Do Fans Expect Too Much?

[davemclaren]

2 minutes ago, Bongo 1874 said:

We should be capable to beat any team at home, Tynecastle is a fortress. 

 

Installing a winning mentality dave, any time Celtic, Rangers, Hibs, Aberdeen, we don't lose, draw at worse. 

 

In order to achieve this you need a manager that wants to outscore the opponents, 

 

Every other team at Tynecastle should take care of itself. 

 

Bring through a mix of youth, get the right financial backing. 

 

 

 

 

I should have know it would be simple. 😎

[Bongo 1874]

42 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

I should have know it would be simple. 😎

It's not dave, ☺ but I think it could be achieved, might take someone winning the lottery or James Anderson but. 

[Francis Albert]

Sometimes fans expect too.much. And sometimes some fans watch the  steady decline of a club over several seasons while accepting or making every excuse they  or the club can think of. Yes I am talking of the Craig Levein years under Ann. It ended with exactly what we as a club deserved. 

[davemclaren]

19 minutes ago, Bongo 1874 said:

It's not dave, ☺ but I think it could be achieved, might take someone winning the lottery or James Anderson but. 

If I win the lottery we can be sure of it. 👍

[OTT]

2 hours ago, Rogue Daddy said:

 

yep, agree with you here mate.

 

Not going to be popular here but I actually thought CL was onto something  way back when he joined up with AB.

 

IIRC his plan was to have a set 'Hearts way of playing'... for both the youth set up and seniors. A tactic that everyone would buy in to. It was even part of the plan that the youth coach (RN at the time) was next in line for the senior squad managers post. So, in essence, the youth set up (manager and players) was being groomed for the senior level - so that the step up should be seamless.

 

I liked that plan. Putting it in practice is a whole other ball game.

It took balls that I don’t think were there to implement. I still think it could work to some extent but requires a rethink of its implementation. A much more robust scouting system too. I really liked Stendels gegenpress. I would have loved to see that implemented from ground up. A big physical and aggressive Hearts team that can press for 90 minutes. Would be an absolute dream to watch, since I can’t think of a more suitable style of play to Scottish football.

I think we’re still a ways apart from our youth team and first team being in sync. Under Levein, Cochrane for example spent most of the game watching the ball in the air despite being technically excellent he wasn’t given the chance to showcase that with our first team style of playing not even being close to the stuff being learned in the academy.

 

IMO the Academy needs to lead the first team, not the other way round. We need to be hiring managers and coaches that can support a uniform method of playing from u12s to first team level. Otherwise it’s never going to succeed. Levein talked a lot of principles of play, I can’t see how that was ever executed at first team level.

[Cory McNamara]

I don't know what he has delivered, but some numbers are shocking.

 

Derek McInnes' record against theeee Rangers: 5 wins, 6 draws, 11 losses. In our era this is not the greatest record. I watched their game against them (Nov. 22, 0:4) and they were pretty much doomed from the beginning. No speed, no passion, few good passes in a row are out of existence, no good shots (after the game, maybe). Both teams were trying to do the same thing - active movements and attacks from the flanks, mostly.  Not a lot of creative work in the attacking zones. Just few good speed-ups and long shots from Rangers, nothing magical, but the final score is brutal.

 

His record against Celtic: 5 wins, 2 draws, 27 losses. Not good at all, few cups have slipped away. They played very well during the cup final in 2017, unfortunately the late goal (92 min.) trashed them hard. Aberdeen deserved something more back then, additional time or even more.   

 

Derek is a good manager, no doubt about that, but fans of the Reds want something more, they feel that this stagnation phase is very dangerous for the club. They understand that the club is not really there to compete with sides from Glasgow. You can clearly see this in numbers and during the games. McInnes has to do a few more steps or they will find themselves in a swamp.

 

Meanwhile, St Johnstone is going for the second cup in seven years, the team looks fine without constant positions on top. They will be happy with two major trophies.

[davemclaren]

6 minutes ago, Cory McNamara said:

 

Meanwhile, St Johnstone is going for the second cup in seven years, the team looks fine without constant positions on top. They will be happy with two major trophies.

