4-2-3-1. Alternatives to Boyce.

[No Idle Talk]

I am very much of the view that 4-2-3-1 is our best formation right now. 

 

I feel like we need someone better than Liam Boyce in the '10' position though. I'm not just saying that because of tonight, I've been thinking this for a wee while.

 

So......out of the current squad of players we have.........what other options do you think we could try?

 

I was thinking maybe we could push Jorge Grant forward into that position. He is technically pretty good and he's a good passer of the ball. I could see him creating a few chances for other players from that position. I'm not sure about his shooting or whether he can make the right runs into the box at the right time but he might be worth a try there?

 

You guys have any other options you think could work?

[NB GIN]

Mackay could play anywhere 

[OTT]

We’re between a rock and a hard place on that front IMO. 
 

What about Connor Smith? 

I’ve lost all patience with Boyce. Maybe not a popular opinion but I can’t see how such continual piss poor decision making can be justified by ‘he works hard and has a good football brain’.. 

Anyway, we’ll probably stick with Boyce. But hopefully a proper number 10 is delivered asap. 

[FFSJohn]

I really do think Boyce is not good enough and needs replacement shortly.

[Tom Hardy’s Dug]

A new signing.

 

He is probably the best current player in that position but he is costing us goals/games so we need an improvement.

 

For example since January:

 

1. That isn’t the first time he has tripped over his feet when clean through. It’s happened more than once.

 

2. That isn’t the first time he has switched to his weaker foot and a shite angle when he could have shot. Happened way more than once.

 

3. It also isn’t the first time he has missed a free header at the back post. Happened at least another twice.

 

Far too many repeating mistakes. We genuinely should be able to upgrade on this relatively easily.

 

 

[No Idle Talk]

3 minutes ago, NB GIN said:

Mackay could play anywhere 

 

Barrie McKay could definitely play that position. But if we move him there then we have to find a player to fill the position he is currently playing. We only really have GMS to slot in there. Not sure many people would be too keen on that idea(myself included).

[Jamboross]

7 minutes ago, No Idle Talk said:

I am very much of the view that 4-2-3-1 is our best formation right now. 

 

I feel like we need someone better than Liam Boyce in the '10' position though. I'm not just saying that because of tonight, I've been thinking this for a wee while.

 

So......out of the current squad of players we have.........what other options do you think we could try?

 

I was thinking maybe we could push Jorge Grant forward into that position. He is technically pretty good and he's a good passer of the ball. I could see him creating a few chances for other players from that position. I'm not sure about his shooting or whether he can make the right runs into the box at the right time but he might be worth a try there?

 

You guys have any other options you think could work?

 

I think when Beni is back to partner Cammy as the DMs it will be Grant's position, or more likely rotated between Grant, McKay and Forrest throughout a match. 

[PhoenixHearts]

Grant in at number 10 or if we get Mighten perhaps we could move Barrie in to a more central position.

[Tom Hardy’s Dug]

4 minutes ago, PhoenixHearts said:

Grant in at number 10 or if we get Mighten perhaps we could move Barrie in to a more central position.

I like Grant and he will be a good squad member.

 

We need better as our main 10.

[JAYEL]

Love Boyce but I think he needs some time out

 

But not until we buy a replacement 

[jack D and coke]

The Boyce howls are certainly getting louder and it’s hard to bat them away these days. 
It’s just not happening for him atm. 

[OTT]

12 minutes ago, Tom Hardy’s Dug said:

A new signing.

 

He is probably the best current player in that position but he is costing us goals/games so we need an improvement.

 

For example since January:

 

1. That isn’t the first time he has tripped over his feet when clean through. It’s happened more than once.

 

2. That isn’t the first time he has switched to his weaker foot and a shite angle when he could have shot. Happened way more than once.

 

3. It also isn’t the first time he has missed a free header at the back post. Happened at least another twice.

 

Far too many repeating mistakes. We genuinely should be able to upgrade on this relatively easily.

 

 

It’s hard to understand where this great football brain praise comes from. Awful decision making as soon as he gets a sight of goal. It’s the same problems over and over again. 
 

He got a let off against Hibs at hampden, cost us tonight and the pattern will continue.

 

In big games you cannot expect chances to keep coming to you to afford to waste several really good opportunities. If I was McKay I’d be losing the rag with him. Barrie couldn’t have done more to tee them up for him. Awful. 

