Potential new training facilities.

[OTT]

Saw this article on the EEN

 

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/football/hearts/exclusive-hearts-ps20m-plan-for-a-new-training-ground-explained-by-chief-executive-andrew-mckinlay-3708372

 

Pretty interesting, obviously potentially more than £20m on training facilities is a pretty big expense. I wonder if there is scope for more flexibility at Oriam. My understanding was that the lease is around £400k pa. 

 

Looking at rivals training grounds:

 

Aberdeen spent £14m (2019)

Hibs spent £5m (2007)

Celtic £8m (2007)

Rangers £14m (2001)

 

Obviously aiming for more than a Hibs style cow shed, but if it happens it will be interesting as to what we end up with. I would hope the target would be facilities of a similar standard to the OF/whats currently on offer at Riccarton. Seem to remember a lot of the players noting how impressed they've been with our current facilities. 

[August Landmesser]

Interesting stuff, incidentally the Oriam cost £33m back in 2015/16, but I guess we only use bits of it and there's loads of stuff there we don't need

[kingantti1874]

Waste of money imo. Rent the oriam for 40 years for that 

[Bazzas right boot]

2 minutes ago, kingantti1874 said:

Waste of money imo. Rent the oriam for 40 years for that 

 

 

Or take a mortgage type loan and own it 🤷‍♂️

[August Landmesser]

There's a very good argument to be made for owning our training ground though; total control, no worries over double-booking or potential disputes with the landlord, can redesign it whenever we want, and it would be a bespoke facility suitable for HMFC rather than Heriot Watt uni

[Jambo92]

All for the plan to be put in place but would be silly to spend money at this point, economically its not a valuable asset.  Training grounds land is typically worth peanuts due to location.  

Investment should be into the first team and Youth teams for the next 5 years to establish ourselves as at least the 3rd force in the country.

[August Landmesser]

Could also be that AM has made our plans public in order to focus minds at the Oriam and make them think about possibly being more accommodating...

[PaddysBar]

Sounded to me more like a shot across the bows to HW/Oriam to me ‘we’ve told you we want more exclusivity, if we don’t get that we’ll look elsewhere, but the door’s not closed’. 

[Winstons Da]

36 minutes ago, August Landmesser said:

Could also be that AM has made our plans public in order to focus minds at the Oriam and make them think about possibly being more accommodating...

What do you want for £400k a year?

 

Say £8m to build a facility. That’s 20 years rent, probably double that with finance costs. Then ongoing running costs.

 

Fantasy land at the moment for Hearts. 

[kingantti1874]

1 hour ago, Bazzas right boot said:

 

 

Or take a mortgage type loan and own it 🤷‍♂️

for what purpose? Inferior facilities at a huge cost? If we borrow £20million it will of course cost a lot more over the term of the loan. 

 

tbh  I think this is nothing more than a negotiating position with the oriam 

Edited May 25, 2022 by kingantti1874

[pettigrewsstylist]

Putting pressure on Oriam IMO.

[PaddysBar]

26 minutes ago, Winstons Da said:

What do you want for £400k a year?

 

Say £8m to build a facility. That’s 20 years rent, probably double that with finance costs. Then ongoing running costs.

 

Fantasy land at the moment for Hearts. 

Kind of agree but over 7 years our own facility at £20m isn’t fantasy land given FOH and the benefactors. 

[Cruyff]

If we can get a new training ground, it's another piece of real estate to add to our assets.

 

At some point Riccarton will be past its sell by date and if we own the land on which our training facilities sit, it allows us to future proof the club. 

 

If we can do it, then we should. 

[Waterboy]

1 hour ago, August Landmesser said:

Could also be that AM has made our plans public in order to focus minds at the Oriam and make them think about possibly being more accommodating...

 

This.

[jr ewing]

1 hour ago, kingantti1874 said:

Waste of money imo. Rent the oriam for 40 years for that 

Agreed 👍 

[OTT]

31 minutes ago, Cruyff said:

If we can get a new training ground, it's another piece of real estate to add to our assets.

 

At some point Riccarton will be past its sell by date and if we own the land on which our training facilities sit, it allows us to future proof the club. 

