4-2-3-1

[Guest JamboRobbo]

It's not the 4-2-3-1 that is the problem - as 4-4-2 or any other formation system isn't the solution - it is the players positioning and movement and passing that is the problem DH - it is not quick enough or accurate enough nor is their enough movement in any of the formations we have played since Skacel-Hartley-Jankauskas combination - and that is they key - thesame level of movement and combination those 3 had simply isn't there and needs to be re-learned and recreated.

 

So basically, you've finally noticed that we sold all our good players and replaced them with rubbish.

[Drylaw Hearts]

It's not the 4-2-3-1 that is the problem - as 4-4-2 or any other formation system isn't the solution - it is the players positioning and movement and passing that is the problem DH - it is not quick enough or accurate enough nor is their enough movement in any of the formations we have played since Skacel-Hartley-Jankauskas combination - and that is they key - thesame level of movement and combination those 3 had simply isn't there and needs to be re-learned and recreated.

 

When you have the current bunch of players we have.......

 

4-2-3-1 IS a problem.

 

You can only p with the c**k you've got.

[Charlie-Brown]

Correct. We need to get rid of virtually all of our midfield and front players and start again. The 4-5-1 is even less suited to our players than 4-4-2.

 

 

 

Fyssas had some fantastic ability but gave away the ball more than any of the other defenders. But, the missing link in the past 2 seasons has been the loss of Brellier. He came short and picked up the ball from the defenders and unfussily passed it on to the attacking players.

 

As for not having Jankauskas - the burden of not having a striker who can hold the ball up is even greater with 1 up front - as we saw last season.

 

Anyway, who in the wonderful 1-2-1-2-3-1 formation is expected to be the second 1? Zaliukas?

 

It can be any one of the centre backs depending who has the ball - Berra/Karipidis or Berra/Zaliukas or Zali/Kari - if one steps forward and one steps back even only 5 yards then it gives whoever in the back 4 has the ball a pass forward or behind and they can play around the strikers trying to close them - if they play in a flat line of 4 when they have the ball they can only play square passes making closing down and cutting out passes much easier for the opposition. Static play in defence is as big a problem starting our attacking moves as static players in front of them is.

 

Brellier dropping deep to receive passes created the same triangle options for passing that the defence could create for themselves with better movement and positioning when they have the ball.

[Coco]

It can be any one of the centre backs depending who has the ball - Berra/Karipidis or Berra/Zaliukas or Zali/Kari - if one steps forward and one steps back even only 5 yards then it gives whoever in the back 4 has the ball a pass forward or behind and they can play around the strikers trying to close them - if they play in a flat line of 4 when they have the ball they can only play square passes making closing down and cutting out passes much easier for the opposition. Static play in defence is as big a problem starting our attacking moves as static players in front of them is.

 

I hope Hearts do not even think about this. Would be crazy given how poor our midfield/forwards are at keeping the ball, not to mention the lack of awareness in Zaliukas' play. The opposition would love it if the back 4 started this nonsense. Might be fine in theoretical books on formations but it would be rank in the SPL.

Brellier dropping deep to receive passes created the same triangle options for passing that the defence could create for themselves with better movement and positioning when they have the ball.

Yes, but without pulling the defenders out of position. Where do the opposition strikers go when Zaliukas steps out into midfield? They push right up on your remaining centre back - Zaliukas/Ksnavicius lose the ball - one pass from the opposition and they are right in on goal.

 

With the players we have at centre back and midfield/front I am not sure there is a ranker formation/setup than 1-2-1-2-3-1.

[Ribble]

Think people are getting a bit too worked up about the 4-2-3-1 formation, Csaba has said after last nights game that he's finished experimenting and has assessed all the players. Could it be that he has used the 4-2-3-1 formation to test the adaptability of the players in the squad and to see how they react to an unfamiliar formation.

