Naismith, Forrest and McAvoy to end of the season ( updated/merged )

[Watt-Zeefuik]

6 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

Sorry, but the bit I've bolded, in what way was Neilson's appointment "illegal"? Darren Murray left the club and so Bryan Jackson, as administrator, could appoint someone if the club needed it. There was absolutely nothing wrong in him speaking to Ann Budge, who had been made preferred bidder, about that role and any potential candidate for it. Does that mean that Jackson was privy to the Budge / Levein plan? No, he didn't need to be. Equally, if Budge said Neilson was an ideal candidate and was willing to do it, would Jackson go through a recruitment process? Probably not. He had bigger issues to deal with.

 

Also, does that mean it was Levein / Neilson since Day 1 when Budge and Levein met? Probably not. However, Levein looked at a number of young coaches, among them Neilson, Cathro and Jack Ross. Two of those ended up on the belt immediately and Cathro joined later.

 

There was a suggestion above that Levein pushed Murray out the door to make room for Neilson. That would have been highly illegal because Jackson always worked for the creditors, and Budge/FoH/BidCo were only preferred bidders. A price hadn't even been accepted. To allow someone trying to buy the club to make personnel moves like that before a sale was agreed in concept or a price agreed would have violated a whole stack of legal, contractual, and ethical obligations by Jackson. And for what?

 

For Jackson to reach out directly to Budge, or through her, Levein at that point for suggestions would have been highly improper. I suppose he could have contacted Levein directly as a "friend of the club" but if he'd known about Levein advising Budge that would have been a conflict of interest.

 

Beyond that, I fail to see why Levein would have been so hot on Neilson before he worked with the youth team. Aside from being the kind of hard working cerebral player that often makes a good future coach, there was precious little to go on. His work with the youth team went a long way torwards making the case for his appointment.

 

I can believe that Neilson was on Levein's list of "conveyor belt fodder" like Ross and Cathro but I fail to see how Levein could have identified him that early. Given Neilson's dramatic success in his first season, that's frankly giving the man a bit too much credit!

 

At any rate, this all started just because I said Neilson's work with the youth team helped prepare him for taking over because he had players he knew how to play straight from the off, and I think that could work in Naismith's favor too. The rest has just been noise.

[Pasquale for King]

9 minutes ago, Led Tasso said:

I hadn't heard the first bit, but the last bit I absolutely remember.  I don't deny that Levein had picked Neilson well before Budgement Day, but to take that all the way back to October and suggest Murray somehow was forced to go to a better job at a bigger club less at risk of being liquidated is just about five bridges too far.

 

I'm saying Neilson did well with the youth and after several months of his success, Levein and Budge settled on him as the first Head Coach under the new conveyor belt system, and that Locke knew it was coming by at least March.

I only know what i posted there, not sure about Darren Murray and how he left. John Murray chose RN, couldn’t remember his first name. Knowing CL and how football works they probably did set all that up but no way Bryan Jackson would be involved. 

Edited April 10, 2023 by Pasquale for King

[Watt-Zeefuik]

7 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

Bullshit! It was one out, one in. The creditors had signed over control to Jackson and, on the assumption that Neilson earned no more than Murray, there was no impact to creditors whatsoever.

 

My guess would be that Jackson had to make the case to the creditors for the necessity to re-hire the position in order to protect the value of the club. I would also very much expect that Neilson was hired for a fair amount less than Murray had been making.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

1 minute ago, Led Tasso said:

 

There was a suggestion above that Levein pushed Murray out the door to make room for Neilson. That would have been highly illegal because Jackson always worked for the creditors, and Budge/FoH/BidCo were only preferred bidders. A price hadn't even been accepted. To allow someone trying to buy the club to make personnel moves like that before a sale was agreed in concept or a price agreed would have violated a whole stack of legal, contractual, and ethical obligations by Jackson. And for what?

 

For Jackson to reach out directly to Budge, or through her, Levein at that point for suggestions would have been highly improper. I suppose he could have contacted Levein directly as a "friend of the club" but if he'd known about Levein advising Budge that would have been a conflict of interest.

