Where does Robbie rank in Hearts managers since Tommy Walker

[Pasquale for King]

13 hours ago, Glamorgan Jambo said:

Alex MacDonald picked up the Hearts that had been in decline for 15 years and with Sandy Jardine built a team that challenged for the league within 5 years.

 

Jefferies first time round got us over the line in terms of winning a trophy and built as good a Hearts team as I’ve seen in my lifetime. 
 

There were some great results over the Vlad years but the coaches were never in place long enough to be judged (including Jefferies Mk 2, Burley, Sergio) and our spend on players was the highest ever. 
 

Honourable mentions to Jordan and Levein mk1 for the results and league finishes they delivered.

 

Neilson first time round did very well. Winning a tough championship at a canter and re establishing us as a top 4 club. Too many odd circumstances this season. Next season he needs to establish us in the top 6. What he does after that will establish his legacy and whether he’s in the same class as MacDonald and Jefferies.

Well put 👍🏽. 

[Pasquale for King]

2 hours ago, Ethan Hunt said:

I have no idea if this is blatant trolling or the worst attempt ever to elevate Neilson into company that he doesn’t belong in.

 

Firstly, to assist in the ranking if based on your criteria of winning ‘trophies’. The Scottish Championship is classed as a minor honour. It’s in there alongside East of Scotland Shield wins. By virtue of the fact that JJ, Ivanuaskas and Sergio all won the Scottish Cup, which is classed as a major honour, all of those managers are above Neilson in the trophy winning stakes.

 

I personally wouldn’t have used trophies as the yardstick. Not because - imo - the best Hearts manager of my lifetime didn’t win a major honour, but because there is simply more to it than that.  Alex MacDonald - alongside Sandy Jardine and Wallace Mercer - dragged Hearts up from the gutter. MacDonald brought through two club legends in John Robertson and Gary MacKay, as well as Davie Bowman and others. He signed two club legends in Levein and Colqhoun. He shaped them, and many considered past their sell by date, into a team that were seven minutes away from winning the league. He also took us to a Scottish cup final the same season.

 

MacDonald started the utter dominance over Hibs that you have enjoyed for the majority of your life. He developed a winning mentality in derbies that will never be equalled again.

 

MacDonald took us to the quarter final of the UEFA cup, beating Bayern Munich at Tynecastle along the way.

 

MacDonald took us to numerous cup semi finals and had us competing at a level Hearts should be competing at. He did that consistently, and he did it while shaping some of the best players I have seen at Tynecastle into a team to be proud of.

 

Alex MacDonald restored the pride back into Heart of Midlothian Football Club. He took a team that were playing in front of a few thousand diehards in the second tier and turned them into a team that fought for the jersey, won, sometimes with grit, and sometimes with great football, and competed at the top level. Hearts fans and Heart of Midlothian Football Club should be forever grateful to Alex MacDonald.

 

So, when Neilson has done an ounce of what MacDonald did come back and see me. In the meantime, when you mention Neilson and MacDonald please use separate breaths.

Spot on. We are desperate for someone to once again bring back a winning mentality not just in the team but through the whole club. 

[HMFC 86]

3 hours ago, Ethan Hunt said:

I have no idea if this is blatant trolling or the worst attempt ever to elevate Neilson into company that he doesn’t belong in.

 

Firstly, to assist in the ranking if based on your criteria of winning ‘trophies’. The Scottish Championship is classed as a minor honour. It’s in there alongside East of Scotland Shield wins. By virtue of the fact that JJ, Ivanuaskas and Sergio all won the Scottish Cup, which is classed as a major honour, all of those managers are above Neilson in the trophy winning stakes.

 

I personally wouldn’t have used trophies as the yardstick. Not because - imo - the best Hearts manager of my lifetime didn’t win a major honour, but because there is simply more to it than that.  Alex MacDonald - alongside Sandy Jardine and Wallace Mercer - dragged Hearts up from the gutter. MacDonald brought through two club legends in John Robertson and Gary MacKay, as well as Davie Bowman and others. He signed two club legends in Levein and Colqhoun. He shaped them, and many considered past their sell by date, into a team that were seven minutes away from winning the league. He also took us to a Scottish cup final the same season.

