Set Pieces

[TheBigO]

Outwith comfort zone here as don't usually start threads and also not one to piss and moan, but....

 

We need to get our set pieces sorted.  I've been on here with stats defending our goals from corner ratio when people are being a bit unrealistic (a goal per 20 corners is a good return).  However, I'm getting a bit frustrated at how bad our set pieces are, especially in "big" games.

 

We had 6 corners yesterday - a testiment to our territorial advantage in that good second half - and not one hit the mark.  A mixture of poor delivery and, I don't know, poorly planned runs??!

 

Similar in the last derby, the semi final derby and the cup final.  We had great chances, plenty of freekicks and corners, but I don't recall a single one resulting even in a chance.  We aren't the biggest team in the league, but still, a bit of invention, or more agression, or certainly better bloody delivery would be nice.

 

Wasn't sure how to check, but would anyone know how many we scored from corners last season to see if this stands up (I recall Kingsley scoring a header or two maybe?)?  Or is this just "can make the difference in big games" shouting at the moon type stuff?  Either way, it's pertinent.  If it's tight on Thursday and we get a few corners/free kicks, it could be the difference.

[Armageddon]

Cochrane 100% to blame for the shocking delivery on most, 3 in a row were horrendous. 

[Homme]

1 minute ago, Armageddon said:

Cochrane 100% to blame for the shocking delivery on most, 3 in a row were horrendous. 

 

Yep. We would normally have Grant taking them.

 

When GMS took over yesterday they improved ten fold.

[Cruickie's Moustache]

Always a killer when professional footballers can't get a corner past the front post or alternatively blast it over everybody and the ball goes out on the other side for a throw in.

 

Most basketball players will consistently score from a free throw.

Every professional  golfer will hit their wedge to the same spot time after time.

Even Rugby players taking place kicks score more than they miss and even when they miss its not by much. Misses are usually from length or wide/tight angles.

 

Footballers just simply don't put the hours in on some of the basics. It's that simple. 

 

[TheBigO]

8 minutes ago, Armageddon said:

Cochrane 100% to blame for the shocking delivery on most, 3 in a row were horrendous. 

 

6 minutes ago, Homme said:

 

Yep. We would normally have Grant taking them.

 

When GMS took over yesterday they improved ten fold.

Agreed looking at yesterday in isolation, but it brings up the point what was done in training?  Is Cochrane whipping them right in to the danger zone every time at Riccarton?  Do we even really work on them (we must of course, but is there a real focus?)

 

I'm not a coach, so I don't know the science of time spent on this taking away from time spent on other factors etc.  But I do know I've been left very frustrated in recent big games by us basically giving the ball back every time we get a corner (we lost a bloody goal to Hibs in the 3-1 game by floating a shite ball in to their goalies gloves!  And that was Barrie, not telling me with his technique, he can't put in a great corner!?!?!).

 

I guess it just seems weird to me!

 

As I say, the stats may point out I'm wrong, but its been ripping my knitting of late

[dazajmbo]

9 minutes ago, Homme said:

 

Yep. We would normally have Grant taking them.

 

When GMS took over yesterday they improved ten fold.

 

Grant the set piece expert, was awful at set pieces the game before * hibs IIRC?

[BigAlim]

Whilst we’re not the biggest team, Halkett and Haring have grabbed us set piece goals in the past, so has Kingsley and I’m sure Shankland could do some damage. The delivery is the issue imo

[TheBigO]

Just now, BigAlim said:

Whilst we’re not the biggest team, Halkett and Haring have grabbed us set piece goals in the past, so has Kingsley and I’m sure Shankland could do some damage. The delivery is the issue imo

Yeah I think it is too.  It's a bit hard to work out as Grant took some pish corners against Hibs @dazajmbo but then he took a couple of what looked like decent deliveries to a good area and no one was there!!!  So is that delivery?  Is it poor planning?  Is it those who should have been there not being there?

It just feels it's something we all round need to work on imo.  It could really be a difference maker.

 

And hopefully I'm proved a squealing pant wetter when we start scoring from corners every week now!

