VAR it definitely is not the answer

[mutley]

11 hours ago, D4nny_ said:

Think the incident with Morelos against Dortmund was the eye opener for me. If it’s getting single decisions like that wrong and not showing the ref all the angles then what’s the point.

Apparently the ref made the correct decision there. At the start of the season they were told if a player gets between another players backswing and the ball it’s a foul.

So although it’s a bullshit rule the ref called it correctly 

[Tommy Brown]

1 hour ago, jamboinglasgow said:

I used to be in favour of VAR, but after how it was implemented down in England I would rather not have it up here. One thing it does is take away the joy of celebrating a goal, the fact you could have it ruled out a minute later means you will always left with doubt and not celebrate as hard.  

Or sometimes 5 minutes 

[LarrysRightFoot]

1 minute ago, mutley said:

Apparently the ref made the correct decision there. At the start of the season they were told if a player gets between another players backswing and the ball it’s a foul.

So although it’s a bullshit rule the ref called it correctly 

That is another facet to the overall argument - wtf makes the rules? Changes now seem to be being made by someone who has never played or seen football before. 

[deejtee]

1 hour ago, jamboinglasgow said:

I used to be in favour of VAR, but after how it was implemented down in England I would rather not have it up here. One thing it does is take away the joy of celebrating a goal, the fact you could have it ruled out a minute later means you will always left with doubt and not celebrate as hard.  

Offset by watching the Hibs support seeing their last minute equaliser disallowed?

[Mikey1874]

2 hours ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

It's not the technology at fault. It's the muppets making or not making the decisions.

 

I think the challenge for Scotland is to look at England and how that could be improved.

 

The challenge for England is to get better cameras. Several decisions have just been guesses. But use the high resolution camera including the cricket hot spot etc.

 

How it's used in England is the onfield decision is paramount. So lots of penalties are not given and a few actually upheld because VAR says 'not a clear and obvious error'.  Scotland needs to review all these decisions are decide how it wants to go. 

 

But the clear offsides and violent fouls will improve the game here. 

[Baxfee]

Meanwhile the rugby world carry on with no issues. Then again the ref is respected. Football really needs to get a grip 

[benny]

Problem being they change the rules for var so you end up with a no clear and obvious error from the ref like yesterday's game.

They go by the short sleeve rule for handball so no 100% evidence comes into play like yesterday's game.

They would have went over the incident loads of time yesterday and still not 100% sure.

If the penalty was awarded they then would have to go back to see if an Everton player was in an offside position with his shot that brought about the penalty appeal in the first place.

[wavydavy]

4 minutes ago, Baxfee said:

Meanwhile the rugby world carry on with no issues. Then again the ref is respected. Football really needs to get a grip 

 

They still get it wrong sometimes but generally it is much better.

 

I think that is often helped by the fact especially in International Rugby that often the refs are from other other Countries so the liklihood of bias is probably diminished somewhat.

[benny]

Just now, wavydavy said:

 

They still get it wrong sometimes but generally it is much better.

 

I think that is often helped by the fact especially in International Rugby that often the refs are from other other Countries so the liklihood of bias is probably diminished somewhat.

Rugby players seem to not answer back like the football players.

[Marvin]

11 hours ago, geomac said:

it may not be the perfect answer but it is sooooo much better than the Sh!t we have, No?

 

Just stick with goal line tech. VAR is shite. Allow referees to make decisions for themselves even if they get it wrong. Decisions usually (when not against the OF) balance themselves over a season, 

[Sooperstar]

I'm absolutely certain that if VAR is brought into Scottish football then it will take 6 months max before most fans want it gone again.

[Mikey1874]

17 minutes ago, Marvin said:

 

Just stick with goal line tech. VAR is shite. Allow referees to make decisions for themselves even if they get it wrong. Decisions usually (when not against the OF) balance themselves over a season, 

 

What goals have we scored when player was offside (apart from Boyce cancelling out Celtic offside goal)? 

[wavydavy]

1 hour ago, benny said:

Rugby players seem to not answer back like the football players.