He has already said that his prefered formation is 4-4-2 but wants players that can handle changing from this to a diamond midfield or 4-3-3 during the game!!

[Coco]

Think people are getting a bit too worked up about the 4-2-3-1 formation, Csaba has said after last nights game that he's finished experimenting and has assessed all the players. Could it be that he has used the 4-2-3-1 formation to test the adaptability of the players in the squad and to see how they react to an unfamiliar formation.

He has already said that his prefered formation is 4-4-2 but wants players that can handle changing from this to a diamond midfield or 4-3-3 during the game!!

 

That was the formation we were using last season, as introduced by VR/Chernenkov.

[magicTs]

It's not the 4-2-3-1 that is the problem - as 4-4-2 or any other formation system isn't the solution - it is the players positioning and movement and passing that is the problem DH - it is not quick enough or accurate enough nor is their enough movement in any of the formations we have played since Skacel-Hartley-Jankauskas combination - and that is they key - thesame level of movement and combination those 3 had simply isn't there and needs to be re-learned and recreated.

 

"Re-learned and recreated" - crap players will always be crap players.

[Charlie-Brown]

"Re-learned and recreated" - crap players will always be crap players.

 

Crap players will always be crap players in pure terms however teams like Motherwell & Falkirk & Killie etc. don't have too many spectacular players but they do have teamwork - movement, running, passing options that allows them to function better as a team.

[Coco]

Crap players will always be crap players in pure terms however teams like Motherwell & Falkirk & Killie etc. don't have too many spectacular players but they do have teamwork - movement, running, passing options that allows them to function better as a team.

 

What has been the one biggest single factor behind us not functioning well as a team in the last 2 years?

[magicTs]

Crap players will always be crap players in pure terms however teams like Motherwell & Falkirk & Killie etc. don't have too many spectacular players but they do have teamwork - movement, running, passing options that allows them to function better as a team.

 

They also need to pick up win (and draw) bonuses unlike our overpaid and overrated diddies. Csaba has an almighty job as not only does he have to revamp the whole footballing setup but do it whilst the mad one is no doubt sticking his tuppence (or should that be lita) in at every opportunity. We have about 5 or 6 players who should be first team picks.

[Jammy T]

From what I have read generally it seems as if we are basically playing the same system as last year.

 

Now, whether or not this is Csaba's preferred system is a moot point. Thats the benefit of choosing a coach none of us know anything about. It makes his preferences, lets say, more ambiguous.

 

So one obvious concern is that there is very much a committee in play here and we are simply continuing with last seasons mistakes

 

However, giving things a chance, lets say this system is Csaba's preference, or even that he feels he needs to see the players in last seasons system to make assessments of them, it is patently obvious that the players we have are not best suited for that system

 

An element of coaching might improve things, but the reality of life is that certain players are better suited to certain systems

 

It is abundantly obvious that Stewart or Ruben or Jonsson or Aguiar will never be a Hartley type player. They dont have the zip, the pace.

 

We dont have any Janny type players. No-one at Hearts has his touch. His ability to hold off players and create space for himself

 

We have nothing close to the wider players needed to succeed in a 3 behind the 1. Rudi would be perfect for such a formation. You essentially need a guy that can be comfortable out wide but can also score like a striker when he gets the chance. Driver COULD develop that way. If Beslija had been the player we thought he was that might have worked.

 

There is one left sided SPL player that would fit that bill though - Riordan

 

Now it may be that NMH would argue - the players need time to develop new skills to fit into this system, and we have youth players coming through that might do the job.

 

This would advocate another period of transition and players getting used to new things.

 

I had a debate with NMH 2 years ago about our results, and the players being used in wrong position and rotated, and the negative results we had and I was told - thats what you get with youth, its transitional, its adapting them for the future

 

I replied that tomorrow never comes with arguments like that and you have to have some sort of strategy to compete "in the moment"

 

Well, tomorrow still isnt here yet.