[Nookie Bear]

4 minutes ago, TheBigO said:

 

Agreed looking at yesterday in isolation, but it brings up the point what was done in training?  Is Cochrane whipping them right in to the danger zone every time at Riccarton?  Do we even really work on them (we must of course, but is there a real focus?)

 

I'm not a coach, so I don't know the science of time spent on this taking away from time spent on other factors etc.  But I do know I've been left very frustrated in recent big games by us basically giving the ball back every time we get a corner (we lost a bloody goal to Hibs in the 3-1 game by floating a shite ball in to their goalies gloves!  And that was Barrie, not telling me with his technique, he can't put in a great corner!?!?!).

 

I guess it just seems weird to me!

 

As I say, the stats may point out I'm wrong, but its been ripping my knitting of late

 

Slightly related but i couldn't believe the number of times we had a free kick in Zurich and by the time the camera had cut away to the guy with the pipe and come back to the action we were defending an attack.

[Homme]

3 minutes ago, dazajmbo said:

 

Grant the set piece expert, was awful at set pieces the game before * hibs IIRC?

 

I'm not sure who bummed him up. Probably a throwaway comment on here but you're right we haven't seen much from him to warrant that tag.

 

We have Kingsley for free kicks but we need him in the box for corners as he is so dangerous. Our corners have been disappointing so far in the main.

 

 

[TheBigO]

1 minute ago, Nookie Bear said:

 

Slightly related but i couldn't believe the number of times we had a free kick in Zurich and by the time the camera had cut away to the guy with the pipe and come back to the action we were defending an attack.

TBF I couldn't get enough of old Pipey McGhee.  What a lad!

[TheBigO]

1 minute ago, Homme said:

 

I'm not sure who bummed him up. Probably a throwaway comment on here but you're right we haven't seen much from him to warrant that tag.

 

We have Kingsley for free kicks but we need him in the box for corners as he is so dangerous. Our corners have been disappointing so far in the main.

 

 

Pretty sure he said it himself.  May still be the case of course.

[dazajmbo]

1 minute ago, TheBigO said:

Yeah I think it is too.  It's a bit hard to work out as Grant took some pish corners against Hibs @dazajmbo but then he took a couple of what looked like decent deliveries to a good area and no one was there!!!  So is that delivery?  Is it poor planning?  Is it those who should have been there not being there?

It just feels it's something we all round need to work on imo.  It could really be a difference maker.

 

And hopefully I'm proved a squealing pant wetter when we start scoring from corners every week now!

 

The worst thing a new player can be described as is a set play expert.

 

Maulary Martin

 

As prime example.

 

 

There was no bigging up of Aguiar, Hartley etc prior to it happening on the pitch 

[Shaggy2]

8 minutes ago, dazajmbo said:

 

Grant the set piece expert, was awful at set pieces the game before * hibs IIRC?

True. I’d suggest that Hibs equaliser saved Grant from getting absolute pelters on here. His delivery and general performance was pretty guff at ER. 

[Riccarton3]

The ineptitude is breathtaking. Professional players ffs. Something sadly amiss somewhere

[A_A wehatethehibs]

Mcphee back in as corners coach? 

[Bungalow Bill]

Yeah statistically, 3 out of 100 corners end in a goal, my mind was blown by that. 

Edited August 22, 2022 by Bungalow Bill

[liam11]

Deliveries yesterday from Cochrane in particular were atrocious. Hit the first man every single time.

 

What also struck me though, was not once did anyone make a front post run, try win a flick on or anything. We all just crowded around the back post and watched as the ball is cleared at the first opportunity.

 

[The Old Tolbooth]

I was reading recently that statistically, only 5% of goals come from corners, which is a low return rate, I was quite shocked at those stats and it means that corners are not as profitable as what people think. 

[TheBigO]

1 minute ago, A_A wehatethehibs said:

Mcphee back in as corners coach? 

Well, the big teams have them.  Wonder what we do?  Not a leading question, a genuine question.  We seem quite modern in our approach to many things, wonder if this would be worth investment.

 

Austin doesn't just come up with set pieces, he also scouts and analyses opposition to find weak spots, strong points etc and uses that to inform what they do.  Such a big part of play and such a difference maker if you get it right, is it worth it?

