isn't scoring and Boycie doesn't do anything" and see if it makes any sense.

 

 

Now try asking, "where TF is the rest of the team on this goal sheet?" We usually have 5-6 players committed forward on attack, why are they hardly ever scoring goals? How are they behind Cammy "great midfielder but turns into a drunk punter when he steps into the opponent's box" Devlin on the goal tally?

[Hearts1975]

The most important thing, going into what can only be described as a hard run of games, is that we have built up a bit of form with winning the last 3.

 

Do we need to play better ? We do, but there are signs .... It's just not consistent enough at the moment, and that's what Naismith needs to work on. 

 

I hate the word project. Overused imo, but look, Naismith isn't Pep. The whole success and performance thing isn't going to manifest itself overnight. Mistakes will be made, but like I said, consistency is key. 

 

Major plus point for me is with Kent and Rowles. We have really tightened up the backline and that is in no small part down to signing Kent. It gives us a solid base to build from. 

 

2 points behind 3rd. We could argue whether it should have been more points by this stage, but the facts are, we have improved our points total in recent times. The points that we should have won happened way before the improvement. 

[Hearts1975]

2 hours ago, Led Tasso said:

Not to beat a dead horse, but look at these current stats and say out loud, "the problem is Shanks isn't scoring and Boycie doesn't do anything" and see if it makes any sense.

 

 

Now try asking, "where TF is the rest of the team on this goal sheet?" We usually have 5-6 players committed forward on attack, why are they hardly ever scoring goals? How are they behind Cammy "great midfielder but turns into a drunk punter when he steps into the opponent's box" Devlin on the goal tally?

It's a completely valid point but it ain't rocket science if u step back from it. 

We haven't replaced ginnellys and mckay's goals and have seriously missed McKay's creativity 

 

Coupled with direct replacements such as Tagawa, Lowrie and Vargas. Hardly any goals collectively. 

 

Last season we pretty much won a lot of games on the back of individual performances. Pre Naismith and when RN was in charge, then yes, there were a few games where the whole team chipped in. 

 

I would say however that was more to do with the former manager working with a more settled side, than the current manager, and less to do with the tactical side. 

 

Just my opinion though.

[jamboinglasgow]

1 hour ago, TheBigO said:

Not sure the right thread for this but can everyone just stop their whinging!??!?  Is that maybe an idea!?
 

Oh Hearts please stop winning!  Stop it stop it stop it.  Waaaa waaaa waaaa.

 

3 in a row, unbeaten in 5 outwith the OF, with one of those OFs being a bawhair away from an away victory at Ibrox.  But for a couple of individual brainfarts, we're 6 wins out of 7.

 

First 20 mins on Saturday, we played at tempo and blew them away.  We didn't put the ball in the net.  Niasy can't get his boots on, freeze time, run on on, start time, knock it in.  I don't think anyway.

 

St Johnstone then managed to get a couple of moments and solified their shape.  You see it all the time.  You know when you play the OF if you get throught the initial 20 mins, you can grind.  St J did it to us.  There were literally no spaces to play in - they left Kent on the ball, which was just clever of them.  Despite that, we managed to isolate them plenty and the final ball was shite.  That means the tactics are working.  If Forrest gets by his guy, 1-on-1 one of the 5 times he had the chance, then we're saying it's great attacking play.  We get that penalty - ANOTHER *&*&ing STONEWALLER - then we've scored relatively early and we probably trot to victory.

 

How often do you see the OF (even against us I promise you) pretty unimpressive until they score.  It's not cos they're the worse team, it's because the opposition are stopping them.  But they get a break, a penalty or that touch of individual excellence and the game totally turns, they often then cruise.  We need a game where we get that, that's all.

 

The moaning on here and at the game is just imbecilic.  It really is juvenile nonsense.

 

I'd have liked a different starting line up.  But does everyone appreciate Vargas, Oda and Newy were all halfway around the world during the international break?  Only Rowles of the guys who traveled distance played (as I suggested would be the case last week).

