Pro-Independence and Pro-Brexit

[Highlander]

In 2014, I voted Yes to Scottish independence and, in 2016, to leave the European Union and am what some politely describe as "a double ooter". I regret neither and would vote similarly again given the chance.

 

Without intending to start a debate on the merits or demerits of said position, I wonder if there are any others of a similar perspective?

[Jambo_jim2001]

[redjambo]

I was a double inner, but I regret the first choice now.

[ri Alban]

22 minutes ago, Highlander said:

In 2014, I voted Yes to Scottish independence and, in 2016, to leave the European Union and am what some politely describe as "a double ooter". I regret neither and would vote similarly again given the chance.

 

Without intending to start a debate on the merits or demerits of said position, I wonder if there are any others of a similar perspective?

Logical. Naw and leave is a just ...Well I'll no tell you my actual thoughts about them.

[Maple Leaf]

30 minutes ago, Highlander said:

In 2014, I voted Yes to Scottish independence and, in 2016, to leave the European Union and am what some politely describe as "a double ooter". I regret neither and would vote similarly again given the chance.

 

Without intending to start a debate on the merits or demerits of said position, I wonder if there are any others of a similar perspective?

 

Really? 

[dobmisterdobster]

What's the point? Both of these votes are in the past.

Debating them doesn't achieve anything.

[Alex Kintner]

1 hour ago, Highlander said:

In 2014, I voted Yes to Scottish independence and, in 2016, to leave the European Union and am what some politely describe as "a double ooter". I regret neither and would vote similarly again given the chance.

 

Without intending to start a debate on the merits or demerits of said position, I wonder if there are any others of a similar perspective?

I voted the same but for totally different reasons. My Leave vote was tactical.

[Ainsley Harriott]

I voted no in 2014 and leave in 2016🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧

[FWJ]

19 hours ago, Alex Kintner said:

I voted the same but for totally different reasons. My Leave vote was tactical.

I might be a bit stupid here, but I can’t see how a tactical vote would work in a simple yes/no question?

[milky_26]

11 minutes ago, FWJ said:

I might be a bit stupid here, but I can’t see how a tactical vote would work in a simple yes/no question?

I would imagine it is vote to leave in the hope that the UK left the EU. Then the leaving of the EU would push more people who voted to remain in the UK in the Scottish independence referendum to change their minds and vote for Scottish independence possibly in the hope that Scotland would end up back in the EU

[milky_26]

21 hours ago, Highlander said:

In 2014, I voted Yes to Scottish independence and, in 2016, to leave the European Union and am what some politely describe as "a double ooter". I regret neither and would vote similarly again given the chance.

 

Without intending to start a debate on the merits or demerits of said position, I wonder if there are any others of a similar perspective?

I can at least understand that. As your votes suggest that you want neither the rest of the UK or Europe to have any control over Scotland 

[Alex Kintner]

8 minutes ago, milky_26 said:

I would imagine it is vote to leave in the hope that the UK left the EU. Then the leaving of the EU would push more people who voted to remain in the UK in the Scottish independence referendum to change their minds and vote for Scottish independence possibly in the hope that Scotland would end up back in the EU

 

 

 

[FWJ]

25 minutes ago, Alex Kintner said:

 

 

 

I didn’t think of that.

Bit risky!

[Des Lynam]

22 minutes ago, milky_26 said:

I would imagine it is vote to leave in the hope that the UK left the EU. Then the leaving of the EU would push more people who voted to remain in the UK in the Scottish independence referendum to change their minds and vote for Scottish independence possibly in the hope that Scotland would end up back in the EU

At least that kind of tactical vote would mean the SNP would have to address the currency issue. I personally can’t see people in this country voting to use the Euro as our own money.  

[Alex Kintner]

43 minutes ago, FWJ said:

I didn’t think of that.

Bit risky!

