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TYNECASTLE STADIUM UPGRADE POTENTIAL?


chrisyboy7
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Tom Hardy’s Dug

Any sizeable money that could be put into innovative ground expansion in the next 5-7 years must be put into the team first.

 

We need to build the opportunity to be continually full by building the team first and regularly doing well in Europe. 
 

That will generate the additional money to start thinking about what we can do with tynecastle - if anything.

 

We’ll get more money with relative success in Europe than an extra 2,500 seats so we need to focus on that first.

Edited by Tom Hardy’s Dug
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9 minutes ago, Japan Jambo said:

it's over 60 years since we averaged over 20k in a season.

:lol: no. Rather hard to average over 20k when you have an 18k stadium.

 

Before the introduction of all seating we averaged 22k in 91-92. More recently, we averaged over 20k in 17/18 when we had games at Murrayfield.

 

https://www.fitbastats.com/hearts/club_records_league_attendance.php

 

EDIT oops, that site seems off. This one is a bit easier to see.

 

https://www.footballwebpages.co.uk/heart-of-midlothian/attendances/2017-2018

 

We had 24k for a match against Aberdeen at Wheatfield. That's an indication that there's latent interest in big non-OF games. (On top of the 33k for the Murrayfield match against Rangers)

Edited by Led Tasso
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3 minutes ago, Rick Sanchez said:

Curry stand is an absolute shout btw 👌

 

Big screen above the Roseburn so nae away fans can see it.

A large projection of the iconic Rudi moment with 6 hobos in the background from 2012 across the entrance to the Roseburn when we play them 

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gorgie rd eh11
2 hours ago, chrisyboy7 said:

Can i ask how long you have had a season ticket at Easter Road.....You really should go and derail another thread as this one is for the ones that know the answers not the spoon burners.....Seriously you sound like you have nothing better to do than express negativity.....

 

I was asking a simple bunch of questions.....you clearly have no idea....My queston was not what the costs would be but what was possible....pmsl....join a reading class....

 

 

Trying way to hard.

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Is it not the case that roof trusses are tied into the floodlight trusses?

 

I don't know if this is correct but I'm guessing the roof trustees are in tension, holding the roof structure but the actual load of the roof truss is transferred through the floodlight trusses into compression. 

 

So if we wanted to expand, we would need to change the entire roof structure? Which would cost tens of millions. 

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1 minute ago, Cruyff said:

 

Is it not the case that roof trusses are tied into the floodlight trusses?

 

I don't know if this is correct but I'm guessing the roof trustees are in tension, holding the roof structure but the actual load of the roof truss is transferred through the floodlight trusses into compression. 

 

So if we wanted to expand, we would need to change the entire roof structure? Which would cost tens of millions. 


You are spot on! Can’t believe some are going round in circles again on this! 🙈

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Tom Hardy’s Dug
2 minutes ago, Cruyff said:

 

Is it not the case that roof trusses are tied into the floodlight trusses?

 

I don't know if this is correct but I'm guessing the roof trustees are in tension, holding the roof structure but the actual load of the roof truss is transferred through the floodlight trusses into compression. 

 

So if we wanted to expand, we would need to change the entire roof structure? Which would cost tens of millions. 

I think you’re right but I think with some mental supports in place we could do something with the Wheatfield that wouldn’t require the whole roof to come down. 
 

I am no engineer however.

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Sir Craig Gordon
9 minutes ago, Led Tasso said:

 

From a financial perspective, in order to make a seat profitable on 10 year financing, you need to sell it about 6-8 times per season, not every game.

 

From an atmosphere perspective, we have to decide how many empty seats we're willing to tolerate on a regular basis though.

 

In the Murrayfield year while the Main was under construction, we averaged around 25k fans and maxed out north of 35k for a Rangers match, IIRC. If we can make the loans and the planning permission work, I think the support is there.

Aberdeen brought 7k fans and Rangers had something like 15k fans there which bumps up the average.

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Just now, Thomaso said:


You are spot on! Can’t believe some are going round in circles again on this! 🙈

I know you're in construction and worked on the glass—would a new roof structure really cost tens of millions? I would have thought more along the lines of £2-4 million. Will not worth it just to fill the corners but still not tens of millions.

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5 minutes ago, Led Tasso said:

:lol: no. Rather hard to average over 20k when you have an 18k stadium.

 

Before the introduction of all seating we averaged 22k in 91-92. More recently, we averaged over 20k in 17/18 when we had games at Murrayfield.