 

Having played the game myself I think that there are a number of answers for that.

 

The first and most crucial in my opinion is that the refs speak to the players giving them guidance on what they are expecting them to do with regards to their interpretation of the laws.

 

As with most laws they can be interpreted in different ways depending on which country you play the game in whcih may differ for example if you play your rugby in Edinburgh, compared to someone playing in France or Italy.

 

Some of the refs used in the International game are from the Southern Hemisphere Countries such as South Africa, Australia and New Zealand who have a slightly different approach to the refs in Europe so it is important that they say what they want from the players.

 

The refs will happily speak to the Captain's of the teams and explain why they have made a decision and they will get advice from their assistants (touch judges) and TMO to check for anything they have missed or if they are unsure about something.

 

They can also give penalties for back chat and increase the distance by a further ten metres if they see fit.

 

So a combination of all of these factors in my opinion is why there is very little back chat.

 

Mistakes can still be made but they are far less than we see in football.

[wavydavy]

32 minutes ago, Sooperstar said:

I'm absolutely certain that if VAR is brought into Scottish football then it will take 6 months max before most fans want it gone again.

 

It is only as good as those who review the footage.

 

An example yesterday is a perfect case as to how to get it spectacularly wrong in the Everton v Man City game.

 

Rodrigo clearly uses his arm to deflect the ball in the box and the ref and the VAR Official both get it wrong. Why is the vital question, only they know the answer.

 

Had Everton been playing Watford or some other team like that would they have made the same decision? 

[Percival King]

Surely it's a case of weighing up the positives VAR brings (e.g. more correct decisions) against the negatives (cost, delays in arriving at decisions (particularly goals)). We're not going to get rid of linesmen or referees just because they get some decisions wrong (but get most right). Football (though not necessarily in Scotland) has been willing to change and try to improve over the years but, as I said earlier, it's a journey of numerous steps/changes and that probably applies to the application if VAR. If people believe dodgy VAR officials will still be a barrier to getting some decisions right then at least VAR should shine a light on those decisions.

[Tom Hardy’s Dug]

It is part of the answer - it needs done properly of course.

[invernessjt]

14 hours ago, D4nny_ said:

Think the incident with Morelos against Dortmund was the eye opener for me. If it’s getting single decisions like that wrong and not showing the ref all the angles then what’s the point.

But that decision was correct. 

[Footballfirst]

Scotland's refs are continuing with their training.

 

 

[Tommy Brown]

On 27/02/2022 at 11:35, Marvin said:

 

Just stick with goal line tech. VAR is shite. Allow referees to make decisions for themselves even if they get it wrong. Decisions usually (when not against the OF) balance themselves over a season, 

 

Great Marvin, leave it up to the Ref..

 

Scottish football will be awash with West of Scotland referees catering for the OF.

 

Hold on a minute............

 

 

[Tasavallan]

VAR room at Hampden.  Only 6 persons allowed entry.  3 from Celtic and 3 from Rangers obviously.

[RobNox]

I'm in favour of VAR as a concept and to be fair, it has righted far more wrongs than would have been the case if it didn't exist.  However, it still comes down to the competence of the guy in the VAR room, and we've seen some horrendous decisions that are almost inexplicable, the latest being the clear handball in the City v Everton game.

 

My worry about introducing VAR in Scotland is that it won't balance decisions out evenly. 

 

Maybe VAR looks at the penalty incident last night against Aberdeen and decides that there was minimal contact and the Aberdeen player exaggerated things and took a dive so no penalty given.  But if the same incident happened against Rangers or Celtic, VAR would look the other way and allow the penalty to stand.  I also suspect that the West Coast VAR team would heavily look at any goal conceded by the arse cheeks to determine if there was any possible infringement by the opposing team in the 5 minutes leading up to the goal.

[OTT]

7 hours ago, RobNox said:

I'm in favour of VAR as a concept and to be fair, it has righted far more wrongs than would have been the case if it didn't exist.  However, it still comes down to the competence of the guy in the VAR room, and we've seen some horrendous decisions that are almost inexplicable, the latest being the clear handball in the City v Everton game.