Not really. It became clear that in essence there were two votes: one in Scotland and one in wider UK. It was always going to be a comfortable Stay vote in Scotland so my vote not really going to matter much. The wider UK vote was much closer so lended my vote to Leave to help push them over the line and make the case for Scottish Independence even stronger.

[Nucky Thompson]

Brilliant. Voting for Brexit was a tactical masterplan by SNP supporters 

 

[redjambo]

2 hours ago, Des Lynam said:

At least that kind of tactical vote would mean the SNP would have to address the currency issue. I personally can’t see people in this country voting to use the Euro as our own money.  

 

I would have no problem with the Euro as our currency, Des.

[ri Alban]

1 hour ago, Nucky Thompson said:

Brilliant. Voting for Brexit was a tactical masterplan by SNP supporters 

 

I voted remain to trigger a new indeyref, because (and you can check) I knew England would vote to leave. And it worked.

 

 

Tick Tock!!!

 

[ri Alban]

1 hour ago, redjambo said:

 

I would have no problem with the Euro as our currency, Des.

Scots pound or Dollar. People won't give a shite soon as everyone will just swipe.

[EIEIO]

I vote yes to independence and voted to remain in the EU. Nothing has happened since to change my mind. Though there is a certain irony in the Brexit fundamentalists being bought and sold for Russian gold and watching there pitiful attempts to clamp down on their Russian paymasters since the invasion of Ukraine. Farage (like Putin) actually claimed the Russians were doing it because of EU expansionism.

[ri Alban]

I have no problem with Leave voters from England. To vote no and leave is the mentality of a head injury.

[scott herbertson]

3 hours ago, Des Lynam said:

At least that kind of tactical vote would mean the SNP would have to address the currency issue. I personally can’t see people in this country voting to use the Euro as our own money.  

 

 

A big advantage using it, as far as I am concerned - can't see the downside and it seems to be used as one of those 'scare 'em' things (like losing the monarchy, getting nuked by Russia, Banks collapsing) but I have never seen the rationale against for an independent Scotland it explained.

[Alex Kintner]

2 hours ago, redjambo said:

 

I would have no problem with the Euro as our currency, Des.

Couldn’t give a monkeys what our currency is as long as we’re a self-governing nation freed from WM rule.

[Alex Kintner]

2 hours ago, jonesy said:

Not only is Alex more empathetic than everyone else, he’s also a better voter. Limitless talent.

Thanks Jonesy, you go too far ♥️

[Alex Kintner]

17 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Sorry, just noticed the bloody autocorrect on my original post. 
 

It should read “limited and talentless”.

 

😏

Your autocorrect knows the score 😉

[JudyJudyJudy]

7 hours ago, Nucky Thompson said:

Brilliant. Voting for Brexit was a tactical masterplan by SNP supporters 

 

Incredulous . To deliberately cause hardship to businesses and ruin peoples aspirations to live and work abroad just so they can then get an Indy vote which might not even be a yes ? Upside down disjointed thinking and lacking any empathy .   For the record yes in 2014 and it’ll be no the next time . Remain in 2016 . 

Edited March 3, 2022 by JamesM48

[Cruyff]

I voted yes last time, I voted to remain in Europe.

 

I would vote yes with the caveat that the SNP disappeared up their own erse as a consequence, and only if there was no other option to the status quo.

 

I don't believe in full Independence for a number of reasons, the main one being that we live on an Island, Currency and Defence should be shared. Therefore, full Independence should not be sought to after. Monetary policy should remain with the Central Bank and Defence Policy would be shared and should align. Imo the UK needs to change from the status quo and we need to move to something beyond a Federal System but short of Independence. That for me is a happy medium and a fair compromise. 

 

I don’t really give a shite about Brexit anymore and probably wouldn't vote to re join the EU in an Indy Scotland. I wouldn't be against it if it happened but I'd prefer a more bespoke trade agreement with the EU like Switzerland and Norway have. 

 

So yes, I have a different perspective. 