 

Add Barrie McKay and Nat Atkinson into that game, never mind the three above (and obv Halks and Craigy but they weren't needed frankly) and we're a totally different team.

 

We won.  We move on.

 

I watch Aberdeen.  I watch Hibs.  People in the media seem to think they're good teams.  I see worse football than we watch every week, I really do.  Plus we have more points.

 

Take the win, applaud the boys for sticking to it.  Let Naisy go back over the game and show them where they had chances to be more adventurous (did you all see him on the touchline when we didn't see good forward passes????  He was livid).

 

Also, you need to see the difference between dropping for the ball and popping it back to the CH, trying to move them around, bring a midfielder with you to open a wee space.  We did this a lot and it worked a bit cos Boyce dropped into the space and the next pass was to him.  That's a tactic, a valid one.  People confused it with taking the ball, there being a pass on wide or forward and popping it back cos that's easy and safe.  That happened too (less), but both scenarios were being booed.  If you dont understand what's in front of you, I'd suggest not booing it.  Actually, I'd suggest just not booing our own team - maybe boo the timewasting or the GFA officials instead?!  Just a thought.

 

100% this.

 

I do think the poor run of results early in the season, mixed with a league where teams have decided sitting deep and in numbers is the only way to play, has scrambled peoples brains in evaluating how we are doing. Are we playing the best we can? Nope. Are we trying to be effective first and its working? Yes. But we are getting results, and its not like its just a couple of games people are basing it on. 

 

I thought Joel Sked put out a great article on Friday on Hearts Standard. He did talk about how the fans need to have patience and give Naismith a real chance and not to make every game out as "must win" for him. I think there is nothing wrong with having high standards, but it does feel like some fans standards are too high at the moment and its meaning reactions can be too extreme.

 

I agree that our biggest problem is that we are not scoring early this season (I would love to see a break down of goals scored by us in the first half and in the second half) and it allows teams to sit deep, soak up the pressure and if playing at Tynecastle, let the fans get on the players backs. If we can score early then I think we will play more like fans want.

 

I also think at the moment we are strong defensively. The crucial thing is that we dont look like our low goals conceded is a fluke, so it bodes well that we dont have to worry we will be found out there, and with Halkett, Gordon and Atkinson coming back it will only get stronger. Our problem is scoring goals, we are really underperforming there, so to me if that clicks then we become a strong team. I could actually see things clicking in December.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

4 hours ago, Hearts1975 said:

It's a completely valid point but it ain't rocket science if u step back from it. 

We haven't replaced ginnellys and mckay's goals and have seriously missed McKay's creativity 

 

Coupled with direct replacements such as Tagawa, Lowrie and Vargas. Hardly any goals collectively. 

 

Last season we pretty much won a lot of games on the back of individual performances. Pre Naismith and when RN was in charge, then yes, there were a few games where the whole team chipped in. 

 

I would say however that was more to do with the former manager working with a more settled side, than the current manager, and less to do with the tactical side. 

 

Just my opinion though.

 

Yeah, I agree. My earlier posts were pushing back on the idea that we're somehow playing Shankland in the wrong place.

 

We haven't replaced Ginnelly either in his role in stretching the defence or his goals. The set of Tagawa, Vargas, Oda, Forrest, Atkinson, Lowry, at Niewenhoff should really be finding about a goal a game collectively among them. Hard to be too hard on Boyce as he was our chief dangerman yesterday and scored the winner in all but name, but he's obviously got to find his shooting touch again some day.

[Hearts1975]

2 hours ago, Led Tasso said:

 

Yeah, I agree. My earlier posts were pushing back on the idea that we're somehow playing Shankland in the wrong place.

 

We haven't replaced Ginnelly either in his role in stretching the defence or his goals. The set of Tagawa, Vargas, Oda, Forrest, Atkinson, Lowry, at Niewenhoff should really be finding about a goal a game collectively among them. Hard to be too hard on Boyce as he was our chief dangerman yesterday and scored the winner in all but name, but he's obviously got to find his shooting touch again some day.