 

https://www.fitbastats.com/hearts/club_records_league_attendance.php

 

Those figures don't look right. London Hearts has a home average of just over 13k for the 91-92 season. I would go to them for Hearts stats every time.

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7 minutes ago, Kiwidoug said:

Spot on.  When we start winning trophies we can start looking at the stadium.  In the meantime, spend our money on the squad.  Better contracts and bonuses for our best players.  Buy players we can afford.

 

Take on the OF.

 

Part of my frustration with this style of thinking is that it only takes into account right now. if you sit still you'll be passed by. The structure of Scottish football means we play the OF & Hibs twice each at home, which are capacity crowds meaning 6 games a season we have full capacity, additionally you have Aberdeen which attracts a decent number. I think we'd have full capacity still at 23k. The playing each other 4 times a season nonsense isn't going away because it suits the OF and shitty little clubs like St Johnstone, St Mirren and Killie depend on the away end keeping them afloat. There are 8 games a season where you're almost certainly looking at 80%+ sold. Why not make this system work for us instead of trying to tread water in a rat race?

 

We can't afford better contracts and because of how poorly financed Scottish football is, the onus is on the club to raise the majority of its cash itself (unlike England where TV money saves the day). That means we'll continue to lose our best players and never sustain any true success which will keep us locked in based on only thinking about right now. Because we'll be in the same position in 5 years time, 10 years time etc. 

 

An additional 3k for example allows us to pay better than Hibs or Aberdeen sustainably, attracting and retaining our better players which allows us to compete more consistently. More so, players want to play in front of bigger crowds. It would be yet another selling point for the club.

 

If we had the money to be able to offer Nicolson, Paterson, Walker, Hickey, Souttar just enough to get that final contract extension then suddenly we're getting 7 figure transfer fees semi-regularly. I'm not saying they still might run their contract down, but it makes it more of a decision for them. 

 

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1 minute ago, Sir Craig Gordon said:

Aberdeen brought 7k fans and Rangers had something like 15k fans there which bumps up the average.

 

From a purely financial standpoint, who cares? They paid.

 

From an atmosphere standpoint, no, you don't want empty seats or opposing fans filling up the space. But Liverpool and Everton still sell seats to each others fans on derby day and cash the checks just the same.

 

4 minutes ago, JamboGraham said:

 

Those figures don't look right. London Hearts has a home average of just over 13k for the 91-92 season. I would go to them for Hearts stats every time.

 

Agreed -- I edited and looked for a different site after I posted. I hadn't found attendances on London Hearts or else I would have used them. Looking at his chart now, that looks lower than I expected, and I wonder if that's just home ticket sales. Also possible I'm just wrong.

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2 hours ago, SE16 3LN said:

I'm surprised nobody thought about moving to Murrayfield.

The Pieman was a visionary. How did we not see it at the time? 

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2 hours ago, Sir Craig Gordon said:

In our 147 years, when have we ever out grown our stadium? What makes you think we are suddenly going to now? I said on an other thread that 22k would probably be an ideal size, especially for Hibs, Celtic & Rangers games, but it's only ideal if were are consistently top 3. We've never done that in my 25 years of following the club.

Probably in the heyday of football way back. We probably crammed more fans in than we should have. 
 

However, most were on the bigger occasion and the crucial thing really is having consistently large gates. 
 

Our crowds are probably as consistent as they’ve ever been but you’d have to wonder if we’d ever fill a bigger Tynie during a strong league challenge and get near 30-35,000 if the stadium was ever that big?  Back in the 50s etc... ,and even the 80s to a lesser extent, you’d jump from 10,000 v Motherwell to anything over 25,000 v The Old Firm. All varying crowd sizes though and of course they had large supports at the game too.

 

I started going to games regularly in the early 80s and even with the fine sides later on in that decade, you’d still see some low gates just creeping over 10,000, maybe even under.  Into the 90s aswell.  Levein’s decent first spell in the naughties saw gates toil to hit 12,000 sometimes.  
 

We’re doing well just now, imo. 

 

 

 


 

 

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Just now, Tom Hardy’s Dug said:

I think you’re right but I think with some mental supports in place we could do something with the Wheatfield that wouldn’t require the whole roof to come down. 
 

I am no engineer however.

Im not an engineer either but I have studied structural mechanics and architecture among other things. I'd imagine if we were to replace the floodlight trusses with a vertical pilaster or column then it would fall right in the middle of a corner stand obstructing views. If we wanted to fill in the corners without removing the roof, I'd imagine we would have to cantilever the existing structure or replace it.

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21 minutes ago, Led Tasso said:

:lol: no. Rather hard to average over 20k when you have an 18k stadium.