 

If we can do it, then we should. 

 

This is sort of where I'm landing. Could really build facilities that suit the clubs needs to a tee. 

 

I suppose there is maybe a happy medium to be struck, perhaps a shorter term lease at Oriam (say 10 years) to deal with the immediate issues around where we're going to be training in the future to allow us to invest more into the team in the hope that this breeds success allowing us to generate more money. Ultimately, we don't want to be hamstrung paying off a huge training ground cost whilst trying to remain competitive. The team would feel the pinch IMO.

 

There are fields around it, I wonder if there is any scope to invest in the facilities to take some ownership? Allow us to introduce our own facilities in conjunction with what is already there. 

 

Accessibility is clearly an issue though, and if its interrupting what we can and can't do with the team then clearly something needs to change.  

 

Full confidence in McKinlay and Budge to come up with something that works. 

[OTT]

1 hour ago, Bazzas right boot said:

 

 

Or take a mortgage type loan and own it 🤷‍♂️

 

The new stand cost around £20m didn't it? That was funded without the need to take on a mortgage. So if it can be done for the stand, I wonder if similar arrangements could be made for training facilities?

 

A combination of club funds, competition prize money, benefactor money, FOH donations and a small loan could probably get it done. Obviously, as others point out, is it worth spending that kind of money for something which doesn't appear to be revenue generating (unlike the stadium where increased capacity, hospitality facilities, lower maintenance costs ect can be justifiable reasons to spend this kind of money).

[Humblerogue]

Gullane beach is free! A bit chilly in the winter mind. 
 

would prefer we invest in the playing squad,  as I don’t think investing this amount of money in a training facility benefit's the players at this level much. 

[Debut 4]

If our trusted experts in charge of the club know what they are doing, why the worry?

 

If it doesn’t impact on the playing side I don’t see a problem?   Maybe it will be a joint financial venture? 

[Finlay James]

Pinkie or GTF

[Bungalow Bill]

Sounds like we need to get round the table and negotiate with HWU. Is there space for an exclusive pitch to be put in place purely for us?

[PapaShango]

Ann Budge did mention this at one of the FOH Plot Ceremonies when I was there. She said our lease with HWU runs to 2029 and we were looking at other feasible options including our own training ground. It would make sense to have our own facilities if it works financially for us in the long term. Having decent facilities can be a massive selling point for any potential new signings as well. 

[A_A wehatethehibs]

Sounds to me like the decision is made. This is recurring noise now. We’re aiming to be leaving the Oriam in 7 years time at the end of the lease IMO. And we’re shopping for land. 
 

If those running the club think that’s in the long term interest, then so be it. It’s about the long run. I would see no reason to disagree.

Say what you want about East Mains, Hibs training ground is bought and paid for. Whereas we’re paying what, a player or 2’s worth of wages a season rent? Every season? it adds up. When you look at it that way you see why it comes onto the agenda, given the fine margins in football. 
 

Paying rent, end of the day, that’s not investment, it’s money going out of the club into someone else’s pockets in perpetuity. And we are at the mercy of a landlord, with nowhere else to

turn. A parasite wanting to leech off the clubs economic productivity. The owners of Oriam have used Hearts revenues to borrow the money to build themselves a prime facility. We could’ve used those revenues to build ourselves that same facility. And what have we got out of it? A perpetual rent increase and we have to compete against uni 5 aside teams to book pitches? It’s embarrassing to be frank. 

 

The hard thing to do, is to go one better than Hibs. Beat them on location. That’s one of the big major pros Oriam offers which players will factor in today given the choice between Hearts and Hibs. Young players want to live in or close to the big city not out in fecking Ormiston / Tranent. Location, that’s a big thing for attracting players. So that makes this whole idea quite difficult.
 

Wherever we go is probably going to be a downgrade in the location aspect.

 

But the thing about it is, with the growth of Edinburgh, the price of good location flat land ain’t about to go down in price. We spend the next 40 years renting as suggested above, and when we look for land again, we’ll be shopping down in the Borders or in Fife. For that reason I would say if the club has the money and the opportunity, then it’s a must. 