So is the trick for a non-OF manager is to focus on the cups?

[Bongo 1874]

6 minutes ago, OTT said:

It took balls that I don’t think were there to implement. I still think it could work to some extent but requires a rethink of its implementation. A much more robust scouting system too. I really liked Stendels gegenpress. I would have loved to see that implemented from ground up. A big physical and aggressive Hearts team that can press for 90 minutes. Would be an absolute dream to watch, since I can’t think of a more suitable style of play to Scottish football.

I think we’re still a ways apart from our youth team and first team being in sync. Under Levein, Cochrane for example spent most of the game watching the ball in the air despite being technically excellent he wasn’t given the chance to showcase that with our first team style of playing not even being close to the stuff being learned in the academy.

 

IMO the Academy needs to lead the first team, not the other way round. We need to be hiring managers and coaches that can support a uniform method of playing from u12s to first team level. Otherwise it’s never going to succeed. Levein talked a lot of principles of play, I can’t see how that was ever executed at first team level.

☺. 

[Weakened Offender]

8 hours ago, Nookie Bear said:

I think the sheep do expect too much, yes. 
 

McInnes has done a very good job there and I would be delighted if they sacked him. 

 

What's he done? 

[Jambo92]

When you remove the whole experience of attending football matches and limit it to watching through poor quality streams, the expectations of performance level and results rockets as the 90mins is the only thing that is giving the buzz.

 

The downside is that players are starting to lose motivation levels as games start to lose meaning and no pressures from the stands.  All in all not a very positive situation. Hearts are 13 points clear but I think there's been 3 games this season that I actually enjoyed.

[Rudy T]

21 minutes ago, OTT said:

It took balls that I don’t think were there to implement. I still think it could work to some extent but requires a rethink of its implementation. A much more robust scouting system too. I really liked Stendels gegenpress. I would have loved to see that implemented from ground up. A big physical and aggressive Hearts team that can press for 90 minutes. Would be an absolute dream to watch, since I can’t think of a more suitable style of play to Scottish football.

I think we’re still a ways apart from our youth team and first team being in sync. Under Levein, Cochrane for example spent most of the game watching the ball in the air despite being technically excellent he wasn’t given the chance to showcase that with our first team style of playing not even being close to the stuff being learned in the academy.

 

IMO the Academy needs to lead the first team, not the other way round. We need to be hiring managers and coaches that can support a uniform method of playing from u12s to first team level. Otherwise it’s never going to succeed. Levein talked a lot of principles of play, I can’t see how that was ever executed at first team level.

 

Your right, the arse fell out the plan when Neilson left and there was no successor. We also didn't have the quality in the youth teams to deliver on that side. When you consider the amount of money wasted for the end result, we could and should have ploughed far more into the youth set up and we might be closer to achieving the Budge/Levein master plan.

[Cory McNamara]

1 minute ago, davemclaren said:

So is the trick for a non-OF manager is to focus on the cup?

 

For St Johnstone and for smaller clubs this works fine. In the end, they can make it and be with 2 trophies and Aberdeen stays with just 1. They focus on everything, but when the cup is not that far anymore you know where your priorities are.

Shiny cup or 3rd in the league? Smaller clubs will fight for the silver beauty. 

[Rogue Daddy]

38 minutes ago, OTT said:

It took balls that I don’t think were there to implement. I still think it could work to some extent but requires a rethink of its implementation. A much more robust scouting system too. I really liked Stendels gegenpress. I would have loved to see that implemented from ground up. A big physical and aggressive Hearts team that can press for 90 minutes. Would be an absolute dream to watch, since I can’t think of a more suitable style of play to Scottish football.

I think we’re still a ways apart from our youth team and first team being in sync. Under Levein, Cochrane for example spent most of the game watching the ball in the air despite being technically excellent he wasn’t given the chance to showcase that with our first team style of playing not even being close to the stuff being learned in the academy.

 

IMO the Academy needs to lead the first team, not the other way round. We need to be hiring managers and coaches that can support a uniform method of playing from u12s to first team level. Otherwise it’s never going to succeed. Levein talked a lot of principles of play, I can’t see how that was ever executed at first team level.

