The 'Battle' for 3rd ( merged )

[Luckies1874]

1 hour ago, Ex member of the SaS said:

We maybe 2 points better off but where were the rest last season. IIRC they were further behind than 5 points. We play like we did against Celtic then we will win more than them, the key is how we set out and who we play. Robbie has a big task and we need more consistency and more aggressive tactics.

 

1pt poorer off after 28 games after Wednesday nights expected result. We had 46pts last season, 45pts this.

 

We were 11 points clear of Dundee Utd in 4th and 12 points clear of Hibs, Livingston and Motherwell in joint 5th at this stage.

 

https://londonhearts.com/scores/games/202202261.html

[Getintaethem]

15 minutes ago, Luckies1874 said:

 

1pt poorer off after 28 games after Wednesday nights expected result. We had 46pts last season, 45pts this.

 

We were 11 points clear of Dundee Utd in 4th and 12 points clear of Hibs, Livingston and Motherwell in joint 5th at this stage.

 

https://londonhearts.com/scores/games/202202261.html

pretty good considering our injuries and playing European group stage football.  Think we finished on 61pts last season, would like to see us beat that figure

[Bazzas right boot]

1 hour ago, Ex member of the SaS said:

We maybe 2 points better off but where were the rest last season. IIRC they were further behind than 5 points. We play like we did against Celtic then we will win more than them, the key is how we set out and who we play. Robbie has a big task and we need more consistency and more aggressive tactics.

 

 

The way we play celtic, win ,lose or draw has little or no bearing on how many we'll win v the others.

 

Away v celtic has no correlation to how we will play v the other teams.

 

Bob has us at the most consistent point we've ever been in years, if not decades, so it's not a big ask, he's done it before, done it last season and is doing it now. 

It's just a continuation of his current great work.

We're also already 3rd so we just need  show the same consistency. 

 

No idea what more aggressive tactics are.

Kick folk harder?, attack more? Paint our faces and scream at opposition players?

 

 

Edited March 10, 2023 by Bazzas right boot

[Luckies1874]

Just now, Getintaethem said:

pretty good considering our injuries and playing European group stage football.  Think we finished on 61pts last season, would like to see us beat that figure

 

Will be tough task now and will definitely require a win or two on the road. If we do we will easily finish 3rd.

[Getintaethem]

7 minutes ago, Luckies1874 said:

 

Will be tough task now and will definitely require a win or two on the road. If we do we will easily finish 3rd.

Aye, 17 points from 10 games is a big ask, having said that, our 5 before the split are all winnable

[part_time_jambo]

5 hours ago, soonbe110 said:

In the best league in the world 4th is seen as a great thing. 

Only if your a Hibee.

[soonbe110]

1 hour ago, part_time_jambo said:

Only if your a Hibee.

Don’t think they play in that league.  Liverpool fans will ‘ celebrate’ finishing fourth this season, if they manage to do it. 

[Luckies1874]

So for 3rd place NOT to get guaranteed group stage European football then Inverness, Raith, Falkirk or Ayr would have to win the Scottish Cup. A Scottish Cup which has Celtic, Rangers and Hearts still in it.

[Gorgie_Rules]

9 hours ago, Luckies1874 said:

So for 3rd place NOT to get guaranteed group stage European football then Inverness, Raith, Falkirk or Ayr would have to win the Scottish Cup. A Scottish Cup which has Celtic, Rangers and Hearts still in it.

Shows you how ludicrous it is giving the better European spot to the cup winner that Falkirk, Ayr, Inverness are 2/3 games away from group stage European football instead of a team that has proved themselves over 38 games in the top flight.

[karipidis]

14 hours ago, Getintaethem said:

Aye, 17 points from 10 games is a big ask, having said that, our 5 before the split are all winnable

4 home games against non old firm teams (St Mirren, Ross County, Hibs and Aberdeen) = 10/12 points.
 

So would need 7 or 5 points from the following - Aberdeen, Killie, Hibs, Livi/St Mirren away. 
 

think it’s achievable but will need a couple of big results. 

[pettigrewsstylist]

Pittodrie result has potential to make it a 2 horse race with us and the flairmeisters.

Tough ask to win up there. Some game on the cards that one.

Edited March 11, 2023 by pettigrewsstylist

[Sooks]

1 hour ago, Gorgie_Rules said:

Shows you how ludicrous it is giving the better European spot to the cup winner that Falkirk, Ayr, Inverness are 2/3 games away from group stage European football instead of a team that has proved themselves over 38 games in the top flight.