Gotcha 👌

I misread your point re shanks. Makes sense and agree fwiw 

[Boof]

Apologies if it's already been mentioned...but did I spot Saints NOT having 11 men back for one of our corners? Or was I having a mild hallucination trying to watch the game on my phone?

[Goldstone Wonder]

18 minutes ago, Boof said:

Apologies if it's already been mentioned...but did I spot Saints NOT having 11 men back for one of our corners? Or was I having a mild hallucination trying to watch the game on my phone?

They definitely didn't! I noticed that and remarked on it at the game! 

[Star Lizard]

Was listening to SATF just there . Got to disagree with you @Skippy Doodle . It is not the recruitment or the players , it is the chopping and changing by the management team . Vargas and Hoff are excellent one week and then dropped the next . Same apples to lots of our better players . Naismith clearly likes to just change the team and formation depending on who we are playing 

[Skippy Doodle]

2 hours ago, Sooks said:

Was listening to SATF just there . Got to disagree with you @Skippy Doodle . It is not the recruitment or the players , it is the chopping and changing by the management team . Vargas and Hoff are excellent one week and then dropped the next . Same apples to lots of our better players . Naismith clearly likes to just change the team and formation depending on who we are playing 

I do wonder if people listen properly 🤦‍♂️
 

I stressed during the podcast twice that it wasn’t down to individuals

 

i then said the issue with the recruitment was that it was based on Naismith wanting to go with a different shape to that that he has adopted over the past few weeks

[Star Lizard]

13 minutes ago, Skippy Doodle said:

I do wonder if people listen properly 🤦‍♂️
 

I stressed during the podcast twice that it wasn’t down to individuals

 

i then said the issue with the recruitment was that it was based on Naismith wanting to go with a different shape to that that he has adopted over the past few weeks

I did listen , I just disagree . I think we have a very good spine and injuries aside we would have good balance too . We would be better off points wise too , if we had had an experienced manager in from the start 

 

Spine is

 

Gordon

Kent

Beni

Shanks

 

We also have pace in Sibbick , Oda , Vargas and McKay . Forrest no slouch either 

 

Beyond our spine we have very good players in Atkinson , Halkett , Rowles , Cochrane , Kingsley , Boyce , McKay , Oda , Hoff , Devlin , Clark and hopefully Tagawa

 

We have some poorer players too and some who are just past their use by date at the level we require , like Halliday , Grant and Haring

 

Gordon/Clark

 

Cochrane/Kingsley

Kent/Halkett

Rowles/Kingsley

Atkimson/Offiah ( up until now )/Sibbick

 

Beni/Hoff/Devlin/Grant

 

McKay/Oda/Vargas/Forrest

 

Boyce/Shankland 

plenty of balance and a strong spine imo

 

 

Edited November 28, 2023 by Sooks

[Skippy Doodle]

14 minutes ago, Sooks said:

I did listen , I just disagree . I think we have a very good spine and injuries aside we would have good balance too . We would be better off points wise too , if we had had an experienced manager in from the start 

 

Spine is

 

Gordon

Kent

Beni

Shanks

 

We also have pace in Sibbick , Oda , Vargas and McKay . Forrest no slouch either 

 

Beyond our spine we have very good players in Atkinson , Halkett , Rowles , Cochrane , Kingsley , Boyce , McKay , Oda , Hoff , Devlin , Clark and hopefully Tagawa

 

We have some poorer players too and some who are just past their use by date at the level we require , like Halliday , Grant and Haring

 

Gordon/Clark

 

Cochrane/Kingsley

Kent/Halkett

Rowles/Kingsley

Atkimson/Offiah ( up until now )/Sibbick

 

Beni/Hoff/Devlin/Grant

 

McKay/Oda/Vargas/Forrest

 

Boyce/Shankland 

plenty of balance and a strong spine imo

 

 

