var to stop the cheating

[avhudtheteeshirt]

4 hours ago, poultry said:

I thought the "red card" three times was Douglas Ross the tory leader, it was shown on the Scottish news last night?

[Das Viertel Hearts]

12 hours ago, Boyces beard said:

yip with var we get a point Wattie, its sickening realy

 

With the way the game ran then it's clear Hearts may very well have won 3 points if not forced into chasing the game. 

 

Incredible this is happening. And was allowed to happen.  

[haj]

My observation having watched 25 odd years of games against the old firm.

 

a) OF start on the front foot, are 2 or 3 up by half time = ref manages the game neutrally knowing it won't cost him a broken  window

 

b) OF start the game slowly and the game is an even contest = twitchy bum time for the ref. He starts giving 50/50's to the Glasgow team in reaction to growing unrest in the stands. (This is the killer as it gives the momentum to them and makes what is an already tough job virtually impossible. This will also go unnoticed by VAR). Once the Glasgow team have capitalised on this and scored a couple, the ref will revert to plan A or sometimes even give the opposition a couple of 'kind' decisions to 'redress the balance' knowing the game is done. 

 

c) OF play poorly and it's looking like it could be heading to a home draw/defeat = ref absolutely shits the bed. Time to press the nuclear button. This is where your mental penalties and goals that are 2 yards offside come in. Once the game is done it'll get swept under the carpet.

 

This isn't just the case for us either. This happens to any and every Scottish team playing in Glasgow. Also, nobody is saying Celtic and Rangers aren't the best sides in Scotland - of course they are. But let's not pretend the games aren't refereed in the direction of a win for the old firm.

 

[TexasAndy]

How do we guarantee neutrality with VAR?  Panel would probably be made up of people of an OF persuasion.  Then ultimately the final decisions sit with the same corrupt officials.

[Der Kaiser]

1 hour ago, Locky said:

A new job for Billy Connolly?

 

[Rogue Daddy]

1 hour ago, julienbrellier said:

We've got to bring VAR in at least to get rid of the offside goals the old firm always seem to get against us, it happened recently with the other lot - Morelos at Tynecastle. The truth is the refs are shit-scared of their numerous and obsessive fan bases and if in doubt EVERY TIME call is for Rangers and Celtic. It's a disgrace to be honest and happens every single week whoever they are playing.

 

I agree though apart from offsides I am sure they will find a way of VAR favouring them, let's see but it surely can't be worse than it is now. When he stopped the game for a leg injury I honestly couldn't believe what I was watching, it's not even in the rules of football, unbelievable

This is where the other clubs (outside the uglies) have to stand up and insist that VAR is operated by and at a completely neutral venue - a sort of control room, manned by non-Scottish personnel. At least this way, any decisions against the uglies won't result in the refs property/family being subject to vandalism and abuse by their knuckle-dragging fans when a decision goes against them. Staggeringly pathetic that it should come to such measures - but that's the uglies for you - the worst of the worst and protected at all costs.

[poultry]

1 hour ago, avhudtheteeshirt said:

I thought the "red card" three times was Douglas Ross the tory leader, it was shown on the Scottish news last night?

Have no idea. Just saw this on social media.

[The Old Tolbooth]

2 hours ago, TexasAndy said:

How do we guarantee neutrality with VAR?  Panel would probably be made up of people of an OF persuasion.  Then ultimately the final decisions sit with the same corrupt officials.

 

The only way we can guarantee that there will be impartiality in Scottish football with VAR, is if we farm it out to a foreign country to make the decisions for us, that way we can be rest assured that it will be looked at on a level playing field, however you wouldn't be surprised if they (the OF) greased their palms as well somehow, but clubs should get together and state they don't want it unless it's run abroad. 

[InternationalJambo]

2 hours ago, haj said:

My observation having watched 25 odd years of games against the old firm.

 

a) OF start on the front foot, are 2 or 3 up by half time = ref manages the game neutrally knowing it won't cost him a broken  window

 

b) OF start the game slowly and the game is an even contest = twitchy bum time for the ref. He starts giving 50/50's to the Glasgow team in reaction to growing unrest in the stands. (This is the killer as it gives the momentum to them and makes what is an already tough job virtually impossible. This will also go unnoticed by VAR). Once the Glasgow team have capitalised on this and scored a couple, the ref will revert to plan A or sometimes even give the opposition a couple of 'kind' decisions to 'redress the balance' knowing the game is done. 