 

Players need to be flexible, but then maybe so do coaches. If players at the club do not work within a system and no replacements come in, maybe the system needs to change

 

Craig Levein once said that he has the preferences for how he would like his team to play football and what system to use but that you have to adapt it depending upon the squad you have

 

I dont know how anyone could disagree with that?

[Charlie-Brown]

What has been the one biggest single factor behind us not functioning well as a team in the last 2 years?

 

Lack of intelligent movement in all areas of the pitch.

[Drylaw Hearts]

Lack of intelligent movement in all areas of the pitch.

 

 

I think we all know that isn't the real reason NMH.

[Guest JamboRobbo]

Lack of intelligent movement in all areas of the pitch.

 

And why do we lack intelligent movement in all areas of the pitch? Did our players just magically decide to not bother moving intelligently?

[Coco]

Lack of intelligent movement in all areas of the pitch.

 

 

You can have another go, just this once I won't take your first answer!

[Charlie-Brown]

And why do we lack intelligent movement in all areas of the pitch? Did our players just magically decide to not bother moving intelligently?

 

It was only in the last 20 minutes last nite that the players figured out the positions and runs they needed to be making and that is when we created 4 or 5 good scoring chances and really should have scored.....it was also when Mole, Husband & Templeton played in the attacking positions assisted by Cesnauskis & Stewart - the one thing the kids injected was a greater level of desire and willingness to move, make runs etc. before that we had been very static.....the defenders also stopped playing less square and we didn'thit a brick wall looking for passes out of the defence.

 

The one big positive about last night is that we didn't disintegrate & resort to punts or long balls, even though the passing & movement could have been much better at least we never stopped passing or playing it on the deck,that was the mostb pleasing thing.

[Drylaw Hearts]

The one big positive about last night is that we didn't disintegrate & resort to punts or long balls, even though the passing & movement could have been much better at least we never stopped passing or playing it on the deck,that was the mostb pleasing thing.

 

 

 

 

 

[Charlie-Brown]

 

You can have another go, just this once I won't take your first answer!

 

Lack of a Jankauskis type centre forward has been the biggest factor impacting on the number of SPL goals scored.

 

Apart from 2005-06 our forward play has been a big problem for about 4-5 years, we only scored 43, 47 & 45 SPL goals in seasons 04-05, 06-07 & 07-08 and we didn't score that many more goals in Levein's seasons either.

 

Possession usually begins in defence and our defenders use of the ball has been simplistic and limited to say the best - of course the overall movement of the whole team further up the field hasn't been great either - this is what Csaba needs to work on - how the defence plays better ball out of defence and links with the midfield & attack as well as how the midfield & attack interact. But overall better passing and more intelligent movement.

[vegas-voss]

He's trying to fit square pegs into round holes.

 

We don't the players capable to play 4-2-3-1.

 

Surely you should find a system that suits your players rather than fit them into a formation that you cleary don't have the personnel for ?

 

What system suits our players then because i have seen us be absolute **** playing 4-4-2 as well.I think we are only short of a couple of players to make this system work.God if Falkirk can play this system and play it pretty well surely we can.Proper coaching for a sustained time using the system is whats needed not oh this aint working after a couple of games lets try something else mentality.People on this board are just far too obssessed with 4-4-2 they can't or don't won't to except anything else.

[Colonel Kurtz]

I predict we will not play 4 2 3 1 again pre season.

We will play 4 4 2 or 4 4 1 1 as we played for about 10 minutes last nigh,with the second striker playing slightly deeper than the main striker.

Moley played just behind Glen ,but I would reverse the roles

[Drylaw Hearts]

I predict we will not play 4 2 3 1 again pre season.

We will play 4 4 2 or 4 4 1 1 as we played for about 10 minutes last nigh,with the second striker playing slightly deeper than the main striker.

Moley played just behind Glen ,but I would reverse the roles

 

Our best spell in the match was when Husband played behind Mole.