[Arthur Morgan]

23 minutes ago, Tom Hardy’s Dug said:

A new signing.

 

He is probably the best current player in that position but he is costing us goals/games so we need an improvement.

 

For example since January:

 

1. That isn’t the first time he has tripped over his feet when clean through. It’s happened more than once.

 

2. That isn’t the first time he has switched to his weaker foot and a shite angle when he could have shot. Happened way more than once.

 

3. It also isn’t the first time he has missed a free header at the back post. Happened at least another twice.

 

Far too many repeating mistakes. We genuinely should be able to upgrade on this relatively easily.

 

 

 

6 minutes ago, OTT said:

It’s hard to understand where this great football brain praise comes from. Awful decision making as soon as he gets a sight of goal. It’s the same problems over and over again. 
 

He got a let off against Hibs at hampden, cost us tonight and the pattern will continue.

 

In big games you cannot expect chances to keep coming to you to afford to waste several really good opportunities. If I was McKay I’d be losing the rag with him. Barrie couldn’t have done more to tee them up for him. Awful. 

 

Both absolutely spot on. We can do better. 

[Pasquale for King]

Grant or McKay for me, the guy from Forest or the South Korean are Left wingers so that might be the plan for Barrie. 

[tian447]

People have been saying the same thing about Boyce for years.  Yes, he scores goals, but he also spaffs so many chances in the run up to scoring one, and repeatedly loses possession of the ball with piss poor decision making.  Through on goal, instead of having a pop, cuts inside in the most obvious manner, ruining the chance to work the keeper; it happens all the time.  Mis-hit shots which trundle at the keeper or wide, and just generally trying to be too clever for his own good.

 

He is very, very frustrating to watch because he could and should do so much better with the service he gets.

[Tom Hardy’s Dug]

2 minutes ago, tian447 said:

People have been saying the same thing about Boyce for years.  Yes, he scores goals, but he also spaffs so many chances in the run up to scoring one, and repeatedly loses possession of the ball with piss poor decision making.  Through on goal, instead of having a pop, cuts inside in the most obvious manner, ruining the chance to work the keeper; it happens all the time.  Mis-hit shots which trundle at the keeper or wide, and just generally trying to be too clever for his own good.

 

He is very, very frustrating to watch because he could and should do so much better with the service he gets.

But he doesn’t even really score goals anymore. 2 this year 😂

[jr ewing]

He needs to be dropped. 

[tiger Rudi]

Sending off aside I thought Grant was excellent in that 1st half. He should be first choice number 10 until we make a signing. Boyce's attempted cross/cutback in the first 5mins was embarrassingly bad. I was in the Wheatfield right behind him,  the goal opened up for him the next time he was in on goal. Clear chance to have a strike with his right foot,  only the keeper to beat and he tries to get it on his left. How many chances does he think he's gonna get at this level. Other players must be tearing their hair out!! His lack of pace and poor decision making in threatening areas is killing us!! 

[OTT]

9 minutes ago, tian447 said:

People have been saying the same thing about Boyce for years.  Yes, he scores goals, but he also spaffs so many chances in the run up to scoring one, and repeatedly loses possession of the ball with piss poor decision making.  Through on goal, instead of having a pop, cuts inside in the most obvious manner, ruining the chance to work the keeper; it happens all the time.  Mis-hit shots which trundle at the keeper or wide, and just generally trying to be too clever for his own good.

 

He is very, very frustrating to watch because he could and should do so much better with the service he gets.

I’ve lost all patience with him. I’m sick of seeing him hold onto the ball a second too long and **** up a chance because he cannot release the ball quickly enough, or want to cut inside (for the 100th time in a row that hasn’t worked yet btw) and **** that up too. 
 

Yes, he works hard. But so does 90% of the players out there. So go get one them that can have a pop at goal. 
 

I almost want him to be instructed to hit everything first time. Either shoot or immediately pass and move. The fantastic football brain is a myth. The minute he has to think it turns to shit. 
 

Edit: you know who has a fantastic football brain? Barrie McKay. Laddie knows exactly what he wants to achieve every time he touches the ball. It’s always creative and positive. He’s thinking about the next move and what he needs to do to make that happen. 