 

c) OF play poorly and it's looking like it could be heading to a home draw/defeat = ref absolutely shits the bed. Time to press the nuclear button. This is where your mental penalties and goals that are 2 yards offside come in. Once the game is done it'll get swept under the carpet.

 

This isn't just the case for us either. This happens to any and every Scottish team playing in Glasgow. Also, nobody is saying Celtic and Rangers aren't the best sides in Scotland - of course they are. But let's not pretend the games aren't refereed in the direction of a win for the old firm.

 

You are bang on the money here. 

[Ak47]

I speak to a guy whilst walking the dog who is an ex Scottish Referee, he is now a referee advisor. Met him this morning and he was telling me that VAR is coming if not next season it will be the season after.

 

He said it will be budget Var where the control room is in  a van outside the ground and that one of the delays is training people to do it as Scottish officials wont be able to do both jobs.

 

He also said that the linesman that didn't flag for offside has 2 laddies training with Hearts.

 

He seemed more interested in talking about how out of order Robbie's comments were, and these decision's swing in roundabouts etc, shows us what we are up against.

[SUTOL]

4 hours ago, Ak47 said:

I speak to a guy whilst walking the dog who is an ex Scottish Referee, he is now a referee advisor. Met him this morning and he was telling me that VAR is coming if not next season it will be the season after.

 

He said it will be budget Var where the control room is in  a van outside the ground and that one of the delays is training people to do it as Scottish officials wont be able to do both jobs.

 

He also said that the linesman that didn't flag for offside has 2 laddies training with Hearts.

 

He seemed more interested in talking about how out of order Robbie's comments were, and these decision's swing in roundabouts etc, shows us what we are up against.

 

Did he say it was offside? 

 

 

Did he mention the stopping of play for Jota and the wrong team getting the bounce ball? 

 

 

[portobellojambo1]

19 hours ago, wattie exploited said:

how long before we get VAR to stop rangers and celtic getting away with off side goals week after week 

its hard enough to beat them with out the lines man cheating with his blinkers on 

 

VAR in Scotland will never work without one stipulation.. Just using last night as an example, the team who feel that a decision needs questioned must initially put their concern to the referee. If HMFC had put their concerns to Madden does anyone genuinely think that having given the goal he would then have referred that to VAR. And if there was a VAR team to refer it to what likelihood is there that said team would be free of people who would otherwise make a decision based on which side of the OF they favour, either football wise or politically. The relevant stipulation would have to be that all officials, both at the games and in the VAR studios, would have to be from overseas countries, outwith the British Isles, which includes the Republic of Ireland. (by the way the linesman you refer to, i.e. the one on the main stand side, is a former ST holder at Parkhead, and it probably didn't help that Neilson and Madden have never gotten on at all).

[Seymour M Hersh]

Would never stop it up here. 

[manaliveits105]

That linesman looks a Celtic wrong un 

[Nucky Thompson]

6 hours ago, Ak47 said:

 

 

He said it will be budget Var where the control room is in  a van outside the ground and that one of the delays is training people to do it as Scottish officials wont be able to do both jobs.

 

 Backwater Scotland. Freeeeeeeeedum

 

 

[Nucky Thompson]

10 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

That linesman looks a Celtic wrong un 

He certainly does. Rat face and beady eyes 

[OTT]

Its exhausting and really off putting tbh. Fans of ALL clubs put so much into the game in Scotland. Season tickets aren't cheap, walk ups aren't cheap. Following your team home and away isn't cheap. I'm sick of playing them 8 times a season + cups and knowing we're not just playing the 11 on the park, we're also relying on the referee not deciding we're going to lose, or the linesman deciding he's going to make an 'honest' mistake. 