 

 

[oxfordman]

24 minutes ago, A_A wehatethehibs said:

Sounds to me like the decision is made. This is recurring noise now. We’re aiming to be leaving the Oriam in 7 years time at the end of the lease IMO. And we’re shopping for land. 
 

If those running the club think that’s in the long term interest, then so be it. It’s about the long run. I would see no reason to disagree.

Say what you want about East Mains, Hibs training ground is bought and paid for. Whereas we’re paying what, a player or 2’s worth of wages a season rent? Every season? it adds up. When you look at it that way you see why it comes onto the agenda, given the fine margins in football. 
 

Paying rent, end of the day, that’s not investment, it’s money going out of the club into someone else’s pockets in perpetuity. And we are at the mercy of a landlord, with nowhere else to

turn. A parasite wanting to leech off the clubs economic productivity. The owners of Oriam have used Hearts revenues to borrow the money to build themselves a prime facility. We could’ve used those revenues to build ourselves that same facility. And what have we got out of it? A perpetual rent increase and we have to compete against uni 5 aside teams to book pitches? It’s embarrassing to be frank. 

 

The hard thing to do, is to go one better than Hibs. Beat them on location. That’s one of the big major pros Oriam offers which players will factor in today given the choice between Hearts and Hibs. Young players want to live in or close to the big city not out in fecking Ormiston / Tranent. Location, that’s a big thing for attracting players. So that makes this whole idea quite difficult.
 

Wherever we go is probably going to be a downgrade in the location aspect.

 

But the thing about it is, with the growth of Edinburgh, the price of good location flat land ain’t about to go down in price. We spend the next 40 years renting as suggested above, and when we look for land again, we’ll be shopping down in the Borders or in Fife. For that reason I would say if the club has the money and the opportunity, then it’s a must. 

 

 

This is true, and I'm in no way disagreeing with you but bought and paid for doesn't necessarily mean cost-free; there'll be all sorts of running costs I imagine: staff, maintenance and upkeep of equipment etc, future upgrades of facilities/equipment, business rates or ground rent or whatever they pay. 

[lost in space]

28 minutes ago, A_A wehatethehibs said:

Sounds to me like the decision is made. This is recurring noise now. We’re aiming to be leaving the Oriam in 7 years time at the end of the lease IMO. And we’re shopping for land. 
 

If those running the club think that’s in the long term interest, then so be it. It’s about the long run. I would see no reason to disagree.

Say what you want about East Mains, Hibs training ground is bought and paid for. Whereas we’re paying what, a player or 2’s worth of wages a season rent? Every season? it adds up. When you look at it that way you see why it comes onto the agenda, given the fine margins in football. 
 

Paying rent, end of the day, that’s not investment, it’s money going out of the club into someone else’s pockets in perpetuity. And we are at the mercy of a landlord, with nowhere else to

turn. A parasite wanting to leech off the clubs economic productivity. The owners of Oriam have used Hearts revenues to borrow the money to build themselves a prime facility. We could’ve used those revenues to build ourselves that same facility. And what have we got out of it? A perpetual rent increase and we have to compete against uni 5 aside teams to book pitches? It’s embarrassing to be frank. 

 

The hard thing to do, is to go one better than Hibs. Beat them on location. That’s one of the big major pros Oriam offers which players will factor in today given the choice between Hearts and Hibs. Young players want to live in or close to the big city not out in fecking Ormiston / Tranent. Location, that’s a big thing for attracting players. So that makes this whole idea quite difficult.
 

Wherever we go is probably going to be a downgrade in the location aspect.

 

But the thing about it is, with the growth of Edinburgh, the price of good location flat land ain’t about to go down in price. We spend the next 40 years renting as suggested above, and when we look for land again, we’ll be shopping down in the Borders or in Fife. For that reason I would say if the club has the money and the opportunity, then it’s a must. 

 

 

I dont disagree with your post but there is advantages to renting/leasing.

Hearts may be paying £400k per year - but hobos will also have bills to pay.

By paying the rent, I presume this covers taxes / power/ maintenance/ wages (for security/grass cutting/repairs etc).

It makes sense if we share costs with HW - as long as the rent is not too high.

