Closing the gap

[Boris5115]

2 minutes ago, skinnybob72 said:

First and foremost we need to win at places like Livingston far more often. We don’t need to beat Rangers to close the gap - beating the non OF sides away from home more often will cut the gap by quite some margin. 
 

Once we do that we can start to think of beating them (and Celtic) more often. 

It's as simple as that. Given our benefactors donations and FOH Subs and crowds etc this should be very achievable. 

[Taffin]

Just now, JamboGraham said:

 

Games against the team you are trying to catch don't matter?

 

Not until you've taken care of the rest first, no. We could beat Rangers every game this season and we'd still be behind them, it's the points dropped to dross that are easiest to rectify and it's exactly what the Old Firm do.

[JamboGraham]

Just now, Taffin said:

 

Not until you've taken care of the rest first, no. We could beat Rangers every game this season and we'd still be behind them, it's the points dropped to dross that are easiest to rectify and it's exactly what the Old Firm do.

 

In that case the objective isn't closing the gap above it's increasing the gap below.

[Captain Lithuania]

1 minute ago, JamboGraham said:

 

In that case the objective isn't closing the gap above it's increasing the gap below.

It’s the same thing, what ever way you want to put it. If we beat Rangers even twice this season it wouldn’t come close to converting draws and daft defeats to the teams below us in terms of points gained. 

[Drylaw Hearts]

I can’t see it tbh.

 

We drop too many points against teams with a fraction of our budget. Given the absolute mess of Aberdeen and Hibs, we’ve still only won 2 more league games than both of them.

[Bazzas right boot]

13 minutes ago, Captain Lithuania said:

Point still stands. 3-0 must have been last season then. Still, games against Rangers don’t actually matter when it comes to closing the gap on them. It’s the games against everyone else. 

 

Livi never beat us last season. 

 

The point is wrong also imo, currently we have a 12 point swing in the OF's favour against us.

 

Unless we win every single other game which I think is unrealistic then games v the OF definitely matter when looking up.

Every game matters,  but to catch Rangers beating them will definitely help.

 

 

 

[Bazzas right boot]

8 minutes ago, Captain Lithuania said:

It’s the same thing, what ever way you want to put it. If we beat Rangers even twice this season it wouldn’t come close to converting draws and daft defeats to the teams below us in terms of points gained. 

 

 

If we'd beaten Rangers twice this season instead of being beat twice we'd be 4 points behind them.

 

Throw in a win or draw v celtic then it's 1 or 3 points behind them with us playing them on Wed.

 

3 wins v the OF and on Wed we'd be playing to leap frog Rangers.

 

It definitely matters unless we win every other game and that's a  unreasonable ask.

 

 

 

Edited January 29, 2023 by Bazzas right boot

[Taffin]

13 minutes ago, JamboGraham said:

 

In that case the objective isn't closing the gap above it's increasing the gap below.

 

They're the same thing. Doing one guarantees both happen though, taking points off Rangers doesn't.

[hearts00]

Absolutely no evidence to suggest we can close the gap.  We are clearly the third best team in the league but that is not saying vey much of late. 
 

we are of course doing well but we are no where near the levels of performance that would allow us to close the gap. Miles off it in fact. 
 

The target should be to have more points than we had last season and then more points again next season.
 

We need 23pts to achieve more than last season that and we should be targetting at least 65 point for me, which is 26 out of the remaining 45pts on offer. 

[Drylaw Hearts]

12 minutes ago, Bazzas right boot said:

 

 

If we'd beaten Rangers twice this season instead of being beat twice we'd be 4 points behind them.

 

Throw in a win or draw v celtic then it's 1 or 3 points behind them with us playing them on Wed.

 

3 wins v the OF and on Wed we'd be playing to leap frog Rangers.

 

It definitely matters unless we win every other game and that's a  unreasonable ask.

 

 

 

We’ve dropped 7 points to a club who has about 1000 fans and one of the smallest budgets in the league. Our away form against non OF teams is an area where we need to work on and start turning draws into wins.

