Csaba's Broon Shoes Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 Just wondering who would you say is the best manager in the business for developing youth players and bringing them through into international superstars ? Dario Gradi ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tazio Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 Clearly Alex Ferguson. You won't win anything with youngsters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawrrrrrrr Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 Dario Gradi has brought through a few good players but seems to have lost his touch, a lot of his prospects get found out too Levein does a sterling job, Ross County/George Adams are very good at it Others include John Park and Falkirk more recently As for ferguson, since the beckhams and giggs era, he has failed pretty badly, man utd havent really brought a top prospect through themselves in about 5 years minimum and given the money they spend on youth thats pretty bad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Harris Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 Just wondering who would you say is the best manager in the business for developing youth players and bringing them through into international superstars ? Dario Gradi ? who was responsible for the west ham "conveyor belt"? They'd have to be up there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tazio Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 Could anyone name any Dario Gradi proteges? I get a bit stuck after Beckham doing a loan. Robbie Savage maybe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawrrrrrrr Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 who was responsible for the west ham "conveyor belt"? They'd have to be up there. Was it not redknapp? Or am I completely imagining things:wacko: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawrrrrrrr Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 Could anyone name any Dario Gradi proteges? I get a bit stuck after Beckham doing a loan. Robbie Savage maybe? Danny Murphy and Dean Ashton are probably the biggest two Theres definitly a few other decent ones too but not in the last few years since they fell down the leagues and cut off the funding Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cade Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 Right now? Arsene Wenger, without a shadow of a doubt. Sir Alex Ferguson used to be good at it but nowadays he's delagated most of his responsibilities to other members of his coaching staff, who will become fantastic managers in their own right sooner or later. But in the last 4 or 5 years, Arsenal have produced some outstanding players. Fabregas, Van Persie, Adebayor, Walcott.............and that's just a few of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tazio Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 But in the last 4 or 5 years, Arsenal have produced some outstanding players. Fabregas, Van Persie, Adebayor, Walcott.............and that's just a few of them. Walcott?? Through someone elses youth system and barely played for Arsenal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Csaba's Broon Shoes Posted January 25, 2008 Author Share Posted January 25, 2008 Could anyone name any Dario Gradi proteges? I get a bit stuck after Beckham doing a loan. Robbie Savage maybe? Livepool used to and still farm players out to crewe , so too many to mention Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawrrrrrrr Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 Right now? Arsene Wenger, without a shadow of a doubt. Sir Alex Ferguson used to be good at it but nowadays he's delagated most of his responsibilities to other members of his coaching staff, who will become fantastic managers in their own right sooner or later. But in the last 4 or 5 years, Arsenal have produced some outstanding players. Fabregas, Van Persie, Adebayor, Walcott.............and that's just a few of them. Arsenal havent produced one of them They've paid massive fees for all of them except fabregas Whose actually came through arsenals youth academy or been signed young and brought through Other than clichy I cant think of any regular first team starter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tazio Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 Livepool used to and still farm players out to crewe , so too many to mention But not really developed by Gradi, just helped along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 Dario Gradi has brought through a few good players but seems to have lost his touch, a lot of his prospects get found out too He did indeed lose his touch - but only after working miracles for almost 25 years! A genius as far as I'm concerned. Obviously Fergie and Wenger too: the former being especially good at protecting young players from the myriad distractions open to footballers nowadays. Look how he handled Ryan Giggs' emergence: instead of losing his way a la George Best or Gazza, Giggs developed into a modest, level-headed gentleman: I doubt you'll find anyone in the game with a bad word to say about him. Other than that, Alan Curbishley gained an excellent reputation at Charlton; and Glenn Roeder, believe it or not, when in charge of Newcastle's Academy (Wenger rates Roeder very highly). Meanwhile, in Scotland, in recent years you'd have to look at people like JJ (seems to have lost his touch now, mind), Levein, Yogi and above all Mowbray. Sure, John Park had a lot to do with it as well, but Mowbray worked wonders with what he