 

MacDonald started the utter dominance over Hibs that you have enjoyed for the majority of your life. He developed a winning mentality in derbies that will never be equalled again.

 

MacDonald took us to the quarter final of the UEFA cup, beating Bayern Munich at Tynecastle along the way.

 

MacDonald took us to numerous cup semi finals and had us competing at a level Hearts should be competing at. He did that consistently, and he did it while shaping some of the best players I have seen at Tynecastle into a team to be proud of.

 

Alex MacDonald restored the pride back into Heart of Midlothian Football Club. He took a team that were playing in front of a few thousand diehards in the second tier and turned them into a team that fought for the jersey, won, sometimes with grit, and sometimes with great football, and competed at the top level. Hearts fans and Heart of Midlothian Football Club should be forever grateful to Alex MacDonald.

 

So, when Neilson has done an ounce of what MacDonald did come back and see me. In the meantime, when you mention Neilson and MacDonald please use separate breaths.

Absolutely this. It’s risible for anyone to suggest Neilson ranks above MacDonald

[Ibrahim Tall]

14 hours ago, Broxburn Jambo said:

 

 

Neilson (14/15) About to repeat and win a second trophy ( a feat not done since Tommy Walker )

You’re kidding.. right?

Neilson will have 2 lower league titles, he’ll have won more simply on the basis that we generally don’t get relegated and he’s probably the only person to have even been given the opportunity by us to actually win 2 lower league titles.

[JamboAl]

8 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

Spot on. We are desperate for someone to once again bring back a winning mentality not just in the team but through the whole club. 

Few would disagree with that but it is not what the OP asked.

 

The question was where does Robbie rank and your opinion won't differ much from mine but I think we should wait a bit longer and give him a chance to prove himself.  We are top of the league, and should be, although some of the football has been below expectations.  When he was here before there were suspicions he was being worked from behind by CL but now he is on his own and it's sink or swim.

 

A word or two of caution.  As I said Tommy Walker was 3 years in post before he won a trophy and Man U supporters would have got shot of Fergie in the first 3 years of his tenure. We'll never know what would have happened to Man U or Hearts had these two managers been fired after just 9 months in post like RN has been.

 

Finally we can't just keep changing managers as inevitably they will want their own men (players and coaches) with them, causing even more turbulence.    I suggest that while things are going at least reasonably well we should back him and when we are a little further down the line we can decide where he rates in our managerial history.

[Broxburn Jambo]

When I first posted the question I was genuinely interested in what peoples thoughts were but never gave my own, and when I replied I was just observing on peoples thoughts and stating some facts,

 

But I will now state my Top 5

 

Alex MacDonald - A manager that brought me back to Tynecastle after the late 60s and 70s almost breaking me, I would have loved him to win the trophy he so richly deserved.

 

Jim Jefferies - I still remember his playing debut, but as a Manager he brought that trophy we all wanted but more than that he made us a challenging force.

 

Craig Levein ( 1st Spell) Also made us a challenging force but was tarnished by his second spell.

 

Robbie Neilson - servant as a player to the club, no matter how much people decry winning the Championship ( probably the same people that would have been on the pitch at Frank Liddell's goal ) he did the job he was required to do.

 

Paulo Sergio - That cup Final brings him credit forever

[Walter Kidd]

For the first 6 months or so Joe Jordan had us playing some sublime stuff and then for whatever reason it all went horribly wrong.  We lost our shape and desire, which, I think was down to the players having a mutiny against him.  I actually thought he improved us as a team from MacDonald, but am prepared to be shot down on that.

 

McDonald and Jardine made us dream.  Big Jim (although I have slated his tactical limitations) delivered the cup and for this I will be forever grateful.  I was 30 before I saw us win anything of note.  I'll say Jefferies/MacDonald have a rizla paper between them for me.  Followed by Sergio, who I wished had kept the gas on rather than taking it off.

 

Will Neilson match MacDonald and Jefferies?  I hope so.  He'll need to stop tinkering all the time though.  Play to our strengths rather than worrying about the opposition.

 

Up the Jam Tarts.

Edited March 8, 2021 by Walter Kidd

[Lone Striker]

4 hours ago, Ethan Hunt said:

I have no idea if this is blatant trolling or the worst attempt ever to elevate Neilson into company that he doesn’t belong in.