 

My worry about introducing VAR in Scotland is that it won't balance decisions out evenly. 

 

Maybe VAR looks at the penalty incident last night against Aberdeen and decides that there was minimal contact and the Aberdeen player exaggerated things and took a dive so no penalty given.  But if the same incident happened against Rangers or Celtic, VAR would look the other way and allow the penalty to stand.  I also suspect that the West Coast VAR team would heavily look at any goal conceded by the arse cheeks to determine if there was any possible infringement by the opposing team in the 5 minutes leading up to the goal.

 

So am I, in Scottish terms my feeling is that we're throwing good money after bad. Not enough referees from the other parts of Scotland so there is no diversity. All of them west coast based and we've seen huge issues with having refs only from there a.) the standard isn't high enough b.) there are issues around impartiality. We need to increase the number of non-weeg cat 1 referees to create more competition which will increase the standards. 

 

Also don't like that a toe, or a 10th of a kneecap can be considered offside. Think UEFA/FIFA need to amend the rule to 'clear daylight with VAR its too pernickety and over officious which I think ruins the spectacle. 

[gordon simpson]

On 27/02/2022 at 08:37, ri Alban said:

Are all Masons Rangers fans?

no I am a big Hearts fan 

[Chillidigits]

VAR's good but in terms of Scotland anyway it's never going to be at every ground. My radical idea is get 2 refs on the park instead of having a fourth official . What crucial role does the 4th guy fulfill anyway ? Replace him with a security officer and a swearbox lol. With 2 refs on the pitch able to consult on decisions as appropriate maybe an increased chance of arriving at the correct outcome. Yes I know we are not blessed with shining examples of referee competency up here but perhaps by working as a team they'd get more stuff right.

[OTT]

I think complacency is probably as big a factor too. None of them despite turning in some genuinely awful performances have ever faced any actual sanction for it. When was a ref last demoted?

[Ex member of the SaS]

Don't think the current crop would have the brains to use it properly ( especially where the bigots are concerned ). Being reported Hibs had another meeting due to dodgy decisions against Dundee.

Mentioned above, train the officials properly.

Make the rules clear that anyone, other then the club captain approaches the ref it's a card. ( this would stop ref's being surrounded ) and make the rules stick ( even to the bigot clubs ).

Make the ref's professional and an independent committee reviewing performances with demotion to the lower league and drop in wages if they do not keep up standards to ALL clubs. ( this would never happen as the bigots would get ignored in the rules ).

Something else that could be taken from Rugby is, rather than a yellow card, get sent off for a certain time. This would improve tackles and stop faking it. It would also give the offended team an advantage.

[Seymour M Hersh]

53 minutes ago, gordon simpson said:

no I am a big Hearts fan 

 

How tall are you? 

[I P Knightley]

On 27/02/2022 at 09:25, jamboinglasgow said:

I used to be in favour of VAR, but after how it was implemented down in England I would rather not have it up here. One thing it does is take away the joy of celebrating a goal, the fact you could have it ruled out a minute later means you will always left with doubt and not celebrate as hard.  

That can only apply to a minority of goals and, as someone else wrote, I'd be happy to see two Hearts goals chalked off based on VAR for every one that goes against the Hibs.

 

 

On 27/02/2022 at 09:57, jr ewing said:

Just needs a few more angles but definitely the way forward. 

You're spot on. It seems that the obvious view of the City handball wasn't available to the VAR officials. Surely part of the deal should be that the VAR guys see at least as much as is available to Gary and Alan back in the studio?

 

And then...

On 27/02/2022 at 10:18, Bainy said:

The var refs should explain their decisions after a game, especially ridiculous ones like the city handball. Pointless if they don't have access to all angles of the incident surely that's the point of it that it gives them that advantage.

If there's anything contentious, we can all see the angles that the VAR folk saw and they can explain their decisions with reference to those pictures/clips.

 

 

On 27/02/2022 at 11:14, benny said:

Rugby players seem to not answer back like the football players.