 

Before the introduction of all seating we averaged 22k in 91-92. More recently, we averaged over 20k in 17/18 when we had games at Murrayfield.

 

https://www.fitbastats.com/hearts/club_records_league_attendance.php

 

EDIT oops, that site seems off. This one is a bit easier to see.

 

https://www.footballwebpages.co.uk/heart-of-midlothian/attendances/2017-2018

 

We had 24k for a match against Aberdeen at Wheatfield. That's an indication that there's latent interest in big non-OF games. (On top of the 33k for the Murrayfield match against Rangers)

 

https://www.londonhearts.com/charts/averagel.htm

 

don't doubt there is the odd game that we can fill the stadium but you can't build a stadium for a handful of games. Better to have atmosphere surely?

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2 hours ago, Niemi’s gloves said:


To be fair, one of the numerous Hearts mugs I possess, bought perhaps 30 years ago, is labelled “Tyncastle Stadium”.

I’m pretty sure it came from the club shop! 

I hope we have a better merchandise buyer these days! :D

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13 minutes ago, Led Tasso said:

I know you're in construction and worked on the glass—would a new roof structure really cost tens of millions? I would have thought more along the lines of £2-4 million. Will not worth it just to fill the corners but still not tens of millions.


A new roof structure would have to be on a cantilever support design. To incorporate that not only would the existing roofs have to be removed and replaced to 4 stands, but the compete facade to the main stand would have to be removed to allow the cantilever supports to be built. 
The existing steel floodlight towers and the massive horizontal trusses would also have to be romoved - no easy task in its own right.

The costs for this kind of redesign is frankly huge - it’s just not practical.

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Unless we win titles it’s enough. If we ever get to the stage we restrict the uglies to one section then it’s sad that we can’t extend but it’s just a fact of life.
The derby is different in that as long as we give each other a stand then fans will miss out. But I wouldn’t change the derby arrangement 

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InternationalJambo
1 hour ago, Led Tasso said:

Budge and Co. made Tynecastle as absolutely large as it can be, in terms of total occupancy, so long as the large ethanol tanks at our end of NBDC are still there. Unless NBDC can be convinced to move those tanks further away from the stadium or if they relocate for some other reason, we cannot expand.

 

However, neither of those are impossible to imagine. The problem isn't just that the distillery is there, but that there are large tanks of refined ethanol located at the end of their property closest to Tynecastle. I believe years and years ago NBDC told Hearts that they could move the tanks but that they would want Hearts to help pay for it and the cost would be £1.5m, a number which I assume has gone up with inflation since then.

 

Should we decide to do it, the obvious (to me) next step in Tynecastle redevelopment is a major expansion or rebuild of the Wheatfield. I don't know if it would be better to cantilever a new tier over top of the existing seats or build a whole new stand, but it's the one space on the Tynecastle property that has plenty of room for expansion, and would give any new upper seats a grand view of the castle over the the top of the main. The total cost would probably be in the £15-20m, although if an expansion option that left the existing stand largely in tact existed, it might be lower, but I doubt it.

 

However, the club just got done paying off the debt for the redeveloped main stand, I don't think we should be eager to rush into debt so soon.

 

Maybe in 5 years.

 

Spot on here. See liverpool with their expansion of the anfield road stand, similar could be done at Tynie but as you said it’ll be 5 years minimum. Let’s see where this new era takes us first. 

Edited by InternationalJambo
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2 hours ago, Niemi’s gloves said:


To be fair, one of the numerous Hearts mugs I possess, bought perhaps 30 years ago, is labelled “Tyncastle Stadium”.

I’m pretty sure it came from the club shop! 


I assume bought during the Pieman era?

As part of “modernising the Clubs image” he changed the Club crest and changed Tynecastle to “Stadium” from “Park”! 😏

Edited by Thomaso
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2 hours ago, Stu_HMFC said:

Roseburn and Wheatfield knocked down and a new two tier stand joined up like St James would be ideal . Just a dream .

That would be fantastic, but I fear just a dream. Finances aside, you'd need to knock down a bit of the old school building, and you'd need to be rid of any distillery-related restrictions, and even then, there may be planning permission struggles! 

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Lord Beni of Gorgie

Only allow 400 away fans. 19500 is enough I'm sure. 

 

Moving away isn't an option I don't think. However West Ham moved from Upton Park. 

 

Scottish football would need some sort of revolution though to see it being a thing rather than a Monday afternoon bunfight 

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Purchase land and rebuild Wheatfield stand with cantilever roof. Then do same with Gorgie and Roseburn ends. Leaving the main till be really need to as that would be the expensive one!