 

I was thinking about it earlier today, and the best comparison I can think of is, when we play Livingston we're a bigger club with more money to spend so should expect to win, our players should be of a higher standard etc. Well, if we have a bad game, Livi will beat us. If our players don't turn up, they'll be swept aside. That 5-0 game was a real dull one. Livingston also raise their game against us (as do many of the so called 'wee' clubs). Equally, we raise our game against Celtic and Rangers, but the difference is when Celtic and Rangers have a bad game, its not enough. We also need the officials to actually do their jobs. Refereeing Livi v Hearts, is totally different to Celtic v Hearts because the referee who invariably will be from the west won't give a **** who wins between Hearts & Livi, but against Celtic they will because they live slap bang in the middle of the OF heartlands. 

 

The standard of officiating in Scotland is awful. There seems to be a total lack of competition and an over promotion of those from the Lanarkshire, Renfewshire and Glasgow refereeing associations (We've had the same FIFA list referees for ages, why? Madden isn't that good). IMO Hearts should be in dialogue with Hibs, both Dundee clubs and Aberdeen about some sort of joint statement about the general lack of quality and the perceived unfairness in who gets promoted demonstrated by the lack of east coast officials. The stats of which associations referees go on to be Cat 1 & FIFA listed will 100% exist because the individual associations will record who their members are. Investigate the stats and use the evidence to skewer the SFA for bias and demand change. Levein had that stat about there only being 1 Edinburgh referee in a Scottish cup final in over 100 years for example. When collated together this sort of evidence is impossible to explain away and I think as stakeholders of the game the clubs should be representing their fans reviewing this sort of data. Robbie mentioning about the 'Glasgow blink' suggests there is an understanding among coaches that in Glasgow you don't get decisions. That warrants further investigation, no? In Edinburgh, Dundee, Aberdeen you get decisions, so why not Glasgow?

 

VAR worries me because I don't believe we'll benefit from it. I think we'll see the same 'honest mistakes' compounded with nitty gritty VAR technicalities to ruin more games. (a finger tip offside, shirt pull 4 moves before the goal etc.). 

 

Maybe someone could ask the foundation about that and see if it could be escalated to the club? - Refereeing stats, if we're all just paranoid the stats will prove that. Otherwise we are right and change must happen. 

Edited December 3, 2021 by OTT

[bawheed]

23 hours ago, Thomaso said:

The OF don’t want VAR! Why would they

Neither of the bigot brothers, are that keen on TV live footage of there games other than there own streaming platform ....I wonder why? 

[bawheed]

2 hours ago, OTT said:

Its exhausting and really off putting tbh. Fans of ALL clubs put so much into the game in Scotland. Season tickets aren't cheap, walk ups aren't cheap. Following your team home and away isn't cheap. I'm sick of playing them 8 times a season + cups and knowing we're not just playing the 11 on the park, we're also relying on the referee not deciding we're going to lose, or the linesman deciding he's going to make an 'honest' mistake. 

 

I was thinking about it earlier today, and the best comparison I can think of is, when we play Livingston we're a bigger club with more money to spend so should expect to win, our players should be of a higher standard etc. Well, if we have a bad game, Livi will beat us. If our players don't turn up, they'll be swept aside. That 5-0 game was a real dull one. Livingston also raise their game against us (as do many of the so called 'wee' clubs). Equally, we raise our game against Celtic and Rangers, but the difference is when Celtic and Rangers have a bad game, its not enough. We also need the officials to actually do their jobs. Refereeing Livi v Hearts, is totally different to Celtic v Hearts because the referee who invariably will be from the west won't give a **** who wins between Hearts & Livi, but against Celtic they will because they live slap bang in the middle of the OF heartlands. 

 

The standard of officiating in Scotland is awful. There seems to be a total lack of competition and an over promotion of those from the Lanarkshire, Renfewshire and Glasgow refereeing associations (We've had the same FIFA list referees for ages, why? Madden isn't that good). IMO Hearts should be in dialogue with Hibs, both Dundee clubs and Aberdeen about some sort of joint statement about the general lack of quality and the perceived unfairness in who gets promoted demonstrated by the lack of east coast officials. The stats of which associations referees go on to be Cat 1 & FIFA listed will 100% exist because the individual associations will record who their members are. Investigate the stats and use the evidence to skewer the SFA for bias and demand change. Levein had that stat about there only being 1 Edinburgh referee in a Scottish cup final in over 100 years for example. When collated together this sort of evidence is impossible to explain away and I think as stakeholders of the game the clubs should be representing their fans reviewing this sort of data. Robbie mentioning about the 'Glasgow blink' suggests there is an understanding among coaches that in Glasgow you don't get decisions. That warrants further investigation, no? In Edinburgh, Dundee, Aberdeen you get decisions, so why not Glasgow?