 

Beyond that, I fail to see why Levein would have been so hot on Neilson before he worked with the youth team. Aside from being the kind of hard working cerebral player that often makes a good future coach, there was precious little to go on. His work with the youth team went a long way torwards making the case for his appointment.

 

I can believe that Neilson was on Levein's list of "conveyor belt fodder" like Ross and Cathro but I fail to see how Levein could have identified him that early. Given Neilson's dramatic success in his first season, that's frankly giving the man a bit too much credit!

 

At any rate, this all started just because I said Neilson's work with the youth team helped prepare him for taking over because he had players he knew how to play straight from the off, and I think that could work in Naismith's favor too. The rest has just been noise.

Where did I say Levein pushed Murray out of the door? I never said anything like that.

 

I don't know why Darren Murray left. Equally, he might have been told that there wasn't a future for him after the club came out of administration and so he chose to leave. That is pure speculation and I don't know one way or the other.

 

However, when the vacancy came about there was nothing stopping Budge and Jackson talking about filling it and nothing illegal about that whatsoever.

[Fozzyonthefence]

3 hours ago, soonbe110 said:

Hardly what I said. Can you not read? What bit of ‘want to finish third’ is hard for you to interpret?  We clearly won’t finish third if we lose many more games.  I’m hoping, and will be supporting at all the remaining matches, that we clinch third place. I just don’t think appointing Naismith as permanent head coach would the correct way forward regardless of what happens in next 6 weeks. 

You worded it like it was a conflict of interest - you want 3rd place but don’t want SN to do well in case he gets the job permanently. 
 

How can you possibly tell how any rookie manager is going to perform?  Sounds like you don’t want SN to succeed.  Give him a chance ffs.  All the best managers in the world have to start with a first job and no experience.  Will be a tough 7 games for SN given the fixtures and what looks like a divided and mess of a squad.  He has a lot to sort out. 

Edited April 10, 2023 by Fozzyonthefence

[jamborich]

Can we no forget all this Levein, Neilson shit it’s over they tried their best but we have to move on I’m looking forward to something different and hopefully success 

[Luckies1874]

Well this thread has taken an interesting turn! There was me worrying about the team for Saturday but it's a fun read nonetheless. 

[OTT]

10 minutes ago, gorgierulesapply88 said:

Jack Ross and Neilson learned from Levein. They've both not been successful.

 

Levein and Neilson will be remembered for their loyalty to the club, but in the end they where just both really shit at their job.

 

Are you having a laugh?  

 

Jack Ross has managed Sunderland, Hibs, St Mirren & Dundee Utd - All either top flight clubs, or big clubs in their own right. 

Neilson has managed Hearts, MK Dons, Dundee Utd and Hearts again and done fairly well in all roles. 3 promotions, multiple cup finals and semi finals and saw us to Europe for the first time in ****ing ages (TWICE). 

 

Objectively both have had very good careers and firmly established themselves as managers and well regarded coaches. Contrasted with say, Kenny Miller, Ian Murray or Lee McCulloch. 

 

If Levein played a role in their development as managers/ coaches then he's done a really good job as the above points highlight. Just because neither are Alex Ferguson 2.0 doesn't make them failures. 

[south morocco]

1 minute ago, jamborich said:

Can we no forget all this Levein, Neilson shit it’s over they tried their best but we have to move on I’m looking forward to something different and hopefully success 

Exactly, move on

[Pasquale for King]

16 minutes ago, Mr Elwood P said:

Behave.

Tell me what young players has he ever brought into a team? 
https://www.teamtalk.com/newcastle-united/garang-kuol-transfer-barcelona-beaten-plan-record-setting-striker-laid-out

https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/unbelievable-garang-kuol-caught-eye-25015533.amp

Edited April 10, 2023 by Pasquale for King
Link

[Watt-Zeefuik]

1 minute ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

Where did I say Levein pushed Murray out of the door? I never said anything like that.

 

I don't know why Darren Murray left. Equally, he might have been told that there wasn't a future for him after the club came out of administration and so he chose to leave. That is pure speculation and I don't know one way or the other.

 

However, when the vacancy came about there was nothing stopping Budge and Jackson talking about filling it and nothing illegal about that whatsoever.