WavyDavy's already explained this but you'd see in rugby, whenever there's lip from a player, the ref marches them back 10m without hesitation. There's also mostly a good rapport between the refs and the players which is all part of the culture of the sport. It'll never happen in football as the whole sport is built around questioning referees' decisions.

[jambonian]

I'd be surprised if the old firm voted for VAR. The amount of dodgy decisions they would lose out on if VAR proved it would reduce their seasons points total quite dramatically therefore I'm all for it. Celtic are already 6 points better off because of two winning offside goals against us, never mind if that's happened against any other teams. 

[Canscot]

3 hours ago, jambonian said:

I'd be surprised if the old firm voted for VAR. The amount of dodgy decisions they would lose out on if VAR proved it would reduce their seasons points total quite dramatically therefore I'm all for it. Celtic are already 6 points better off because of two winning offside goals against us, never mind if that's happened against any other teams. 

And all the extra, extra minutes they got so they could finally get a winner against Ross County. Then jump into the crowd afterwards and get no punishment. 

[Tasavallan]

Premiership: 6 matches on a Saturday, does that mean 6 officials looking at the screen or 1 official covering 6 games.  As the VAR room at Hampden only allows 6 persons entry I am assuming 6 officials.

 

In which case where are these video watchers coming from?  Retired refs, existing refs or newly trained personnel.  Could be another job for Dougie Ross.

[HMFC01]

Just seen a bizarre VAR decision overturned by the referee in the Porto v Lyon europa league playoff match. 

 

63rd minute Porto player crosses ball in, Lyon player heads it back, Lyon player intercepts it bounces onto his elbow.   Somehow it's offside.   There was a Porto player offside behind him  but he doesn't touch it. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 9, 2022 by HMFC01

[Watt-Zeefuik]

When I think of VAR and the effect it could have on football, I think of Euan Norris and his disappearance from refereeing after giving us a crucial penalty against Celtic.

 

I think most refs, even if they grew up fans of a particular club (and what is someone who never had a football side doing refereeing a football match anyway), want to be unbiased. But they now the score just as well as anyone in the business. They make a call that impacts one of the terrible two, and they could have their careers ended.

 

What VAR gives them is a bit of cover. If they make a call and the VAR doesn't overturn it, now the rage of a few politically well connected OF supporters falls on both the ref and the VAR, and it's harder to bitterly complain that the ref ruined their season.

 

Yes, if you think refs in general are just out to fluff the OF from the get-go, it's not going to change anything. But I think VAR or its equivalents has made sport in the US better on the whole. All officials make mistakes. VAR at least gives them a chance to fix them.

[Jack Torrance]

I see the GFA have decided on our first Video Assistant Referee for the launch...

[Mark_Mywords]

20 minutes ago, Jack Torrance said:

I see the GFA have decided on our first Video Assistant Referee for the launch...

 

Oh, it's worse than that!

 

[spacerjoe]

On 27/02/2022 at 12:29, wavydavy said:

 

It is only as good as those who review the footage.

 

An example yesterday is a perfect case as to how to get it spectacularly wrong in the Everton v Man City game.

 

Rodrigo clearly uses his arm to deflect the ball in the box and the ref and the VAR Official both get it wrong. Why is the vital question, only they know the answer.

 

Had Everton been playing Watford or some other team like that would they have made the same decision? 

The Everton handball is a moot point in the case for VAR.

 

VAR didn't overule a correct decision, so if it didn't exist the result would have been the same.

 

The important thing is to look at how many wrong decisions are being corrected by VAR.

 

Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be data on that. I guess as it's still subjective.

 

Anecdotally, it felt as though there were very few wrong decisions at the Euros and less complaints this season down south than usual.

Edited March 10, 2022 by spacerjoe

[Fozzyonthefence]

On 04/03/2022 at 13:49, jambonian said:

I'd be surprised if the old firm voted for VAR. The amount of dodgy decisions they would lose out on if VAR proved it would reduce their seasons points total quite dramatically therefore I'm all for it. Celtic are already 6 points better off because of two winning offside goals against us, never mind if that's happened against any other teams. 