 

Firstly, to assist in the ranking if based on your criteria of winning ‘trophies’. The Scottish Championship is classed as a minor honour. It’s in there alongside East of Scotland Shield wins. By virtue of the fact that JJ, Ivanuaskas and Sergio all won the Scottish Cup, which is classed as a major honour, all of those managers are above Neilson in the trophy winning stakes.

 

I personally wouldn’t have used trophies as the yardstick. Not because - imo - the best Hearts manager of my lifetime didn’t win a major honour, but because there is simply more to it than that.  Alex MacDonald - alongside Sandy Jardine and Wallace Mercer - dragged Hearts up from the gutter. MacDonald brought through two club legends in John Robertson and Gary MacKay, as well as Davie Bowman and others. He signed two club legends in Levein and Colqhoun. He shaped them, and many considered past their sell by date, into a team that were seven minutes away from winning the league. He also took us to a Scottish cup final the same season.

 

MacDonald started the utter dominance over Hibs that you have enjoyed for the majority of your life. He developed a winning mentality in derbies that will never be equalled again.

 

MacDonald took us to the quarter final of the UEFA cup, beating Bayern Munich at Tynecastle along the way.

 

MacDonald took us to numerous cup semi finals and had us competing at a level Hearts should be competing at. He did that consistently, and he did it while shaping some of the best players I have seen at Tynecastle into a team to be proud of.

 

Alex MacDonald restored the pride back into Heart of Midlothian Football Club. He took a team that were playing in front of a few thousand diehards in the second tier and turned them into a team that fought for the jersey, won, sometimes with grit, and sometimes with great football, and competed at the top level. Hearts fans and Heart of Midlothian Football Club should be forever grateful to Alex MacDonald.

 

So, when Neilson has done an ounce of what MacDonald did come back and see me. In the meantime, when you mention Neilson and MacDonald please use separate breaths.

This thread is daft - comparing managers from different eras and with different constraints.      Having said that, Ethan's post above is a perfect summary of why I and many others will always hold Alex McDonald & Sandy Jardine as being the best of the bunch since the mid-60s.  They lasted for 7 or 8 years too - much longer than managers get nowadays.     

[4marsbars]

Neilson was brought in to do a job.

 

He's doing that job (once again).

 

As a bonus, we were within a whisker of winning the cup (thanks, too, to Stendel).

 

Nevertheless, he has his detractors on Kickback.

 

It's too early to be making comparisons with other managers.

 

Based on league performances, Alex MacDonald is clearly our best manager since Walker. Though, Burley ..... what might have been, we'll never know.

[The Real Maroonblood]

16 hours ago, Weakened Offender said:

Alex Macdonald is the greatest manager in my lifetime. Rescued the club from the soulless place it was in and instilled a mentality in Edinburgh Derbies that has lasted to this day. 

 

JJ was a legend and played great attacking football. There were a couple of awkward seasons too though. 

 

Sergio should be THE man but instructing the players to stop scoring in the final was maybe not unforgivable but definitely worth remembering. 

 

Robbie is next. 

[davemclaren]

The two best since Tommy Walker imo are Alex MacDonald and JJ. One oversaw the club get its pride back and the other won it’s first trophy for decades. 
 

It’s too early to judge Robbie as he still has time to succeed or fail in his present stint. 

[Francis Albert]

5 hours ago, Swimmer said:

According to London Hearts, managers by win %

There's lies, damn lies, and statistics!

Jeffries and MacDonald the best since Walker. MacDonald edges it ahead of Jeffries because of where the club was when he took over.

As an aside a pet hate of mine is saying top of the league when it means top of the second division of the league. And for that matter champions when you mean winner of the second division.

[jambonian]

Not read through the thread but Neilson has got us out of the Championship as Alex MacDonald did (the old First Division)

But no other manager has got us as close to winning the Premier League than Doddy. Also the best European run. Therefore out of those two, MacDonald wins. 

First trophy (in my lifetime) Jim Jeffries. Also because we knew how to sign good players back then aswell. 

George Burley had us playing some fantastic football but was heavily funded for it so out of those two, Jeffries wins.

Subsequent trophy wins...Ivanauskas or Sergio? Ivanauskas v Gretna, Sergio v Hibs. No comparison. Sergio wins hands down.