inherited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tazio Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 He did indeed lose his touch - but only after working miracles for almost 25 years! A genius as far as I'm concerned. With the greatest respect utter bollocks. A genius would have moved to a bigger club and been successful. Gradi is a fashionable figure to like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 Could anyone name any Dario Gradi proteges? I get a bit stuck after Beckham doing a loan. Robbie Savage maybe? Beckham's loan was at Preston, actually! But in Gradi's case: as well as Ashton and Murphy, there were David Platt, Seth Johnson, Rob Jones, Geoff Thomas, Neil Lennon... others too no doubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicTs Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 Right now? Arsene Wenger, without a shadow of a doubt. Sir Alex Ferguson used to be good at it but nowadays he's delagated most of his responsibilities to other members of his coaching staff, who will become fantastic managers in their own right sooner or later. But in the last 4 or 5 years, Arsenal have produced some outstanding players. Fabregas, Van Persie, Adebayor, Walcott.............and that's just a few of them. I agree that Arsenal have some outstanding youngsters and that Wenger is brilliant at giving them the platform to perform and improve but the none of the 4 you mention actually came through the ranks at Highbury / Emirates. What he has done magnificently well is source and attract amazing talents at very good prices from elsewhere. Recently the likes of Fabregas, Eboue, Bendtner, Sagna and Diaby. The guys that have actually come through the academy are people like Ashley Cole, the Hoyte brothers, Clichy and Randall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tazio Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 Beckham's loan was at Preston, actually! But in Gradi's case: as well as Ashton and Murphy, there were David Platt, Seth Johnson, Rob Jones, Geoff Thomas, Neil Lennon... others too no doubt. And household name to a man. Platt was punted around all over the place, even Hibs, and nobody wanted him. Lennon was a journeyman for years until Leicester. Rob Jones?? I rest my case. As someone stated earlier whoever runs youth development at West Ham deserves a mention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 With the greatest respect utter bollocks. A genius would have moved to a bigger club and been successful. Gradi is a fashionable figure to like. Sorry, but you're way off here. Gradi didn't move on because of a disgusting smear campaign against him in the mid-90s: all totally untrue, but as we've seen with someone like Burley, mud sticks. So, with job security and the chance to continue doing what he does best, he stayed at Crewe. Why do I regard him as a genius? Here's why. Crewe Alexandra are such a tiny club that their natural place should really be in the bottom six of League Two. Yet Gradi not only got them up to the third flight, but unbelievably, spent eight out of nine years between 1997 and 2006 in what is now the Championship. When a club overachieves to this extent, it's almost always either bankrolled way beyond its means, or employs extremely agricultural tactics: an example of the latter being the amazing jobs Stan Ternent and Ronnie Moore did at Bury and Rotherham respectively. But not in Gradi's case: he did it by continually developing and selling on players, overseeing fantastic, risky, hard to master football, and spending nothing beyond the club's natural budget. He is a genius - and I don't think you'll ever see a club the size of Crewe spend so long above its natural level again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tazio Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 Sorry, but you're way off here. Gradi didn't move on because of a disgusting smear campaign against him in the mid-90s: all totally untrue, but as we've seen with someone like Burley, mud sticks. So, with job security and the chance to continue doing what he does best, he stayed at Crewe. Why do I regard him as a genius? Here's why. Crewe Alexandra are such a tiny club that their natural place should really be in the bottom six of League Two. Yet Gradi not only got them up to the third flight, but unbelievably, spent eight out of nine years between 1997 and 2006 in what is now the Championship. When a club overachieves to this extent, it's almost always either bankrolled way beyond its means, or employs extremely agricultural tactics: an example of the latter being the amazing jobs Stan Ternent and Ronnie Moore did at Bury and Rotherham respectively. But not in Gradi's case: he did it by continually developing and selling on players, overseeing fantastic, risky, hard to master football, and spending nothing beyond the club's natural budget. He is a genius - and I don't think you'll ever see a club the size of Crewe spend so long above its natural level again. And my suspicions are realised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 And household name to a man. Platt was punted around all over the place, even Hibs, and nobody wanted him. Lennon was a journeyman for years until Leicester. Rob Jones?? I rest my case. As someone stated earlier whoever runs youth development at West Ham deserves a mention. Platt gives much of the credit to his emergence to Gradi. The fact that he was punted around all over the place previously really ought to tell you something: Gradi turned him into the monumental overachiever he became. And Jones was an excellent full back for Liverpool and England! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicTs Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 A club who have had a brilliant youth policy for many years is Ipswich Town. From the time Bobby Robson led them through the Burley years and now under Jim Magilton they have brought through some fantastic home grown talent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 And my suspicions are realised. Come again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 A club who have had a brilliant youth policy for many years is Ipswich Town. From the time Bobby Robson led them through the Burley years and now under Jim Magilton they have brought through some fantastic home grown talent. Sadly, as a Norwich fan, I can only agree. Our excellent record in youth development went south when the great Kit Carson, responsible for developing huge amounts of players for us in the late 80s and early 90s, thus laying the foundations for our huge over-achievement of the time, left to join Peterborough, who promptly started unearthing gems of their own. Ipswich, like West Ham, can teach a lot of clubs about focusing on young talent, playing passing, attractive football and (generally speaking) managerial stability too. Incidentally, in world terms, I'd argue there can only be one outstanding candidate over the past 20 or 30 years: Auxerre's Guy Roux. What he achieved there was absolutely unparalleled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinydancer Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 Sorry, but you're way off here. Gradi didn't move on because of a disgusting smear campaign against him in the mid-90s: all totally untrue, but as we've seen with someone like Burley, mud sticks. So, with job security and the chance to continue doing what he does best, he stayed at Crewe. Why do I regard him as a genius? Here's why. Crewe Alexandra are such a tiny club that their natural place should really be in the bottom six of League Two. Yet Gradi not only got them up to the third flight, but unbelievably, spent eight out of nine years between 1997 and 2006 in what is now the Championship. When a club overachieves to this extent, it's almost always either bankrolled way beyond its means, or employs extremely agricultural tactics: an example of the latter being the amazing jobs Stan Ternent and Ronnie Moore did at Bury and Rotherham respectively. But not in Gradi's case: he did it by continually developing and selling on players, overseeing fantastic, risky, hard to master football, and spending nothing beyond the club's natural budget. He is a genius - and I don't think you'll ever see a club the size of Crewe spend so long above its natural level again. Sorry but if he was a genious then the question has to be asked why he did not make it to the top! If you say there was a smear campaign how bad was it? Because things like that did not stop Rix becoming an SPL manager even after an enquiry! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicTs Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 Incidentally, in world terms, I'd argue there can only be one outstanding candidate over the past 20 or 30 years: Auxerre's Guy Roux. What he achieved there was absolutely unparalleled. Absolutely. I think Ajax probably deserve a mention too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicTs Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 Dario Gradi : http://www.nationalfootballmuseum.com/pages/fame/Inductees/dariogradi.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Harris Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 so, what about West Ham (Redknapp?) - Rio Ferdinand, Joe Cole, Michael Carrick, Frank Lampard etc. not bad going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 Sorry but if he was a genious then the question has to be asked why he did not make it to the top! If you say there was a smear campaign how bad was it? Because things like that did not stop Rix becoming an SPL manager even after an enquiry! The smear campaign was as bad as it can possibly be: which put big clubs off from offering him the job. Rix, if you recall, wasn't exactly in the strongest negotiating position when he came here: he was having a problem finding any job in football at all, so took what he could get. Gradi didn't need the hassle - though I wish to God the FA had employed him as Technical Director instead of Howard sodding Wilkinson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 Dario Gradi : http://www.nationalfootballmuseum.com/pages/fame/Inductees/dariogradi.htm Indeed. God knows what he's doing in the Hall of Fame: what would any of his colleagues who work in football know, eh? Tazio says he's a "fashionable figure to like": end of discussion, surely? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 so, what about West Ham (Redknapp?) - Rio Ferdinand, Joe Cole, Michael Carrick, Frank Lampard etc. not bad going. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Carr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Harris Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Carr cheers for that, I was wondering who was responsible for that list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 Absolutely. I think Ajax probably deserve a mention too. Yes, very true. It's so sad what the Bosman ruling did to them: at the time, the reigning European Champions (who'd just gone through the entire Dutch season unbeaten) were a selling club with a small, uninspiring ground! But Bosman changed everything. Now, it'd be impossible for a club like Ajax, or even someone like Benfica to develop a brilliant side without it being broken up before it had a chance to peak. Money doesn't just talk: to clubs like Ajax, it positively swears... Below, the side which won the 1995 European Cup. How could one club unearth and bring through so much talent? Unbelievable. Van der Sar, Reiziger, Blind, Rijkaard, F.de Boer, Seedorf (Kanu 54), Litmanen (Kluivert 69), Davids, Finidi, R.de Boer, Overmars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinydancer Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 The smear campaign was as bad as it can possibly be: which put big clubs off from offering him the job. Rix, if you recall, wasn't exactly in the strongest negotiating position when he came here: he was having a problem finding any job in football at all, so took what he could get. Gradi didn't need the hastle - though I wish to God the FA had employed him as Technical Director instead of Howard sodding Wilkinson. I think you'll remember that Rix was already in football and took the hastle - and is still in football! Put big clubs off - don't think so! Took what he could get - don't think so! So it was nothing to do with the players-media-xenophobic fans? It was all Howards fault - don't think so! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 I think you'll remember that Rix was already in football and took the hastle - and is still in football!Put big clubs off - don't think so! Took what he could get - don't think so! So it was nothing to do with the players-media-xenophobic fans? It was all Howards fault - don't think so! He'd just been rejected by Crawley Town when he got the Hearts job: what does that tell you? Love the idea that "xenophobic fans" are somehow to blame for the English national team's ills, by the way: could you enlighten me please? And where on earth did I blame it all on Wilkinson anyway? I merely said I'd have vastly preferred Gradi in such a role: because Gradi had spent his career developing youngsters and getting them to play in the right way; Wilko, remarkable as his achievements at Leeds were, mostly played the long ball game. Go and ask Dario Gradi about the smear campaign, peebles: go on! Send him an email c/o Crewe Alexandra, and see what he says. But no, you somehow know better than the man himself, don't you? Give me strength. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamboinglasgow Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 I am hoping that our new manager (hopefully if it does happen) is one who is expert at developing youth. On top of all the other people may I also suggest Walter Smith, he is able to get players playing a level above, look what he did to Alan Hutton, is doing it at the momment to Burke (though no one can help Adam.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinydancer Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 He'd just been rejected by Crawley Town when he got the Hearts job: what does that tell you? Love the idea that "xenophobic fans" are somehow to blame for the English national team's ills, by the way: could you enlighten me please? And where on earth did I blame it all on Wilkinson anyway? I merely said I'd have vastly preferred Gradi in such a role: because Gradi had spent his career developing youngsters and getting them to play in the right way; Wilko, remarkable as his achievements at Leeds were, mostly played the long ball game. Go and ask Dario Gradi about the smear campaign, peebles: go on! Send him an email c/o Crewe Alexandra, and see what he says. But no, you somehow know better than the man himself, don't you? Give me strength. Right here we go 1st point - Rix was involved in football 2nd point - England should have one the best teams in the world! They don't have because after 18 years of Thatcherism all they have to do is turn up! Take the murder(rejoice,rejoice,rejoice) of the Belgrano and the Sun doing nothing to tell the truth. Christ you were on the streets celebrating!!! I know that i am straying but you have to agree that if the redtops throw that ****e at you all the time then the majority of the readers are going to believe it. But that is getting away from the xenophibia debate. Put it this way i have never felt more foreign than when i have visited England 3rd point - Why would i email the man. I don't know sh@t That's why i asked you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boabyarsebiscuit Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 Could anyone name any Dario Gradi proteges? I get a bit stuck after Beckham doing a loan. Robbie Savage maybe? Ray Wilkins. David Platt. Are 2 who spring to mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bighusref Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 Right now? Arsene Wenger, without a shadow of a doubt. Sir Alex Ferguson used to be good at it but nowadays he's delagated most of his responsibilities to other members of his coaching staff, who will become fantastic managers in their own right sooner or later. But in the last 4 or 5 years, Arsenal have produced some outstanding players. Fabregas, Van Persie, Adebayor, Walcott.............and that's just a few of them. Agreed. Despite other posters statements, players that Wenger "brought in" were teenagers and have spent a fair old time being nurtured by the club. He has a fantastic track record of bringing in young players from Europe and "developing" them. Also, the young African lads they have (Toure, Diaby etc) are excellent also. Arsenal havent produced one of them They've paid massive fees for all of them