[The White Cockade]

We won’t get close to the Old Firm until we start playing our best in majority of games not just occasionally 

The Hibs and Aberdeen results were great but the performances were pretty average 

It’s ok if you still come away with three points but we drop far too many points in games we should win comfortably 

and obviously we are very poor against the Uglies and lack conviction against them even when they are there for the taking 

[Rods]

2 season more finishing 3rd and a couple of big sales and I reckon we will then have the money to furnish our squad enough to compete. 
 

 

[Bazzas right boot]

20 minutes ago, Drylaw Hearts said:

We’ve dropped 7 points to a club who has about 1000 fans and one of the smallest budgets in the league. Our away form against non OF teams is an area where we need to work on and start turning draws into wins.

 

We simply will never win every away game tho, it's unrealistic.

 

Also- Using fans as a measure of a club  works both ways- if projected on to the OF would it mean we should never close the gap, ever. 

 

Fans don't play the game.

 

 

Edited January 29, 2023 by Bazzas right boot

[Drylaw Hearts]

1 minute ago, Bazzas right boot said:

 

We simply will never win every away game tho, it's unrealistic.

 

We should be winning more than we do.

[Boris5115]

21 minutes ago, Drylaw Hearts said:

We’ve dropped 7 points to a club who has about 1000 fans and one of the smallest budgets in the league. Our away form against non OF teams is an area where we need to work on and start turning draws into wins.

Absolutely we should be turning Livi over home and away. 

[Bazzas right boot]

1 minute ago, Drylaw Hearts said:

We should be winning more than we do.

 

with that logic so should the OF. They should never drop points, ever and win every cup.

It's not how football and a league system or a cup competition  works tho.

 

No idea where you get the " should" part from, how have you came to this conclusion?

 

 

[Carter]

2 hours ago, OTT said:

Nope. Games like today are the difference IMO. Where we rack up draws and silly losses the OF typically grind out the result. We've shown we can still do that, but not as consistently. 

 

But, lets get into Europe, collect another £5m and get that reinvested back into the club then do it again. 

 

We're improving under Robbie and there is plenty to be positive about. 

Today is that age old problem, give squad players a chance and they fail to step up and deliver. There remains a reliance on a core of players. Nobody in the middle of the park offers anything close to what Snodgrass gives us.

 

Shorter term objective remains to be best of the rest again and hopefully another European campaign with all that brings. A cup would be nice and feeling a bit overdue again. 

 

Games like today are the difference as you say.

[Carter]

28 minutes ago, Drylaw Hearts said:

We’ve dropped 7 points to a club who has about 1000 fans and one of the smallest budgets in the league. Our away form against non OF teams is an area where we need to work on and start turning draws into wins.

We look some way ahead of the rest but our performances against Livvy have been awful this season. Hard to get away from that. 2 out of 9 is nowhere near acceptable.

[Jamhammer]

I think for anyone to get closer we need 2 or 3 teams capable of taking points off em

[Drylaw Hearts]

Just now, Bazzas right boot said:

 

with that logic so should the OF. They should never drop points, ever and win every cup.

It's not how football and a league system or a cup competition  works tho.

 

No idea where you get the " should" part from, how have you came to this conclusion?

 

 

The OF don’t drop many points to the other teams though, home or away. Celtic have dropped 3 points from 69 and Rangers have dropped 9 from 69.

 

We’ve dropped 18 from a possible 57. You don’t think this should be improved on?

 

 

[Bazzas right boot]

3 minutes ago, Drylaw Hearts said:

The OF don’t drop many points to the other teams though, home or away. Celtic have dropped 3 points from 69 and Rangers have dropped 9 from 69.

 

We’ve dropped 18 from a possible 57. You don’t think this should be improved on?

 

 

 

Ofc I do.

 

 

[AC Mallin_51]

End of the day chances like Oda’s and Kuol’s are chances the old firm will always take. Up until today I think we’ve been absolutely ruthless recently. Being ruthless every game is the step to closing the gap 

[Drylaw Hearts]

Just now, Bazzas right boot said:

 

Ofc I do.

 

 

So you do have an idea of the where the “should” part comes from.

 

Not as stupid as you are making out.