As I mentioned above, do you need to lose focus on another facet of your game to allow the time for true focus on this?  Think of a team like Burnley who scored loads from set pieces.  Would they have been a better team if they focused on other shit as well?

[jambopilms]

I though we got someone in last season to help out on set pieces. Seemed to work for a while too.

[AllyjamboDerbyshire]

Totally agree that our goals return from dead ball situations has been abysmal in recent seasons and made worse by the derth of close things from the dead balls that do reach a Hearts head. At a guess I'd say that around 50% of balls played into the box are poor to very poor, but the real problem is that so little is made of those that range from not bad to pretty good as no one is getting onto the end of them. Kingsley seems to be the only player we have who knows how to time his run and attack the ball in our dead ball attacking situations and he can't do it every time (I'm sure the oposition will know by now to block his runs). One of the most annoying things is when the ball is delivered three or four times from successive corners to more or less the same spot and no Hearts player attacks it and it beggars belief that we do not practice this at training. Maybe we do, maybe we don't.

The proportion of goals scored from corners and free kicks for a club like, say, Livinston, compared to ours must be quite telling and in games against much bigger and better clubs must make a big difference to their results over the season. In fact, with nothing but memory and guesswork to go on, I'd suggest that goals from dead ball situations have always led to a very high proportion of goals scored in Europe by Scottish clubs and that, to progress in Europe, we'll have to improve on that big time.

[TheBigO]

5 minutes ago, The Old Tolbooth said:

I was reading recently that statistically, only 5% of goals come from corners, which is a low return rate, I was quite shocked at those stats and it means that corners are not as profitable as what people think. 

And also that's goals resulting from corners, goals directly from corners (ie ball in box, heider, bang) is less that 2% I think.  So if we score 50 goals only one will be a header from a corner.  Mad!  Still think we can do better.  In fact is shows you if you do this twice as much it can give you a real leg up.

[TheBigO]

7 minutes ago, AllyjamboDerbyshire said:

Totally agree that our goals return from dead ball situations has been abysmal in recent seasons and made worse by the derth of close things from the dead balls that do reach a Hearts head. At a guess I'd say that around 50% of balls played into the box are poor to very poor, but the real problem is that so little is made of those that range from not bad to pretty good as no one is getting onto the end of them. Kingsley seems to be the only player we have who knows how to time his run and attack the ball in our dead ball attacking situations and he can't do it every time (I'm sure the oposition will know by now to block his runs). One of the most annoying things is when the ball is delivered three or four times from successive corners to more or less the same spot and no Hearts player attacks it and it beggars belief that we do not practice this at training. Maybe we do, maybe we don't.

The proportion of goals scored from corners and free kicks for a club like, say, Livinston, compared to ours must be quite telling and in games against much bigger and better clubs must make a big difference to their results over the season. In fact, with nothing but memory and guesswork to go on, I'd suggest that goals from dead ball situations have always led to a very high proportion of goals scored in Europe by Scottish clubs and that, to progress in Europe, we'll have to improve on that big time.

I think a point you make here is very valid to the point of my OP - it's the chances created that irks me really.  Don't often get an "oooooh" from a corner.

[jambocub]

Severe lack of practice is the issue

[1971fozzy]

Corners for us always frustrate me. Hardly an advantage.  We’ve been poor at them for years

[KyleLafferty]

I actually think we should be employing a set piece coach. I think Jig and Forrest do it now but they aren’t good enough really.

[AllyjamboDerbyshire]

11 minutes ago, TheBigO said:

I think a point you make here is very valid to the point of my OP - it's the chances created that irks me really.  Don't often get an "oooooh" from a corner.

Apart from goals scored, or not, from corners, they can be a good way of keeping pressure up if the delivery and attack of the ball is effective, especially when defending a narrow lead. Using up three or four minutes from repeated corner kicks - because the oposition can't clear the ball without giving away another corner - would be very handy, particularly in situations we find ourselves in like the last Derby match.

[A_A wehatethehibs]

Anybody know if our “goals from set pieces” is anything below the football average which is iirc 97% of set pieces do not result in a goal? 

[TheBigO]

1 minute ago, A_A wehatethehibs said:

Anybody know if our “goals from set pieces” is anything below the football average which is iirc 97% of set pieces do not result in a goal? 