You did not, 1874robbo did. I replied to him, you replied to me, and here we are.

 

What is illegal about is that the sale had not been agreed and therefore Jackson as representative of the creditors and BidCo were technically oppositional parties in the price negotiation. At the very least until the CVA was agreed, Jackson would have had to be extremely careful about all communications with FoH, BidCo, or related parties or else risk being sued by the creditors.

[Mr Elwood P]

2 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

Tell me what young players has he ever brought into a team? 
 

https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/unbelievable-garang-kuol-caught-eye-25015533.amp

And that wee lad is the Australian Freddy Adu. Doesn't start for Australia either ...

[Pasquale for King]

5 minutes ago, Luckies1874 said:

Well this thread has taken an interesting turn! There was me worrying about the team for Saturday but it's a fun read nonetheless. 

Can’t wait to see who he plays, system and tactics.
Any derby is special but this one has an extra edge with defeat their top 6 place up for grabs we might get another Hibs manager sacked 🤞.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

5 minutes ago, Led Tasso said:

You did not, 1874robbo did. I replied to him, you replied to me, and here we are.

 

What is illegal about is that the sale had not been agreed and therefore Jackson as representative of the creditors and BidCo were technically oppositional parties in the price negotiation. At the very least until the CVA was agreed, Jackson would have had to be extremely careful about all communications with FoH, BidCo, or related parties or else risk being sued by the creditors.

By that logic, even signing a player could be construed as illegal, which it wasn't. The "one in, one out" rule applied by all administrative conventions.

 

The key point of difference is that you think Neilson was stumbled across as a reaction to his performance as youth coach whereas others, including me, think that is extremely naive.

[tntjambo]

The relief that poodle has finally gon is pleasing a parking cone in his replacement I'd have accepted

[Pasquale for King]

3 minutes ago, Mr Elwood P said:

And that wee lad is the Australian Freddy Adu. Doesn't start for Australia either ...

So you think playing a few youngsters in a friendly is bringing them into the team? Really?
How anyone can try and claim RN has any interest or track record of playing youngsters when he has a choice is flying in the face of all the evidence. 

[Luckies1874]

3 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

Can’t wait to see who he plays, system and tactics.
Any derby is special but this one has an extra edge with defeat their top 6 place up for grabs we might get another Hibs manager sacked 🤞.

 

 

Feel the same. Can't wait for 11.30 on Saturday morning to see what Naismith does. Huge match which as you say has big implications for both clubs. If we win not only do we put ourselves right back in the mix for 3rd (regardless of what Aberdeen do as they have Rangers the following weekend) but in all likelihood leave HIbs in turmoil. I think they will definitely sack Johnson if they lose as the fans simply won't accept no action after seeing what us and Aberdeen have done and 3 derby defeats in 2023. 

[Pasquale for King]

1 minute ago, Luckies1874 said:

 

 

Feel the same. Can't wait for 11.30 on Saturday morning to see what Naismith does. Huge match which as you say has big implications for both clubs. If we win not only do we put ourselves right back in the mix for 3rd (regardless of what Aberdeen do as they have Rangers the following weekend) but in all likelihood leave HIbs in turmoil. I think they will definitely sack Johnson if they lose as the fans simply won't accept no action after seeing what us and Aberdeen have done and 3 derby defeats in 2023. 

Exactly.

Probably would prefer them to keep him and have a home derby with them as opposed to a better team tbh, greedy or what 😆?

[Luckies1874]

1 minute ago, Pasquale for King said:

Exactly.

Probably would prefer them to keep him and have a home derby with them as opposed to a better team tbh, greedy or what 😆?

 

If we win on Saturday I doubt there will be a home derby mate! 

[Pasquale for King]

1 minute ago, Luckies1874 said:

 

If we win on Saturday I doubt there will be a home derby mate! 

Oh well, cant be helped 😜. 

[Mr Elwood P]

13 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

So you think playing a few youngsters in a friendly is bringing them into the team? Really?
How anyone can try and claim RN has any interest or track record of playing youngsters when he has a choice is flying in the face of all the evidence. 