 

VAR worries me because I don't believe we'll benefit from it. I think we'll see the same 'honest mistakes' compounded with nitty gritty VAR technicalities to ruin more games. (a finger tip offside, shirt pull 4 moves before the goal etc.). 

 

Maybe someone could ask the foundation about that and see if it could be escalated to the club? - Refereeing stats, if we're all just paranoid the stats will prove that. Otherwise we are right and change must happen. 

Best post have seen this year, and totally spot on.

Well done.

[Tom Hardy’s Dug]

My position on VAR hasn’t changed - we should have it. I doubt it will be long before uefa mandate it on members leagues anyway. 
 

It won’t be perfect but it will weed out some of the utter shite - particularly if automated or semi-automated offside technology works.

 

And it should be accompanied by reviews on big screens in stadiums like rugby.

[JackLadd]

Will be still be Mason McBoyne or Paddy Murphy as video assistant.

[part_time_jambo]

13 hours ago, avhudtheteeshirt said:

I thought the "red card" three times was Douglas Ross the tory leader, it was shown on the Scottish news last night?

Don’t spoil a good conspiracy theory.

[south morocco]

5 minutes ago, Tom Hardy’s Dug said:

My position on VAR hasn’t changed - we should have it. I doubt it will be long before uefa mandate it on members leagues anyway. 
 

It won’t be perfect but it will weed out some of the utter shite - particularly if automated or semi-automated offside technology works.

 

And it should be accompanied by reviews on big screens in stadiums like rugby.

I agree, the big screen is vital to show offside, goalline and other contentious decisions.  It’ll weed out some of the shite at least

[Jim Panzee]

3 hours ago, OTT said:

Its exhausting and really off putting tbh. Fans of ALL clubs put so much into the game in Scotland. Season tickets aren't cheap, walk ups aren't cheap. Following your team home and away isn't cheap. I'm sick of playing them 8 times a season + cups and knowing we're not just playing the 11 on the park, we're also relying on the referee not deciding we're going to lose, or the linesman deciding he's going to make an 'honest' mistake. 

 

I was thinking about it earlier today, and the best comparison I can think of is, when we play Livingston we're a bigger club with more money to spend so should expect to win, our players should be of a higher standard etc. Well, if we have a bad game, Livi will beat us. If our players don't turn up, they'll be swept aside. That 5-0 game was a real dull one. Livingston also raise their game against us (as do many of the so called 'wee' clubs). Equally, we raise our game against Celtic and Rangers, but the difference is when Celtic and Rangers have a bad game, its not enough. We also need the officials to actually do their jobs. Refereeing Livi v Hearts, is totally different to Celtic v Hearts because the referee who invariably will be from the west won't give a **** who wins between Hearts & Livi, but against Celtic they will because they live slap bang in the middle of the OF heartlands. 

 

The standard of officiating in Scotland is awful. There seems to be a total lack of competition and an over promotion of those from the Lanarkshire, Renfewshire and Glasgow refereeing associations (We've had the same FIFA list referees for ages, why? Madden isn't that good). IMO Hearts should be in dialogue with Hibs, both Dundee clubs and Aberdeen about some sort of joint statement about the general lack of quality and the perceived unfairness in who gets promoted demonstrated by the lack of east coast officials. The stats of which associations referees go on to be Cat 1 & FIFA listed will 100% exist because the individual associations will record who their members are. Investigate the stats and use the evidence to skewer the SFA for bias and demand change. Levein had that stat about there only being 1 Edinburgh referee in a Scottish cup final in over 100 years for example. When collated together this sort of evidence is impossible to explain away and I think as stakeholders of the game the clubs should be representing their fans reviewing this sort of data. Robbie mentioning about the 'Glasgow blink' suggests there is an understanding among coaches that in Glasgow you don't get decisions. That warrants further investigation, no? In Edinburgh, Dundee, Aberdeen you get decisions, so why not Glasgow?