More recently....Neilson v Levein...has to be Neilson. Although Levein has us finishing high in his first spell. His second spell was more akin to Cathro.

Others....too many to remember under Romanov but the best remembered was probably Sergio for the Cup win even though it was Jeffries team as he couldn't sign anyone (apart from a short contract for Beattie). Re-appointing Jeffries where we finished so far ahead in third. League was over with loads of games to spare. That was a highlight. 

For football style i'd go...

top 5.........MacDonald, Jeffries, Burley, Sergio, Levein mk-I (I believe Stendel would've been along this line as well given time)

worst 5.....Levein mk-2, Cathro, McLean, Clark, Rix

middle meh....!   Jordan, Neilson, Robertson, McGlynn, Locke, Laszlo, Ivanauskas.

 

 

 

Edited March 8, 2021 by jambonian

[Broxburn Jambo]

43 minutes ago, jambonian said:

Not read through the thread but Neilson has got us out of the Championship as Alex MacDonald did (the old First Division)

But no other manager has got us as close to winning the Premier League than Doddy. Also the best European run. Therefore out of those two, MacDonald wins. 

First trophy (in my lifetime) Jim Jeffries. Also because we knew how to sign good players back then aswell. 

George Burley had us playing some fantastic football but was heavily funded for it so out of those two, Jeffries wins.

Subsequent trophy wins...Ivanauskas or Sergio? Ivanauskas v Gretna, Sergio v Hibs. No comparison. Sergio wins hands down.

More recently....Neilson v Levein...has to be Neilson. Although Levein has us finishing high in his first spell. His second spell was more akin to Cathro.

Others....too many to remember under Romanov but the best remembered was probably Sergio for the Cup win even though it was Jeffries team as he couldn't sign anyone (apart from a short contract for Beattie). Re-appointing Jeffries where we finished so far ahead in third. League was over with loads of games to spare. That was a highlight. 

For football style i'd go...

top 5.........MacDonald, Jeffries, Burley, Sergio, Levein mk-I (I believe Stendel would've been along this line as well given time)

worst 5.....Levein mk-2, Cathro, McLean, Clark, Rix

middle meh....!   Jordan, Neilson, Robertson, McGlynn, Locke, Laszlo, Ivanauskas.

 

 

 

That's

a fair estimation

[Sherbet]

18 hours ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

If we are counting Division 1 titles, surely Willie Ormond is up there for 77/78!

Finished second

[GinRummy]

Neilson can’t be judged on getting us out the championship twice. How he does in the top league is how he will be judged. Comparisons to other managers who led us in the top flight are meaningless. 

[davemclaren]

5 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

Neilson can’t be judged on getting us out the championship twice. How he does in the top league is how he will be judged. Comparisons to other managers who led us in the top flight are meaningless. 

Correct. 

[ToadKiller Dog]

Alex Mcdonald and those before him lived in a different era  of the game that changed as old firm dominance took over  so possibly unfair to compare when he managed in a truly competitive era ,where those after had a different kind of challenge. 

 

Nelson will rightly be judged on next seasons results .

 

[ollie2004]

22 hours ago, DH1986 said:

If I have to explain to you why Alex MacDonald was a better Hearts manager than Robbie Neilson then the chances are it’s too late for you to understand and I’m certainly not going to waste my time attempting it.

 

You said you were there so you really should know.

I was at Dens  that dark dark day and at the Killie game when we LOST both league titles on final game. WHY? Simply because THE CLUB ARE SOFT ! We need to be like the UGLY SISTERS  namely win at all costs. 

 

 

[Guest ToqueJambo]

In my top five since the 80s managers he ranks 5th.

 

Doddie

JJ (first spell)

Sergio

Levein (first spell)

Neilson

[cauther col]

I remember Haggarts Hearts too , had a great lift to start with but went like the others.

[Cambo]

Wee doddie was also capable of plundering the lower English divisions and picking up the likes of like Galloway and Wayne foster. The former going from a 25k players to one we sold for 500k within a couple of years. Great management and all due respect to Robbie and his list of bang average signings, I can't see that happening with any of them.