Not. Good. Enough.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

19 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

By that logic, even signing a player could be construed as illegal, which it wasn't. The "one in, one out" rule applied by all administrative conventions.

 

The key point of difference is that you think Neilson was stumbled across as a reaction to his performance as youth coach whereas others, including me, think that is extremely naive.

Different. Locke had limited ability to recruit players but he would have been explicitly barred from talking to BidCo before the CVA, or at least it would have had to be disclosed. And the league had strict rules of course about one in one out.

[Pasquale for King]

7 minutes ago, Mr Elwood P said:

Not. Good. Enough.

You cant know if players are good enough until they play, Pollock has looked good on the rare occasion he has been sent on. 
But yes the academy under CL and Roger Arnott wasted millions and produced extremely little, although the passage into the 1st team wasn’t really a smooth one. 
Whoever the next manager is has to try and rectify that. 

[manaliveits105]

Back on topic 

good luck to Stevie and the coaching team - let’s smash them on Saturday 

FTH 

[south morocco]

I’m delighted. Let’s get into these hibs xxxxxx take it from there. Great opportunity for Naismith 

[No Idle Talk]

I think making Steven Naismith the interim manager is the way we had to go but in a way it actually puts us in a rather awkward position. There are two ways this can now go. 

 

1. We don't finish third. That's a bit of a disaster for us. It not only deprives us of £5million, it hands that £5million to Aberdeen in all likelihood.

 

2. We do finish third and get European football and the money that goes along with it.

 

The second scenario is obviously great for us money wise. But it leaves the board with a hell of a decision to make after that. There would obviously be a temptation for the board to give Naismith the job on a permanent basis if he turns this around and secures third place. But in all honesty seven games is a very small sample size on which to judge someone's managerial credentials. Especially someone who only has those seven games on his managerial CV. I would be very apprehensive about giving the job to Naismith on the back of seven games in charge. I've seen it so many times at other clubs where an interim manager comes in and does really well then things start going south once the interim manager is appointed on a full time basis.

 

It is a massive decision for the board to make if we do end up getting third place in my opinion.

[Section Q]

Naisy will have players fired up for the derby. No question at all. Getting result on Saturday will be huge for the club.

If all goes well and we finish third, it would be nice to see some young talent getting a chance.........

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

15 minutes ago, No Idle Talk said:

I think making Steven Naismith the interim manager is the way we had to go but in a way it actually puts us in a rather awkward position. There are two ways this can now go. 

 

1. We don't finish third. That's a bit of a disaster for us. It not only deprives us of £5million, it hands that £5million to Aberdeen in all likelihood.

 

2. We do finish third and get European football and the money that goes along with it.

 

The second scenario is obviously great for us money wise. But it leaves the board with a hell of a decision to make after that. There would obviously be a temptation for the board to give Naismith the job on a permanent basis if he turns this around and secures third place. But in all honesty seven games is a very small sample size on which to judge someone's managerial credentials. Especially someone who only has those seven games on his managerial CV. I would be very apprehensive about giving the job to Naismith on the back of seven games in charge. I've seen it so many times at other clubs where an interim manager comes in and does really well then things start going south once the interim manager is appointed on a full time basis.

 

It is a massive decision for the board to make if we do end up getting third place in my opinion.

The only way I can see Naismith getting the job permanently is not only finishing 3rd but also pulling off results against the gruesomes.

[J.T.F.Robertson]

42 minutes ago, No Idle Talk said:

I think making Steven Naismith the interim manager is the way we had to go but in a way it actually puts us in a rather awkward position. There are two ways this can now go. 

 

1. We don't finish third. That's a bit of a disaster for us. It not only deprives us of £5million, it hands that £5million to Aberdeen in all likelihood.

 

2. We do finish third and get European football and the money that goes along with it.

 

The second scenario is obviously great for us money wise. But it leaves the board with a hell of a decision to make after that. There would obviously be a temptation for the board to give Naismith the job on a permanent basis if he turns this around and secures third place. But in all honesty seven games is a very small sample size on which to judge someone's managerial credentials. Especially someone who only has those seven games on his managerial CV. I would be very apprehensive about giving the job to Naismith on the back of seven games in charge. I've seen it so many times at other clubs where an interim manager comes in and does really well then things start going south once the interim manager is appointed on a full time basis.