[Jambo Buckets]

We just need to keep finishing 3rd and getting group stage football. A couple more years of that and we'll likely be a pot 2 team in the Conference League and will be seeded to make it out the groups. Getting out the group would earn us  millions of pounds of prize money, TV money, gate money and attract players to a competitive European team. If we do that maybe then we can think about splitting the top 2. 

 

But for now we just need to keep improving and building our own club over the next 5 years without comparing ourselves to the top 2. 

Edited January 29, 2023 by Jambo Buckets

[Baxfee]

27 minutes ago, Jambo Buckets said:

We just need to keep finishing 3rd and getting group stage football. A couple more years of that and we'll likely be a pot 2 team in the Conference League and will be seeded to make it out the groups. Getting out the group would earn us  millions of pounds of prize money, TV money, gate money and attract players to a competitive European team. If we do that maybe then we can think about splitting the top 2. 

 

But for now we just need to keep improving and building our own club over the next 5 years without comparing ourselves to the top 2. 

100%. We need significant money coming in and that’s from European competitions. If we get this on a regular basis we can become serious challengers 

[Fake Persona]

2 hours ago, Taffin said:

 

Not until you've taken care of the rest first, no. We could beat Rangers every game this season and we'd still be behind them, it's the points dropped to dross that are easiest to rectify and it's exactly what the Old Firm do.

Perhaps we would, perhaps we wouldn't. What is certain right now is that we have been beaten twice so far, a 12 point swing. If we'd beat them twice so far, we'd be 4 points off them going into Wednesday instead of 16, even despite drawing at Livingston. So we need to do both, at least not lose to them, and win more away matches vs the sides below us.

 

[Forrest]

Beating teams below us is key, but it's probably worth bearing in mind that Livi have an enviable record of taking points off the Sectarian Firm in recent years. 

[Ricardo Quaresma]

We do need strength in depth in midfield

 

Closing the gap to those above is a long term goal; everyone knows this

 

We could and should have beat livvy, but we didn't; we should have a great squad for Wednesday; we may have 1 or 2 more players, rangers may have 1 or 2 in, 1 or 2 out

 

The plan was to ensure a clean sheet and the assumption was we would take our chances

 

Our objective is 3rd this season and in the very short term, remain unbeaten in that game against livvy and the rangers game

 

Next season is light years away; it's not relevant at all

 

Hope livvy finish top 6 and come back to Tynecastle, where we will pump them with a full strength team; we are working them out; we've not taken our chances against them, but we will

 

Like I wrote on another thread, GS European football is vital; next year, we probably need OF to be in EL after Christmas and beyond, or they will arse up the coefficient

 

The mhanks have been very culpable here, because both the OF are currently competitive at EL level and they scored badly this year, trying to compete in the CL

 

If the OF both bomb out again it's done; I think we may have guaranteed ECL GS next season and the next after, so I've heard, but like I wrote on another thread, if we have that option closed, then we either have to qualify for ECL via 2 qualifying rounds, or sell a player or 2 for big money to keep the wage budget up, which will be increasing, to a point

[Jambo 4 Ever]

On 29/01/2023 at 18:27, The White Cockade said:

We won’t get close to the Old Firm until we start playing our best in majority of games not just occasionally 

The Hibs and Aberdeen results were great but the performances were pretty average 

It’s ok if you still come away with three points but we drop far too many points in games we should win comfortably 

and obviously we are very poor against the Uglies and lack conviction against them even when they are there for the taking 

Pretty much this 

[Uncle Buck]

We should start by closing down the man on the ball before closing the points gap. Baby steps and all.

[postage-stamp]

Close the thread 

[Thumperbeni]

We will never close the gap down whilst we have a manager such as Robbie in charge. End of story. 