Absolutely! The academy is going to play an even bigger role going forward due to Brexit... and youre correct in saying it should lead. It should be our shining glory and everything else would fall (hopefully) into place. Successful players coming through, big fees for players who want to move on etc. It should be a priority going forward. 
I was gutted Stendel left also, I thought he was a brave appointment and I would love to see what he would have done with preseason under his belt. Perhaps he was the right choice at the wrong time... but he would have brought something different to Scotland and a breath of fresh air. 

[Hairdryer]

9 hours ago, Nookie Bear said:

I think the sheep do expect too much, yes. 
 

McInnes has done a very good job there and I would be delighted if they sacked him. 

And start a new challenge with us better than what we have

[Nookie Bear]

44 minutes ago, Weakened Offender said:

 

What's he done? 

Maintained a Top 4 position for years straight and we know how difficult that can be. 
 

If he had won a cup or two in his time then I would have said he had done a brilliant job. 

[Nookie Bear]

10 minutes ago, Hairdryer said:

And start a new challenge with us better than what we have

Perhaps a wee Christmas present for us 😉

[Jamhammer]

Any Aberdeen fan my age has seen them win the top division and a European trophy. 
Can understand why 4th isn’t good enough, to a degree.

[Weakened Offender]

21 minutes ago, Nookie Bear said:

Maintained a Top 4 position for years straight and we know how difficult that can be. 
 

If he had won a cup or two in his time then I would have said he had done a brilliant job. 

 

He's done hee haw. And they had Rangers, H1b5, United and ourselves in the lower leagues. They play chronic football too. The Dandies are correct. 

 

[JimmyCant]

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Edited February 17, 2021 by JimmyCant

[JimmyCant]

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Edited February 17, 2021 by JimmyCant

[JimmyCant]

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Edited February 17, 2021 by JimmyCant

[JimmyCant]

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Edited February 17, 2021 by JimmyCant

[JimmyCant]

If McInnes became available tomorrow morning I’d have Neilson clear his desk and take his money due by 11am and McInnes with a Hearts scarf above his head by 2pm

 

Edit. Apologies for duplicates 

Edited February 17, 2021 by JimmyCant

[No Idle Talk]

There are obvious parallels between what Aberdeen fans are currently saying about Derek McInnes, and the things I have seen people on here saying about Robbie Neilson in the last few days.

 

The answer to the question is yes. Football fans in general do expect too much these days.

[Francis Albert]

1 hour ago, davemclaren said:

So is the trick for a non-OF manager is to focus on the cups?

Not exclusively. But maybe enough to win one league cup in 59 years.

And counting.

[davemclaren]

2 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Not exclusively. But maybe enough to win one league cup in 59 years.

And counting.

Oh I know, I know. Seeing three Scottish cups is some consolation but I’d like to see us win at least one LC. 

[Rudy T]

16 minutes ago, JimmyCant said:

If McInnes became available tomorrow morning I’d have Neilson clear his desk and take his money due by 11am and McInnes with a Hearts scarf above his head by 2pm

 

Edit. Apologies for duplicates 

 

Why? I'd be interested in their head to head record.

[Jamhammer]

When I started going to games, round about 83 the fans ambition was to stay in the top league first and foremost.
Then to beat Hibs

Then to finish above Hibs

Winning a trophy was a dream

Winning the league impossible 

(Bear in mind both Dundee Utd and Aberdeen win the league in the next couple of years and, in 86 we were a point away from doing the same.

Times change. Football has changed. Fans have changed.

I kinda miss exceeding expectations 😀

[Francis Albert]

9 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

Oh I know, I know. Seeing three Scottish cups is some consolation but I’d like to see us win at least one LC. 

A pretty huge consolation to be fair. But I would have loved to celebrate a diddy cup cup win in 1996 or 2012 for example.

[davemclaren]

4 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

A pretty huge consolation to be fair. But I would have loved to celebrate a diddy cup cup win in 1996 or 2012 for example.

I still find it incredible that we rank fourth overall in wins for a tournament that started in 1947 and we last won it in 1962. 
 

Not sure what that says about Scottish Football. 