Edited August 25, 2022 by OTT

[Abiola Dauda]

Boyce needs a goal and I think he'll come good again. Not sure how much longer we can wait for that though. Can be a very important player 

[tian447]

13 minutes ago, Tom Hardy’s Dug said:

But he doesn’t even really score goals anymore. 2 this year 😂

 

He was top scorer last season, but only with 11 in all competitions.   Putting it into perspective, Stephen Kingsley had 7 in all comps.

 

A striker should be scoring far, far more than any defender!!

[tian447]

6 minutes ago, Abiola Dauda said:

Boyce needs a goal and I think he'll come good again. Not sure how much longer we can wait for that though. Can be a very important player 

 

But that's the thing, he doesn't "come good" and it certainly wouldn't be "again".

 

The same problems are persistent throughout every game, regardless of the ball ending up in the back of the net on occasions, and this myth that he is some sort of Lewandowski-esque player needs to stop, and stop soon.

[Maple Leaf]

1 hour ago, FFSJohn said:

I really do think Boyce is not good enough and needs replacement shortly.

 

Immediately?

[Jambo 4 Ever]

1 hour ago, FFSJohn said:

I really do think Boyce is not good enough and needs replacement shortly.

This

we need atleast another striker 

not this boy from Livingston who’s scored 3 goals

 

 

[Jambo 4 Ever]

3 minutes ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

Immediately?

Yes

[Lovecraft]

Boyce needs binned as he is no longer a striker.  

 

As the word suggests, a striker hits something.  Boyce just now wants to fart around with the ball for some reason.

 

 

[NB GIN]

20 hours ago, No Idle Talk said:

 

Barrie McKay could definitely play that position. But if we move him there then we have to find a player to fill the position he is currently playing. We only really have GMS to slot in there. Not sure many people would be too keen on that idea(myself included).

They will bring in 1 at least, maybe 2 wide players 

Mackay is just a perfect number 10

[NB GIN]

19 hours ago, Lovecraft said:

Boyce needs binned as he is no longer a striker.  

 

As the word suggests, a striker hits something.  Boyce just now wants to fart around with the ball for some reason.

 

 

He is finished hate to be pessimistic but he is far too slow 

[NB GIN]

23 hours ago, JAYEL said:

Love Boyce but I think he needs some time out

 

But not until we buy a replacement 

I have been a fan but to progress he has to sit out now 

Far too slow 

[Mr Elwood P]

23 hours ago, No Idle Talk said:

I am very much of the view that 4-2-3-1 is our best formation right now. 

 

I feel like we need someone better than Liam Boyce in the '10' position though. I'm not just saying that because of tonight, I've been thinking this for a wee while.

 

So......out of the current squad of players we have.........what other options do you think we could try?

 

I was thinking maybe we could push Jorge Grant forward into that position. He is technically pretty good and he's a good passer of the ball. I could see him creating a few chances for other players from that position. I'm not sure about his shooting or whether he can make the right runs into the box at the right time but he might be worth a try there?

 

You guys have any other options you think could work?

What's Jamie Walker up to?

[Mr Elwood P]

22 hours ago, tian447 said:

 

He was top scorer last season, but only with 11 in all competitions.   Putting it into perspective, Stephen Kingsley had 7 in all comps.

 

A striker should be scoring far, far more than any defender!!

James Tavernier.

[tian447]

2 hours ago, Mr Elwood P said:

James Tavernier.

 

9 goals last season.  Doesn't he take penalties? 

 

Not really comparable when he's not that much better for goals than Kingsley. 

[ri Alban]

On 25/08/2022 at 23:58, jack D and coke said:

The Boyce howls are certainly getting louder and it’s hard to bat them away these days. 
It’s just not happening for him atm. 

It will. He'll be back.

[Mr Elwood P]

6 hours ago, tian447 said:

 

9 goals last season.  Doesn't he take penalties? 

 

Not really comparable when he's not that much better for goals than Kingsley. 

Yep. Then compare Tavernier to the Rangers strikers. Then compare the gap between Kingsley > Boyce and Tavernier > Morelos or Roofe or Sakala ...

[Mikey1874]

A bit here from Kingsley on difference between back 4 and 3.

 

 

[Harry Potter]

Should have scored with header deep in to the 1st half, close enough to hit straight header , not off the ground.

