Rawrrrrrrr Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 A bit too convenient for my liking takes them 9 months to issue accounts, 7 months to appoint a manager, yet they can call an EGM for a shares issue in 3/4 weeks conveniently getting it into this years accounts. tbh I cant help but think that vlad has sqaundered all the player cash etc and is hoping he can cover it up with the equity swap as for the equity swap itself it does nothing for hearts and is truly a paper issue, all it means is anyone who would want to buy hearts would need to find an extra 12 mil up front for vlads pockets as opposed to restructuring the debt This coupled with the fact a manager we know nothing about and could well be another yes man, and all is forgiven FFS its nice to see our fans are so easily mugged off Will we be any further forward this time next year? I suspect not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N User Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 This coupled with the fact a manager we know nothing about and could well be another yes man, and all is forgiven FFS its nice to see our fans are so easily mugged off Will we be any further forward this time next year? I suspect not All is not forgiven but the current signs are looking good. We are allowed to be positive when things start to look better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redm Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 Never mind that, Prancer. What are your views on togetherness? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chip Douglas Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 A bit too convenient for my liking takes them 9 months to issue accounts, 7 months to appoint a manager, yet they can call an EGM for a shares issue in 3/4 weeks conveniently getting it into this years accounts. tbh I cant help but think that vlad has sqaundered all the player cash etc and is hoping he can cover it up with the equity swap as for the equity swap itself it does nothing for hearts and is truly a paper issue, all it means is anyone who would want to buy hearts would need to find an extra 12 mil up front for vlads pockets as opposed to restructuring the debt This coupled with the fact a manager we know nothing about and could well be another yes man, and all is forgiven FFS its nice to see our fans are so easily mugged off Will we be any further forward this time next year? I suspect not The boy who cried wolf. You're talking to the wrong crowd here with your incessant conspiracy theories. Come on Prancer, lets see this sustained campaign etched up a couple of notches, I expect to see some direct action, lets see you in the media campaigning to oust Romanov. You're patently a detractor. Or are you just a menial pussy, hiding behind a PC? I won't hold my breath, you contribute nothing to this board and your post is not even designed to provoke debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawrrrrrrr Posted July 17, 2008 Author Share Posted July 17, 2008 Never mind that, Prancer.What are your views on togetherness? Lets not go there together but I bet they still arent allowed to sign a cheque for over ?20 without sending it to kaunas first Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redm Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 Lets not go there together but I bet they still arent allowed to sign a cheque for over ?20 without sending it to kaunas first You're not even a wee bit cheered by Csaba's appointment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jam Tarts 1874 Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 A bit too convenient for my liking takes them 9 months to issue accounts, 7 months to appoint a manager, yet they can call an EGM for a shares issue in 3/4 weeks conveniently getting it into this years accounts. tbh I cant help but think that vlad has sqaundered all the player cash etc and is hoping he can cover it up with the equity swap as for the equity swap itself it does nothing for hearts and is truly a paper issue, all it means is anyone who would want to buy hearts would need to find an extra 12 mil up front for vlads pockets as opposed to restructuring the debt This coupled with the fact a manager we know nothing about and could well be another yes man, and all is forgiven FFS its nice to see our fans are so easily mugged off Will we be any further forward this time next year? I suspect not Why don't you shut up? You clearly know nothing about what the debt to equity scheme is all about by your stupid comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rumbles1874 Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 Lets not go there together but I bet they still arent allowed to sign a cheque for over ?20 without sending it to kaunas first thing whole point is that we are all in this together the board might be playing games,they not allowed sign cheques with out being given the ok but i for one will not give up on the team i love i hope to see all the true fans at the games singing together!