Disagree . It was totally correct taking away the European slot from the runner up and giving it to the next team in the league , but if you take it away from the winner then it becomes a completely devalued tournament like the league cup . If one of those clubs were to actually beat all those bigger clubs to lift the trophy then they would deserve the European prize 

[Bazzas right boot]

40 minutes ago, Sooks said:

Disagree . It was totally correct taking away the European slot from the runner up and giving it to the next team in the league , but if you take it away from the winner then it becomes a completely devalued tournament like the league cup . If one of those clubs were to actually beat all those bigger clubs to lift the trophy then they would deserve the European prize 

 

Play off- 3rd place v sc winner for the best European slot?

 

 

 

[Flimsy]

31 minutes ago, Bazzas right boot said:

 

Play off- 3rd place v sc winner for the best European slot?

 

 

 

No, it is determined by UEFA that cup winners have priority. Rightly so in my view.

[RENE]

8/9 points ahead of 4th place by the break will do it. 

[Ex member of the SaS]

16 hours ago, Bazzas right boot said:

 

 

The way we play celtic, win ,lose or draw has little or no bearing on how many we'll win v the others.

 

Away v celtic has no correlation to how we will play v the other teams.

 

Bob has us at the most consistent point we've ever been in years, if not decades, so it's not a big ask, he's done it before, done it last season and is doing it now. 

It's just a continuation of his current great work.

We're also already 3rd so we just need  show the same consistency. 

 

No idea what more aggressive tactics are.

Kick folk harder?, attack more? Paint our faces and scream at opposition players?

 

 

BOAK!

[Bazzas right boot]

12 minutes ago, RENE said:

8/9 points ahead of 4th place by the break will do it. 

 

1 point ahead at the break will do it.

 

 

[Bazzas right boot]

12 minutes ago, Ex member of the SaS said:

BOAK!

 

One of your more intelligent replies. 

 

 

[OTT]

2 hours ago, Gorgie_Rules said:

Shows you how ludicrous it is giving the better European spot to the cup winner that Falkirk, Ayr, Inverness are 2/3 games away from group stage European football instead of a team that has proved themselves over 38 games in the top flight.

 

I agree. Don't get me wrong, still give Europe as something to play for with the Scottish, but surely swapping it with 3rd makes more sense? Give the easiest ride to the most consistent teams. That way hopefully we can see our coefficient grow. On the off chance a club like Falkirk wins it, that wouldn't be very good for that. Its mental. 

[Thunder and Lightning]

59 minutes ago, Bazzas right boot said:

 

Play off- 3rd place v sc winner for the best European slot?

 

 

 

 

I think that's a cracking idea. Bit unfair perhaps on third who have done more to get that. But what a day out it would be. 

[Thunder and Lightning]

29 minutes ago, Flimsy said:

No, it is determined by UEFA that cup winners have priority. Rightly so in my view.

Didn't know that, suppose it continues the romance of the cup. 

[Bazzas right boot]

After today hopefully "3rd" won't matter,  be all about the cup.😉

[HoGwash]

13 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

I agree. Don't get me wrong, still give Europe as something to play for with the Scottish, but surely swapping it with 3rd makes more sense? Give the easiest ride to the most consistent teams. That way hopefully we can see our coefficient grow. On the off chance a club like Falkirk wins it, that wouldn't be very good for that. Its mental. 

I agree with your point about league position probably giving the country as a whole a better chance of improving the coefficient but for me, winning the Cup will always trump finishing 3rd. Our cup wins are ingrained in my memory. Our 3rd places not so much.

[Bazzas right boot]

39 minutes ago, Flimsy said:

No, it is determined by UEFA that cup winners have priority. Rightly so in my view.

 

Maybe aye, maybe naw.

 

3rd place in the top division takes more effort and determines the better team, but it does help keep the romance of the cup alive. ( although I'd argue the parade is for the cup win, European football isn't even a thought).

 

I do think,  unfortunaley for Scotland we can't be picky or choosey when it comes to European football we need our best teams in Europe, we can't really afford  for reputation if anything a Ayr etc in the European group stage over the team in 3rd in the top flight.

 

We need our best teams in European football and the league table gives us that in order.

 

 

 

[Sooks]

1 hour ago, Bazzas right boot said:

 

Play off- 3rd place v sc winner for the best European slot?

