Swiss ramble - club finances

[Newton51]

Full thread 

 

[Serge]

Good twitter thread.

Lots of data to get lost in!

 

👍

[Rogue Daddy]

Good thread… didn’t understand most of it, liked the last sentence though 👍

 

It is difficult for any Scottish club to compete financially with Celtic and Rangers, but Hearts seem to be on the right track #HMFC

[jambo19]

Just goes to show how poor our TV deal is and how important gate receipts are for scottish clubs.

 

Hopefully we get 3rd in the league and Europe as that will massively benefit us considering the thread.

 

Other than that wages under Cathro, Levein and Stendel were pretty high for very little reward. Hopefully we have a better structure in place for contracts and bonuses.

 

Very easy for other fans to say its all benefactors given the loss of tickets and payments on the stadium. Once everything is paid for and now fans are back we'll be in a good position 

[Pans Jambo]

30 minutes ago, jambo19 said:

Just goes to show how poor our TV deal is and how important gate receipts are for scottish clubs.

 

Hopefully we get 3rd in the league and Europe as that will massively benefit us considering the thread.

 

Other than that wages under Cathro, Levein and Stendel were pretty high for very little reward. Hopefully we have a better structure in place for contracts and bonuses.

 

Very easy for other fans to say its all benefactors given the loss of tickets and payments on the stadium. Once everything is paid for and now fans are back we'll be in a good position 

You have to laugh though eh? 

 

Aye Doncaster, his cronies and the old firm have definitely done a good job there....

[DS98]

The tv deal is disgusting. 

[Ainsley Harriott]

49 minutes ago, jambo19 said:

Just goes to show how poor our TV deal is and how important gate receipts are for scottish clubs.

 

Hopefully we get 3rd in the league and Europe as that will massively benefit us considering the thread.

 

Other than that wages under Cathro, Levein and Stendel were pretty high for very little reward. Hopefully we have a better structure in place for contracts and bonuses.

 

Very easy for other fans to say its all benefactors given the loss of tickets and payments on the stadium. Once everything is paid for and now fans are back we'll be in a good position 

Agree about the TV deal would expect us to be sitting not far off thr Belgians who have one that is double ours.

[vegas-voss]

They have devalued our leagues worth that much that I doubt it will ever get better.Absolutely shocking how we are treated but we are now at the point where companies just say take it or leave it.

[vegas-voss]

28 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

You have to laugh though eh? 

 

Aye Doncaster, his cronies and the old firm have definitely done a good job there....

It's absolutely incredible that with each deal he has presided over they have got worse but he has got a bigger salary.

[Bazzas right boot]

9 minutes ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

Agree about the TV deal would expect us to be sitting not far off thr Belgians who have one that is double ours.

 

Tbf, its almost treble. 

 

If we were around £50m it would still be shite but you can see the justification for it. 

 

If being cynical, you could put an argument forward for the TV companies and our governing bodies  intentionally keeping the TV and prize money low so the OF gap over the rest  is maintained. 

 

[Pans Jambo]

7 minutes ago, Bazzas right boot said:

If being cynical, you could put an argument forward for the TV companies and our governing bodies  intentionally keeping the TV and prize money low so the OF gap over the rest  is maintained. 

Cynical? I don't think its being cynical. It's by design. if (and it's huge IF) someone like Hearts or Aberdeen somehow won the league, you would soon hear the old firm screaming about more investment into the Scottish game and how poorly the financial side of it is being ran.

[Bazzas right boot]

1 minute ago, Pans Jambo said:

Cynical? I don't think its being cynical. It's by design. if (and it's huge IF) someone like Hearts or Aberdeen somehow won the league, you would soon hear the old firm screaming about more investment into the Scottish game and how poorly the financial side of it is being ran.

 

 

Agreed. 

 

If every club started with even a base of £5m then suddenly clubs like ourselves can turn over £20-£25m the gap on rangers and Celtic's £60m is far less. 

