Potential new training facilities.

[Mysterion]

2 minutes ago, Samuel Camazzola said:

Does the club own a stake in the facilities out at Heriot Watt? I'm sure when we first moved into there, the club contributed a couple of million (from SMG money) to develop some of the place. 

 

We effectively secured a deal where we contributed to the budget HW had to build a set of facilities for Sport Science purposes and we obtained a 25yr lease to use the building with areas specific to HMFC. For Hearts we had a serviced facility and in theory access to Sport Science to help support the club/academy.

 

It's worked pretty well. 

[Pasquale for King]

If we are going to do this then we need to open up the facilities for the community to use also, and also maybe help make some money back to pay off any debt we take on. 
The likelihood is better facilities at Riccarton for our use primarily. 

[Mysterion]

5 hours ago, A_A wehatethehibs said:

Say what you want about East Mains, Hibs training ground is bought and paid for. Whereas we’re paying what, a player or 2’s worth of wages a season rent? Every season? it adds up. When you look at it that way you see why it comes onto the agenda, given the fine margins in football. 

 

Having visited Ormiston it doesn't look like much but it's pitches are decent. The snobbery comes because it just looks like a warehouse and you look over and there's a cowshed right next to it. If Hearts are building something then there are two places to model a training facility/academy on in Scotland:

 

Cormack Park - pretty smart modern building but missing indoor facilities (would need to add a full size pitch with seating). What I would say is that Cormack Park is massive and cost factored in extra land for a stadium, the price Aberdeen talk about would be less if they didn't have the extra land.

 

Auchenhowie/Murray Park - older building but actually very nice. It's negative is that the indoor pitch is not full size and it doesn't have any seating area. Just needs to be bigger.

 

If we want to build an FoH legacy then it should be done right.

[upgotheheads]

I wonder if this is all about leverage for when the contract for the current training system needs to be renewed.

[Mysterion]

Just now, Pasquale for King said:

If we are going to do this then we need to open up the facilities for the community to use also, and also maybe help make some money back to pay off any debt we take on. 
The likelihood is better facilities at Riccarton for our use primarily. 

 

Depending on what you mean - Academy facilities aren't really for just opening up for people to come play 5s. Players, staff, academy kids are in and out of the facility all the time. Can't really have randoms in the middle of it all turning up to play 5s on a pitch etc. This is why I suspect they want to develop a more locked down version of the Academy at Oriam. 

 

In general terms - There's defo scope for an expansion of the community coaching program Hearts have though which can make use of the facilities. 

[Unknown user]

5 hours ago, A_A wehatethehibs said:

 

Say what you want about East Mains, Hibs training ground is bought and paid for. Whereas we’re paying what, a player or 2’s worth of wages a season rent? Every season? it adds up. When you look at it that way you see why it comes onto the agenda, given the fine margins in football. 

 

It might be bought and paid for but as I remember it costs about the same to run as we pay in rent. Cleaning staff, maintenance staff, utilities, world class canteen, etc. They don't have access to a full size indoor pitch or a university sports science department and all of their gym equipment has to be paid for themselves.

 

The one real advantage I'd say they've got is privacy

[Pasquale for King]

1 hour ago, Mysterion said:

 

Depending on what you mean - Academy facilities aren't really for just opening up for people to come play 5s. Players, staff, academy kids are in and out of the facility all the time. Can't really have randoms in the middle of it all turning up to play 5s on a pitch etc. This is why I suspect they want to develop a more locked down version of the Academy at Oriam. 

 

In general terms - There's defo scope for an expansion of the community coaching program Hearts have though which can make use of the facilities. 

Yeah I was thinking more of a indoor community pitch that folk could play on but as you say that’s not really the point, when you have so many teams as we do. 
Whether we could expand our community coaching is debatable I suppose if the facility is the arse end of nowhere like East Mains, but I’m sure it would be part of the plans. 

[Mysterion]

1 hour ago, Pasquale for King said:

The likelihood is better facilities at Riccarton for our use primarily. 