As you have mentioned - not easy to find available flat land near Edinburgh at a price we can afford.

I hope we can re-negotiate with HW - it should be better for both HW and ourselves.

[PapaShango]

37 minutes ago, A_A wehatethehibs said:

Sounds to me like the decision is made. This is recurring noise now. We’re aiming to be leaving the Oriam in 7 years time at the end of the lease IMO. And we’re shopping for land. 
 

If those running the club think that’s in the long term interest, then so be it. It’s about the long run. I would see no reason to disagree.

Say what you want about East Mains, Hibs training ground is bought and paid for. Whereas we’re paying what, a player or 2’s worth of wages a season rent? Every season? it adds up. When you look at it that way you see why it comes onto the agenda, given the fine margins in football. 
 

Paying rent, end of the day, that’s not investment, it’s money going out of the club into someone else’s pockets in perpetuity. And we are at the mercy of a landlord, with nowhere else to

turn. A parasite wanting to leech off the clubs economic productivity. The owners of Oriam have used Hearts revenues to borrow the money to build themselves a prime facility. We could’ve used those revenues to build ourselves that same facility. And what have we got out of it? A perpetual rent increase and we have to compete against uni 5 aside teams to book pitches? It’s embarrassing to be frank. 

 

The hard thing to do, is to go one better than Hibs. Beat them on location. That’s one of the big major pros Oriam offers which players will factor in today given the choice between Hearts and Hibs. Young players want to live in or close to the big city not out in fecking Ormiston / Tranent. Location, that’s a big thing for attracting players. So that makes this whole idea quite difficult.
 

Wherever we go is probably going to be a downgrade in the location aspect.

 

But the thing about it is, with the growth of Edinburgh, the price of good location flat land ain’t about to go down in price. We spend the next 40 years renting as suggested above, and when we look for land again, we’ll be shopping down in the Borders or in Fife. For that reason I would say if the club has the money and the opportunity, then it’s a must. 

 

 

I think there is plenty of land to the West of the city to be had and don't think location too far out will put players off. Celtic for example, their training base is well out of Glasgow.

[kingantti1874]

57 minutes ago, A_A wehatethehibs said:

Sounds to me like the decision is made. This is recurring noise now. We’re aiming to be leaving the Oriam in 7 years time at the end of the lease IMO. And we’re shopping for land. 
 

If those running the club think that’s in the long term interest, then so be it. It’s about the long run. I would see no reason to disagree.

Say what you want about East Mains, Hibs training ground is bought and paid for. Whereas we’re paying what, a player or 2’s worth of wages a season rent? Every season? it adds up. When you look at it that way you see why it comes onto the agenda, given the fine margins in football. 
 

Paying rent, end of the day, that’s not investment, it’s money going out of the club into someone else’s pockets in perpetuity. And we are at the mercy of a landlord, with nowhere else to

turn. A parasite wanting to leech off the clubs economic productivity. The owners of Oriam have used Hearts revenues to borrow the money to build themselves a prime facility. We could’ve used those revenues to build ourselves that same facility. And what have we got out of it? A perpetual rent increase and we have to compete against uni 5 aside teams to book pitches? It’s embarrassing to be frank. 

 

The hard thing to do, is to go one better than Hibs. Beat them on location. That’s one of the big major pros Oriam offers which players will factor in today given the choice between Hearts and Hibs. Young players want to live in or close to the big city not out in fecking Ormiston / Tranent. Location, that’s a big thing for attracting players. So that makes this whole idea quite difficult.
 

Wherever we go is probably going to be a downgrade in the location aspect.

 

But the thing about it is, with the growth of Edinburgh, the price of good location flat land ain’t about to go down in price. We spend the next 40 years renting as suggested above, and when we look for land again, we’ll be shopping down in the Borders or in Fife. For that reason I would say if the club has the money and the opportunity, then it’s a must. 

 

 

the running costs at eats mains are higher than our rent.  Benefit is they have exclusive use.. negative is it’s a vastly inferior facility.