[Scott Monument]

The gap is sadly never going to close last night was a reality check 

the team in third whoever it is will be closer to the team at the foot of the table 

[Ricardo Quaresma]

^^^^ 

[Scott980612]

3 hours ago, Scott Monument said:

The gap is sadly never going to close last night was a reality check 

the team in third whoever it is will be closer to the team at the foot of the table 

This unfortunately 

  
A sad reflection of the Scottish game 

[Pans Jambo]

On 29/01/2023 at 18:27, The White Cockade said:

We won’t get close to the Old Firm until we start playing our best in majority of games not just occasionally 

The Hibs and Aberdeen results were great but the performances were pretty average 

It’s ok if you still come away with three points but we drop far too many points in games we should win comfortably 

and obviously we are very poor against the Uglies and lack conviction against them even when they are there for the taking 

Exactly this ^

[jamboozy]

3 hours ago, Scott Monument said:

The gap is sadly never going to close last night was a reality check 

the team in third whoever it is will be closer to the team at the foot of the table 

This is the truth of the matter.  Closing the gap, 🤣 

[hearts @ heart]

No. Too many of our players are either frightened of playing Rangers and shipping points and goals to them. Performance and attitude is different in these games compared to Cetic visit at Tynecastle. 

I am a season ticket holder and foundation member and find the Performance and result.

Unacceptable.

Never thought i would be glad we had VAR. 

Dont know what the score line would of been.

Very frustrating evening. 

 

 

 

 

[JFK-1]

I think people need to stop fixating on closing the gap to the OF, it's impossible. It's like their fans deciding they should be competitive with the giants of Europe, which I don't think they do, because they know it's impossible. For obvious financial reasons.

 

And the fact is statistically the OF are now financially further ahead of the rest of Scottish football than the Euro giants are ahead of them, that's the stark reality.

 

There are no players in the price range nor managers nor strategies or tactics that can change this, only sufficient money can change it and that's not on the horizon.

 

The fixation should be on widening the gap between all currently below, that's realistic, competing with the OF isn't.

[Dazo]

1 minute ago, JFK-1 said:

I think people need to stop fixating on closing the gap to the OF, it's impossible. It's like their fans deciding they should be competitive with the giants of Europe, which I don't think they do, because they know it's impossible. For obvious financial reasons.

 

And the fact is statistically the OF are now financially further ahead of the rest of Scottish football than the Euro giants are ahead of them, that's the stark reality.

 

There are no players in the price range nor managers nor strategies or tactics that can change this, only sufficient money can change it and that's not on the horizon.

 

The fixation should be on widening the gap between all currently below, that's realistic, competing with the OF isn't.

Correct. Many have decided challenging the OF is the next step when in reality and is several steps and years away. If you are going to have unrealistic demands and expectations then I’d prefer for a lot of disappointment in life. 

[kingantti1874]

 

 

Not when we set up and play like that

[alicante jambo]

5 minutes ago, JFK-1 said:

I think people need to stop fixating on closing the gap to the OF, it's impossible. It's like their fans deciding they should be competitive with the giants of Europe, which I don't think they do, because they know it's impossible. For obvious financial reasons.

 

And the fact is statistically the OF are now financially further ahead of the rest of Scottish football than the Euro giants are ahead of them, that's the stark reality.

 

There are no players in the price range nor managers nor strategies or tactics that can change this, only sufficient money can change it and that's not on the horizon.

 

The fixation should be on widening the gap between all currently below, that's realistic, competing with the OF isn't.

You are bang on. Lets try distance ourselves from the others first. We are miles away from the old firm. 

[Haken]

7 minutes ago, JFK-1 said:

I think people need to stop fixating on closing the gap to the OF, it's impossible. It's like their fans deciding they should be competitive with the giants of Europe, which I don't think they do, because they know it's impossible. For obvious financial reasons.

 

And the fact is statistically the OF are now financially further ahead of the rest of Scottish football than the Euro giants are ahead of them, that's the stark reality.

 

There are no players in the price range nor managers nor strategies or tactics that can change this, only sufficient money can change it and that's not on the horizon.

 

The fixation should be on widening the gap between all currently below, that's realistic, competing with the OF isn't.

That's pretty much how I see it.    

[Better call Saul]

Our team has the same losing mentality when playing the old firm as Hibs do playing us .

 

 

 

 

 

[hearts @ heart]

14 minutes ago, JFK-1 said:

I think people need to stop fixating on closing the gap to the OF, it's impossible. It's like their fans deciding they should be competitive with the giants of Europe, which I don't think they do, because they know it's impossible. For obvious financial reasons.

 

And the fact is statistically the OF are now financially further ahead of the rest of Scottish football than the Euro giants are ahead of them, that's the stark reality.