 

 

 

Nah not for me , I would always give the Scottish Cup winner a European prize personally . Otherwise it gets devalued like the league cup . I like what they did taking it away from the runner up and think that is enough 

[DS98]

2 hours ago, Sooks said:

Disagree . It was totally correct taking away the European slot from the runner up and giving it to the next team in the league , but if you take it away from the winner then it becomes a completely devalued tournament like the league cup . If one of those clubs were to actually beat all those bigger clubs to lift the trophy then they would deserve the European prize 

No sure about that. 
 

Hibs for example. Who have a history of easy draws.

 

In 2021 only had to beat QotS, Stranraer, Motherwell, Dundee Utd and St Johnstone to lift the trophy. They absolutely would not deserve it more than say we did last season over 38 games.

 

1 hour ago, Bazzas right boot said:

 

Play off- 3rd place v sc winner for the best European slot?

 

 

 

Decent shout.

[Fozzyonthefence]

35 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

I agree. Don't get me wrong, still give Europe as something to play for with the Scottish, but surely swapping it with 3rd makes more sense? Give the easiest ride to the most consistent teams. That way hopefully we can see our coefficient grow. On the off chance a club like Falkirk wins it, that wouldn't be very good for that. Its mental. 

Whoever finishes 3rd isn’t going to improve the coefficient anyway.  Realistically we rely on Celtic or Rangers having a good run in the Europa or Conference as they aren’t good enough for the CL.  Everyone else, including us, unfortunately are hopelessly out of their depth at that level and it is just a money making exercise. 
 

Winning the cup is a massive achievement for anyone outside the OF and far more memorable than being 3rd.  I think it’s right the way UEFA do this, not that they get many things right and gives added value to the cup. 

[Sooks]

3 minutes ago, DS98 said:

No sure about that. 
 

Hibs for example. Who have a history of easy draws.

 

In 2021 only had to beat QotS, Stranraer, Motherwell, Dundee Utd and St Johnstone to lift the trophy. They absolutely would not deserve it more than say we did last season over 38 games.

 

Decent shout.

I would lose my current level of excitement and interest in the Scottish Cup if they removed the European spot. I honestly barely give a toot when we get papped out the League Cup now . It is not as though there is a big domestic financial reward for it 

[Bazzas right boot]

8 minutes ago, Sooks said:

I would lose my current level of excitement and interest in the Scottish Cup if they removed the European spot. I honestly barely give a toot when we get papped out the League Cup now . It is not as though there is a big domestic financial reward for it 

 

Don't think anyone is saying remove it, just the better slot goes to 3rd place team.

 

Also, winning a cup is what us what makes it  good.

The league,  especially  in Scotland for us,  the prize is European football, in the cup the prize is winning it.

 

Being runner up in be cup is shite- utter shite, being  3rd in the league is good.

 

 

 

[Fozzyonthefence]

18 minutes ago, DS98 said:

No sure about that. 
 

Hibs for example. Who have a history of easy draws.

 

In 2021 only had to beat QotS, Stranraer, Motherwell, Dundee Utd and St Johnstone to lift the trophy. They absolutely would not deserve it more than say we did last season over 38 games.

 

Decent shout.

The easiest run to a final ever must have been us in 1998.  We played Clydebank, Albion Rovers, then Ayr (all at home), then Falkirk in the semi (where we managed to get ragdolled by Kevin McAllister but still won), although we did have to beat a very strong, on paper at least (but over the hill) Rangers team in the final. 
 

Did that easy run to the final take the gloss off the win?  Not at all!

[Fozzyonthefence]

20 minutes ago, Sooks said:

I would lose my current level of excitement and interest in the Scottish Cup if they removed the European spot. I honestly barely give a toot when we get papped out the League Cup now . It is not as though there is a big domestic financial reward for it 

Is anyone saying remove the European spot completely rather than 3rd should automatically get preference  / automatic group stages?  
 

I agree with you though, I’m all for it going to the cup winners.  Winning the cup always trumps finishing 3rd even if some team does get a fortuitous draw.  I’ve never seen an open top bus parade with 100,000 Jambos lining the streets for a 3rd place finish!

[Sooks]

1 minute ago, Fozzyonthefence said:

Is anyone saying remove the European spot completely rather than 3rd should automatically get preference  / automatic group stages?  
 

I agree with you though, I’m all for it going to the cup winners.  Winning the cup always trumps finishing 3rd even if some team does get a fortuitous draw.  I’ve never seen an open top bus parade with 100,000 Jambos lining the streets for a 3rd place finish!