 

sounds to me like a negotiation. Why would the oriam choose to lose that income. Doesn’t make sense.  It’s a “give us decent terms” or we will do our own thing threat

Edited May 26, 2022 by kingantti1874

[Howdy Doody Jambo]

What's wrong with the player's changing at Tynecaste in the morning then running round to Roseburn, Saughton or Harrison Park it was good enough when we had good successful teams in the 50s and 60s 

[A_A wehatethehibs]

23 minutes ago, kingantti1874 said:

the running costs at eats mains are higher than our rent.  Benefit is they have exclusive use.. negative is it’s a vastly inferior facility.

 

sounds to me like a negotiation. Why would the oriam choose to lose that income. Doesn’t make sense.  It’s a “give us decent terms” or we will do our own thing threat

Yes but whatever the figures are, that rent was from 25 years ago 

 

You can bet they will be needing to increase it substantially as it’s very possible they are losing a significant amount of money, if we are paying less rent than the facility costs to upkeep and run.

 

In which case, if they are so totally dependent on Hearts and ****ed if we leave, I wonder how out of the question for us to be negotiating to actually buy the Oriam? So we can dictate our exclusive use of it, but then still offer it out to the other lesser sports organisations. 
 

It just doesn’t make sense that we are the tenant in this situation if it’s our revenues propping up the whole show. We should be the landlord. Maybe HWU would be open to selling. It doesn’t seem

realistic given the up front cost so you could be right about the negotiation for better terms. But for me it’s the recurring noise aspect that just makes me think, behind closed doors, the decisions been made that the club wants its own facility and to be its own landlord. 

Edited May 26, 2022 by A_A wehatethehibs

[Sooks]

It reads to me like we are asking Oriam to consider the value of having us on site and I think we want to build something there that we own rather than go else where

[A_A wehatethehibs]

The particular thing which stuck out to  me was the quip about any Jambo farmer / landowners out there. That to me was as good as asking people to pick up the phone 

[Sooks]

1 minute ago, A_A wehatethehibs said:

The particular thing which stuck out to  me was the quip about any Jambo farmer / landowners out there. That to me was as good as asking people to pick up the phone 

 

I wonder if the fields around Oriam are owned by just such a person

[zakred]

17 minutes ago, Sooks said:

 

I wonder if the fields around Oriam are owned by just such a person

You are quite right, but I think he wants it for housing.

[Sooks]

Just now, zakred said:

You are quite right, but I think he wants it for housing.

 

Thought there was a bit of sub text there cheers :- )

[tynewater]

1 hour ago, The Maroon Pound said:

What's wrong with the player's changing at Tynecaste in the morning then running round to Roseburn, Saughton or Harrison Park it was good enough when we had good successful teams in the 50s and 60s 

I think the modern player isn't so keen on dodging dog turds when training. 

[john thomas]

13 hours ago, Winstons Da said:

What do you want for £400k a year?

 

Say £8m to build a facility. That’s 20 years rent, probably double that with finance costs. Then ongoing running costs.

 

Fantasy land at the moment for Hearts. 

Don't think Budge and company do fantasy type planning .

Vlad and Robinson ? Different story

[John Findlay]

1 hour ago, A_A wehatethehibs said:

Yes but whatever the figures are, that rent was from 25 years ago 

 

You can bet they will be needing to increase it substantially as it’s very possible they are losing a significant amount of money, if we are paying less rent than the facility costs to upkeep and run.

 

In which case, if they are so totally dependent on Hearts and ****ed if we leave, I wonder how out of the question for us to be negotiating to actually buy the Oriam? So we can dictate our exclusive use of it, but then still offer it out to the other lesser sports organisations. 
 

It just doesn’t make sense that we are the tenant in this situation if it’s our revenues propping up the whole show. We should be the landlord. Maybe HWU would be open to selling. It doesn’t seem

realistic given the up front cost so you could be right about the negotiation for better terms. But for me it’s the recurring noise aspect that just makes me think, behind closed doors, the decisions been made that the club wants its own facility and to be its own landlord. 

We can't buy the Oriam, it is officially Scotland's national facility of sporting excellence. That is why the likes of the Scottish national football teams use it, Scotland's national rugby team(s), Hockey teams, basketball teams etc etc.

[Sooks]

13 hours ago, Winstons Da said:

What do you want for £400k a year?

