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Some data regarding our commitment to youth ( merged )


Skippy Doodle

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Skippy Doodle
An objective set by Ann Budge as part of her statement back in 2014
 
"Create an environment that allows young players to flourish & develop"
 
2591 survey responses were submitted and 12.62% of fans felt that we had met this objective
 
Lets look at some data
 
Firstly average age of players recruited :
 
14-15 - 26
15-16 - 25
16-17 - 24 (Neilson) & 27 (Cathro)
17-18 - 25 (Cathro) & 25 (Levein)
18-19 - 25
19-20 - 26 (Levein) & 23 (Stendel)
20-21 - 28
 
Number of youth players given their debut
 
14-15 - (9)
15-16 - (3)
16-17 - (3)
17-18 - (11)
18-19 - (1)
19-20 - (0)
20-21 - (1)
 
28 players from our youth set up have made their debut for the club since summer 2014
 
There is a total of 504 appearances between the 28 players which is an average of 18 games per player
 
10 players have played 25 or more times in competitive action for the club
 
Of those 28 players, 9 of them remain although many of these are out of contract this summer.
 
Of those 28 players only 1 (Aaron Hickey) was sold

0_18114815.jpg

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Thanks for pulling that together.

 

A sad state of affairs regarding our (so called) production line.

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Lone Striker
9 minutes ago, Skippy Doodle said:
An objective set by Ann Budge as part of her statement back in 2014
 
"Create an environment that allows young players to flourish & develop"
 
2591 survey responses were submitted and 12.62% of fans felt that we had met this objective
 
Lets look at some data
 
Firstly average age of players recruited :
 
14-15 - 26
15-16 - 25
16-17 - 24 (Neilson) & 27 (Cathro)
17-18 - 25 (Cathro) & 25 (Levein)
18-19 - 25
19-20 - 26 (Levein) & 23 (Stendel)
20-21 - 28
 
Number of youth players given their debut
 
14-15 - (9)
15-16 - (3)
16-17 - (3)
17-18 - (11)
18-19 - (1)
19-20 - (0)
20-21 - (1)
 
28 players from our youth set up have made their debut for the club since summer 2014
 
There is a total of 504 appearances between the 28 players which is an average of 18 games per player
 
10 players have played 25 or more times in competitive action for the club
 
Of those 28 players, 9 of them remain although many of these are out of contract this summer.
 
Of those 28 players only 1 (Aaron Hickey) was sold

0_18114815.jpg

Good research there, Skippy.     So CL gave 11 their debuts in 2017-18 ..... and since then its pretty much dried up ?

 

Could you list the 11 from 2017-18 ?   Just interested to know who they were  ....     Thanks !!

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SuperstarSteve
20 minutes ago, Skippy Doodle said:
An objective set by Ann Budge as part of her statement back in 2014
 
"Create an environment that allows young players to flourish & develop"
 
2591 survey responses were submitted and 12.62% of fans felt that we had met this objective
 
Lets look at some data
 
Firstly average age of players recruited :
 
14-15 - 26
15-16 - 25
16-17 - 24 (Neilson) & 27 (Cathro)
17-18 - 25 (Cathro) & 25 (Levein)
18-19 - 25
19-20 - 26 (Levein) & 23 (Stendel)
20-21 - 28
 
Number of youth players given their debut
 
14-15 - (9)
15-16 - (3)
16-17 - (3)
17-18 - (11)
18-19 - (1)
19-20 - (0)
20-21 - (1)
 
28 players from our youth set up have made their debut for the club since summer 2014
 
There is a total of 504 appearances between the 28 players which is an average of 18 games per player
 
10 players have played 25 or more times in competitive action for the club
 
Of those 28 players, 9 of them remain although many of these are out of contract this summer.
 
Of those 28 players only 1 (Aaron Hickey) was sold

0_18114815.jpg

Wasn’t Marc Leonard sold? If not my apologies as must have been a development fee 

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Skippy Doodle
5 minutes ago, SuperstarSteve said:

Wasn’t Marc Leonard sold? If not my apologies as must have been a development fee 

Not to sure but never played so wasn’t counted amongst the 28

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sauchiejambo

Some follow up questions I would be interested  in if you have the data.

How many youth players are on the books?

What is the average age?

Is there a demographic breakdown by age group?

Is there a significant deficiency in any particular age groups?

 

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18 minutes ago, Lone Striker said:

Good research there, Skippy.     So CL gave 11 their debuts in 2017-18 ..... and since then its pretty much dried up ?

 

Could you list the 11 from 2017-18 ?   Just interested to know who they were  ....     Thanks !!

McDonald and Cochrane were 2. I want to say Keena as well?

 

There was quite a few who made their debut away at Killie on the final day. Leeroy Makovora is the one that stands out.