If it was £10m,even more so. 

 

They don't want that. 

 

The TV deal is horrible, it must be by design. 

 

It Would be Interesting to see he English women's games tv/ prize money now and compare it. 

 

 

[Tom Hardy’s Dug]

Swiss Ramble is excellent - you should look at previous threads re other clubs. It’s not just Scottish focussed.

[Ribble]

Ah the good ol TV deal debate!

 

Like it or not we will always struggle to compete with our neighbours down south, we have shared broadcasters and are competing with the league that attracts the most viewers from the most countries at the highest price with the most advertising. Christ a run of the mill EPL game can get more viewers in places like the US (only one of 212 countries the EPL is broadcast in) than an OF game does globally.

 

Even as a nation we are as a collective group of fans one of the most tribal, if it's not our team then we don't watch, in many other countries football fans will watch regardless of which team is playing and this has become key to the brilliant marketing of the EPL, Chelsea, Spurs, Liverpool, Arsenal, Newcastle fans all watching Man U v Brantford because it's the 'Super Sunday' game. I'm guilty of it too, the only Scottish game not involving Hearts that i can remember watching recently was Hibs v Cove last week and that was only because I seen it was 0-0 and watched to laugh at Hibs, had the score been 1 or 2 nil to Hibs i'd have switched it off immediately.

 

The one area that our TV deal should really be improved are our oversea's rights, no doubt Australia and Japan will have seen a fairly significant boost to viewing numbers this season With Ange, our aussie signings and the Japanese contingent at Celtic yet the rights will be on a fixed rate. All of our overseas rights should be based on a scale of viewership so when there are peaks of interest from other countries we then benefit.

[EIEIO]

 

Ah the good ol TV deal debate!

 

Like it or not we will always struggle to compete with our neighbours down south, we have shared broadcasters and are competing with the league that attracts the most viewers from the most countries at the highest price with the most advertising. Christ a run of the mill EPL game can get more viewers in places like the US (only one of 212 countries the EPL is broadcast in) than an OF game does globally.

 

Even as a nation we are as a collective group of fans one of the most tribal, if it's not our team then we don't watch, in many other countries football fans will watch regardless of which team is playing and this has become key to the brilliant marketing of the EPL, Chelsea, Spurs, Liverpool, Arsenal, Newcastle fans all watching Man U v Brantford because it's the 'Super Sunday' game. I'm guilty of it too, the only Scottish game not involving Hearts that i can remember watching recently was Hibs v Cove last week and that was only because I seen it was 0-0 and watched to laugh at Hibs, had the score been 1 or 2 nil to Hibs i'd have switched it off immediately.

 

The one area that our TV deal should really be improved are our oversea's rights, no doubt Australia and Japan will have seen a fairly significant boost to viewing numbers this season With Ange, our aussie signings and the Japanese contingent at Celtic yet the rights will be on a fixed rate. All of our overseas rights should be based on a scale of viewership so when there are peaks of interest from other countries we then benefit.

We cannot dream of competing with the EPL. We can dream of competing with Belgium,  Portugal and Scandinavian leagues for TV money though.  

[Homme]

Struggling to see how TV companies want the gap between the OF and the rest of us maintained. That's a strange one.

[Ribble]

Just now, Homme said:

Struggling to see how TV companies want the gap between the OF and the rest of us maintained. That's a strange one.

 

They don't, more competition = more viewers = more revenue from advertising

[EIEIO]

2 minutes ago, Homme said:

Struggling to see how TV companies want the gap between the OF and the rest of us maintained. That's a strange one.

They don't however, the OF are quite happy to get their TV money from European competitions though. 

[Ribble]

2 minutes ago, EIEIO said:

We cannot dream of competing with the EPL. We can dream of competing with Belgium,  Portugal and Scandinavian leagues for TV money though.  