 

Say £8m to build a facility. That’s 20 years rent, probably double that with finance costs. Then ongoing running costs.

 

Fantasy land at the moment for Hearts. 

 

Why would it be fantasy land we are in good shape financially and other clubs have done just that Hibs even ripped off the tax payer on the mortgage for theirs

[King Of The Cat Cafe]

We could offer Ron Gordon £20m for a little-used piece of land he owns at Easter Road...🤑

[Arfur]

The facilities at Oriam are meant to be fantastic but I believe that the issue is that we don’t have exclusive use so if any additional training is required we need to book it in against the other asks of the facility’s. Well how about a hybrid solution? To the left of the training pitches there is a what looks like derelict building on some derelict ground - buy that and have 2 trading pitches which are exclusively used by HMFC and rent the pre existing fantastic facilities available to us today. Maybe overtime we can continue to buy surrounding ground and develop a fully owned training ground (if that’s still our ambition)

[milky_26]

39 minutes ago, King Of The Cat Cafe said:

We could offer Ron Gordon £20m for a little-used piece of land he owns at Easter Road...🤑

The decontamination would cost us billions

[jamboinglasgow]

I do think we are serious in looking at our own training ground. But I also think we are pushing Oriam to get more exclusive access under a new lease. So we are prepared to go either way for which gives us the best option.

[kingantti1874]

2 hours ago, A_A wehatethehibs said:

Yes but whatever the figures are, that rent was from 25 years ago 

 

You can bet they will be needing to increase it substantially as it’s very possible they are losing a significant amount of money, if we are paying less rent than the facility costs to upkeep and run.

 

In which case, if they are so totally dependent on Hearts and ****ed if we leave, I wonder how out of the question for us to be negotiating to actually buy the Oriam? So we can dictate our exclusive use of it, but then still offer it out to the other lesser sports organisations. 
 

It just doesn’t make sense that we are the tenant in this situation if it’s our revenues propping up the whole show. We should be the landlord. Maybe HWU would be open to selling. It doesn’t seem

realistic given the up front cost so you could be right about the negotiation for better terms. But for me it’s the recurring noise aspect that just makes me think, behind closed doors, the decisions been made that the club wants its own facility and to be its own landlord. 

that’s a good idea. £10mill to buy 50% of the facility. We have priority access and receive 50% of income

[kingantti1874]

1 hour ago, John Findlay said:

We can't buy the Oriam, it is officially Scotland's national facility of sporting excellence. That is why the likes of the Scottish national football teams use it, Scotland's national rugby team(s), Hockey teams, basketball teams etc etc.

it’s just a business like any other.  Of course we could but a piece.  Of course those teams would require priority access also but the football national team rarely use it preferring to stay in Glasgow 

[John Findlay]

1 minute ago, kingantti1874 said:

it’s just a business like any other.  Of course we could but a piece.  Of course those teams would require priority access also but the football national team rarely use it preferring to stay in Glasgow 

I think you will find that national football team constantly use it now.

[kingantti1874]

3 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

I think you will find that national football team constantly use it now.

Ok They never used to. Still wouldn’t preclude selling a share of the facility. I’m sure hearts would be happy to work around such demands.  
 

I do think it unlikely, but I also do think it would maybe present a great solution for all involved

[Sooks]

31 minutes ago, jamboinglasgow said:

I do think we are serious in looking at our own training ground. But I also think we are pushing Oriam to get more exclusive access under a new lease. So we are prepared to go either way for which gives us the best option.

 

Or both I reckon 

[jamboinglasgow]

43 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

I think you will find that national football team constantly use it now.

 

Yup, it was Strachan who didn't use it because he likes staying in a fancy hotel  and just get the players to train on a grass pitch outside rather than a purpose built facility designed to get the most out of the players.

[Samuel Camazzola]

Does the club own a stake in the facilities out at Heriot Watt? I'm sure when we first moved into there, the club contributed a couple of million (from SMG money) to develop some of the place. 

[Armageddon]

If we are paying a wad to Orium then we can easily pay a wad to James Anderson to rent something off him.

 

I also think we need out own branded team coach, I like that sort of s**t.