But you have that squad under the basis of a flat back 4

 

the point I was making about recruitment was not the merits of the players individually but that under our current shape we can’t space to get any pace in the starting XI

 

still a responsibility of Naismith

[Star Lizard]

3 minutes ago, Skippy Doodle said:

But you have that squad under the basis of a flat back 4

 

the point I was making about recruitment was not the merits of the players individually but that under our current shape we can’t space to get any pace in the starting XI

 

still a responsibility of Naismith

I think a back three with Kent , Halkett and Rowles is as good as anything out side of Glasgow and Kingsley has been doing well when asked to play on the right too . Then with Cochrane and Atkinson you have the two wingbacks . I think Sibbick has not developed to the point where we wanted him to and that he was basically the right sided Kingsley where he would play either wide right or right side of a three 

 

I think the players are there to have a balanced side in a fair few formations , but a combination of injuries and the inexperience of the manager chopping and changing too much has cost us points

I agree that it is on Naismith but I disagree about the recruitment strategy 

 

[Skippy Doodle]

9 minutes ago, Sooks said:

I think a back three with Kent , Halkett and Rowles is as good as anything out side of Glasgow and Kingsley has been doing well when asked to play on the right too . Then with Cochrane and Atkinson you have the two wingbacks . I think Sibbick has not developed to the point where we wanted him to and that he was basically the right sided Kingsley where he would play either wide right or right side of a three 

 

I think the players are there to have a balanced side in a fair few formations , but a combination of injuries and the inexperience of the manager chopping and changing too much has cost us points

I agree that it is on Naismith but I disagree about the recruitment strategy 

 

 

Just a quick question then regarding recruitment. 
 

over the past 3 transfer windows which would you say have been a success (appreciate you may want to leave summer ones out given it’s only end of November)

 

here is a list of who we have brought in

 

Kent

Nieuwenhof

Lowry

vargas

tagawa

offiah

forrest

rowles

shankland

neilson

humphries

kio

snodgrass

clark

kuol

hill

oda

grant

 

[Star Lizard]

Just now, Skippy Doodle said:

 

Just a quick question then regarding recruitment. 
 

over the past 3 transfer windows which would you say have been a success (appreciate you may want to leave summer ones out given it’s only end of November)

 

here is a list of who we have brought in

 

Kent - Good find

Nieuwenhof - Like him a lot

Lowry - Useful enough but raw

vargas - Good player but I think he should play centrally

tagawa - Not seen enough to decide , but also one who I would prefer to see centrally more

offiah - Looked decent but health issues . I think he was supposed to be cover for Atkinson

forrest - Done us a turn filling in but not as good as McKay

rowles - Very good defender

shankland - Our best player alongside Gordon

neilson - Young guy progressing well

humphries - Filled in when needed but didnt seem to fit in with what we were doing

kio - Disappointing . Not shite but far from spectacular 

snodgrass - Was found out and continued to be played in a position that opposition managers had sussed 

clark - Been decent cover 

kuol - Did not really fit what we needed 

hill - I liked him and he filled in well centrally before Kent arrived

oda - Top player who will show it again once he is back up to speed 

grant - biggest disappointment for me 

 

 

[Skippy Doodle]

4 minutes ago, Sooks said:

 

Where do the likes of Oda/Vargas fit within the 3 at the back system? 

[Star Lizard]

2 minutes ago, Skippy Doodle said:

Where do the likes of Oda/Vargas fit within the 3 at the back system? 

Naismith says he picks players for different games . I am not a huge fan of that , as I feel it can lead to players who are in form becoming disillusioned , but there we are

 

Vargas plays well centrally for Costa Rica and scores goals there . I would be playing him in front of Shankland or alongside him in place of Boyce . Oda would be wide of a front three for me 

[Skippy Doodle]

5 minutes ago, Sooks said:

Naismith says he picks players for different games . I am not a huge fan of that , as I feel it can lead to players who are in form becoming disillusioned , but there we are

 

Vargas plays well centrally for Costa Rica and scores goals there . I would be playing him in front of Shankland or alongside him in place of Boyce . Oda would be wide of a front three for me 

He will play against teams with a higher line so how do we combat fixtures against the low block? 