That’s not true though is it - you’re forgetting Boyce’s goal was offside too! 

 

I think it’s a bit of both though.  Sure, Celtic and Rangers would get some of their controversial decisions that they’ve benefitted from reversed.  But on the flip side, I’d wager that they’d both get more penalties than us (I believe that we’ve surprisingly had more penalties than both of them in the league, certainly was the case a few weeks ago).  
 

If you think VAR will drastically reduce the OF’s points totally you’re going to be very disappointed.

[tynietigers]

I believe VAR will be here in the next 2 years but you also need goal line technology, one without the other is a bit pointless to me.

[avhudtheteeshirt]

On 27/02/2022 at 11:14, benny said:

Rugby players seem to not answer back like the football players.

Rugby has always had a rule of 10 yard penalty for arguing with the ref.

Football had the same rule at one point but it just disappeared?

[Ex member of the SaS]

On 27/02/2022 at 12:25, wavydavy said:

 

Having played the game myself I think that there are a number of answers for that.

 

The first and most crucial in my opinion is that the refs speak to the players giving them guidance on what they are expecting them to do with regards to their interpretation of the laws.

 

As with most laws they can be interpreted in different ways depending on which country you play the game in whcih may differ for example if you play your rugby in Edinburgh, compared to someone playing in France or Italy.

 

Some of the refs used in the International game are from the Southern Hemisphere Countries such as South Africa, Australia and New Zealand who have a slightly different approach to the refs in Europe so it is important that they say what they want from the players.

 

The refs will happily speak to the Captain's of the teams and explain why they have made a decision and they will get advice from their assistants (touch judges) and TMO to check for anything they have missed or if they are unsure about something.

 

They can also give penalties for back chat and increase the distance by a further ten metres if they see fit.

 

So a combination of all of these factors in my opinion is why there is very little back chat.

 

Mistakes can still be made but they are far less than we see in football.

All of the above could be implemented for football. No player to speak to the officials except the captain. Linesmen allowed by ref to make calls. a promotion/demotion for poor performances. Instead of yellow cards a sin bin for " X " minutes ( this would give the offended team an advantage and stop " professional" fouls.

[DETTY29]

30 minutes ago, avhudtheteeshirt said:

Rugby has always had a rule of 10 yard penalty for arguing with the ref.

Football had the same rule at one point but it just disappeared?

I'm sure the key thinking was that there really wasn't an advantage.

 

10m in rugby can mean a penalty becoming more kickable for points, or kicking to touch a lot further forward especially with the success of rolling mauls leading to tries.

 

In football it was argued that some free kicks are better further back and as we saw against Hibs  indirect free kicks in the box pretty pointless.

 

Football also tried to introduce captain only approaching referees a few years back, that seems to have fizzled out too.

 

Football imo lacks sufficient on field punishments and focuses too much on post , future games punishments or worse, monetary punishments which in e.g the EPL is pretty pointless.

 

Intimidate ref in numbers?

 

1 player yellow, £100k club fine.

Edited March 10, 2022 by DETTY29

[Haken]

Used properly, I'm in favour of VAR.  'Used properly' is a huge qualifier, though, for all of the reasons stated on this thread.

 

Bottom line, refs should be better and be drawn from all across the country, not just the west.  Next line to bottom, the linesmen - or 'assistant referees' as they are laughingly meant to be - must be much, much better.  Sometimes get the impression that the ref makes absolutely clear to the linesmen that he is the boss and their job is to simply flag for thrown ins, corners and offsides.

 

And what is the point of a fourth official, other than to give the managers someone to moan at?

[iwasthere1954]

On 27/02/2022 at 10:44, Mikey1874 said:

 

I think the challenge for Scotland is to look at England and how that could be improved.

 

The challenge for England is to get better cameras. Several decisions have just been guesses. But use the high resolution camera including the cricket hot spot etc.

 

How it's used in England is the onfield decision is paramount. So lots of penalties are not given and a few actually upheld because VAR says 'not a clear and obvious error'.  Scotland needs to review all these decisions are decide how it wants to go. 