 

When you add in population to the tv deals above (TV income/population) we outperform Poland and Turkey, slightly below Holland and Belgium and then miles off the rest. 

[hmfc_liam06]

7 minutes ago, EIEIO said:

We cannot dream of competing with the EPL. We can dream of competing with Belgium,  Portugal and Scandinavian leagues for TV money though.  

 

Correct.

 

Even taking Portugal out the equation the average income from Belgium, Holland and Poland is £72m. No one will convince me those leagues are a great deal better than Scotland. Holland perhaps, Belgium and Poland? No chance.

[EIEIO]

Just now, Ribble said:

 

When you add in population to the tv deals above (TV income/population) we outperform Poland and Turkey, slightly below Holland and Belgium and then miles off the rest. 

Interesting,  thanks for the info.

[Ribble]

4 minutes ago, hmfc_liam06 said:

 

Correct.

 

Even taking Portugal out the equation the average income from Belgium, Holland and Poland is £72m. No one will convince me those leagues are a great deal better than Scotland. Holland perhaps, Belgium and Poland? No chance.

 

It's not about the quality of the league, it's how many folk watch/can watch whatever quality on show (back of a fag packet numbers below)

 

Poland get £58m but have a population of 37.8m which works out at £1.53 per capita

Scotland get £34m but have a population of 5.5m which works out at £6.18 per capita 

Belgium get £83m but have a population of 11.5m which works out at £7.16 per capita

Holland get £119m but have a population of 17.1m which works out at £6.94 per capita

 

So even if we got the same per capita as Holland we'd get an extra £4m a season, if we took the average across the above we'd get £30m a season so £4m less

[hmfc_liam06]

4 minutes ago, Ribble said:

 

It's not about the quality of the league, it's how many folk watch/can watch whatever quality on show (back of a fag packet numbers below)

 

Poland get £58m but have a population of 37.8m which works out at £1.53 per capita

Scotland get £34m but have a population of 5.5m which works out at £6.18 per capita 

Belgium get £83m but have a population of 11.5m which works out at £7.16 per capita

Holland get £119m but have a population of 17.1m which works out at £6.94 per capita

 

So even if we got the same per capita as Holland we'd get an extra £4m a season, if we took the average across the above we'd get £30m a season so £4m less

 

Fair point.

Do you have figures on actual viewing figures though? Overseas viewers? Those are also factors into TV deals. I'd be interested in seeing what the difference there is.

[Ainsley Harriott]

Where are we linked with Mikey Johnston? Is this just made up beacuse there's no credible rumours?

[Ribble]

5 minutes ago, hmfc_liam06 said:

 

Fair point.

Do you have figures on actual viewing figures though? Overseas viewers? Those are also factors into TV deals. I'd be interested in seeing what the difference there is.

 

I don't have the numbers for overseas league or overseas viewers as most countries don't have the equivalent of BARB to collate and disseminate the viewing numbers. Additionally country by country there is a huge variance between in-home viewing and out of home viewing, if you take some of the african nations then a lesser % people have have a tv in their house so less than 50% of viewers are classed as in home with the majority being multiple households watching one tv in a bar or restaurant for example which then means that actual viewing numbers are much harder to estimate. 

 

A better indicator may well be overseas availability, ie Dutch football has been broadcast live in the UK but doubt we are broadcast in Holland for example. Also as I mentioned above EPL is broadcast in 212 countries

[milky_26]

7 minutes ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

Where are we linked with Mikey Johnston? Is this just made up beacuse there's no credible rumours?

I don't think we have been linked. It has come from rumours that both OF are looking to offload or at least get some players out on loan and MJ is supposedly one of them

[Bazzas right boot]

18 minutes ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

Where are we linked with Mikey Johnston? Is this just made up beacuse there's no credible rumours?

 

One that I mentioned we should be after if available a while ago. 

100% take him, not keen on loans tho. 