 

Edited March 4, 2022 by Cruyff

[Alex Kintner]

7 hours ago, Cruyff said:

I voted yes last time, I voted to remain in Europe.

 

I would vote yes with the caveat that the SNP disappeared up their own erse as a consequence, and only if there was no other option to the status quo.

 

I don't believe in full Independence for a number of reasons, the main one being that we live on an Island, Currency and Defence should be shared. Therefore, full Independence should not be sought to after. Monetary policy should remain with the Central Bank and Defence Policy would be shared and should align. Imo the UK needs to change from the status quo and we need to move to something beyond a Federal System but short of Independence. That for me is a happy medium and a fair compromise. 

 

I don’t really give a shite about Brexit anymore and probably wouldn't vote to re join the EU in an Indy Scotland. I wouldn't be against it if it happened but I'd prefer a more bespoke trade agreement with the EU like Switzerland and Norway have. 

 

So yes, I have a different perspective. 

 

You make a good point about the SNP and they would need to evolve. Right now they’re the vehicle to independence but in an independent Scotland there will be total freedom to vote for whichever party we think will run the country best without the constitutional question overshadowing everything. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

10 hours ago, Cruyff said:

I voted yes last time, I voted to remain in Europe.

 

I would vote yes with the caveat that the SNP disappeared up their own erse as a consequence, and only if there was no other option to the status quo.

 

I don't believe in full Independence for a number of reasons, the main one being that we live on an Island, Currency and Defence should be shared. Therefore, full Independence should not be sought to after. Monetary policy should remain with the Central Bank and Defence Policy would be shared and should align. Imo the UK needs to change from the status quo and we need to move to something beyond a Federal System but short of Independence. That for me is a happy medium and a fair compromise. 

 

I don’t really give a shite about Brexit anymore and probably wouldn't vote to re join the EU in an Indy Scotland. I wouldn't be against it if it happened but I'd prefer a more bespoke trade agreement with the EU like Switzerland and Norway have. 

 

So yes, I have a different perspective. 

 

👍

[Lone Striker]

19 hours ago, ri Alban said:

I voted remain to trigger a new indeyref, because (and you can check) I knew England would vote to leave. And it worked.

 

 

Tick Tock!!!

 

In what way did "it" work, ri ?

[Marvin]

Can't vote on indy (would have said no if I was eligible) and yes to Europe but I'm now against my second choice. 

[Highlander]

23 hours ago, milky_26 said:

I can at least understand that. As your votes suggest that you want neither the rest of the UK or Europe to have any control over Scotland 

 

 

23 hours ago, Des Lynam said:

At least that kind of tactical vote would mean the SNP would have to address the currency issue. I personally can’t see people in this country voting to use the Euro as our own money.  

Current polling suggests you are right Des. There is still a majority in Scotland who support remaining in the EU - although much lower than the 2016 vote - but support drops about 10 percentage points below a majority when people are asked if they would accept the euro as a currency, which has downsides. 
 

19 hours ago, scott herbertson said:

A big advantage using it, as far as I am concerned - can't see the downside and it seems to be used as one of those 'scare 'em' things (like losing the monarchy, getting nuked by Russia, Banks collapsing) but I have never seen the rationale against for an independent Scotland it explained.

There are upsides to the euro but some very significant downsides: 

1. The euro has always been a weaker currency. The current value of sterling to the euro is £1.21 to €1 = sterling is currently 21% stronger. 

2. The euro is a historically more turbulent currency because it is affected by political decisions and economic fluctuation in 27 other countries. 

3. The euro leaves you saddled with the European Central Bank (ECB), which wields greater decision-making power than the Bank of England. 

 

And downsides are even more accentuated by Scottish independence:

4. The ECB wields power over interest rates, monetary policy, spending levels and trade deals, none of which is economic independence. 

5. The purpose surely of becoming independent is to secure political and economic independence, which does not exist inside the EU. 
6. The trade deal issue is a very important one because 61% of Scotland's trade is with the UK and is integral to our economic resilience.  
 