Would love to know.  I bet we're about average.  Football - especially big games - is emotional, so I wonder if we would downgrade our quality through disappointment and upgrade opposition quality due to the feeling of danger, however I do stand by - whatever the stats - that we need more output, great point above from @AllyjamboDerbyshire about corners being a way to apply pressure - we don't do that in my mind.  Ball gets cleared or keeper collects way too often.

[Locky]

You're pretty spot on OP, it is a bugbear of mine too. As you say, especially in big games. We should really be trying to make the most of set pieces in games at Parkhead and Ibrox.

 

I actually posted a stat on Twitter, and maybe hear too, last season that we went on a run of 21 games without scoring from a corner, in which time we had 136 corners. Halkett's equaliser at Ibrox, then nothing until we played Aberdeen at Tynie in March.

[skinnybob72]

Back in the day we scored loads of goals from a front post flick on by Levein or McPherson with Robbo getting on the end of it. 
 

These days we’re lucky to convert a penalty! 
 

I’d like to see one of players practicing to the point that every corner can be whipped in with pace right under the crossbar giving the keeper something to think about. Think it was Mackay-Steven at QoS two seasons back hit 5 in a row which hit the first defender and went back out for a corner! It was the shittest 3 minutes of football I’ve ever seen. 

[Harry Potter]

1 hour ago, Nookie Bear said:

 

Slightly related but i couldn't believe the number of times we had a free kick in Zurich and by the time the camera had cut away to the guy with the pipe and come back to the action we were defending an attack.

wonder if hes coming to Tynecastle.

[Diego10]

They were certainly pish yesterday.  Last season our return from set pieces was pretty good, although Kingsley accounted for a large part of that.  

 

Corners aren't easy to get right tbf, distances vary, there's defenders in the way.  I like a flat inswinger myself but they're easy to over or under hit slightly which makes them look terrible.

 

 

Edited August 22, 2022 by Diego10

[hearts00]

My Son and I played the same game every time Hearts played last season. 
 

We’d predict the score then we ‘d play the buy or sell triple:

 

1) Will Hearts score 3 (rarely happens)

2) Will Barrie Mckay score (happening more now thankfully)

3) Will Hearts score from a corner. 
 

I see no reason to change this game. 
 

While clearly set pieces improved last year through Kingsely’s direct efforts at goal, our corners or delivery into the box have been utterly dire for years. 
 

For context though does anyone actually know the stat of what % of corners in the league leads to a goal? Is it less than 5%? 

[Haken]

I suppose that to practice taking set pieces, that also has to include defending those same set pieces.

 

But I'd agree that there are basics that need worked upon, with 'beating the first player' being right at the top of the list.

[Midloth_Iain]

Lack of movement at corners allows defenders to hold their positions and if they are well trained, easy to defend against.

 

We need to move defenders around more, drag them out and be cute by 'blocking' defender runs.

 

Delivery needs improved of course but so does the intelligence of our attacking players when in the box.

[Midloth_Iain]

Defending corners is another issue.

 

With giants such as McKay and Devlin, we would be as well having them outside the box ready to pick up 2nd balls.

 

Whenever we clear a corner there is no-one to pick it up

[soonbe110]

2 hours ago, Homme said:

 

I'm not sure who bummed him up. Probably a throwaway comment on here but you're right we haven't seen much from him to warrant that tag.

 

We have Kingsley for free kicks but we need him in the box for corners as he is so dangerous. Our corners have been disappointing so far in the main.

 

 

His set pieces in pre-season games were excellent.  Don’t know what happened in Hibs game. 

[Rogue Daddy]

2 hours ago, Homme said:

 

I'm not sure who bummed him up. Probably a throwaway comment on here but you're right we haven't seen much from him to warrant that tag.

 

We have Kingsley for free kicks but we need him in the box for corners as he is so dangerous. Our corners have been disappointing so far in the main.

 

 

I noticed in the Dundee UTD game, we had 3 (I think) corners on the right, in a row. Grant took each one (an out-swinger) and every one was crap. After that, Cochrane took them on the right (in-swinger) and Grant continued from the left (in-swinger). Point is, I think we're crap at out-swingers... and only practice in-swingers. (A bit tongue-in-cheek) but I think we set-up (at corners) for in-swingers... at least, that's how it looked to me. Grant and Cochrane seem to be pretty good at those (although I wasn't watching yesterday, and don't know what side Cochrane was taking the kicks from.)