[Coco]

Lack of a Jankauskis type centre forward has been the biggest factor impacting on the number of SPL goals scored.

 

Apart from 2005-06 our forward play has been a big problem for about 4-5 years, we only scored 43, 47 & 45 SPL goals in seasons 04-05, 06-07 & 07-08 and we didn't score that many more goals in Levein's seasons either.

 

Possession usually begins in defence and our defenders use of the ball has been simplistic and limited to say the best - of course the overall movement of the whole team further up the field hasn't been great either - this is what Csaba needs to work on - how the defence plays better ball out of defence and links with the midfield & attack as well as how the midfield & attack interact. But overall better passing and more intelligent movement.

 

4 out of 10.

 

There is obviously truth in what you say here, but it is not the right answer to the question - as we all know.

[LiamWallace]

 

Having watched 2 attempts a 4-2-3-1 it is clear a hell it's not going to work.

 

Unless he signs 10 new players to fit the system.

 

I only seen one attempt but it is not a good system at all and i would like a 442 instead unless he can bring in oplayers to fit the system then it might work.

[Debut 4]

Although Csaba said we changed it I don't think we did.

 

Mole definately played behind Glen and then Husband played behind Mole when he came on for Glen.

 

At no point did we have 2 strikers playing alongside each other in the traditional 4-4-2 way.

I just do not understand why we do not play 4-4-2???

 

It`s ok saying the players have to adapt to other formations when asked(which they should be able to do) but first and foremost get your team playing in the main formation and make it positive.

 

We all know we have lacked goals over the last two seasons and conceded too many. Both are a concern bit i`d say scoring has been the main concern.

 

4-5-1 at home is excruciating and so negative. We don`t have the players to convert from defence to attack quick because that what that formation is about. We should be having a go at ALL teams at home.

 

I have hated watching weak defences having time to walk the ball out from defence(and look like world beaters) as our lone forward gets flak from the fans for not being able to run from one side of the park to the other to close a player down!!!

 

Really a bugbear of mine.

[The Mighty Thor]

Lack of intelligence in all areas of the organisation.

 

3 weeks until the season starts and we're still playing the committee's favoured formation. It really has to stop.

 

I read earlier square pegs into round holes. That sums it up.

 

You can give Csaba all the time in the world, he'll never develop the majority of these players beyond being what they currently are. Mediocre journeyman professionals. ie Bottom six material.

 

Since Korobochka came to this club we have regressed. We have 'played', under various 'managers', probably the worst football i can recall watching Hearts play and i'm 40.

 

I couldn;t care what formation Portugal, Holland, Russia play. They have talented players in abundance, we have dross.

 

We seem to have lost the will to play football to win. The players are being educated to follow formations which look great on paper, 20 mins into a game against ICT/St Midden etc and we're getting our arses handed to us and everyone's looking to the dug out as the latest 4-5-1 variant falls apart. Meanwhile Korobochka's in the stand frantically thumbing through tactics for beginners and then barking the latest effort down the walkie talkie to the latest faceless no-mark in control.

 

The Hearts of the 80's (not the most gifted bunch of footballers) worked hard and were bloody hard to beat at Tynie, it was always high tempo 4-4-2 and we bullied most teams into submission. We don't do that anymore. We **** about with a 1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1 formation where no-ones got a scooby what's going and everyone blames each other.

 

FFS Csaba, grow a set. Tell the committee to ram the CCCP footballing manual up their jinkers and lets get back to a basic formation and lets start looking like a football team again.

[Coco]

I just do not understand why we do not play 4-4-2???

 

It`s ok saying the players have to adapt to other formations when asked(which they should be able to do) but first and foremost get your team playing in the main formation and make it positive.

 

We all know we have lacked goals over the last two seasons and conceded too many. Both are a concern bit i`d say scoring has been the main concern.