 

 

[Section Q]

Hearts reported the largest profit in Scotland with £2.0m, albeit only because of their “very generous” donations of £6.4m. In contrast, both Rangers and Celtic made large losses with £24.2m and £12.6m respectively, followed by Aberdeen £2.3m.

https://footballeconomyv2.blogspot.com/2022/01/hearts-on-right-financial-track.html

[Fly the Saltire]

16 minutes ago, Ribble said:

A better indicator may well be overseas availability, ie Dutch football has been broadcast live in the UK but doubt we are broadcast in Holland for example. Also as I mentioned above EPL is broadcast in 212 countries

 

A better comparison is with Norway, same population but with no club profile outside the country to compare with Old Firm's global reach.

 

So how come Norwegian league  can attract £63 million a year for domestic TV  football rights?

 

 

 

 

[Spellczech]

Doncaster should be ashamed but he never is. I wish Fireworks Phil had his job...

[davemclaren]

16 minutes ago, Fly the Saltire said:

 

A better comparison is with Norway, same population but with no club profile outside the country to compare with Old Firm's global reach.

 

So how come Norwegian league  can attract £63 million a year for domestic TV  football rights?

 

 

 

 

Who pays that - is it a state broadcaster?

[Fly the Saltire]

6 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

Who pays that - is it a state broadcaster?

Yes

[kingantti1874]

26 minutes ago, Fly the Saltire said:

 

A better comparison is with Norway, same population but with no club profile outside the country to compare with Old Firm's global reach.

 

So how come Norwegian league  can attract £63 million a year for domestic TV  football rights?

 

 

 

 

because it’s only worth what someone is willing to pay.. we are too close to England and that market.  
 

we should consider summer football .. will make the game much more marketable

[Fly the Saltire]

3 minutes ago, Fly the Saltire said:

Yes

Apologies TV 2 Norway is owned by Egmont Group and commercial operation.

[Hectormasson]

4 hours ago, Pans Jambo said:

You have to laugh though eh? 

 

Aye Doncaster, his cronies and the old firm have definitely done a good job there....

Absolute scumbags !!!

[Fly the Saltire]

11 minutes ago, kingantti1874 said:

because it’s only worth what someone is willing to pay.. we are too close to England and that market.  
 

we should consider summer football .. will make the game much more marketable

Norway gets £63m a year from TV rights and competes with  live English, German and Spanish football games

[Martin_T]

1 hour ago, Ribble said:

 

It's not about the quality of the league, it's how many folk watch/can watch whatever quality on show (back of a fag packet numbers below)

 

Poland get £58m but have a population of 37.8m which works out at £1.53 per capita

Scotland get £34m but have a population of 5.5m which works out at £6.18 per capita 

Belgium get £83m but have a population of 11.5m which works out at £7.16 per capita

Holland get £119m but have a population of 17.1m which works out at £6.94 per capita

 

So even if we got the same per capita as Holland we'd get an extra £4m a season, if we took the average across the above we'd get £30m a season so £4m less

 

Thanks for this, interesting analysis.

 

Is it not simplistic to look at it from a £ value of the rights per capita perspective though? You also have to factor in GDP per capita and the spending power of consumers in the market. Engagement level is I suspect also higher in Scotland relative to say Poland.

[Pans Jambo]

6 minutes ago, Martin_T said:

 

Thanks for this, interesting analysis.

 

Is it not simplistic to look at it from a £ value of the rights per capita perspective though? You also have to factor in GDP per capita and the spending power of consumers in the market. Engagement level is I suspect also higher in Scotland relative to say Poland.

Shut it Doncaster!

[davemclaren]

3 minutes ago, Fly the Saltire said:

Yes

Effectively a state subsidy I imagine. 

[Ribble]

21 minutes ago, Martin_T said:

 

Thanks for this, interesting analysis.

 

Is it not simplistic to look at it from a £ value of the rights per capita perspective though? You also have to factor in GDP per capita and the spending power of consumers in the market. Engagement level is I suspect also higher in Scotland relative to say Poland.