[Guest ToqueJambo]

12 minutes ago, Cambo said:

Wee doddie was also capable of plundering the lower English divisions and picking up the likes of like Galloway and Wayne foster. The former going from a 25k players to one we sold for 500k within a couple of years. Great management and all due respect to Robbie and his list of bang average signings, I can't see that happening with any of them.

 

Osman Sow - £0 to £1m?

[Cambo]

43 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

Osman Sow - £0 to £1m?

We are generally talking about his second stint, so go on, any of the current crop?

[davemclaren]

9 minutes ago, Cambo said:

We are generally talking about his second stint, so go on, any of the current crop?

It isn’t finished yet, to be fair. 😄

[Ethan Hunt]

7 minutes ago, Cambo said:

We are generally talking about his second stint, so go on, any of the current crop?

I’m sure Neilson was sitting as Hearts under 20’s Coach identifying Sow, Gomis, Bauban, etc, in his fantasy football team just in case he was gifted the Hearts manager’s job. I’m sure Levein helped him spell all the names while sitting holding his hand. 

[Ethan Hunt]

Just now, davemclaren said:

It isn’t finished yet, to be fair. 😄

I think it’s fair to judge him on his signings this time around with Levein nowhere in sight. So far, meh!! But as you said “time will tell”.

[WheatfieldWarrior]

14 hours ago, Swimmer said:

According to London Hearts, managers by win %

 

 

 

Robbie Oot!

 

Caretaker 4 is the manager for us - bring him back now!  I don't care if he is at least 110.

 

 

 

[Glamorgan Jambo]

10 hours ago, Cambo said:

Wee doddie was also capable of plundering the lower English divisions and picking up the likes of like Galloway and Wayne foster. The former going from a 25k players to one we sold for 500k within a couple of years. Great management and all due respect to Robbie and his list of bang average signings, I can't see that happening with any of them.

If you read Doddie’s autobiography (which I highly recommend) you’ll learn that he had very little involvement with player recruitment. Was a couple he recommended to Waldo to sign but mostly this was a Mercer operation. And yes I was pretty surprised when I learned that.

[Shaggy2]

11 hours ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

Osman Sow - £0 to £1m?

Funnily enough, Osman Sow is the perfect example of why Robbie isn’t a good manager, just a yes man. Dropping, or agreeing to drop him for the 2016 Scottish Cup tie against Hibs is a misjudgment that neither he (nor Levein/Ann Budge) have ever been held accountable for. 

Whether it was due to the club not wanting to lose out on £1.5m, the player not wanting to miss out on a “dream” move to China (dream my arse, it was for ££’s) or his new club telling Hearts not to play him, Robbie agreeing to this showed a weak will that’s prevalent in the modern game. Bear in mind, they played Inverness, Dundee Utd and still Championship Rangers, we may well have recouped that £1.5m and more by actually winning the cup. He might never have a better chance to etch his name into Hearts history or at least earn his own way to a Hampden match. 

I’ve experienced players being left out due to the anger of a manager when a player has demanded a transfer but that omission was to protect the transfer and I don’t think I’ve witnessed such a transparent example of that. To have your best striker sitting in the stand in what turned out to be such a defining game in your first spell as Hearts manager was just bonkers to me. 

Older viewers will still remember the slightly bizarre match at Dens Park where Dundee played Tosh McKinlay against Hearts (and he set up the equaliser) in a 1-1 draw in which the Hearts fans sang his name because EVERYONE knew he was signing for us on the Monday. Never entered Dundee’s or the player’s head not to take the risk of losing out financially by getting injured. 

Edited March 9, 2021 by Shaggy2

[Glamorgan Jambo]

2 hours ago, Shaggy2 said:

Funnily enough, Osman Sow is the perfect example of why Robbie isn’t a good manager, just a yes man. Dropping, or agreeing to drop him for the 2016 Scottish Cup tie against Hibs is a misjudgment that neither he (nor Levein/Ann Budge) have ever been held accountable for. 

Whether it was due to the club not wanting to lose out on £1.5m, the player not wanting to miss out on a “dream” move to China (dream my arse, it was for ££’s) or his new club telling Hearts not to play him, Robbie agreeing to this showed a weak will that’s prevalent in the modern game. Bear in mind, they played Inverness, Dundee Utd and still Championship Rangers, we may well have recouped that £1.5m and more by actually winning the cup. He might never have a better chance to etch his name into Hearts history or at least earn his own way to a Hampden match. 