 

I'm trying to think who the 9 from 14/15 are.

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Nookie Bear
18 minutes ago, Lone Striker said:

Good research there, Skippy.     So CL gave 11 their debuts in 2017-18 ..... and since then its pretty much dried up ?

 

Could you list the 11 from 2017-18 ?   Just interested to know who they were  ....     Thanks !!


Petkov

Cochrane

Baur

Keena

McDonald

Irving

Godinho

Hamilton

Logan

 C Smith 

Makovora

 

(Thanks, London Hearts)

 

 

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Saint Jambo

Was there not a point a few years ago where there was a stat about us giving more teenagers game time than any club in Europe? I think it must have been 2017-18. It is crazy how that has changed in the last 3 seasons.

 

I looked at the 2014-15 season a bit further and back into the seasons before it. I've seen repeated in jkb this season that Neilson can't be given credit for the youngsters that played in 14-15, because it was Locke that was responsible for them. When you look in detail at the list quite a few of the youngsters were actually in the team before Locke took over. While Neilson gave a good number of players debuts in 14-15.

 

I really don't understand the change in approach to youngsters this time around, especially given the financial impact of covid. Some of it is easy in retrospect, but would Hamilton not have been a better back-up to Halkett and Berra than Popescu. Would we not have been better with McDonald and Moore than 4 new wingers.

 

A couple of noted for completeness that don't change the overall thrust of the first post 

- Jack Hamilton was sold to Dundee for an undisclosed fee.

- Angus Beith was a swap deal for Mulraney.

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Lone Striker
20 minutes ago, Nookie Bear said:


Petkov

Cochrane

Baur

Keena

McDonald

Irving

Godinho

Hamilton

Logan

 C Smith 

Makovora

 

(Thanks, London Hearts)

 

 

Cheers  @Locky and @Nookie Bear.      Of that 11, Petkov, Baur, Keena, McDonald & Godinho have gone.     Cochrane, Hamilton, Logan, Smith & Makavora are out on loan - so the jury is still out on them.   Only Irving has become a regular (along with Hickey for a year).     

 

We should probably give a wee bit of credit to CL for at least trying these 11 academy boys out.  Although its questionable what his motive was  for trying so many.  Just to make it look like our academy was working spectacularly well ?   

 

 

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Greedy Jambo

Anthony Mcdonald and Connor Smith would have been getting a shit load of game time this season if we had a manager that knew what he was doing. 

We just ruin everyone and chuck them to one side. 

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Mikey1874

Need to add appearances.

 

It's not great but Irving and Henderson have played a decent number of games. 

 

And how do the stats compare. OP does great in general but this is amateur. 

 

The point does not stand but need a bit more rounded stats. 

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Mikey1874

For example this is a better comparison (also how England is doing better)

 

 

20210329_232537.jpg

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Statistically that reads like our academy system is getting worse? 
 

The alternative is that there has been an aversion to youth development for the last 3/4 years. But we expected a delay because ‘Vlad gutted the academy’ yet we’ve produced less youngsters after the project was given time to take hold... 

 

WTF is being learned in the academy?

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2 minutes ago, OTT said:

Statistically that reads like our academy system is getting worse? 
 

The alternative is that there has been an aversion to youth development for the last 3/4 years. But we expected a delay because ‘Vlad gutted the academy’ yet we’ve produced less youngsters after the project was given time to take hold... 

 

WTF is being learned in the academy?

The whole thing needs ripped up. 

 

:mmtaxi:for Arnott. 

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Just now, Cruyff said:

The whole thing needs ripped up. 

 

:mmtaxi:for Arnott. 


Brian McClair lives in Stockbridge apparently. Ex-Man Utd academy director (06 -15). Not likely to find a more qualified man in Scotland to do what we want to do and he’s right on our door step...

 

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Skippy Doodle
9 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

Need to add appearances.

 

It's not great but Irving and Henderson have played a decent number of games. 

 

And how do the stats compare. OP does great in general but this is amateur. 

 

The point does not stand but need a bit more rounded stats. 

Appearances are there in terms of total and average along with acknowledging 10 of the 28 have played 25 times or more

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Skippy Doodle
11 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

Need to add appearances.

 

It's not great but Irving and Henderson have played a decent number of games. 

 

And how do the stats compare. OP does great in general but this is amateur. 

 

The point does not stand but need a bit more rounded stats. 

I could certainly do an appearance by season comparison tomorrow 👍

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1 minute ago, OTT said:


Brian McClair lives in Stockbridge apparently. Ex-Man Utd academy director (06 -15). Not likely to find a more qualified man in Scotland to do what we want to do and he’s right on our door step...

 

Has he had many successes?

 

Great player but is he not a mad bevvy merchant?

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Greedy Jambo
4 minutes ago, Cruyff said:

The whole thing needs ripped up. 