[Pans Jambo]

Seriously, if you take a corner and cant beat the first man you should get a weeks wages docked!!!

 

It annoys the life out of me that a pro cant take a corner properly!!!

 

I understand our attack getting well defended and that's fine, but to not at least get a corner kick on target or above 6 bloody feet is an absolute disgrace!

 

Its the basics FFS!!!

 

[Bull's-eye]

How many goals are scored direct from corners these days ?

[Rogue Daddy]

5 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

Seriously, if you take a corner and cant beat the first man you should get a weeks wages docked!!!

 

It annoys the life out of me that a pro cant take a corner properly!!!

 

I understand our attack getting well defended and that's fine, but to not at least get a corner kick on target or above 6 bloody feet is an absolute disgrace!

 

Its the basics FFS!!!

 

Completely agree. For me, it's right up there with these penalty takers that take one step and invariably miss. No excuses, complete disgrace.... maybe some sort of flogging as well, for good measure? 🤬

[amadjambo]

3 hours ago, TheBigO said:

Outwith comfort zone here as don't usually start threads and also not one to piss and moan, but....

 

We need to get our set pieces sorted.  I've been on here with stats defending our goals from corner ratio when people are being a bit unrealistic (a goal per 20 corners is a good return).  However, I'm getting a bit frustrated at how bad our set pieces are, especially in "big" games.

 

We had 6 corners yesterday - a testiment to our territorial advantage in that good second half - and not one hit the mark.  A mixture of poor delivery and, I don't know, poorly planned runs??!

 

Similar in the last derby, the semi final derby and the cup final.  We had great chances, plenty of freekicks and corners, but I don't recall a single one resulting even in a chance.  We aren't the biggest team in the league, but still, a bit of invention, or more agression, or certainly better bloody delivery would be nice.

 

Wasn't sure how to check, but would anyone know how many we scored from corners last season to see if this stands up (I recall Kingsley scoring a header or two maybe?)?  Or is this just "can make the difference in big games" shouting at the moon type stuff?  Either way, it's pertinent.  If it's tight on Thursday and we get a few corners/free kicks, it could be the difference.

Agree our set pieces are awful, but how could you forget that stunning goal from a well worked set piece in the Semi Final!

[TheBigO]

2 minutes ago, amadjambo said:

Agree our set pieces are awful, but how could you forget that stunning goal from a well worked set piece in the Semi Final!

Oh absolutely.  We need to take Kingsley's freekicks out the equation here!!!  I'm thinking corners!

[Diego10]

42 minutes ago, Midloth_Iain said:

Defending corners is another issue.

 

With giants such as McKay and Devlin, we would be as well having them outside the box ready to pick up 2nd balls.

 

Whenever we clear a corner there is no-one to pick it up

They'll all have jobs.  Either guarding space the ball might drop into or blocking runners.  

 

I don't like 11 men back but we don't lose many goals from corners and we scored a few times on the counter from them last year

[amadjambo]

Just now, TheBigO said:

Oh absolutely.  We need to take Kingsley's freekicks out the equation here!!!  I'm thinking corners!

Never understood why we don’t have one player ghosting in at the back post for crosses and corners. More often than not, provided we get it past the first man it sails over everyone’s head to the empty space at the back post.

[Pans Jambo]

The squad must watch re-runs of games to see what worked well and what didn't. surely?

 

If they do, they must see for themselves that the majority of our corners are just not very good.

Edited August 22, 2022 by Pans Jambo

[Jambo 4 Ever]

The last game at end of 1st half - we had a free kick around the half way line 

 

only 1 min to play

 

instead of kicking it into their box we end up dilly-dallying too much pass back and almost concede

 

very poor

[RustyRightPeg]

5 minutes ago, Jambo 4 Ever said:

The last game at end of 1st half - we had a free kick around the half way line 

 

only 1 min to play

 

instead of kicking it into their box we end up dilly-dallying too much pass back and almost concede

 

very poor

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