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawrrrrrrr Posted July 17, 2008 Author Share Posted July 17, 2008 Why don't you shut up? You clearly know nothing about what the debt to equity scheme is all about by your stupid comments. Please explain it in detail for me then? No one is 12 million worse off, and no one is 12 million better off, all that has happened is 12 million has been transferred from one of vlads entities to another one, furthermore it just means vlad is further entrenched in hearts and makes it even harder for him to ever be removed with hearts surviving Not to mention the fact vlad could compel the sale of all shares and completely hide what he is doing to our club This share issue is completely pointless and is simply giving vlad further power to screw us silly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 Please explain it in detail for me then? No one is 12 million worse off, and no one is 12 million better off, all that has happened is 12 million has been transferred from one of vlads entities to another one, furthermore it just means vlad is further entrenched in hearts and makes it even harder for him to ever be removed with hearts surviving Not to mention the fact vlad could compel the sale of all shares and completely hide what he is doing to our club This share issue is completely pointless and is simply giving vlad further power to screw us silly By that logic then, the rest of the debt doesn't matter now and you won't mention it again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rab Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 As much as I disagree with him, there's nothing wrong with anything Prancer said. If you disagree, explain why you think he's wrong. If he annoys you, put him on ignore. Pretty simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
givememychoice Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 prancer, I am not quite sure how you struggle to grasp the share issue dealing. We are paying Ukio Bankas interest on our debt. Ukio Bankas do not own hearts. Romanov does not own Hearts. UBIG is the major shareholder. They are increasing the value of the company (at least claimed value). In reality, the value is how much somebody will sell/buy for. If our whole debt was wiped out under this issue, then we would be out of debt. And if UBIG then sold all their shares for 1p, we would have a new owner and no debt. If the debt remained at 35ish million, then, any new owner would have the share price to pay AND also a debt burden to take on. Debt is a lot more constant. Share value is very flexible. While UBIG remain in control, the visible benefit to the club will be negligible. But, it becomes easier/more attractive for a new owner to come in. Think about it this way. If our debt was ?35m and our assets were ?25m, if Vlad got bored, we would need him to sort out a bid of 10million from the shares to break even on the exit costs. so, if the only offer was ?5m, he could just close the business down as being bankrupt. This would be less of a loss for him. Now however, given that the gordon money, bednar AND the 12m, our debt may be about ?18m and our assets about ?25m. This is much more marketable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lost in leith Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 A bit too convenient for my liking takes them 9 months to issue accounts, 7 months to appoint a manager, yet they can call an EGM for a shares issue in 3/4 weeks conveniently getting it into this years accounts. tbh I cant help but think that vlad has sqaundered all the player cash etc and is hoping he can cover it up with the equity swap as for the equity swap itself it does nothing for hearts and is truly a paper issue, all it means is anyone who would want to buy hearts would need to find an extra 12 mil up front for vlads pockets as opposed to restructuring the debt This coupled with the fact a manager we know nothing about and could well be another yes man, and all is forgiven FFS its nice to see our fans are so easily mugged off Will we be any further forward this time next year? I suspect not Think you'll find that a transaction like the debt for equity swap takes a long time to organise. The debt for equity swap does nothing for Hearts, apart from the minor point that it will improve the balance sheet by ?12m! Your argument only makes sense if you swallow the line that it doesn't matter what the debt is because he owes himself money. Thankfully that line seems to have died a death Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawrrrrrrr Posted July 17, 2008 Author Share Posted July 17, 2008 prancer, I am not quite sure how you struggle to grasp the share issue dealing.We are paying Ukio Bankas interest on our debt. Ukio Bankas do not own hearts. Romanov does not own Hearts. UBIG is the major shareholder. They are increasing the value of the company (at least claimed value). In reality, the value is how much somebody will sell/buy for. If our whole debt was wiped out under this issue, then we would be out of debt. And if UBIG then sold all their shares for 1p, we would have a new owner and no debt. If the debt remained at 35ish million, then, any new owner would have the share price to pay AND also a debt burden to take on. Debt is a lot more constant. Share value is very flexible. While UBIG remain in control, the visible benefit to the club will be negligible. But, it becomes easier/more attractive for a new owner to come in. Think about it this way. If our debt was ?35m and our assets were ?25m, if Vlad got bored, we would need him to sort out a bid of 10million from the shares to break even on the exit costs. so, if the only offer was ?5m, he could just close the business down as being bankrupt. This would be less of a loss for him. Now however, given that the gordon money, bednar AND the 12m, our debt may be about ?18m