 

:mmtaxi:for Arnott. 

 

Scott Wilson will be playing this the now. 

 

 

 

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Thomaso
13 minutes ago, OTT said:

Statistically that reads like our academy system is getting worse? 
 

The alternative is that there has been an aversion to youth development for the last 3/4 years. But we expected a delay because ‘Vlad gutted the academy’ yet we’ve produced less youngsters after the project was given time to take hold... 

 

WTF is being learned in the academy?


This “Vlad gutted the Academy” was broadcast when Levein moved back into the Club. We were told all the revolutionary plans that were to be put in place to transform the academy, and of course the last excuse for Levein and his disasterous tenure on here was “well he did a fantastic job with the Academy”!

And what have we ended up with? Feck all. 😏

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weegie jambo
22 minutes ago, Greedy Jambo said:

Anthony Mcdonald and Connor Smith would have been getting a shit load of game time this season if we had a manager that knew what he was doing. 

We just ruin everyone and chuck them to one side. 

So true, these guys have shown promise and the only way they will improve is by playing them amongst senior pros.

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Skippy Doodle

Appearances from youth players per season

 

2014/15 - 252
2015/16 - 199
2016/17 - 183
2017/18 - 132
2018/19 - 87
2019/20 - 108
2020/21 - 48

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24 minutes ago, Cruyff said:

Has he had many successes?

 

Great player but is he not a mad bevvy merchant?


Alex Ferguson trusted him to head up the academy, I assume players like Jesse Lindgard, Pogba etc would have been there at the same time he was.

 

My thinking is that Ferguson pretty much had the run of that club and trusted McClair to run his academy. It seems a pretty solid endorsement and I think we need a shake up of the academy. Any Levein appointments I think should be under scrutiny! Especially given the lack of success from the academy.
 

Realistically, Someone with that level of experience in youth development on our doorstep doesn’t come along often and if a deal can be worked out then it should be done IMO. 
 

https://uk.linkedin.com/public-profile/in/brian-mcclair-2423bb13b?challengeId=AQGts0FvhvSPtQAAAXiANxIJ1fQrqRcNuwz24bGlnFMPdgowzmgRowrey6GxxXWhvTz2phG-FMnPpyWm542uYK-B4OY3cywLIg&submissionId=f56ca03f-68f2-7016-ca93-1d535e810324

 

even got a LinkedIn!!!

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Pasquale for King
49 minutes ago, Skippy Doodle said:

Appearances from youth players per season

 

2014/15 - 252
2015/16 - 199
2016/17 - 183
2017/18 - 132
2018/19 - 87
2019/20 - 108
2020/21 - 48

Is Berra and Gordon counted in that? I can only think of Irving and Henderson this season in the league?

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Pasquale for King
1 hour ago, Thomaso said:


This “Vlad gutted the Academy” was broadcast when Levein moved back into the Club. We were told all the revolutionary plans that were to be put in place to transform the academy, and of course the last excuse for Levein and his disasterous tenure on here was “well he did a fantastic job with the Academy”!

And what have we ended up with? Feck all. 😏

Indeed.

When they took over after administration we had well over a team full of youth players that had played for their countries at some level. 
Something must’ve been ok when Vlad was there. We’ve now spent over £4m with not a lot in return and a manager that refuses to give them a chance whilst signing guys at 30+. 

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Thomaso
6 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

Indeed.

When they took over after administration we had well over a year full of youth players that had played for their countries at some level. 
Something must’ve been ok when Vlad was there. We’ve now spent over £4m with not a lot in return and a manager that refuses to give them a chance whilst signing guys at 30+. 


👍

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Pasquale for King
2 hours ago, Lone Striker said:

Good research there, Skippy.     So CL gave 11 their debuts in 2017-18 ..... and since then its pretty much dried up ?

 

Could you list the 11 from 2017-18 ?   Just interested to know who they were  ....     Thanks !!

Cochrane, Macdonald. Hickey, Godhino, Brandon, Morrison, Keena, Burns, Irving, Smith, Berra out of the 36 we played. 

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jamborich

What's gone wrong I want the manager to answer what has happened to our young prospects 

FB_IMG_1617063305188.jpg

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SomethingAboutObua

Is there a way for the foundation or fans group to raise this and get some serious answers? Beyond "there's some guys we're really excited about coming through", because that still doesn't make clear why the total lack of youth product for the previous 5 years bar Irving? Hickey was mostly Celtics work so I'm not that keen for him to be their main example of success. 

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Hearts1975
4 hours ago, jamborich said:

What's gone wrong I want the manager to answer what has happened to our young prospects 

FB_IMG_1617063305188.jpg

If he has some grand master plan for the youngsters it doesn’t involve playing them at any point soon 

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been here before

Good question and one that hasnt been asked at all over the last while.