except fabregas Whose actually came through arsenals youth academy or been signed young and brought through Other than clichy I cant think of any regular first team starter Not true. Yes they paid a lot for Walcott and Adebayor and a lesser extend Van Persie but none of them could be construed as being "developed" by Wenger due to their relative standing and experience before arriving. The list of players that Wenger has "developed" is fairly long tbh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMA MAROON Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 Dario Gradi : http://www.nationalfootballmuseum.com/pages/fame/Inductees/dariogradi.htm Crewe produced 7 Premiership players in 24 years. Well done to them. I think Wenger and Monkeyheid are the best at developing young players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 Could anyone name any Dario Gradi proteges? I get a bit stuck after Beckham doing a loan. Robbie Savage maybe? Danny Murphy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inside right Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 Andy Roxburgh, thought his idea of taking a load of the under 16 world cup squad as training partners for the full squad was great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strachsuit Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 cheers for that, I was wondering who was responsible for that list. Tony Carr used to live near Ipswich, a friend of mine lived next door to him and became quite good friends over the years as he felt he was a genuinely nice bloke. Top man when you consider the talent brought through: lampard, defoe, ferdinand, cole, carrick, dyer and many more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wish Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 Jim Cassell - Man City Youth Acadamey Director. Brought through SWP, Richards, Barton (!), Willo Flood and Chris Killen , to name a few. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossi_1983 Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 The Bordeaux team that brought through Lizarazu, dugarry and Zidane at about the same time was quite impressive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FORTHCLYDE Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 Don't know about West Ham today but as well as Moore Peters and Hurst they also produced players who went on to be managers Malcolm Allison, John Bond, Dave Sexton, Frank O'Farrell and Harry Redknapp. I think they were mostly local Essex lads. Do Hearts have a scout in that area today? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie-Brown Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 Top three in terms of dedication to their clubs are Guy Roux - Auxere Lobanovski - Dinamo Kiev Dario Grady - Crewe Ferguson & Wenger deserve a mention as does Jim McLean whilst at Dundee United. More importantly who is the best manager to progress Hearts young players? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bilston angel Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 Its moved on a stage further nowadays, it would be impossible to build a team of youngsters from Scotland alone, thats why the big teams are scouring the globe for young talent, and targetting promising players at lower division teams by offering money they can't turn down. To a certain extent thats what we've been doing and should be continuing to do on all these fronts. It's a man to pull all that together and develop the talent coming through right into the first team, which is not happening because of the clutter up with second rate players in the way. Obviously the first team is the main priority, whether the manager could combine these responsibilities in his duties would be difficult but it is vital at least that he would have to work hand in glove with the person in charge of youth at every turn to ensure a smooth progression, which again is not happening. Possibly the present youth coaches/scouts could fulfil the role they are doing, but who is the man to make all this happen for us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie-Brown Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 Its moved on a stage further nowadays, it would be impossible to build a team of youngsters from Scotland alone, thats why the big teams are scouring the globe for young talent, and targetting promising players at lower division teams by offering money they can't turn down. To a certain extent thats what we've been doing and should be continuing to do on all these fronts. It's a man to pull all that together and develop the talent coming through right into the first team, which is not happening because of the clutter up with second rate players in the way. Obviously the first team is the main priority, whether the manager could combine these responsibilities in his duties would be difficult but it is vital at least that he would have to work hand in glove with the person in charge of youth at every turn to ensure a smooth progression, which again is not happening. Possibly the present youth coaches/scouts could fulfil the role they are doing, but who is the man to make all this happen for us? Good post - who indeed Bilston Angel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coco Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 Malofeev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Harris Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 Good post - who indeed Bilston Angel? Billy Davies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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