Yes the post I replied to this morning that sparked the debate

[Sooks]

16 minutes ago, Bazzas right boot said:

 

Don't think anyone is saying remove it, just the better slot goes to 3rd place team.

 

Also, winning a cup is what us what makes it  good.

The league,  especially  in Scotland for us,  the prize is European football, in the cup the prize is winning it.

 

Being runner up in be cup is shite- utter shite, being  3rd in the league is good.

 

 

 

I would always give it the highest slot after 1st and 2nd , others may disagree 

[pettigrewsstylist]

Bump.

[mr fox]

On 10/03/2023 at 17:05, Bazzas right boot said:

 

 

The way we play celtic, win ,lose or draw has little or no bearing on how many we'll win v the others.

 

Away v celtic has no correlation to how we will play v the other teams.

 

Bob has us at the most consistent point we've ever been in years, if not decades, so it's not a big ask, he's done it before, done it last season and is doing it now. 

It's just a continuation of his current great work.

We're also already 3rd so we just need  show the same consistency. 

 

No idea what more aggressive tactics are.

Kick folk harder?, attack more? Paint our faces and scream at opposition players?

 

 

Ok thanks Robbie 👍

[GC81]

On 11/03/2023 at 09:10, Bazzas right boot said:

 

Play off- 3rd place v sc winner for the best European slot?

 

 

 

 

On 11/03/2023 at 10:09, OTT said:

 

I agree. Don't get me wrong, still give Europe as something to play for with the Scottish, but surely swapping it with 3rd makes more sense? Give the easiest ride to the most consistent teams. That way hopefully we can see our coefficient grow. On the off chance a club like Falkirk wins it, that wouldn't be very good for that. Its mental. 

 

On 11/03/2023 at 10:11, Thunder and Lightning said:

 

I think that's a cracking idea. Bit unfair perhaps on third who have done more to get that. But what a day out it would be. 

If Inverness or Falkirk win the cup, they'll have done so by beating one of Celtic or Rangers - something we've not managed to do in seven attempts this season.

 

Scottish Cup win will, and should, always take precedence over finishing third in the league.

[Jambo 4 Ever]

 

Assuming the top 6 remains the same …our league record against them this season is

 

Celtic             Played 3 Lost 3
The Rangers Played 3 Lost 3
Aberdeen      Played 3 won 1 Lost 2
Livi                 Played 3 Drawn 2 Lost 1

 

With only Hibs being positive ……
Played 2 Won 1 Drawn 1

 

Total Played 14 Won 2 Drawn 3 Lost 9

 

not good 

[Luckies1874]

13 minutes ago, Jambo 4 Ever said:

 

Assuming the top 6 remains the same …our league record against them this season is

 

Celtic             Played 3 Lost 3
The Rangers Played 3 Lost 3
Aberdeen      Played 3 won 1 Lost 2
Livi                 Played 3 Drawn 2 Lost 1

 

With only Hibs being positive ……
Played 2 Won 1 Drawn 1

 

Total Played 14 Won 2 Drawn 3 Lost 9

 

not good 

 

Especially when you throw in the SC defeat to Celtic and 6 defeats to Zurich, Istanbul and Fiorentina!

 

[GC81]

Of the top seven, the breakdown in home/away games after the split would be.

 

Celtic

Rangers, St Mirren. (Home)
Hearts, Aberdeen, Hibs, Livi (away)

 

Rangers

Hearts, Aberdeen, Hibs (home).

Celtic, Livingston, St Mirren (away).

 

Hearts

Celtic, Aberdeen, Hibs, Livingston (home)

Rangers, St Mirren (away).

 

Aberdeen

Celtic, Hibs (home)

Rangers, Hearts, Livingston, St Mirren (away)

 

Hibs

Celtic, Livingston, St Mirren (home)

Rangers, Hearts, Aberdeen (away)

 

Livingston

Celtic, Aberdeen, St Mirren (home)

Rangers, Hearts, Hibs (away)

 

St Mirren

Rangers, Hearts, Aberdeen (home)

Celtic, Hibs, Livingston (away)

 

 

In that case, so we want St Mirren to make the top six ahead of Livi? That would mean it's less likely Celtic or Hearts would have to switch fixtures. In fact I don't think anyone would.

 

That means Aberdeen and Hibs would both have more away games than Hearts.

 

Basically, as long as we're third by the split, we'll probably be third at the end of the season unless Aberdeen and Hibs can pull off some big results (beating Old Firm or winning at Tynecastle).