 

It is a massive decision for the board to make if we do end up getting third place in my opinion.

 

Why not leave "worrying" about that scenario 'til if or when it happens? Least of my concerns.

 

 

[fabienleclerq]

3 hours ago, TrueJambo said:

Yeah I understand that but by the look of performances and league standing the development isn't great is it? Struggling in a league 5 division below to leading the first team pushing for 3rd place big difference and as you stated the b team is for developing players not managers I'm obviously wishing the best but no matter what the performances are like from now till the season we really need a more experienced manager

 

I don't think you do understand it if you are looking at thr league standings and deciding he's not doing a good job.

 

Let's wait and see how he gets on, he's got plenty football experience. 

 

[Skacelsid]

Good luck Steven, what a start, apart from being a Derby,  Saturday is now huge, with a win we can regain third and put a marker down that we are not going away. Time for some unity from all and getting our pride back.

[rudi must stay]

I think the appointment is a very good one. Maybe we've looked at Rangers looked at what a young enthusiastic manager can do. Also as a club we can afford ups and down with our finances so let's get behind Naismith get behind his signings and support the team

[XB52]

6 hours ago, OTT said:

 

 

I'm genuinely not even sure why this is a bone of contention tbh  

Just read the last couple of pages and exactly what I was thinking?? Who cares

[colinmaroon]

8 hours ago, TrueJambo said:

Yeah I understand that but by the look of performances and league standing the development isn't great is it? Struggling in a league 5 division below to leading the first team pushing for 3rd place big difference and as you stated the b team is for developing players not managers I'm obviously wishing the best but no matter what the performances are like from now till the season we really need a more experienced manager

 

4 hours ago, fabienleclerq said:

 

I don't think you do understand it if you are looking at thr league standings and deciding he's not doing a good job.

 

Let's wait and see how he gets on, he's got plenty football experience. 

 

 

Naismith has had to pull in younger players as some of his team were away on international duty.etc.; no suspension of games for such. 

 

 

[Pete Elliott]

35 minutes ago, rudi must stay said:

Maybe we've looked at Rangers looked at what a young enthusiastic manager can do. 

[GinRummy]

I'm behind him but was hoping for a safer appointment. Not that I think he'll do a bad job but because I have no idea how he'll do.

[1874robbo]

52 minutes ago, rudi must stay said:

I think the appointment is a very good one. Maybe we've looked at Rangers looked at what a young enthusiastic manager can do. Also as a club we can afford ups and down with our finances so let's get behind Naismith get behind his signings and support the team

What signings? 

[1874robbo]

7 hours ago, Led Tasso said:

You did not, 1874robbo did. I replied to him, you replied to me, and here we are.

 

What is illegal about is that the sale had not been agreed and therefore Jackson as representative of the creditors and BidCo were technically oppositional parties in the price negotiation. At the very least until the CVA was agreed, Jackson would have had to be extremely careful about all communications with FoH, BidCo, or related parties or else risk being sued by the creditors.

Darren Murray was pushed by Levein as he knew RN was coming in.

[Debut 4]

I think we’re in a better position to recover quickly, than say, when Stendel came in.  A million miles a different situation.  
 

It’s simply about reaction now and how quickly the new staff can make the training ground a happier place for the last few weeks. 

[Bad Religion]

1 minute ago, Debut 4 said:

I think we’re in a better position to recover quickly, than say, when Stendel came in.  A million miles a different situation.  
 

It’s simply about reaction now and how quickly the new staff can make the training ground a happier place for the last few weeks. 

Agreed, still believe we have a very good squad. Going to be interesting to see what the new man agent team get out of them. A lot more than what Neilson was I would expect.  

[The Treasurer]

43 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

I'm behind him but was hoping for a safer appointment. Not that I think he'll do a bad job but because I have no idea how he'll do.