13 hours ago, Cruyff said:

I voted yes last time, I voted to remain in Europe.

 

I would vote yes with the caveat that the SNP disappeared up their own erse as a consequence, and only if there was no other option to the status quo.

 

I don't believe in full Independence for a number of reasons, the main one being that we live on an Island, Currency and Defence should be shared. Therefore, full Independence should not be sought to after. Monetary policy should remain with the Central Bank and Defence Policy would be shared and should align. Imo the UK needs to change from the status quo and we need to move to something beyond a Federal System but short of Independence. That for me is a happy medium and a fair compromise. 

 

I don’t really give a shite about Brexit anymore and probably wouldn't vote to re join the EU in an Indy Scotland. I wouldn't be against it if it happened but I'd prefer a more bespoke trade agreement with the EU like Switzerland and Norway have. 

 

So yes, I have a different perspective. 

 

Agree wholeheartedly on your point re: the SNP. 

 

6 hours ago, Alex Kintner said:

You make a good point about the SNP and they would need to evolve. Right now they’re the vehicle to independence but in an independent Scotland there will be total freedom to vote for whichever party we think will run the country best without the constitutional question overshadowing everything. 

 

in my view, the SNP ceased to believe in independence around 2015, when their membership grew from around 25,000 to 114,000, their representation grew at Westminster from 6 to 56 MPs and they developed a vice-like grip over Scottish politics. They talk of independence periodically to shore up their core support but have, let's face it, achieved nothing in relation to a future referendum in the eight years since the last one. And it is for these reasons we now have Alex's Alba, who will probably dissolve shortly after 2024 when they lose their two MPs and are left with zero representation at all three tiers of elected office. 
 

 

[Alex Kintner]

38 minutes ago, Highlander said:

In my view, the SNP ceased to believe in independence around 2015, when their membership grew from around 25,000 to 114,000, their representation grew at Westminster from 6 to 56 MPs and they developed a vice-like grip over Scottish politics. They talk of independence periodically to shore up their core support but have, let's face it, achieved nothing in relation to a future referendum in the eight years since the last one. And it is for these reasons we now have Alex's Alba, who will probably dissolve shortly after 2024 when they lose their two MPs and are left with zero representation at all three tiers of elected office. 

If that’s true then their membership will gradually dwindle back to where it was.

[scott herbertson]

2 hours ago, Highlander said:

 

 

Current polling suggests you are right Des. There is still a majority in Scotland who support remaining in the EU - although much lower than the 2016 vote - but support drops about 10 percentage points below a majority when people are asked if they would accept the euro as a currency, which has downsides. 
 

There are upsides to the euro but some very significant downsides: 

1. The euro has always been a weaker currency. The current value of sterling to the euro is £1.21 to €1 = sterling is currently 21% stronger. 

2. The euro is a historically more turbulent currency because it is affected by political decisions and economic fluctuation in 27 other countries. 

3. The euro leaves you saddled with the European Central Bank (ECB), which wields greater decision-making power than the Bank of England. 

 

And downsides are even more accentuated by Scottish independence:

4. The ECB wields power over interest rates, monetary policy, spending levels and trade deals, none of which is economic independence. 

5. The purpose surely of becoming independent is to secure political and economic independence, which does not exist inside the EU. 
6. The trade deal issue is a very important one because 61% of Scotland's trade is with the UK and is integral to our economic resilience.  
 