[Star Lizard]

4 minutes ago, Skippy Doodle said:

He will play against teams with a higher line so how do we combat fixtures against the low block? 

We do what we have done with a fair amount of success recently , I suppose . We use Shankland and Boyce to pull them around centrally and break them down . Not pretty , but it works 

[Skippy Doodle]

9 minutes ago, Sooks said:

We do what we have done with a fair amount of success recently , I suppose . We use Shankland and Boyce to pull them around centrally and break them down . Not pretty , but it works 

Saturday showed though that some defences are happy to not follow them and let all the play happen in front of them

 

we need more creativity from a deeper position in midfield to compliment Beni

[Star Lizard]

1 minute ago, Skippy Doodle said:

Saturday showed though that some defences are happy to not follow them and let all the play happen in front of them

 

we need more creativity from a deeper position in midfield to compliment Beni

I think Hoff is the man for that job personally , but as mentioned before I think Naismith chops and changes a bit much 

[Skippy Doodle]

43 minutes ago, Sooks said:

I think Hoff is the man for that job personally , but as mentioned before I think Naismith chops and changes a bit much 

He is not a creative midfielder 

 

he is similar to Cammy 

 

Naismith has been fairly consistent with team selection recently only making one or two changes to personnel and sticking to the same shape

 

he also is only manager with a 100% win record in league this month so a good shout for manager of the month award which seems crazy

 

 

[Star Lizard]

3 minutes ago, Skippy Doodle said:

He is not a creative midfielder 

 

he is similar to Cammy 

 

Naismith has been fairly consistent with team selection recently only making one or two changes to personnel and sticking to the same shape

 

he also is only manager with a 100% win record in league this month so a good shout for manager of the month award which seems crazy

 

 

Disagree on Hoff tbh . I think he could be a creative midfielder . More often than not we use Boyce as the false nine in place of a creative midfielder anyway , so Hoff would be playing further back and the creativity would be more out wide . We miss McKay badly and Atkinson too tbf , both create chances . If we were to play a more traditional number ten in the Hartley or Cameron mould then I think Hoff is the man for that . Grant is not up the job imo . The Lowry can play that role too , but playing Lowry , Boyce and Grant was horrible to watch 

[Dazo]

8 hours ago, Skippy Doodle said:

He is not a creative midfielder 

 

he is similar to Cammy 

 

Naismith has been fairly consistent with team selection recently only making one or two changes to personnel and sticking to the same shape

 

he also is only manager with a 100% win record in league this month so a good shout for manager of the month award which seems crazy

 

 

Only seems crazy on here otherwise in which world is it crazy for the only manager with a 100% record to be considered manager of the month ? 
 

Disagree about Hoff being similar to Devlin also, Hoff is technically better in every way. Looks forward when he has the ball and tries to create going forward. I like Cammy but he is a ball winner and not much else. 

[Skippy Doodle]

32 minutes ago, Dazo said:

Only seems crazy on here otherwise in which world is it crazy for the only manager with a 100% record to be considered manager of the month ? 
 

Disagree about Hoff being similar to Devlin also, Hoff is technically better in every way. Looks forward when he has the ball and tries to create going forward. I like Cammy but he is a ball winner and not much else. 

That was the point I was making regarding the 100% record 👍

[Bad Religion]

30 minutes ago, Dazo said:

Only seems crazy on here otherwise in which world is it crazy for the only manager with a 100% record to be considered manager of the month ? 
 

Disagree about Hoff being similar to Devlin also, Hoff is technically better in every way. Looks forward when he has the ball and tries to create going forward. I like Cammy but he is a ball winner and not much else. 

 

I agree that he is different to both Devlin and Beni and will hopefully be able to sit nicely in midfield next to either. He certainly isn't a number 10 or an attacking midfielder though. We need much better quality in this position.