I’ve experienced players being left out due to the anger of a manager when a player has demanded a transfer but that omission was to protect the transfer and I don’t think I’ve witnessed such a transparent example of that. To have your best striker sitting in the stand in what turned out to be such a defining game in your first spell as Hearts manager was just bonkers to me. 

Older viewers will still remember the slightly bizarre match at Dens Park where Dundee played Tosh McKinlay against Hearts (and he set up the equaliser) in a 1-1 draw in which the Hearts fans sang his name because EVERYONE knew he was signing for us on the Monday. Never entered Dundee’s or the player’s head not to take the risk of losing out financially by getting injured. 

 

Remember Sow had been on two 14 hour flights in the 10 days running up to the game. The chance of an injury would be pretty high for anyone least of all someone prone to joint issues. Absolutely the right decision in my books (to protect the transfer fee) and we lost the tie due to poor defending and probably the wrong tactics in the second half at Tynecastle.

[Shaggy2]

38 minutes ago, Glamorgan Jambo said:

 

Remember Sow had been on two 14 hour flights in the 10 days running up to the game. The chance of an injury would be pretty high for anyone least of all someone prone to joint issues. Absolutely the right decision in my books (to protect the transfer fee) and we lost the tie due to poor defending and probably the wrong tactics in the second half at Tynecastle.

If 2 x 14 hour flights in ten days affects any professional footballer, you’ve got to ask whether we should sign international players or attempt to qualify for Europe. We’ve had Australian internationals, FFS. 

If he’d played and we’d won, Hearts probably would have recouped any monies that were at risk. I suppose we did get some by way of the money spinning replay that couldn’t be shown on TV! 

[Glamorgan Jambo]

3 minutes ago, Shaggy2 said:

If 2 x 14 hour flights in ten days affects any professional footballer, you’ve got to ask whether we should sign international players or attempt to qualify for Europe. We’ve had Australian internationals, FFS. 

If he’d played and we’d won, Hearts probably would have recouped any monies that were at risk. I suppose we did get some by way of the money spinning replay that couldn’t be shown on TV! 

The point is you are more prone to injury after sitting in a plane for a long time. And the £1 million offered for Sow wouldn’t have rematerialised from another club as he was out of contract a few months later. If the penalty was he’d miss a couple of games then it’s a totally different risk.
 

We made lots of wrong decisions around that tie but leaving Sow in the stand wasn’t one of them.

[Shaggy2]

17 minutes ago, Glamorgan Jambo said:

The point is you are more prone to injury after sitting in a plane for a long time. And the £1 million offered for Sow wouldn’t have rematerialised from another club as he was out of contract a few months later. If the penalty was he’d miss a couple of games then it’s a totally different risk.
 

We made lots of wrong decisions around that tie but leaving Sow in the stand wasn’t one of them.

I get where you’re coming from but I think top players all deal with those travel exertions and Sow probably had to deal with some lengthy trips on a weekly basis in China. As a mistake for that game, I think it was worthy of inclusion, although it’s not my biggest beef.

Having Souttar on the bench and not bringing him on for Ozturk was the ultimate cock up by Robbie that day. He brought Oshaniwa on and reshuffled the whole defence because he didn’t trust his replacement CH to be a direct replacement. Why was he there? Ironically he went on to have a decent game in the replay. A fecking joke of a game, only bettered (or worsted if that’s a word) by Birkirkara, and it’s unlikely everything about it will ever not annoy me, from that day to the ultimate destination of the cup (which I don’t blame Robbie for, but it annoys the f—k out of me that we had it in our hands to destroy them at halftime that day and stop them even having the chance)...phew, and breathe! 😂

 

Edited March 9, 2021 by Shaggy2

[ferenc puskas]

On 07/03/2021 at 22:03, Broxburn Jambo said:

What did he win, is he above or below Jefferies, Sergio, Ivanuaskas ? I still think he is ranked higher than the latter two

I think the thing is that he pulled us out of the shite and that was not an easy job. We really had sunk to the depths before him. Brought proper professionalism back and dont forget he was an absolutely brilliant player. Also massively afforded by Bowman, Mackay and Robertson coming through when we needed them. God i loved those days!