 

 

 

1. That is a meaningless statement. The starting point for the rate between the Euro  and the pound was not 1:1. Since 2000 the Euro has been FAR stronger than the pound

 

 

EUR GBP - Historical Annual Data
Year	Average Closing Price	Year Open	Year High	Year Low	Year Close	Annual % Change
2022	0.84	0.84	0.85	0.82	0.82	-2.04%
2021	0.86	0.89	0.91	0.84	0.84	-5.75%
2020	0.89	0.85	0.94	0.83	0.89	5.47%
2019	0.88	0.90	0.94	0.83	0.85	-6.06%
2018	0.88	0.89	0.91	0.86	0.90	1.42%
2017	0.88	0.85	0.93	0.84	0.89	4.05%
2016	0.82	0.74	0.91	0.73	0.85	15.81%
2015	0.73	0.78	0.78	0.69	0.74	-5.07%
2014	0.81	0.83	0.84	0.78	0.78	-6.39%
2013	0.85	0.81	0.87	0.81	0.83	2.09%
2012	0.81	0.83	0.85	0.78	0.81	-2.45%
2011	0.87	0.86	0.90	0.83	0.83	-2.87%
2010	0.86	0.90	0.91	0.81	0.86	-3.25%
2009	0.89	0.96	0.96	0.84	0.89	-7.30%
2008	0.80	0.74	0.97	0.74	0.96	30.09%
2007	0.68	0.67	0.74	0.66	0.73	9.05%
2006	0.68	0.69	0.70	0.67	0.67	-1.95%
2005	0.68	0.71	0.71	0.66	0.69	-2.66%
2004	0.68	0.70	0.71	0.66	0.71	0.04%
2003	0.69	0.65	0.72	0.65	0.71	8.48%
2002	0.63	0.62	0.65	0.61	0.65	6.39%
2001	0.62	0.63	0.64	0.60	0.61	-3.07%
2000	0.61	0.63	0.64	0.57	0.63	0.90%

 

 

2. Looking at the history of both currencies vs the dollar I can see little difference in their ups and downs. Now we are out of the EU I would expect the pound to be looked at with less confidence internationally than the Euro (simply because it is a smaller economy)  when the worlds economy goes through rough patches

 

3. Yes, and that makes it a better bet when times get rough - why is the ECB having more power worse than the Bank of England having more power?

 

 

 

4. The ECB wields power over interest rates, monetary policy, spending levels and trade deals, none of which is economic independence.  - same as Bank of England = no difference

 

5. The purpose surely of becoming independent is to secure political and economic independence, which does not exist inside the EU. No it isn't - it is to take some  decisions nationally and some collectively eg membership of collective arrangements like the EU, holding nuclear weapons, education, health, taxation. Happy to pool and have a say in strategic political issues, regulations, immigration and trade deals

6. The trade deal issue is a very important one because 61% of Scotland's trade is with the UK and is integral to our economic resilience.   The Euro as such has no impact on this ie it is not a currency matter. If we had a Scottish pound but were in the EU it would be the same as if we had the Euro (probably slightly worse as English and Wales and NI businesses will have paperwork and procedures for the Euro.

Edited March 4, 2022 by scott herbertson

[Ulysses]

7 hours ago, Highlander said:

 

 

1. The euro has always been a weaker currency. The current value of sterling to the euro is £1.21 to €1 = sterling is currently 21% stronger. 

 

 

 

 

With.  All. Due. Respect.

 

What in the name of Jesus, Mary and the wee donkey does this even mean? 

 

Before Cyprus adopted the euro, its currency traded at above parity with Sterling, i.e. one Cypriot pound was worth more than one UK pound, sometimes as high as £1.50.  In the 20 years before Cyprus switched to the euro, the Cypriot pound and the Pound sterling were at parity for about 10 days - the rest of the time, your pound wouldn't buy you a Cyprus quid.

 

No-one, and I mean no-one, in their right mind would suggest for a nanosecond that the Cypriot currency was stronger than Sterling.

 

[doctor jambo]

Anyway  - anti independence and a remainer.

i have friends all

over the world and we are all the same.

I don’t believe I’m borders, nor nationalism .

not being divided and set against each other for the gains of the powerful.

I love people .

I am no different from my other friends 

[Roxy Hearts]

11 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

Anyway  - anti independence and a remainer.

i have friends all

over the world and we are all the same.