 

4-5-1 at home is excruciating and so negative. We don`t have the players to convert from defence to attack quick because that what that formation is about. We should be having a go at ALL teams at home.

 

I have hated watching weak defences having time to walk the ball out from defence(and look like world beaters) as our lone forward gets flak from the fans for not being able to run from one side of the park to the other to close a player down!!!

 

Really a bugbear of mine.

 

4-5-1 is Romanov/Chernenkov's formations. Why wouldn't this be the main formation that we will play this season? Gives players like Knsavicius in the hole and Miko/Ivaskevicius out wide a chance to shine.

[Debut 4]

 

We seem to have lost the will to play football to win. The players are being educated to follow formations which look great on paper, 20 mins into a game against ICT/St Midden etc and we're getting our arses handed to us and everyone's looking to the dug out as the latest 4-5-1 variant falls apart. Meanwhile Korobochka's in the stand frantically thumbing through tactics for beginners and then barking the latest effort down the walkie talkie to the latest faceless no-mark in control. True, fancy formations and tactical bull, just get the players wired and playing to their max and get stuck into the dross. Watching some of the mediocre defences at other clubs getting an easy ride against us is hard to take.

 

The Hearts of the 80's (not the most gifted bunch of footballers) Eh? Very talented IMO. Hard and talented.

 

.

 

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

To my mind, the best Hearts teams play 4-3-3, albeit with two centre forwards and one winger. We played that way in 1997-98 and we were great to watch.

[Charlie-Brown]

So how would people interpret Csaba's words in the context of this discussion?

 

http://www.heartsfc.premiumtv.co.uk/page/HeartsNewsDetail/0,,10289~1345564,00.html

[The Mighty Thor]

 

Mate the likes of Berry, Whittaker etc weren't world beaters. The worked their arses off though and we weren't getting rolled over by the bottom six teams week in week out.

 

Christ how many times have you seen Latapy come to Tynie at 39 or 40 years old and our midfield 5 cannae get near him. He likes a fag and i reckon he could have got through about 20 against us and carried his own ashtray too.

[Coco]

So how would people interpret Csaba's words in the context of this discussion?

 

http://www.heartsfc.premiumtv.co.uk/page/HeartsNewsDetail/0,,10289~1345564,00.html

 

I think that is the sort of blethers that Valdas used to come out with.

[The Mighty Thor]

So how would people interpret Csaba's words in the context of this discussion?

 

http://www.heartsfc.premiumtv.co.uk/page/HeartsNewsDetail/0,,10289~1345564,00.html

 

Charlie he wants them to be students of the game? we've been forcing this 4-5-1 bollocks onto the players for more than two years.

 

Now heres the question. Are the players not learning/playing it properly or is it a really crap negative and ineffective formation.

 

Answers on a SPL league table to;

 

Vladimir Romanov

Tynecastle stadium

Edinburgh

EH11

[Balders]

I predict we will not play 4 2 3 1 again pre season.

We will play 4 4 2 or 4 4 1 1 as we played for about 10 minutes last nigh,with the second striker playing slightly deeper than the main striker.

Moley played just behind Glen ,but I would reverse the roles

 

Which in effect is the same as 4-2-3-1 with the scond striker playing off the front in the middle of the 3 and supplementing the midfield when requried.

 

It is when we play guys like Michael Stewart in this position it becomes 4-5-1 and a negative formation.

[Sparky]

While I understand peoples concerns about playing anything other than a 4-4-2 I can't really agree with them.

 

The argument that we don't have good enough players to play other formations doesn't hold up IMO. Many poorer teams than us have introduced alternative formations and used them successfully. Its not just the ManU and Chelseas that play 4-5-1.

 

The argument that we don't have the correct players for the positions is morevalid. But equally we don't have players who can function well in a 4-4-2 either. Our squad is unbalanced in a number of areas and (as someone said earlier in the thread) what formation fits the squad we currently have? 3-6-1?