 

VAR worries me because I don't believe we'll benefit from it. I think we'll see the same 'honest mistakes' compounded with nitty gritty VAR technicalities to ruin more games. (a finger tip offside, shirt pull 4 moves before the goal etc.). 

 

Maybe someone could ask the foundation about that and see if it could be escalated to the club? - Refereeing stats, if we're all just paranoid the stats will prove that. Otherwise we are right and change must happen. 

Very good post.

 

would prefer foreign refs. 
 

agree Lanarkshire refs will be shitting themselves giving decisions against the bigot brothers.

[maroonsgotop]

On 02/12/2021 at 21:47, wattie exploited said:

how long before we get VAR to stop rangers and celtic getting away with off side goals week after week 

its hard enough to beat them with out the lines man cheating with his blinkers on 

not sure var will stop the obvious corruption that is Scottish Football set up to look after two teams as it will be the same corrupt officials sitting in Ibrox/Celtic Park/Doncaster's living room. 

[Tom Hardy’s Dug]

As an aside **** knows what corruption happened behind the scenes to stop the 11-1 “block vote” being changed when the Huns died. 
 

Very spineless of Scottish football - we only have ourselves to blame.

[WDJ87]

I'm shocked... 🙄

[wattie exploited]

it was that far off side you really t need VAR to tell it was well off side and all these ***** like Berra saying it was close really **** Off !!!!!!!!!!!!! 

[upgotheheads]

I've never really been a fan of VAR because of the interruptions, but it will at least make it very difficult for the Fans at Ibrox and Parkhead to overrule the referee. Games will routinely finishing around 5;05pm though.

[DesertDawg]

On 03/12/2021 at 10:38, portobellojambo1 said:

 

VAR in Scotland will never work without one stipulation.. Just using last night as an example, the team who feel that a decision needs questioned must initially put their concern to the referee. If HMFC had put their concerns to Madden does anyone genuinely think that having given the goal he would then have referred that to VAR. And if there was a VAR team to refer it to what likelihood is there that said team would be free of people who would otherwise make a decision based on which side of the OF they favour, either football wise or politically. The relevant stipulation would have to be that all officials, both at the games and in the VAR studios, would have to be from overseas countries, outwith the British Isles, which includes the Republic of Ireland. (by the way the linesman you refer to, i.e. the one on the main stand side, is a former ST holder at Parkhead, and it probably didn't help that Neilson and Madden have never gotten on at all).

 

[DesertDawg]

With this kind of comment from Crawford Allan, you may well be right.

 

Allan says "VAR's there to fix clear and obvious errors", telling BBC Radio Scotland's Sportsound: "You're not trying to prove a decision was correct, you're trying to say, 'was the decision clearly wrong?'

"VAR will be there to help with the big decisions, the factual ones and the ones that are clearly wrong."

 

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/59532032

 

[Spellczech]

On 02/12/2021 at 21:49, Hmfc1965 said:

It all depends who's making the VAR decisions. 

I've got no confidence it would be any better. 

There is absolutely no reason why Scottish offcials could not operate VAR for the Dutch or someone, and they do it reciprocally for us.

[Spellczech]

On 04/12/2021 at 21:24, upgotheheads said:

I've never really been a fan of VAR because of the interruptions, but it will at least make it very difficult for the Fans at Ibrox and Parkhead to overrule the referee. Games will routinely finishing around 5;05pm though.

Could be done on a challenge basis like in tennis - only captain or manager can challenge - 2-3 challenges per match and you lose a challenge if you are wrong to challenge. Might have the fun situation where your striker is the captain against Ross county and your CB against the OF...!

Edited December 6, 2021 by Spellczech

[Hmfc1965]

3 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

There is absolutely no reason why Scottish offcials could not operate VAR for the Dutch or someone, and they do it reciprocally for us.

That would work for me.

I doubt that's the way it would pan out though. 

[Canscot]

1 hour ago, Spellczech said:

There is absolutely no reason why Scottish offcials could not operate VAR for the Dutch or someone, and they do it reciprocally for us.