I don’t believe I’m borders, nor nationalism .

not being divided and set against each other for the gains of the powerful.

I love people .

I am no different from my other friends 

So there are no countries then? Can't understand your post? Scotland, England, Wales and NI are all countries with borders. All countries have borders and people are nationalitists as they believe in their nation apart from unionist Scots! 

[doctor jambo]

4 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

So there are no countries then? Can't understand your post? Scotland, England, Wales and NI are all countries with borders. All countries have borders and people are nationalitists as they believe in their nation apart from unionist Scots! 

I don’t . German Tunisian , Sri Lankan, all people want to live in peace.

Politicians create divide for their own ends  “ they are different”.

an eternal lie.

we are all racial *******s .

we have more in common than separates us .

what makes you different from the English / French / German apart from what you are fed by the politicos?

So why do you want to be apart from

your brothers?

[Alex Kintner]

Strap on your skis, Fonzie! 🦈

[Roxy Hearts]

12 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

I don’t . German Tunisian , Sri Lankan, all people want to live in peace.

Politicians create divide for their own ends  “ they are different”.

an eternal lie.

we are all racial *******s .

we have more in common than separates us .

what makes you different from the English / French / German apart from what you are fed by the politicos?

So why do you want to be apart from

your brothers?

Still don't get your post. We are culturally, linguistically, colour etc different from many countries. I'm not Welsh, English or NI and wouldn't want to be. They're not my brothers, I have my own brother and sisters! 

[Des Lynam]

 

 

57 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

 

i have friends all

over the world and we are all the same.

I don’t believe I’m borders, nor nationalism .

not being divided and set against each other for the gains of the powerful.

I love people .

I am no different from my other friends 

 

I agree.

 

I have friends (i hope they feel the same 😆) in countries over the world and ordinary hard working people wherever they are have the same wants, needs, aspirations, hopes, dreams etc. I'm patriotic when it comes to sport but that's about it. 

[Roxy Hearts]

2 minutes ago, Des Lynam said:

 

 

 

I agree.

 

I have friends (i hope they feel the same 😆) in countries over the world and ordinary hard working people wherever they are have the same wants, needs, aspirations, hopes, dreams etc. I'm patriotic when it comes to sport but that's about it. 

Those are human traits but national and cultural are different. I don't like Bollywood or Lederhosen for instance🤣

[Des Lynam]

3 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

Those are human traits but national and cultural are different. I don't like Bollywood or Lederhosen for instance🤣

 

That's stereotype views though. 

[Roxy Hearts]

1 minute ago, Des Lynam said:

 

That's stereotype views though. 

Just a wee joke Des. I cringe at stereotypical Scottish stuff! 

[Des Lynam]

1 minute ago, Roxy Hearts said:

Just a wee joke Des. I cringe at stereotypical Scottish stuff! 

 

Haha! Yeah i should lighten up. I fully agree with the second sentence. 

[Roxy Hearts]

1 minute ago, Des Lynam said:

 

Haha! Yeah i should lighten up. I fully agree with the second sentence. 

👍

[redjambo]

1 hour ago, doctor jambo said:

I don’t . German Tunisian , Sri Lankan, all people want to live in peace.

Politicians create divide for their own ends  “ they are different”.

an eternal lie.

we are all racial *******s .

we have more in common than separates us .

what makes you different from the English / French / German apart from what you are fed by the politicos?

So why do you want to be apart from

your brothers?

 

On the contrary. I want independence so that there's a good chance I can be back with my European brothers and sisters.

[jack D and coke]

Scotland joined the union to stop England inflicting anymore harm on us at the time. 
We stay in the union to stop England inflicting harm on us if we leave? 
I’d never not be Yes. Aye or die. 


 

Edited March 5, 2022 by jack D and coke

[jack D and coke]

[jack D and coke]

Almost forgot…**** the SNP🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