 

From what I've observed on JKB, there appears to be a general consensus that we need, at the very least, a CB, AM and CF. These aren't positions suited only to 4-4-2. These are essentially the backbone to any team/formation and without them we will fail to perform no matter what formation we play.

 

Csaba has to be given time to instil his own ideas onto the team and I seriously wonder whether our fans will give him the necessary time.

[magicTs]

Csaba has to be given time to instil his own ideas onto the team and I seriously wonder whether our fans will give him the necessary time.

 

I don't think it's the fans who are the worry

[Coco]

While I understand peoples concerns about playing anything other than a 4-4-2 I can't really agree with them.

 

The argument that we don't have good enough players to play other formations doesn't hold up IMO. Many poorer teams than us have introduced alternative formations and used them successfully. Its not just the ManU and Chelseas that play 4-5-1.

 

The argument that we don't have the correct players for the positions is morevalid. But equally we don't have players who can function well in a 4-4-2 either. Our squad is unbalanced in a number of areas and (as someone said earlier in the thread) what formation fits the squad we currently have? 3-6-1?

 

From what I've observed on JKB, there appears to be a general consensus that we need, at the very least, a CB, AM and CF. These aren't positions suited only to 4-4-2. These are essentially the backbone to any team/formation and without them we will fail to perform no matter what formation we play.

 

Csaba has to be given time to instil his own ideas onto the team and I seriously wonder whether our fans will give him the necessary time.

 

Good points.

 

But your last paragraph could perhaps run:

"Csaba has to be given time to instil his own ideas onto the team and I seriously wonder whether our owner will give him the necessary time"

[The Mighty Thor]

Good points.

 

But your last paragraph could perhaps run:

"Csaba has to be given time to instil his own ideas onto the team and I seriously wonder whether our owner will give him the necessary time"

 

Or alternatively;

 

'Csaba has to be given the opportunity to instill his own ideas onto his team. I seriously wonder whether our owner or sporting director will allow him.'

[eighteen seventyfour]

We, the fans, demand 4-4-2.

 

Anything else is simply unacceptable.

 

 

 

 

No they dont, speak for yourself.

 

Players have to adapt to different formations, if the cant ship them out.

[Debut 4]

While I understand peoples concerns about playing anything other than a 4-4-2 I can't really agree with them.

 

The argument that we don't have good enough players to play other formations doesn't hold up IMO. Many poorer teams than us have introduced alternative formations and used them successfully. Its not just the ManU and Chelseas that play 4-5-1.

 

The argument that we don't have the correct players for the positions is morevalid. But equally we don't have players who can function well in a 4-4-2 either. Our squad is unbalanced in a number of areas and (as someone said earlier in the thread) what formation fits the squad we currently have? 3-6-1?

 

From what I've observed on JKB, there appears to be a general consensus that we need, at the very least, a CB, AM and CF. These aren't positions suited only to 4-4-2. These are essentially the backbone to any team/formation and without them we will fail to perform no matter what formation we play.

 

Csaba has to be given time to instil his own ideas onto the team and I seriously wonder whether our fans will give him the necessary time.

I think the general point is get players suited to 4-4-2 and get back to being positive.

 

4-5-1 has bred negativity within the squad. We go through all the bull of nurturing a team on a new formation when we should be keeping it simple.

 

We don`t play in the best league in the world against the best players ffs.

[Sparky]

Mighty Thor is spot on with his alternative. Its the opportunity to manage rather than the time he will be given by VR/AK which is the issue.

 

Funnily enough, since Burley left Vlad could be accused of not getting rid of 'managers' early enough. (Didn't he say that was one of his regrets regarding Rix). Still wouldn't put money on Csaba lasting the season tho.

 

Back on topic. I don't think the problem with the team last season lay in any way with 4-5-1 and its negative effect on the team. It was down to the incompetent coaching and lack of consistancy in said coaching.