 

Load up google maps, put the satellite view on and look at Oriam. 

 

IMO - next to car park H is there's enough room to put a building in place which includes a full indoor pitch and outside a fully private/fenced off grass pitch for the first team to use for match prep. Think of it like a mini Oriam (replicate the same design).

 

The rest of the facilities can be shared. 

[Pasquale for King]

Just now, Mysterion said:

 

Load up google maps, put the satellite view on and look at Oriam. 

 

IMO - next to car park H is there's enough room to put a building in place which includes a full indoor pitch and outside a fully private/fenced off grass pitch for the first team to use for match prep. Think of it like a mini Oriam (replicate the same design).

 

The rest of the facilities can be shared. 

I’ve not been up there for a while but I always thought there was room to make better facilities, maybe we should come to some sort of deal to buy the land and build on it. 
Im sure they could come to some sort of compromise if we want to. 
 

[Sooks]

7 minutes ago, Mysterion said:

 

Load up google maps, put the satellite view on and look at Oriam. 

 

IMO - next to car park H is there's enough room to put a building in place which includes a full indoor pitch and outside a fully private/fenced off grass pitch for the first team to use for match prep. Think of it like a mini Oriam (replicate the same design).

 

The rest of the facilities can be shared. 

 

I thought it was more likely to be one of the two fields south of that between Riccarton Mains Road and Currie Hill Road but yes I think you are right with what we are considering

[A_A wehatethehibs]

 

 

1 hour ago, Smithee said:

 

It might be bought and paid for but as I remember it costs about the same to run as we pay in rent. Cleaning staff, maintenance staff, utilities, world class canteen, etc. They don't have access to a full size indoor pitch or a university sports science department and all of their gym equipment has to be paid for themselves.

 

The one real advantage I'd say they've got is privacy

Yes privacy, full control of the facility, decision making, not interacting with general public. Every single person there is trusted club staff, wearing the badge so there’s an identity. There’s a lot of aspects to it. And for fans using the “rent is the same as the cost to run the place” argument, I just don’t believe that holds up over time, that will not be the case at Oriam for the future because without profit, there is zero incentive for the Oriam to have Hearts there. So rent will be going up, to ensure it’s profitable not loss-making for HWU. Besides, all that is accounting stuff, it’s not really something fans will have enough knowledge of, these bean counter finance guys ultimately will be providing the true information/facts which McKinley uses to form his opinions, about what’s the best decision for the club. They will be doing the sums thoroughly, the money will be a huge factor. But as sure as night follows day, we know that rent goes one way, up.
 

I know folk always want to defend Hearts, lord it over Hibs and say we’ve got the better facilities etc. And it is true to a certain extent. The oriam as a whole is a top class facility in Scotland, and mind the gap between the teams, we’re 25 points above them, ultimately that’s the output of the training which has taken place at the respective facilities. We’ve absolutely smashed them. But Hearts have constraints on our access to our facility. In the long term picture, Hibs are in control of their facility, they make the decisions, they can upgrade it, make changes, put an indoor pitch if they want. All in the fullness of time. So, certainly no envy of the cowshed itself, nor the shite location, but for me, some envy of the fact that they own the place. It’s a proper home for their football club, badge everywhere, fans on the staff, all pulling together. It was something Sir Alex always put great emphasis on, all the staff about the place, he knew absolutely everyone and every last person had to have the winning mentality to be on form every day. It’s a significant thing IMO which impacts players in subtle ways.
 

Bottom line is, the fact that senior management are making so much noise about building our own training Center, as a recurring theme now, really tells us all we need to know. Internally the club is clearly not happy with the current arrangement, and wants either a completely new arrangement or we’re building our own facility. For me, I believe the decisions already been made and we’re looking for a site, but that’s just an opinion 

[AlphonseCapone]

19 hours ago, August Landmesser said:

Could also be that AM has made our plans public in order to focus minds at the Oriam and make them think about possibly being more accommodating...