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12 minutes ago, Thomaso said:


A new roof structure would have to be on a cantilever support design. To incorporate that not only would the existing roofs have to be removed and replaced to 4 stands, but the compete facade to the main stand would have to be removed to allow the cantilever supports to be built. 
The existing steel floodlight towers and the massive horizontal trusses would also have to be romoved - no easy task in its own right.

The costs for this kind of redesign is frankly huge - it’s just not practical.

 

Thank you. I'm not an enthusiast for filling the corners (if it's an easy expansion, go for it, but you create seats with terrible sight lines), but I didn't realize it would be quite so much.

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Theres a lot that can be done with Tynecastle in the short term aside from an increased capacity.

 

It looked like on Saturday that the trusses on top of the stands had had a clean up/been painted. Parts or the rest of the stadium could do with the same, including the floodlight pylons which look tired. The inside of the stand edges could do with attention also, including the removing of the old Allsports signage. 
 

Not expensive improvements but modernises the place and makes it a far-cry from some of the hovels we visit for away games.

 

 

With regards to increased capacity there is a decent sized bit land behind the Wheatfield but thats a good view years away from being required

Edited by Gorgie_Rules
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2 hours ago, Bongo 1874 said:

Has it though? with James Anderson at the helm Ann is not short of money 😉

 

If Ann and James want to cement there legacy forever at Hearts what better way to give us a stadium, that will benefit us in years to come, will attract better players and will close the gap on those feckers, Gorgie Rules!!! 

Think Ann Budge has already done this. Pivotal in ensuring we have a club and for us all to have petty bonkers chat about building even bigger stadiums. We also have a new main stand thats going to generate income for years to come. 

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13 minutes ago, johnking123 said:

Purchase land and rebuild Wheatfield stand with cantilever roof. Then do same with Gorgie and Roseburn ends. Leaving the main till be really need to as that would be the expensive one!

That would be the way forward. I never understood why we didn't cantilever the new stand and future proof the stadium for any future redevelopment, instead we tied ourselves in to a 3 decade old design. 

 

That said, I don't think we need a bigger ground. I'd rather it was full everyweek than have a half empty 30,000 seater. 

 

In the short term we could maybe modernise the façades of the 3 older stands. Perhaps clad it with clear corrugated polycarbonate panels like Dublin's Aviva Stadium and a wee lick of paint. 

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40 minutes ago, Thomaso said:


I assume bought during the Pieman era?

As part of “modernising the Clubs image” he changed the Club crest and changed Tynecastle to “Stadium” from “Park”! 😏

 

It's always been just Tynecastle to me.

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1 hour ago, frankblack said:

 

Complete drivel.

 

I made a valid argument and he went off on one.  I was perfectly respectful until the insults got fired at me.

 

We have no hope of challenging Sevco or Celtic any time soon when their budgets are multiple times ours driven by a century or more of bigotry.  Hearts can only progress if they raise income from other means but it still requires both the uglies to have absolute 'mares, which is improbable.

 

Woodburn is going back to Liverpool regardless and we won't be spending the kind of cash required to get him from an EPL side.

 

I've been watching Hearts from the 80s and our support even before Taylor fluctuated massively depending on how consistent the team is.  The fact is if we get too successful someone bigger will pinch our best players (and manager), perhaps even on a Bosman if we spend large sums on them.

 

While we are stuck in Scottish football, the best we can hope for is incremental improvements and start to get consistency from year to year.  We are miles away from that if you look at the depth of our squad.

 

Woodburn's contract's up next summer isn't it?

 

Plus, the bit on bold - nah, of course we have a chance.

 

1 hour ago, Tom Hardy’s Dug said:

I think you’re right but I think with some mental supports in place we could do something with the Wheatfield that wouldn’t require the whole roof to come down. 
 

I am no engineer however.

 

How mental are we talking? Sky hooks?

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2 hours ago, Bongo 1874 said:

 

image.jpeg.148c203dcca831adfbb9a66461335c70.jpeg

Looking at the sizes of those proposed new stands in comparison to the existing ones, I'd say the 32k capacity figure is extremely optimistic. I think you're looking at about 26-27k with that plan.  

 

Also, at a very rough guess, I'd say that would probably cost something like £60-75m. Budge and Anderson may be fans, but I'm not sure either of them would be inclined to put that sort of money in!

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11 minutes ago, Cruyff said:

That would be the way forward. I never understood why we didn't cantilever the new stand and future proof the stadium for any future redevelopment, instead we tied ourselves in to a 3 decade old design. 