[tian447]

2 hours ago, Mr Elwood P said:

Yep. Then compare Tavernier to the Rangers strikers. Then compare the gap between Kingsley > Boyce and Tavernier > Morelos or Roofe or Sakala ...

 

Why the **** are we so concerned about Rangers players all of a sudden? 

 

The point remains that Boyce is pish and needs to sort himself out. 

[Ex member of the SaS]

Been saying for a long long time I never rated Boyce and was shouted down saying I don't know football, yet here we are with most now agreeing he needs punted. Just how many times does he trip over the ball/own feet? How many times does he fluff a pass in front of goal? How many times does he jump for the ball only for a foul against? I really do think we can do better for the same money. ( don't ask who as I am not a scout and don't watch much of other teams )

[4marsbars]

2 hours ago, Harry Potter said:

Should have scored with header deep in to the 1st half, close enough to hit straight header , not off the ground.

 

Come on, that was bad luck. My dad never tired of telling me how Willie Bauld would head the ball (downwards). Boyce made exactly the right call. Who would expect the bounce to go over the bar? How often does that happen? Bad luck. For some, unforgivable, and evidence of a player's imagined decline.

 

People of Kickback. We don't actually need these 'find someone to complain about' threads. These are good times. Let’s give Boyce a Boost, not put the Boot in.

 

(And before I get another of these "we're entitled to criticise" replies. Yes, you are. But why? It's not so long since many here expressed doubts about our current manager. How foolish do they look now? But they'll find reasons to justify their relentless daftness.)

[BigPhysicalHearts]

I wonder if Boyce could play further back and be transformed into a midfielder. He's clearly lost his confidence in front of goal but he can still link play and pick a pass, he just isn't quick or ruthless enough when the chances fall to him in the box.

[CMc]

Boyce has a significant role to play this season. 
 

He is not a classic 10 by any means. He is far more Felani than he is Raul these days. 
 

However, he plays a really important role for our team both on and off the ball.
 

Offensively, he wins a lot of aerial duels and has good movement to make himself available. He’s strong and can normally hold off a challenge. Has passing is usually pretty decent. 
 

The thing that may be hardest to recognise about his game is that his contribution off the ball is now arguably more important than what he does with it. As well as providing an out ball and making sure opposing defences struggle to turnover our clearances cleanly, he is absolutely critical to our press. Shankland is a fairly traditional 9. If he could press like Sadio Mane, he would have cost 3-4 times as much. 
 

Whilst EPL comparisons seem to rip a few folk’s knitting, it is hard not to recognise Jürgen Klopp as one of the key drivers of modern tactical innovation. His line about the press being his best playmaker is relevant here. Liam is an absolute menace to the opposing CBs and number 6. 
 

McKay’s recovery stats are surprisingly good. But they come from good positioning and interceptions, not his individual pressing contribution. 
 

Forrest has a good engine and is getting better at harassing his fullback, but he can’t do it by himself. 
 

Compare our pressing game against Ross County and the games v Hibs and Zurich (last 20 away and at home). Cam is obviously a huge part of it, but Liam was also central to penning Zurich in their own half for the first 45 minutes on Thursday. The tactic worked so well many of our attacks started with turnovers in their half rather than build-up play from our half. 

Don’t get me wrong, I’m gutted he missed a sitter on Thursday. I’m aware his touch can be frustrating and that his confidence and decision making have led to a lot of wasted chances in 2022.  But equally, we didn’t get 3rd last year without him and we are less of an overall threat without him as we stand. 
 

Could we improve on him? Yes, of course we could. The top ceiling on strikers and tens goes way beyond what we will ever see again. There’s likely even better in our upgraded price bracket. But to be real, someone who can finish like Shanks and graft like Boyce is going to be at or beyond our absolute top budget. I can see why we need to play both until we can find an Allrounder who is inexplicably undervalued by his club and other prospective suitors. 
 

Our squad has improved so rapidly that one of our former stars is now a squad player. Doesn’t mean he cannot contribute or is no longer important. 
 

We will sign better eventually. But if we can’t be with the one we love, we need to love the one we’re with. Especially when he continues to add a very important (if different) contribution to our overall game. 
 

 

Edited August 27, 2022 by CMc

[CMc]

On 25/08/2022 at 23:43, FFSJohn said:

I really do think Boyce is not good enough and needs replacement shortly.