I think, in the circumstances, this is the "safest" appointment the club could make 

[kingantti1874]

Same. I’d go with something like

 

clark

 

atkinson

sibbick

rowles

cochrane 

 

Halliday

Devlin 

 

forrest

mackay as a 10

humphries just off shanks

 

shanks 9

 

 

[Herbert.]

2 minutes ago, kingantti1874 said:

Same. I’d go with something like

 

clark

 

atkinson

sibbick

rowles

cochrane 

 

Halliday

Devlin 

 

forrest

mackay as a 10

humphries just off shanks

 

shanks 9

 

 

 

Think Mckay needs a few games to come off the bench and find a bit confidence. Robbie has made a few players regress but Barrie seems to have had the biggest drop in form.

[kingantti1874]

9 minutes ago, Herbert. said:

 

Think Mckay needs a few games to come off the bench and find a bit confidence. Robbie has made a few players regress but Barrie seems to have had the biggest drop in form.

Yeah I agree.  But I think naisy will understand him and get a reaction.  Deploy him in the 10 where I’ve always wanted to see him.  Give him a bit of freedom and get a little pace playing directly in wider areas.  
 

same with atkinson. I know he’s not the best defensively, but he’s good going forward.  Let’s get them facing the other way 

Edited April 11, 2023 by kingantti1874

[soonbe110]

8 hours ago, Fozzyonthefence said:

You worded it like it was a conflict of interest - you want 3rd place but don’t want SN to do well in case he gets the job permanently. 
 

How can you possibly tell how any rookie manager is going to perform?  Sounds like you don’t want SN to succeed.  Give him a chance ffs.  All the best managers in the world have to start with a first job and no experience.  Will be a tough 7 games for SN given the fixtures and what looks like a divided and mess of a squad.  He has a lot to sort out. 

It’s a dichotomy alright.  I didn’t say I didn’t want him to do well either.  I just know that if he does well over 6/7 games there will be a huge clamour on here to give him the job on a permanent basis. That’s what I’m worried about. Desperately want to finish third but don’t think we need another ‘project’ manager in charge next season. IMO  we need someone with a career to build, who has had some initial success but most importantly has had 2/3/4 years direct responsibility on the touchline at a decent level, not the Lowland League. 

[Bazzas right boot]

It was the obvious appointment until the end of the season,  the only one really  and he has had no signings. 

 

No reason why we wouldn't get behind him, and tbh I don't think Rangers were even a consideration in the decision. 

 

 

Strange OP.

[soonbe110]

7 hours ago, No Idle Talk said:

I think making Steven Naismith the interim manager is the way we had to go but in a way it actually puts us in a rather awkward position. There are two ways this can now go. 

 

1. We don't finish third. That's a bit of a disaster for us. It not only deprives us of £5million, it hands that £5million to Aberdeen in all likelihood.

 

2. We do finish third and get European football and the money that goes along with it.

 

The second scenario is obviously great for us money wise. But it leaves the board with a hell of a decision to make after that. There would obviously be a temptation for the board to give Naismith the job on a permanent basis if he turns this around and secures third place. But in all honesty seven games is a very small sample size on which to judge someone's managerial credentials. Especially someone who only has those seven games on his managerial CV. I would be very apprehensive about giving the job to Naismith on the back of seven games in charge. I've seen it so many times at other clubs where an interim manager comes in and does really well then things start going south once the interim manager is appointed on a full time basis.

 

It is a massive decision for the board to make if we do end up getting third place in my opinion.

Much too sensible a post for this forum👍

[Americana]

1 hour ago, rudi must stay said:

I think the appointment is a very good one. Maybe we've looked at Rangers looked at what a young enthusiastic manager can do. Also as a club we can afford ups and down with our finances so let's get behind Naismith get behind his signings and support the team

 

You post some absolute nonsense. Hes interim until the end of the season their is no "his signings"

[Deevers]

I’ve a feeling that Naismith is going to revel in this role. He’s charismatic, focused, and has huge knowledge of the game on both sides of the border. If anyone can get the best out of this squad, then I’m pretty sure he can. No better time to start than on Saturday against the vermin. 

[Mister Dee]

I’m hoping for more positive football -players looking to go forward at pace. 
If they enjoy playing football again, that’s half the battle.