and our assets about ?25m. This is much more marketable. Not really as the club is valued at what vlad/ubig want for it do you really believe they would just write this 12 mn off? If they chose to sell they would just recover that on there sale value of the club All they have done is transfer 12 mn around there entities and if they did ever choose to sell hearts they would recover it then without a doubt imo Hearts as a sepearate legal entity from vlad and ubig imo are no better off financially for this decision and we are certainly not in a better position to be sold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawrrrrrrr Posted July 17, 2008 Author Share Posted July 17, 2008 Think you'll find that a transaction like the debt for equity swap takes a long time to organise. The debt for equity swap does nothing for Hearts, apart from the minor point that it will improve the balance sheet by ?12m! Your argument only makes sense if you swallow the line that it doesn't matter what the debt is because he owes himself money. Thankfully that line seems to have died a death While the club is under his ownership it doesnt have any affect day to day Tbh I simply dont believe we have any sort of meaningful future under VR and I would happily see him go, this 12 mn transfer just makes this even more impossible The timing concerns me as well as it seems they are very keen to get it in this years accounts, why exactly? I would have to suggest they havent cut the debt anywhere near as much as they should have this year and are trying to hide this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loveofthegame Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 I don't see what was so wrong and deserving of all the abuse about Prancer's post. He was just putting his spin on things (albeit negative). Surely he is entitled to this opinion though?! Yes the share issue is a start. Yes there is a manager in place(who I think sounds promising but in reality, like everyone else on this board, know next to nothing about). But there is still a long long way to go. Our playing squad is still, regardless of what some on here seem to think, bottom 6 at best. Serious rebuilding needs done. Most of the youngsters dont appear to be ready yet, and most of the senior players are utter gash. We're 2 full backs, 1 centre half, 1 wide midfielder and 2 strikers(unless Nade gets his act together) short of a decent side.... but apart from that we're rosey! And thats not even thinking about back ups when injuries and suspensions kick in. So yes, there are a few positives which is a start. But until Vlad invests in the playing squad and until we see that Csaba had full control of the side, I will remain unconvinced- as i have every right too. We've seen it and heard it all before with Vlad, he has a lot still to prove. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lost in leith Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 While the club is under his ownership it doesnt have any affect day to day Tbh I simply dont believe we have any sort of meaningful future under VR and I would happily see him go, this 12 mn transfer just makes this even more impossible The timing concerns me as well as it seems they are very keen to get it in this years accounts, why exactly? I would have to suggest they havent cut the debt anywhere near as much as they should have this year and are trying to hide this As it happens I am in the camp who would happily see Vlad leave tomorrow. The problem is that there isn't a credible alternative out there, and Vlad doesn't have to sell if he doesn't want to. One of my initial thoughts when I heard about the deal was that this might be part of an exit strategy. Before the deal no sane investor would give Vlad a penny. With the balance sheet improved by ?12m he might get a nibble. I'm not sure why the transaction has to go through during this financial year. That's a valid question, and it will no doubt be raised at the EGM. I don't follow the argument that they are trying to 'hide' anything. All will be revealed in next year's accounts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamdub Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 A bit too convenient for my liking takes them 9 months to issue accounts, 7 months to appoint a manager, yet they can call an EGM for a shares issue in 3/4 weeks conveniently getting it into this years accounts. tbh I cant help but think that vlad has sqaundered all the player cash etc and is hoping he can cover it up with the equity swap as for the equity swap itself it does nothing for hearts and is truly a paper issue, all it means is anyone who would want to buy hearts would need to find an extra 12 mil up front for vlads pockets as opposed to restructuring the debt This coupled with the fact a manager we know nothing about and could well be another yes man, and all is forgiven FFS its nice to see our fans are so easily mugged off Will we be any further forward this time next year? I suspect not Welcome back, :sobored: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vilenin Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 I don't see what was so wrong and deserving of all the abuse about Prancer's post. He was just putting his spin on things (albeit negative). Surely he is entitled to this opinion though?! Apparently not. Once the majority decide positivity is the in thing then anyone questioning that is a hobo or a troll. The situation between now and a month ago is to all intents and purposes the much the same - tema's still ****e, Vald's still an arse and we have a manager we know **** all about but who's certainly no world-beater. Before everyone decides that everything's rosy maybe we should wait and see the first few games? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troonjambo Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 Why don't you shut up? You clearly know nothing about what the debt to equity scheme is all about by your stupid comments. sorry please explain it to me as well, why instead of a general share issue in which all the clubs fans and existing shareholders ,some off whose family holdings in hearts stretch back longer than Mr Romanov has been alive on this earth,could participate is better than a debt for equity move which will end hearts as a company and turn it into Mr Romanov private toy there is nothing wrong with that it by the way if Mr Romanov had a history of running the club in a professional manner. as I nor any of the other shareholders I SUSPECT ??? have the millions of pounds required to secure hearts survival however don't kid yourself this is just a paper exercise in order to do away with the smaller shareholders and Q.E.D having to submit accounts and answer hostile questions at a a.g.m. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troonjambo Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 Yes the share issue is a start. this is not a share issue a share issue allows all existing shareholders to by the same proportion of shares that they already hold this is a debt for share deal which will allow Mr Romanov's front company's to pass the threshold in which they can legally purchase the remaining shares in the company compulsorily Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scots civil war Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 maybe some of you lot should go check out macbeths dissection of the baltic dwarfs financial ****ed up jolly at our expense on the "romanov pumping money in" thread,before you go slagging the op off.......startling stuff indeed. both threads are totally relevant and are more interesting than the ****ing team right now.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 maybe some of you lot should go check out macbeths dissection of the baltic dwarfs financial ****ed up jolly at our expense on the "romanov pumping money in" thread,before you go slagging the op off.......startling stuff indeed. both threads are totally relevant and are more interesting than the ****ing team right now.......... It was hardly a dissection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redm Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 You're not even a wee bit cheered by Csaba's appointment? No? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiamWallace Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 A bit too convenient for my liking takes them 9 months to issue accounts, 7 months to appoint a manager, yet they can call an EGM for a shares issue in 3/4 weeks conveniently getting it into this years accounts. tbh I cant help but think that vlad has sqaundered all the player cash etc and is hoping he can cover it up with the equity swap as for the equity swap itself it does nothing for hearts and is truly a paper issue, all it means is anyone who would want to buy hearts would need to find an extra 12 mil up front for vlads pockets as opposed to restructuring the debt This coupled with the fact a manager we know nothing about and could well be another yes man, and all is forgiven FFS its nice to see our fans are so easily mugged off Will we be any further forward this time next year? I suspect not Things are looking up for us and it's posts liek this that are stopping us getting anywhere why can't we just accept that things have improved and look forward to the season? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawrrrrrrr Posted July 17, 2008 Author Share Posted July 17, 2008 Things are looking up for us and it's posts liek this that are stopping us getting anywhere why can't we just accept that things have improved and look forward to the season? Why have things improved? And as already mentioned if vlad truly wanted to reduce the debt why not a share issue with them underwriting the extra ones ala David Murray at rangers, at least this way there wouldnt have been so much entrenchment and more importantly there would have been some actual debt reduction as opposed to a paper exercise I am undecided about Csaba RedM, he says the right things but tbh until he starts proving he isnt just another yes man I am firmly undecided Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Albert Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 Aas for the equity swap itself it does nothing for hearts and is truly a paper issue, all it means is anyone who would want to buy hearts would need to find an extra 12 mil up front for vlads pockets as opposed to restructuring the debt So if Vlad had increased the debt of the Hearts entity by ?12m and the interest payments by ?600k you would have been on here arguing it didn't matter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiamWallace Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 Why have things improved? And as already mentioned if vlad truly wanted to reduce the debt why not a share issue with them underwriting the extra ones ala David Murray at rangers, at least this way