Do you honestly think the Dutch or anyone else would fall for that scam😉

[Spellczech]

38 minutes ago, Canscot said:

Do you honestly think the Dutch or anyone else would fall for that scam😉

You'll have to explain this one to me - why a scam? You reckon we are the only country where local officials are regarded as dodgy? See Jude Bellingham's comments at the weekend...

[Canscot]

7 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

You'll have to explain this one to me - why a scam? You reckon we are the only country where local officials are regarded as dodgy? See Jude Bellingham's comments at the weekend...

Just the well known/regarded fact that Scottish officials are, well, crap. 
Most countries might see it as a trade down not a trade up or even an equal trade off. Just my opinion though. 

[Spellczech]

10 minutes ago, Canscot said:

Just the well known/regarded fact that Scottish officials are, well, crap. 
Most countries might see it as a trade down not a trade up or even an equal trade off. Just my opinion though. 

Is it well-known? 2 of them are UEFA First Category Referees (Madden & Beaton). AFAIK they are regarded as being fine as long as their local teams are not involved...

[Canscot]

Maybe so but I have seen and maybe so have you,that those two in particular are usually involved ( not all the time) in controversial decisions in games involving us and a lot of teams other than O.F. Again. Just my opinion. 

[Tommy Brown]

On 03/12/2021 at 08:39, Das Viertel Hearts said:

 

Then should sub contract this sorry mess to the Bundesliga guys in Köln who may be a bit more less prone to influence. 

 

That was in cold light of morning a truly breathtaking error made.

German var official advises Madden/Collum/Beaton/Clancy etc to have another look.

 

On doing so, Scottish ref decides their own decision was correct  all along.

[Spellczech]

5 minutes ago, Tommy Brown said:

German var official advises Madden/Collum/Beaton/Clancy etc to have another look.

 

On doing so, Scottish ref decides their own decision was correct  all along.

Unlikely - The reason Brines got away with it re the ridiculous Zaliukas red card years back was because the review was not real time and public. He was asked if he made a mistake on viewing TV footage after the game, and he'll have said "no at the time it looked to me as I decided at the time" - it is always moot after the final whistle has gone, as we all found again last week. During the match is another matter... For instance when Smith got penalised for taking too long to take the throw after it was wrongly awarded to Hearts - I'll bet that was the 4th official telling Madden that the same useless assistant got that one wrong too...

Edited December 6, 2021 by Spellczech

[wattie exploited]

just watched the Everton game last night and they had two goals chalked off for  offside and it was like a baw hair just shows you how much of a cheat that lines man was the other night at the Celtic game not even close to being on side     by al least 2 feet !!!!!!!!!! 

[Rogue Daddy]

22 hours ago, Spellczech said:

There is absolutely no reason why Scottish offcials could not operate VAR for the Dutch or someone, and they do it reciprocally for us.

This is a really good idea. While our refs are, IMO, bias, I reckon a lot of their 'subconscious' decisions are made in the OFs favour, by fear of abuse/attack etc. from the uglies orks, if given against them. If VAR was run by an outside body, at least our officials can officiate a game against the OF without the fear of retribution, for giving a decision against them. Absolutely pathetic that it's come to this... but it's a very good idea.

[gator]

36 minutes ago, wattie exploited said:

just watched the Everton game last night and they had two goals chalked off for  offside and it was like a baw hair just shows you how much of a cheat that lines man was the other night at the Celtic game not even close to being on side     by al least 2 feet !!!!!!!!!! 

Yep, VAR isn't perfect, I watch how poorly it can be administered in MLS however I think overall it gets clear mistakes overturned, there is a reason the cheats from Glasgow don't want it!

[wattie exploited]

7 hours ago, gator said:

Yep, VAR isn't perfect, I watch how poorly it can be administered in MLS however I think overall it gets clear mistakes overturned, there is a reason the cheats from Glasgow don't want it!

you better believe they don't want it as they wouldn't get away with all the dodgy off side goals and penalty's that they get !!!!!!!!! 

[Tommy Brown]

On 03/12/2021 at 23:16, south morocco said:

I agree, the big screen is vital to show offside, goalline and other contentious decisions.  It’ll weed out some of the shite at least

I don't think the offside decisions that we see on TV are shown on the screens at the match. Just the decision.

 

I could be wrong.