 

I totally agree it's simplistic view, there are so many factors that are considered as to what represents value to broadcasters for a nations TV deal

 

Number of viewers

disposable income of those viewers which impacts ad revenue

number of overseas rights sold impacts the sell on for the main broadcasters content

at home v not at home viewers alters the make up of ad sales

fans ability to attend matches, either financially or geographically (using the norway example as mentioned, Tromso/Bodo Glimt in the north probably have a fair % of fans that only watch on TV having migrated to the bigger cities such as Oslo for work, likewise that it is almost impossible for them to attend away games in olso as without flying it means a days travel each way so will increase tv viewers)

viewing numbers of foreign leagues

 

[scott herbertson]

1 hour ago, Section Q said:

Hearts reported the largest profit in Scotland with £2.0m, albeit only because of their “very generous” donations of £6.4m. In contrast, both Rangers and Celtic made large losses with £24.2m and £12.6m respectively, followed by Aberdeen £2.3m.

https://footballeconomyv2.blogspot.com/2022/01/hearts-on-right-financial-track.html

 

 

Hibs accounts should make interesting reading when they finally come out

[Jambo dans les Pyrenees]

Interesting that the Benefactor covered pretty much our loss of income (£4.6m).

 

So once Covid goes we have that gap covered back plus:

 

- Being back in the Premiership with higher prize and TV money

- Maximising the full potential of the new main stand

- Possibly lucrative european football if we finish 3rd.

 

You can see what Ann and co have built, and it looks good.

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

2 hours ago, hmfc_liam06 said:

 

Correct.

 

Even taking Portugal out the equation the average income from Belgium, Holland and Poland is £72m. No one will convince me those leagues are a great deal better than Scotland. Holland perhaps, Belgium and Poland? No chance.

Holland have 3 I suppose compared to the 2 here that are seen as the elite. Not getting into where or not we should be, but reality for many many years only 2 teams matter here. 

 

Thats the problem, these leagues are more than likely trying to sell the product as whole rather than 2 way scrap, maybe Holland as I mention the exception where you have a triangle of "blockbuster" fixtures heading it off

[Mikey1874]

 

[niblick1874]

56 minutes ago, Queensland Jambo said:

Interesting that the Benefactor covered pretty much our loss of income (£4.6m).

 

So once Covid goes we have that gap covered back plus:

 

- Being back in the Premiership with higher prize and TV money

- Maximising the full potential of the new main stand

- Possibly lucrative european football if we finish 3rd.

 

You can see what Ann and co have built, and it looks good.

 

Where is it going to go?

[Disco Dave]

1 hour ago, scott herbertson said:

 

 

Hibs accounts should make interesting reading when they finally come out

 

It seems they don't break their figures down into a granular level like we do....... The lack of transparency might make some believe Ron the Con has something to hide!

[scott herbertson]

20 minutes ago, Disco Dave said:

 

It seems they don't break their figures down into a granular level like we do....... The lack of transparency might make some believe Ron the Con has something to hide!

 to be fair I think less is required as he over 75% of the shares

 

Would still be a worry if I was a Hibs fan, which of course I will never be

 

 

[Fly the Saltire]

3 hours ago, davemclaren said:

Effectively a state subsidy I imagine. 

No, as said above TV2 Norway is a commercial outfit and £63m a year competing against live football from England, Germany and Spain

[niblick1874]

The TV deals are crap because the TV deals are crap. Everyone is barking up the wrong tree.

 

Wait.

 

It's the fault of them trees, not to mention all them space balls barking at them. They are all barking mad. Trees, Bark, You need look no further for proof of a conspiracy.

[davemclaren]

28 minutes ago, Fly the Saltire said:

No, as said above TV2 Norway is a commercial outfit and £63m a year competing against live football from England, Germany and Spain

Fair enough then. Decent deal for them.