there wouldnt have been so much entrenchment and more importantly there would have been some actual debt reduction as opposed to a paper exercise I am undecided about Csaba RedM, he says the right things but tbh until he starts proving he isnt just another yes man I am firmly undecided To be honest I don't really understand the difference between the shares things but ?12m of the debt must be a good thing and also getting the manager in who was well thought of in Uganda must also be seen as an improvement from Shaggy no offence to him but he wasn't up to it. the news has been better coming out Tynecastle and looks like Vlad is finally starting to deliver to me anyway but like I said some of it I don't really understsand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawrrrrrrr Posted July 17, 2008 Author Share Posted July 17, 2008 So if Vlad had increased the debt of the Hearts entity by ?12m and the interest payments by ?600k you would have been on here arguing it didn't matter? We know very little about our debt charges/ interest as it is What if vlad has say sqaundered most of the transfer fees we took in last year? Is it still a great deal then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Albert Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 We know very little about our debt charges/ interest as it is What if vlad has say sqaundered most of the transfer fees we took in last year? Is it still a great deal then? You avoid the question. Obviously if Vlad has "squandered" the transfer fees it would be a very bad thing. How about my question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawrrrrrrr Posted July 17, 2008 Author Share Posted July 17, 2008 You avoid the question. Obviously if Vlad has "squandered" the transfer fees it would be a very bad thing. How about my question? At the end of the day if we are actually saving that money next year fair enough its a benefit but then lets not lose account of the fact that vlad has probably wasted far more than that in unncessary compo payments, legal costs, ridicolous wage bills etc etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Albert Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 At the end of the day if we are actually saving that money next year fair enough its a benefit but then lets not lose account of the fact that vlad has probably wasted far more than that in unncessary compo payments, legal costs, ridicolous wage bills etc etc That's a "no" then. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adayinmay Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 prancer, I am not quite sure how you struggle to grasp the share issue dealing.We are paying Ukio Bankas interest on our debt. Ukio Bankas do not own hearts. Romanov does not own Hearts. UBIG is the major shareholder. They are increasing the value of the company (at least claimed value). In reality, the value is how much somebody will sell/buy for. If our whole debt was wiped out under this issue, then we would be out of debt. And if UBIG then sold all their shares for 1p, we would have a new owner and no debt. If the debt remained at 35ish million, then, any new owner would have the share price to pay AND also a debt burden to take on. Debt is a lot more constant. Share value is very flexible. While UBIG remain in control, the visible benefit to the club will be negligible. But, it becomes easier/more attractive for a new owner to come in. Think about it this way. If our debt was ?35m and our assets were ?25m, if Vlad got bored, we would need him to sort out a bid of 10million from the shares to break even on the exit costs. so, if the only offer was ?5m, he could just close the business down as being bankrupt. This would be less of a loss for him. Now however, given that the gordon money, bednar AND the 12m, our debt may be about ?18m and our assets about ?25m. This is much more marketable. And this is the main point of the share issue for me. By doing this VR ensures his money back. Previously for someone to buy out VR they would only have had to pay the worth of the existing shares and then inherit the debt, but now there are more shares and less debt the purchase price for any potential buyer is effectively ?12m higher. Also this share issue will help VR move forward, if he wants, with the redevelopment. My query is similar to a point made in the OP. Why could this not have been done 2 years ago when he gained majority control? Why now? In the end of the day it has to be seen as a positive, but with what consequence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lost in leith Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 We know very little about our debt charges/ interest as it is What if vlad has say sqaundered most of the transfer fees we took in last year? Is it still a great deal then? I've had a stab at explaining how this works - see post 70 on this thread. http://www.hmfckickback.co.uk/showthread.php?t=20964&page=2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Albert Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 And this is the main point of the share issue for me.By doing this VR ensures his money back. Previously for someone to buy out VR they would only have had to pay the worth of the existing shares and then inherit the debt, but now there are more shares and less debt the purchase price for any potential buyer is effectively ?12m higher. "Ensures his money back"? Absolute nonsense. For someone to buy out