I think this is excessively harsh. 

[OTT]

7 hours ago, BigPhysicalHearts said:

I wonder if Boyce could play further back and be transformed into a midfielder. He's clearly lost his confidence in front of goal but he can still link play and pick a pass, he just isn't quick or ruthless enough when the chances fall to him in the box.

nope. He still needs too long on the ball. Boyce was great 2 years ago. Sadly he’s regressed. The bench is the best place for him. Either he makes an impact from there, or it lights a fire under his arse to sharpen up. Either way, we shouldn’t be looking to shoehorn him in any further. He’s been given the 10 role because Shanks is better as a striker. 
 

Sign a real 10 and let Boyce compete with Shankland.

[CMc]

21 minutes ago, OTT said:

nope. He still needs too long on the ball. Boyce was great 2 years ago. Sadly he’s regressed. The bench is the best place for him. Either he makes an impact from there, or it lights a fire under his arse to sharpen up. Either way, we shouldn’t be looking to shoehorn him in any further. He’s been given the 10 role because Shanks is better as a striker. 
 

Sign a real 10 and let Boyce compete with Shankland.

If he gets a few, I think his confidence will go up. 
 

If he was hitting it early with confidence, I feel he would get a better result. 
 

A couple of goals would help him relax a bit and stop overthinking it IMO. 

[fila]

12 hours ago, Harry Potter said:

Should have scored with header deep in to the 1st half, close enough to hit straight header , not off the ground.

Spot on, was a sitter . I was livid with Grant ( still pissed of) , but if Boyce scores its a different game , was as a much as a game changer as the sending of 

[Neverforgetfiveone]

On 25/08/2022 at 23:41, NB GIN said:

Mackay could play anywhere 

Bit short for a goalie 😂

[HillmanHearts]

Not being intentionally contrary to growing swell of opinion but my humble view is that Boycie is a cracking player who is going through a wee bit of a confidence slump.

 

Much better for us a club, and for the guy ,that we get together and support him through this because an in form Boyce is terrific asset.

 

( not with standing,  I did think “ ffs Boycie” like the rest on Thursday when the header missed the target ).

 

Also think we need a big unit up front to offer another dimension.

 

 

[Ked]

1 minute ago, HillmanHearts said:

Not being intentionally contrary to growing swell of opinion but my humble view is that Boycie is a cracking player who is going through a wee bit of a confidence slump.

 

Much better for us a club, and for the guy ,that we get together and support him through this because an in form Boyce is terrific asset.

 

( not with standing,  I did think “ ffs Boycie” like the rest on Thursday when the header missed the target ).

 

Also think we need a big unit up front to offer another dimension.

 

 

We always seem to be a better team with Boyce in it.

But his mistakes are glaring .

Really appreciate Boyce but he needs to make sure from now on.

 

[Bull's-eye]

Boyce is a good player.

 

The end.

[Tom Hardy’s Dug]

9 hours ago, 4marsbars said:

 

Come on, that was bad luck. My dad never tired of telling me how Willie Bauld would head the ball (downwards). Boyce made exactly the right call. Who would expect the bounce to go over the bar? How often does that happen? Bad luck. For some, unforgivable, and evidence of a player's imagined decline.

 

People of Kickback. We don't actually need these 'find someone to complain about' threads. These are good times. Let’s give Boyce a Boost, not put the Boot in.

 

(And before I get another of these "we're entitled to criticise" replies. Yes, you are. But why? It's not so long since many here expressed doubts about our current manager. How foolish do they look now? But they'll find reasons to justify their relentless daftness.)

 

Point is the cross was set up perfectly for him just to head it back to goal away from the keeper. He didn’t need to stot it off the ground and in doing so completely lost control of the outcome. Shocking miss me if you think it was a text book header then you’re completely wrong.

 

55 minutes ago, fila said:

Spot on, was a sitter . I was livid with Grant ( still pissed of) , but if Boyce scores its a different game , was as a much as a game changer as the sending of 

I agree. He must have had a huge glaring error nearly every game he has started for us in 2022.

 

The bad outweighs the good imo - understand he will still play until we replace with better but as it stands once we sign this German lad, Grant should go to 10 and get a chance in his preferred position for a few games.