 

That would be my guess too. Though I think we're probably willing to follow through if necessary and we want them to know it. 

[Unknown user]

22 minutes ago, A_A wehatethehibs said:

 

 

Yes privacy, full control of the facility, decision making, not interacting with general public. Every single person there is trusted club staff, wearing the badge so there’s an identity. There’s a lot of aspects to it. And for fans using the “rent is the same as the cost to run the place” argument, I just don’t believe that holds up over time, that will not be the case at Oriam for the future because without profit, there is zero incentive for the Oriam to have Hearts there. So rent will be going up, to ensure it’s profitable not loss-making for HWU. Besides, all that is accounting stuff, it’s not really something fans will have enough knowledge of, these bean counter finance guys ultimately will be providing the true information/facts which McKinley uses to form his opinions, about what’s the best decision for the club. They will be doing the sums thoroughly, the money will be a huge factor. But as sure as night follows day, we know that rent goes one way, up.
 

I know folk always want to defend Hearts, lord it over Hibs and say we’ve got the better facilities etc. And it is true to a certain extent. The oriam as a whole is a top class facility in Scotland, and mind the gap between the teams, we’re 25 points above them, ultimately that’s the output of the training which has taken place at the respective facilities. We’ve absolutely smashed them. But Hearts have constraints on our access to our facility. In the long term picture, Hibs are in control of their facility, they make the decisions, they can upgrade it, make changes, put an indoor pitch if they want. All in the fullness of time. So, certainly no envy of the cowshed itself, nor the shite location, but for me, some envy of the fact that they own the place. It’s a proper home for their football club, badge everywhere, fans on the staff, all pulling together. It was something Sir Alex always put great emphasis on, all the staff about the place, he knew absolutely everyone and every last person had to have the winning mentality to be on form every day. It’s a significant thing IMO which impacts players in subtle ways.
 

Bottom line is, the fact that senior management are making so much noise about building our own training Center, as a recurring theme now, really tells us all we need to know. Internally the club is clearly not happy with the current arrangement, and wants either a completely new arrangement or we’re building our own facility. For me, I believe the decisions already been made and we’re looking for a site, but that’s just an opinion 

 

We currently have access to better facilities than hibs, it's beyond question, plus a much better location, on the west of the city for the central belt, near the airport, not far from tynie.

If we can work out something to add what we don't have at Oriam I see no need to move. I mean, that whole pulling together, winning mentality thing sounds great in theory but how's that working for hibs?

Edited May 26, 2022 by Smithee

[A_A wehatethehibs]

12 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

We currently have access to better facilities than hibs, it's beyond question, plus a much better location, on the west of the city for the central belt, near the airport, not far from tynie.

If we can work out something to add what we don't have at Oriam I see no need to move. I mean, that whole pulling together, winning mentality thing sounds great I'm theory but how's that working for hibs?

Issue there is the badge itself that’s on the facility. Fatal flaw. They’ve not got a prayer knowing it’s Hibernian FC. Be a bunch of spotty wee Hibs Ned ***** on the staff as well. Depressing for their players from day 1 and they built the cheapest possible setup as well. Hibsd it. But make that the Hearts version? In a better location? Itd be an absolutely different class experience for top class pro’s. A Bentley compared to their bashed up old Saxo 

Edited May 26, 2022 by A_A wehatethehibs

[Stu_HMFC]

11 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

We currently have access to better facilities than hibs, it's beyond question, plus a much better location, on the west of the city for the central belt, near the airport, not far from tynie.

If we can work out something to add what we don't have at Oriam I see no need to move. I mean, that whole pulling together, winning mentality thing sounds great in theory but how's that working for hibs?

I think that Hearts need to book sessions to use the indoor pitches and the gym is a bit mad. 

[Carl Fredrickson]

Wasnt their instances after lockdown when we couldnt train at Riccarton due to English teams having it booked? I assume we couldnt book it as we didnt know when we would be starting back and by the time we knew it was already booked. 