 

There are no players in the price range nor managers nor strategies or tactics that can change this, only sufficient money can change it and that's not on the horizon.

 

The fixation should be on widening the gap between all currently below, that's realistic, competing with the OF isn't.

You make a fair point.

I agree to a certain degree.

However we should be making them work for the three points. Followed Hearts since the mid sixties.

Yes the gap has got bigger.

But we are canon fodder for Rangers since the demotion. 

It would be great if we could and I think should be giving them a game at Tynie as a start.

Like the 3-4 against Celtic with a makeshift team.

Last night I felt we just rolled over. For what ever reason it was not good enough. 

[LochcarronJambo]

36 minutes ago, JFK-1 said:

I think people need to stop fixating on closing the gap to the OF, it's impossible. It's like their fans deciding they should be competitive with the giants of Europe, which I don't think they do, because they know it's impossible. For obvious financial reasons.

 

And the fact is statistically the OF are now financially further ahead of the rest of Scottish football than the Euro giants are ahead of them, that's the stark reality.

 

There are no players in the price range nor managers nor strategies or tactics that can change this, only sufficient money can change it and that's not on the horizon.

 

The fixation should be on widening the gap between all currently below, that's realistic, competing with the OF isn't.

Sadly…thats how it is & will always be

[JFK-1]

20 minutes ago, hearts @ heart said:

You make a fair point.

I agree to a certain degree.

However we should be making them work for the three points. Followed Hearts since the mid sixties.

Yes the gap has got bigger.

But we are canon fodder for Rangers since the demotion. 

It would be great if we could and I think should be giving them a game at Tynie as a start.

Like the 3-4 against Celtic with a makeshift team.

Last night I felt we just rolled over. For what ever reason it was not good enough. 

 

Occasionally their performance may dip while others will always you would think raise their game if it's in them. But in this day and age that's a rarity. In large part because the gap is wider than it has ever been, gap doesn't describe it, it's more grand canyon like.

 

It's said other teams give them a harder time, the thing is the bulk of these teams are parking the bus and hanging on for grim death and sometimes it does at least make them fight for it. 

 

But is that how Hearts supporters want to see the team play? The criticism would then just be they should "have a go", and that's not a strategy.

 

Rangers are much stronger than they were earlier in the season, this isn't the Rangers team the sheep took a couple of goals off. I think there's an argument that Hearts didn't perhaps play badly, they just couldn't live with this team on the day, and that will most certainly make you look bad. Rangers looked really bad too losing in Europe.

 

Celtic aside anybody who doesn't park the bus against them is likely to be hammered and most of them will still lose. They're a solid Europa league side as they proved in consecutive seasons even reaching a final.

 

I agree you should expect some sort of result from the OF sometimes, but it's always going to be rare because they're currently so strong. And we have now seen what conference football is like far less the more rarefied environment of the EL. That's the type of challenge giving the OF a game now involves.

 

 

 

Edited February 2, 2023 by JFK-1

[loveofthegame]

26 minutes ago, Better call Saul said:

Our team has the same losing mentality when playing the old firm as Hibs do playing us .

 

 

 

 

 

 

Fair point.

 

What frustrates me is that worse teams than us compete with the OF (in particular Rangers) far far better than we do. That can't be based on players ability given we tend to have the better players than the rest, so is it a mentality thing or set-up by the manager or do Rangers raise their game against us. My view would be that it is a combination of all three...

 

I mean, an Aberdeen side that would go on to lose 5-0 to Hearts, 1-0 to Darvel and 6-0 to Hibs ran Rangers incredibly close twice in the last month or so. Yet we roll over and get our bellies tickled.

 

It may never change but I keep holding out hope... I'm not convinced the incumbent manager has a clue how to set up to get results against the OF (not that previous incumbents have been much better, might I add...).

[Shooter McGavin]

Rangers’ squad is worth 7.5 times more than ours, Celtics squad value is worth 6 times more than our. Both will have wage budgets that mirror, or could even be higher than those figures.

Financially, the both of them are on another planet compared to us and the rest of the league.

 

Don’t really understand how some people can’t grasp that already.

[TexasAndy]

We can never close the financial gap but we can improve our mentality.  If we go out expecting to lose that's exactly what happens.