 

Not once.

 

You'd think there would be at least one thread about it, one post even raising the subject.

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Ours is no worse than anyone else’s really. Good and bad years but the neglect of previous years will take time to fix. We have a couple of prospects out on loan which hopefully yields some results. The latest one though is getting slaughtered and his contract offer ripped up on here. Probably by some of the same people that wanted him handed a 5 year deal at any cost a few weeks ago and now those moaning about the academy. 

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Skippy Doodle
6 hours ago, Pasquale for King said:

Is Berra and Gordon counted in that? I can only think of Irving and Henderson this season in the league?

No I’m not counting players we have re-signed

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Smithee
42 minutes ago, been here before said:

Good question and one that hasnt been asked at all over the last while.

 

Not once.

 

You'd think there would be at least one thread about it, one post even raising the subject.

Does it give you a great buzz to post how shit the forum is every day or something?

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Total waste of resources, hibs get more players

from our academy than we do, save the money

and spend it on buying young players ready

for the first team

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  • davemclaren changed the title to Some data regarding our commitment to youth ( merged )
Nookie Bear
8 hours ago, Greedy Jambo said:

Anthony Mcdonald and Connor Smith would have been getting a shit load of game time this season if we had a manager that knew what he was doing. 

We just ruin everyone and chuck them to one side. 


I think we have an attitude amongst fans that every youngster needs to be a first team regular and be a Gordon, Hickey, Mackay or Robbo. 
 

It is perfectly acceptable for a youth policy to produce squad players who can contribute and mean we don’t need to buy players to fill those spots. On that basis, I reckon 5 from those 11 should still be here in some way: Connor Smith, Cochrane, McDonald & Irving. 

 

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A_A wehatethehibs

18/19 was the season we got all those injuries as well

 

Levein absolutely bottled the big chance to just play the kids. 
 

I reckon if he’d played the kids fans would have had a lot more patience with the injuries. Because we would not have been watching dud journeymen 

 

The big big major major one for me that’s not in OP though:

 

The club has not produced a decent Center half since Christophe Berra. Made his debut in 2003. 18 years.


To be fair the whole country has basically not produced one since then but still. Are there just no defenders anymore? The kids obsession with attacking football on the Xbox has gone too far. We’ve got grant ****ing Hanley still getting caps. 
 

SOS The nation needs defenders. 

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king.Robbo

I used to slag The Rangers fans saying when they were in the lower leagues they showed have bleed youngsters like we did...

 

we have missed opportunities to blood youngsters in a Diddy part time league...

 

massive shake up needed ASAP

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Nookie Bear
8 hours ago, Thomaso said:


This “Vlad gutted the Academy” was broadcast when Levein moved back into the Club. We were told all the revolutionary plans that were to be put in place to transform the academy, and of course the last excuse for Levein and his disasterous tenure on here was “well he did a fantastic job with the Academy”!

And what have we ended up with? Feck all. 😏


There is a belief that academy players develop better when they are essentially left to their own devices (within reason) and not over-coached. It makes them learn to think for themselves and mature. 
 

Just saying 🤷‍♂️

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hmfcbilly
2 hours ago, been here before said:

Good question and one that hasnt been asked at all over the last while.

 

Not once.

 

You'd think there would be at least one thread about it, one post even raising the subject.

Get out of bed the wrong side this morning? Even if it has been discussed previously, I don't recall it being broken down in the same detail as this thread. I'm taking the OP's thread for what it appears...some solid facts put out there for those of us to discuss and give our views. Your post contributes absolutely nothing to the thread so I'm not sure why you even bothered. Some good posts on here with most folk up for decent debates. We won't always agree on things but healthy debate is good for the mind in my view and I rnjoy kickback for what it is....a forum for discussion! Rant over😉

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Randy Marsh

Things started going downhill in the summer of 2018 when Levein signed about 17 players.  This blocked the pathway for players like Cochrane, Macdonald and Connor Smith who had all showed promise towards the end of the previous season.  Still pisses me off we actually got rid of Liam Smith as he impressed me a lot when he broke into the first team.  Levein basically replaced these players by signing absolute garbage.  But apparently our academy was broken and Levein worked wonders fixing it according to some on here.  :rofl:

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Footballfirst
10 hours ago, Nookie Bear said:


Petkov

Cochrane

Baur

Keena

McDonald

Irving

Godinho

Hamilton

Logan

 C Smith 

Makovora

 

(Thanks, London Hearts)

 

 

Keena and Godinho can't really be described as Academy products. Petkov was another late arrival.

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Skippy Doodle
12 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

Keena and Godinho can't really be described as Academy products. Petkov was another late arrival.

Yeah it’s more of a generalised youth player term that I am going for FF (so anyone that was signed or brought into the reserve set up is included within the stats) 

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