 

I think it could be a negotiation tool for the new lease but also appreciate the benefits that a private training ground would bring. A number of clubs have planted trees round the perimeter of their training grounds to reduce the risk of folk seeing what the team are working on. (Mind the ex Leeds manager being caught spying on opponents training)

 

Their are plenty of open fields in Midlothian and West Lothian that may be what we are looking at. Our benefactors may be behind this and if we are talking about it publicly then it must be being considered.  

[Bongo 1874]

Money better going on stadium expansion. 

[briever]

£400k a year is an absolute steal - are you sure this story hasn't been planted by some business property flunky?

[Sooks]

10 minutes ago, Bongo 1874 said:

Money better going on stadium expansion. 

Do you fancy your chances of snatching the CEO award from McKinlay at the awards tonight : - D

 

I will go with McKinlay and Savage on this one as they seem to be doing a pretty good job with how our money gets spent so far 

[Bongo 1874]

Just now, Sooks said:

Do you fancy your chances of snatching the CEO award from McKinlay at the awards tonight : - D

 

I will go with McKinlay and Savage on this one as they seem to be doing a pretty good job with how our money gets spent so far 

Spending money on a training facility that will get us no closer to Celtic and Rangers. 

 

What's wrong with the facilities they have? Scotland use them? 

 

Have you seen Hibs training ground? then compared it to Murray Park and Lennoxtown. 

 

Cormack Park is tinpot compared to Murray Park and Lennoxtown. 

 

We should wait for player sales and try to get a budget of £50 mil, then we will be able to rival Murray Park and Lennoxtown, for £20 mil we will get Tin pot, just my opinion 👍. 

[Unknown user]

21 minutes ago, Stu_HMFC said:

I think that Hearts need to book sessions to use the indoor pitches and the gym is a bit mad. 

Fair enough, I just think there are a lot of inherent positives in being based at the national sport academy that a club of our size can't replicate easily.

[Bongo 1874]

1 minute ago, Smithee said:

Fair enough, I just think there are a lot of inherent positives in being based at the national sport academy that a club of our size can't replicate easily.

You aren't wrong 👍 £20 mil training facilities?  by they time it's built it will need improved again, and it might not even be as good as the Oriam. 

 

Hibs thought the exact same were has it got them? 

[Sooks]

5 minutes ago, Bongo 1874 said:

Spending money on a training facility that will get us no closer to Celtic and Rangers. 

 

What's wrong with the facilities they have? Scotland use them? 

 

Have you seen Hibs training ground? then compared it to Murray Park and Lennoxtown. 

 

Cormack Park is tinpot compared to Murray Park and Lennoxtown. 

 

We should wait for player sales and try to get a budget of £50 mil, then we will be able to rival Murray Park and Lennoxtown, for £20 mil we will get Tin pot, just my opinion 👍. 

Email the club and let them know all these things may be they have not considered any of it

[Bongo 1874]

Just now, Sooks said:

Email the club and let them know all these things may be they have not considered any of it

I know exactly what the problem is but I'm not putting it on this forum 👍. 

[Sooks]

1 minute ago, Bongo 1874 said:

I know exactly what the problem is but I'm not putting it on this forum 👍. 

I will just dismiss this then if you are not going to post it

[Bazzas right boot]

Hopefully the idea to work with whoever owns Oriam and work together has been explored. 

Saves money, upgrades facilities and benefits everyone. 

 

 

[Bongo 1874]

2 minutes ago, Bazzas right boot said:

Hopefully the idea to work with whoever owns Oriam and work together has been explored. 

Saves money, upgrades facilities and benefits everyone. 

 

 

Exactly i really don't see the point in moving, close to our stadium? 

 

Are we definitely going to get better than the Oriam with £20mil? 