 

That said, I don't think we need a bigger ground. I'd rather it was full everyweek than have a half empty 30,000 seater. 

 

In the short term we could maybe modernise the façades of the 3 older stands. Perhaps clad it with clear corrugated polycarbonate panels like Dublin's Aviva Stadium and a wee lick of paint. 

If we are run properly as we should hopefully be now. Football and off the field. Then we can easily outgrow the stadium.  Our fan base is growing  and edinburgh is growing. Trying to at least purchase land off the North British would be a start.

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Just now, FarmerTweedy said:

Looking at the sizes of those proposed new stands in comparison to the existing ones, I'd say the 32k capacity figure is extremely optimistic. I think you're looking at about 26-27k with that plan.  

 

Also, at a very rough guess, I'd say that would probably cost something like £60-75m. Budge and Anderson may be fans, but I'm not sure either of them would be inclined to put that sort of money in!

 

We could decide not to knock down our 7000 main stand and replace it with a 5200 one, that would be a good start.

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2 hours ago, been here before said:

 

What a bizarre argument.

 

How many St Johnstone fans were at their cup finals last year?

 

I suppose based in that thinking McDiarmid should be upgraded to 25k.

 

About half of Dumfries rocked up to watch QoS in the final v Rangers. You seem to be arguing Palmerston should be a 20k plus stadium.

 

:rofl:

I think that argument would say McDairmid should be downgraded to about 200!

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7 minutes ago, FarmerTweedy said:

Looking at the sizes of those proposed new stands in comparison to the existing ones, I'd say the 32k capacity figure is extremely optimistic. I think you're looking at about 26-27k with that plan.  

 

Also, at a very rough guess, I'd say that would probably cost something like £60-75m. Budge and Anderson may be fans, but I'm not sure either of them would be inclined to put that sort of money in!


Exactly - pie in the sky!

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49 minutes ago, johnking123 said:

Purchase land and rebuild Wheatfield stand with cantilever roof. Then do same with Gorgie and Roseburn ends. Leaving the main till be really need to as that would be the expensive one!


We were already constrained when rebuilding the Gorgie stand. I doubt we could do anything there due to the proximity of the tenements.

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bigsuperslim1874
3 hours ago, AlimOzturk said:

Doubt we will outgrow the stadium anytime soon. For big European ties we will use Murrayfield. 

Bloody hope not. I’d rather have a sold out Tynie with some folk being disappointed for not getting a ticket than giving up a sporting advantage and playing at Murrayfield.

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2 hours ago, WageThief said:

 

If it was gifted to us, it would be a massive benefit.  Even if only for derbies and OF games.  But in reality how much would such a thing cost?  How long would it take to build?  

 

Even if it can be done slowly (like one stand at a time) you've gotta wonder whether the cost would justify it.  Upgrading the Gorgie or School end would probably cost 10m at least (?) and would increase capacity by about 1500.  No idea what the value of each seat is on average per year, but I'd imagine we'd take a while to see any gains even if we were guaranteed to sell the seats.

 

At least the proposed Wheatfield would add 4k so if it's really a possibility then it is something that could happen I suppose.  

 

I'd rather just leave the school end and have the capacity at 30k anyway.  We'd be doing well to sell more than 27k home seats and would probably give the whole stand to the gruesome twosome and Hibs.  No point spending 10m to have an extra 1500 of them.

Leaving aside that it'll never happen anyway, and I very much doubt it would even fit 32k, how could you do it one stand at a time? And how could you leave the school end, sitting waaaay back from the pitch, and how does a 3.5k stand instead of a 10k one only reduce the capacity from 32k to 30k?

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37 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

It's always been just Tynecastle to me.


Not in the song it’s not! 😉

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20 minutes ago, Gizmo said:


We were already constrained when rebuilding the Gorgie stand. I doubt we could do anything there due to the proximity of the tenements.


Some of our resident architects seem to have forgotten that……

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2 hours ago, Fire_At_The_Disco said:

I reckon if we filled the corners between wheatfield and gorgie, wheatfield and roseburn it would be job done. I think these 2 can be engineered quite easily, anything connected to the steeper main is much harder. 

It can be done, but as has been pointed out probably somewhere in the region of around 250,000 times on jkb now, it would be extremely expensive. 

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14 minutes ago, bigsuperslim1874 said:

Bloody hope not. I’d rather have a sold out Tynie with some folk being disappointed for not getting a ticket than giving up a sporting advantage and playing at Murrayfield.


100%

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