Vlad they have to pay what he wants. As true before as after the share issue. The shares, before and after, are I think worth diddly squat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawrrrrrrr Posted July 17, 2008 Author Share Posted July 17, 2008 "Ensures his money back"? Absolute nonsense. For someone to buy out Vlad they have to pay what he wants. As true before as after the share issue. The shares, before and after, are I think worth diddly squat. Scenario A - Before swap - buyer offers Vlad 10 million and will take control of debt Scenario B - After Swap - Buyer makes same offer Do you think in scenario B vlad would want the same price? would he hell all that happened is he has swapped the debt from one entity to another, anyone who was later to try asnd buy out vlad would simply find the actual capital value they would pay to acquire the club would be higher, whereas below the swap they could have paid less to acquire the club and restructured the debt. Simply put vlad is not out of pocket here and if he ever does sell up he will just whack at least 12 mil on the sale value to cover the debt swapped out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Albert Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 Scenario A - Before swap - buyer offers Vlad 10 million and will take control of debt Scenario B - After Swap - Buyer makes same offer Do you think in scenario B vlad would want the same price? No. Because despite the tabloid myth Vlad is not mad. The Hearts entity with less debt is obviously worth more than the Hearts entity with more debt. (Remembering that a smaller negative is bigger than a larger negative.) But reducing the debt is not cost free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adayinmay Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 Scenario A - Before swap - buyer offers Vlad 10 million and will take control of debt Scenario B - After Swap - Buyer makes same offer Do you think in scenario B vlad would want the same price? would he hell all that happened is he has swapped the debt from one entity to another, anyone who was later to try asnd buy out vlad would simply find the actual capital value they would pay to acquire the club would be higher, whereas below the swap they could have paid less to acquire the club and restructured the debt. Simply put vlad is not out of pocket here and if he ever does sell up he will just whack at least 12 mil on the sale value to cover the debt swapped out my point exactly. Thanks for explaining it to Francis Albert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 Scenario A - Before swap - buyer offers Vlad 10 million and will take control of debt Scenario B - After Swap - Buyer makes same offer Do you think in scenario B vlad would want the same price? would he hell all that happened is he has swapped the debt from one entity to another, anyone who was later to try asnd buy out vlad would simply find the actual capital value they would pay to acquire the club would be higher, whereas below the swap they could have paid less to acquire the club and restructured the debt. Simply put vlad is not out of pocket here and if he ever does sell up he will just whack at least 12 mil on the sale value to cover the debt swapped out Oh dear! It makes no difference to any "sale price" because he would have had to take a haircut on the debt anyway if he had to sell. There is no way that swapping 12 million for equity will add 12 million to any sale price. Otherwise he would swap the lot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawrrrrrrr Posted July 17, 2008 Author Share Posted July 17, 2008 No. Because despite the tabloid myth Vlad is not mad. The Hearts entity with less debt is obviously worth more than the Hearts entity with more debt. (Remembering that a smaller negative is bigger than a larger negative.) But reducing the debt is not cost free. Yes but it makes it far harder for anyone else to oust romanov as they need far more capital up front to do so Before this they could have paid less to acquire the club and restructured debt, now they would need at least 12mn extra up front Its a win win for romanov, appeases some of the less intelligent fans who cant see through this and ensures we are well and truly at his mercies moreso than before The more I think about this equity swap the more I become convinced its a bad move for hearts the football club Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Albert Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 The more I think about this equity swap the more I become convinced its a bad move for hearts the football club So if he had moved more debt into Hearts it would have been a good thing? Clearly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 Yes but it makes it far harder for anyone else to oust romanov as they need far more capital up front to do so Before this they could have paid less to acquire the club and restructured debt, now they would need at least 12mn extra up front Its a win win for romanov, appeases some of the less intelligent fans who cant see through this and ensures we are well and truly at his mercies moreso than before The more I think about this equity swap the more I become convinced its a bad move for hearts the football club Why do you think a company's share price falls if it announces a rights issue on the stock exchange? This debt is being exchanged for 35p a share, the same price that Vlad bought into the club at. Do you really think that this is the true share price of HMFC? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawrrrrrrr Posted July 17, 2008 Author Share Posted July 17, 2008 So if he had moved more debt into Hearts it would have been a good thing? Clearly. What a stupid analogy You could possibly argue yes if the extra debt made us more valuable or sustainable but that apart the 2 points are completely opposite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawrrrrrrr Posted July 17, 2008 Author Share Posted July 17, 2008 Why do you think a company's share price falls if it announces a rights issue on the stock exchange? This debt is being exchanged for 35p a share, the same price that Vlad bought into the club at. Do you really think that this is the true share price of HMFC? The problem is vlad could sell for whatever he wants, of all the things vlad is, he isnt stupid, if he was to ever sell hearts he will be recouping that 12 million somewhere, most likely his sale price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lost in leith Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 Yes but it makes it far harder for anyone else to oust romanov as they need far more capital up front to do so Before this they could have paid less to acquire the club and restructured debt, now they would need at least 12mn extra up front Its a win win for romanov, appeases some of the less intelligent fans who cant see through this and ensures we are well and truly at his mercies moreso than before The more I think about this equity swap the more I become convinced its a bad move for hearts the football club Thanks - I was waiting for someone more intelligent to explain things to me. I now realise that the whole thing is a complete con - probably best for me to go to bed and cry myself to sleep. It must be quite satisfying being so much smarter than anyone else on the planet - well done Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawrrrrrrr Posted July 17, 2008 Author Share Posted July 17, 2008 Thanks - I was waiting for someone more intelligent to explain things to me. I now realise that the whole thing is a complete con - probably best for me to go to bed and cry myself to sleep. It must be quite satisfying being so much smarter than anyone else on the planet - well done sorry but all those fans going on as if we are suddenly 12 mn better off really need to have what has happened properly explained to them This is solely a paper exercise and one which could help bury our club in the long term Vlad is using this to muster some morale but it really is not a good thing for hearts, especially if like I you think vlad needs to go Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Albert Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 What a stupid analogy You could possibly argue yes if the extra debt made us more valuable or sustainable but that apart the 2 points are completely opposite So having a different debt to equity ratio may or may not be a good thing. And the one that existed before the recent share issue was absolutely optimal. Silly Vlad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 sorry but all those fans going on as if we are suddenly 12 mn better off really need to have what has happened properly explained to them This is solely a paper exercise and one which could help bury our club in the long term Vlad is using this to muster some morale but it really is not a good thing for hearts, especially if like I you think vlad needs to go I agree with you on the first point but I fail to see how it makes the second point any more likely than it was before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eastender Posted July 18, 2008 Share Posted July 18, 2008 sorry but all those fans going on as if we are suddenly 12 mn better off really need to have what has happened properly explained to them This is solely a paper exercise and one which could help bury our club in the long term Vlad is using this to muster some morale but it really is not a good thing for hearts, especially if like I you think vlad needs to go Prancer, appreciate your concerns but I don't think anybody actually thinks we're ?12M better off ... we're just ?12M less worse off ! I agree that it is a 'paper exercise' as are all transactions of this nature, but I do think that it's an attempt to sensibly restructure our club's debt. Positive move as far as I'm concerned ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
269miles Posted July 18, 2008 Share Posted July 18, 2008 sorry but all those fans going on as if we are suddenly 12 mn better off really need to have what has happened properly explained to them This is solely a paper exercise and one which could help bury our club in the long term Vlad is using this to muster some morale but it really is not a good thing for hearts, especially if like I you think vlad needs to go To the first point : 'we' are , as one of the intentions is that the club wil become a more attractive proposition hopefully , for investors in the new stadium scenario. In which case the timing of this is indeed critical. Your second point is simply wrong. We were buried by Robinson : Vlad saved our bacon and like him or loath him ( I tend towards loathing currently) he has done more for the club than Robinson ever could have. Still a long way to go though, obviously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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