 

[Pans Jambo]

We won the Scottish Cup in 98 training in a school park in Pinkie and using Musselburgh swimming pool showers & changing facilities. Not great, not ideal and I realise times have changed etc but £20Million plus for a training facility? Is Space X building it? What does it cost for a park and and a shower block FFS?

Edited May 26, 2022 by Pans Jambo

[Unknown user]

6 minutes ago, Bazzas right boot said:

Hopefully the idea to work with whoever owns Oriam and work together has been explored. 

Saves money, upgrades facilities and benefits everyone. 

 

This

[EH11 2NL]

The scenes on .net if the benefactors buy us a state of the art brand new training centre 

 

[Bazzas right boot]

18 minutes ago, Smithee said:

This

 

 

Be daft if we build a facility and then they also spend x amount to upgrade over time as well. 

 

 

[Clerry Jambo]

43 minutes ago, Bongo 1874 said:

Spending money on a training facility that will get us no closer to Celtic and Rangers. 

 

What's wrong with the facilities they have? Scotland use them? 

 

Have you seen Hibs training ground? then compared it to Murray Park and Lennoxtown. 

 

Cormack Park is tinpot compared to Murray Park and Lennoxtown. 

 

We should wait for player sales and try to get a budget of £50 mil, then we will be able to rival Murray Park and Lennoxtown, for £20 mil we will get Tin pot, just my opinion 👍. 

I’m with you Bongo. Spend on completing stadium and building a side to make us best of the rest at least in the short term. We haven’t really benefited in bringing through  young talent to the first team of late

[Sooks]

2 minutes ago, Clerry Jambo said:

I’m with you Bongo. Spend on completing stadium and building a side to make us best of the rest at least in the short term. We haven’t really benefited in bringing through  young talent to the first team of late

What would you define as completing the stadium though

[NB GIN]

20 hours ago, OTT said:

Saw this article on the EEN

 

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/football/hearts/exclusive-hearts-ps20m-plan-for-a-new-training-ground-explained-by-chief-executive-andrew-mckinlay-3708372

 

Pretty interesting, obviously potentially more than £20m on training facilities is a pretty big expense. I wonder if there is scope for more flexibility at Oriam. My understanding was that the lease is around £400k pa. 

 

Looking at rivals training grounds:

 

Aberdeen spent £14m (2019)

Hibs spent £5m (2007)

Celtic £8m (2007)

Rangers £14m (2001)

 

Obviously aiming for more than a Hibs style cow shed, but if it happens it will be interesting as to what we end up with. I would hope the target would be facilities of a similar standard to the OF/whats currently on offer at Riccarton. Seem to remember a lot of the players noting how impressed they've been with our current facilities. 

Would rather see the team strengthened to be honest 

[Samuel Camazzola]

5 hours ago, Mysterion said:

 

We effectively secured a deal where we contributed to the budget HW had to build a set of facilities for Sport Science purposes and we obtained a 25yr lease to use the building with areas specific to HMFC. For Hearts we had a serviced facility and in theory access to Sport Science to help support the club/academy.

 

It's worked pretty well. 

Cheers 👍 

 

I had a visit/tour of the place around 2003/2004 and it was impressive back then. There were parts which were restricted from the visit (the sports science areas) but the main training areas were superb. 

[jr ewing]

1 hour ago, Bongo 1874 said:

Exactly i really don't see the point in moving, close to our stadium? 

 

Are we definitely going to get better than the Oriam with £20mil? 

 

Correct and nope 🙅🏻 

[A_A wehatethehibs]

“For me personally having your own training ground is crucial for the personal development of your players. Going forward we would love to have our own training ground…“

 

- Joe Savage 

 

Definitely get the impression Savage is a driving force behind this because it was never even mentioned during the Levein days 

 

[Clerry Jambo]

1 hour ago, Sooks said:

What would you define as completing the stadium though

Is the whole 2nd floor not needing done?