 

But the clear offsides and violent fouls will improve the game here. 

If you want to look how to improve var don't look to the EPL. Look how they do it abroad. Not perfect but a lot quicker.

[Ex member of the SaS]

18 hours ago, Jack Torrance said:

I see the GFA have decided on our first Video Assistant Referee for the launch...

Great guy and so funny. Was brilliant as Egor in the spoof Frankenstein, where every time he was mentioned the horses went daft!

[Chillidigits]

4 hours ago, DETTY29 said:

I'm sure the key thinking was that there really wasn't an advantage.

 

10m in rugby can mean a penalty becoming more kickable for points, or kicking to touch a lot further forward especially with the success of rolling mauls leading to tries.

 

In football it was argued that some free kicks are better further back and as we saw against Hibs  indirect free kicks in the box pretty pointless.

 

Football also tried to introduce captain only approaching referees a few years back, that seems to have fizzled out too.

 

Football imo lacks sufficient on field punishments and focuses too much on post , future games punishments or worse, monetary punishments which in e.g the EPL is pretty pointless.

 

Intimidate ref in numbers?

 

1 player yellow, £100k club fine.

A free kick to us on the edge of the box Mr Kingsley would want the ref to punish them by being allowed to take the kick from further back.

[milky_26]

1 hour ago, iwasthere1954 said:

If you want to look how to improve var don't look to the EPL. Look how they do it abroad. Not perfect but a lot quicker.

Exactly, they have Mike Riley the dinosaur in charge who I don't think wants VAR

[King Of The Cat Cafe]

Just glad that VAR was not in existence for the Scottish Cup in 2012...😎

[Watt-Zeefuik]

6 hours ago, DETTY29 said:

I'm sure the key thinking was that there really wasn't an advantage.

 

10m in rugby can mean a penalty becoming more kickable for points, or kicking to touch a lot further forward especially with the success of rolling mauls leading to tries.

 

In football it was argued that some free kicks are better further back and as we saw against Hibs  indirect free kicks in the box pretty pointless.

 

Football also tried to introduce captain only approaching referees a few years back, that seems to have fizzled out too.

 

Football imo lacks sufficient on field punishments and focuses too much on post , future games punishments or worse, monetary punishments which in e.g the EPL is pretty pointless.

 

Intimidate ref in numbers?

 

1 player yellow, £100k club fine.

 

I think the biggest problem with the captain-only is that often the captain is miles away from the action, as happens for us if there's an issue in the opposing goal and Gordon has to jog the length of the pitch and back to speak to the ref, often not knowing what the issue was.

 

Making it captain and vice captain only could work though.

 

20 hours ago, Mark_Mywords said:

 

Oh, it's worse than that!

 

 

Possibly unpopular opinion, but I think Beaton might be a good pick for the ref booth, away from the cameras and the players. He's plenty sharp with his calls and can be a good ref during some games. The problem is when he gets his back up with certain players and starts calling "look at me" fouls to cover his insecurity. He might actually be just fine in the booth.

[Percival King]

The VAR debate, for me, often comes at the subject from the wrong perspective. Often the focus is on decisions it gets, or appears to get, wrong - any subjective system will always be fallible, we're not going to get a perfect system. It's the modern way to talk more about  the contentious decisions instead of the correct outcomes which VAR delivers. Maybe the focus should be more on looking at the number of incorrect referee decisions which it corrects which may help convince some folk of VAR's benefits, albeit we shouldn't ignore questionable decisions. There will always be decisions which, because they're subjective, will create debate and controversy but there will be probably more incorrect decisions which will be corrected based not on subjectivity but on clear evidence on a screen. If a bias or corrupt football authority tried to abuse or misuse the system to favour one or two teams I think that would become apparent and, for non subjective decisions, would be hard to defend. If it comes in, there still needs to be an acknowledgement that no system is perfect and that the potential for improvement is always there. It's a journey!

[Tasavallan]

VAR benefitting Sevco tonight.  SFA will obviously take this on board.