[Bazzas right boot]

 

7 hours ago, Arfur said:

The facilities at Oriam are meant to be fantastic but I believe that the issue is that we don’t have exclusive use so if any additional training is required we need to book it in against the other asks of the facility’s. Well how about a hybrid solution? To the left of the training pitches there is a what looks like derelict building on some derelict ground - buy that and have 2 trading pitches which are exclusively used by HMFC and rent the pre existing fantastic facilities available to us today. Maybe overtime we can continue to buy surrounding ground and develop a fully owned training ground (if that’s still our ambition)

 

Developing any space next to it would seem the best solution.

 

[Sooks]

Just now, A_A wehatethehibs said:

“For me personally having your own training ground is crucial for the personal development of your players. Going forward we would love to have our own training ground…“

 

- Joe Savage 

 

Definitely get the impression Savage is a driving force behind this because it was never even mentioned during the Levein days 

 

He definitely is 

[Sooks]

16 minutes ago, Clerry Jambo said:

Is the whole 2nd floor not needing done?

I read that we were waiting until the money for that was in place and that it now was

[Footballfirst]

7 hours ago, Arfur said:

 Well how about a hybrid solution? To the left of the training pitches there is a what looks like derelict building on some derelict ground - buy that and have 2 trading pitches which are exclusively used by HMFC and rent the pre existing fantastic facilities available to us today. Maybe overtime we can continue to buy surrounding ground and develop a fully owned training ground (if that’s still our ambition)

The "derelict" building you refer to is definitely not derelict. It is used by the University to house its site maintenance vehicles and machinery.  The adjacent car park is also extensively used by students and staff during term time so would not be available.

 

3 hours ago, A_A wehatethehibs said:

......... there is zero incentive for the Oriam to have Hearts there. So rent will be going up, to ensure it’s profitable not loss-making for HWU.

 

It was part of the business case for the development of the Oriam that it would be the training base for a Premiership club. If Hearts left, it would create a hole in their finances. Perhaps Hibs would be interested if Ron G saw an opportunity to develop East Mains for other purposes.

 

However, I would expect the rent to rise should Hearts seek to extend the lease.  The annual cost (including increases) was set at the start of the lease and was renewed when we exited administration. The facilities available to Hearts have improved since the Oriam opened, new weights room, astro surface upgraded, outdoor covered seating installed.

[sac]

Spend the £20m on increasing our capacity as that will repay itself longer term.

Let them walk to Roseburn park carrying their own boots like their predecessors. 

[Rudi5kaceldream1ng]

I 100% don't support this. 

 

It's a sign of needless spending and the sort of stuff that would fit well in a "how it all went wrong for hearts" story.. 

 

Well **** that! As long as I live its not going to go wrong ever again so you can shove the idea of a massive expense on a training facility we don't even need up your ar*****e. 

[Unknown user]

1 minute ago, Rudi5kaceldream1ng said:

I 100% don't support this. 

 

It's a sign of needless spending and the sort of stuff that would fit well in a "how it all went wrong for hearts" story.. 

 

Well **** that! As long as I live its not going to go wrong ever again so you can shove the idea of a massive expense on a training facility we don't even need up your ar*****e. 

You're a bit more direct than me but pretty much this. Let's just focus our attention and resources on building a team to win the league before my old man goes

[gashauskis9]

There’s a site across the road that’ll be available soon 😢

[Pasquale for King]

51 minutes ago, gashauskis9 said:

There’s a site across the road that’ll be available soon 😢

Student flats I reckon. 

[Broxburn Jambo]

This corrupt CLOWNCIL, will let us buy Saughton  if we pay them enough, they have been selling playing fields for years

[Unknown user]

21 minutes ago, Broxburn Jambo said:

This corrupt CLOWNCIL, will let us buy Saughton  if we pay them enough, they have been selling playing fields for years

No no no it's land of milk and honey now, it's a unionist council.

[WheatfieldWarrior]

18 minutes ago, Smithee said:

No no no it's land of milk and honey now, it's a unionist council.

 

Well at least our staff at Tynecastle won't be charged £500 / year to park their car at work.