[spacerjoe]

11 hours ago, Rudy T said:

So it appears Aberdeen fans want McInnes out. Fair enough they have to watch them every week.

 

However is this going to be a case of careful what you wish for and a cautionary tale for us all. McCall on sportssound last night made an interesting  point; McInnes has been there 8 years and consistently delivered 4th or above, in this period Hearts Hibs Dundee Utd  (the other big sides) have been in and out the league and never consistently delivered the same as McInnes' Aberdeen. So as fans are we expecting to much would we accept Aberdeens league placings, or, should the lesson be the approach we're all taking is wrong and clubs need to radically change their operations to gain more success?

 

Who are the benchmark right now?

 

Who are Aberdeen, or any other Scottish team, looking at and going 'I wish we played football like them?'

 

 

[Nookie Bear]

1 hour ago, Weakened Offender said:

 

He's done hee haw. And they had Rangers, H1b5, United and ourselves in the lower leagues. They play chronic football too. The Dandies are correct. 

 

Surely the inability of a succession of Dundee Utd, Hearts and hibs managers to achieve any kind of consistency highlights what McInnes has done. 
 

We have under achieved AND play chronic football. Result!

[Bull's-eye]

I just want to be allowed back into Tynecastle to watch my team. 

 

No other current expectations 🙁🙁🙁🙁

[JimmyCant]

23 minutes ago, Rudy T said:

 

Why? I'd be interested in their head to head record.

Neilson v McInnes

p6

w3

d1

L2

[jimbojambo]

https://www.espn.com/soccer/colo-colo/story/4317240/win-or-we-kill-you-ultras-prepare-for-colo-colo-relegation-decider

Maybe jkb isn't that demanding after all? 

[Byyy The Light]

1 hour ago, spacerjoe said:

 

Who are the benchmark right now?

 

Who are Aberdeen, or any other Scottish team, looking at and going 'I wish we played football like them?'

 

 

Man City, PSG, Liverpool.

 

These fans expect to see what these teams do on the tv. It’s the only explanation.

[Voice of reason]

6 hours ago, davemclaren said:

How have we got the potential to challenge for the title against teams with multiple times our resources yet we should never get beaten by teams we have many multiple times the resources of? 

Sums up the unrealistic expectations of football fans perfectly. Even Celtic during their 9 in a row sequence never won every game against teams with massively smaller budgets. They occasionally drew or lost deservedly but still won the league. We are now in a similar position, albeit not anywhere near as financially dwarfing the opposition as Celtic were, yet our fans want the manager, chair and all players sacked when we draw at Queens. Football is not played on paper and players are not robots that will perform brilliantly every game. If we win the league by over 10 points then that meets my expectations for this season but I’d expect a few more shocks along the way. That’s football and that’s why it’s a great sport to follow.

[Riccarton3]

6 hours ago, Rogue Daddy said:

 

yep, agree with you here mate.

 

Not going to be popular here but I actually thought CL was onto something  way back when he joined up with AB.

 

IIRC his plan was to have a set 'Hearts way of playing'... for both the youth set up and seniors. A tactic that everyone would buy in to. It was even part of the plan that the youth coach (RN at the time) was next in line for the senior squad managers post. So, in essence, the youth set up (manager and players) was being groomed for the senior level - so that the step up should be seamless.

 

I liked that plan. Putting it in practice is a whole other ball game.

What other club in this day and age has a boot room succession plan? Fine for Liverpool in 1970s and 1980s where coaches were at the best place in the country.

 

The quality of coaching at Hearts is imo crap, including the period 'the planner'was the head coach looking to implement the plan, and this is shown through the club's inability to maintain a squad without huge turnover, little evidence that our coaching improves players, no noticeable style, fans wondering what they train on each week.

[Francis Albert]

21 minutes ago, Voice of reason said:

Sums up the unrealistic expectations of football fans perfectly. Even Celtic during their 9 in a row sequence never won every game against teams with massively smaller budgets. They occasionally drew or lost deservedly but still won the league. We are now in a similar position, albeit not anywhere near as financially dwarfing the opposition as Celtic were, yet our fans want the manager, chair and all players sacked when we draw at Queens. Football is not played on paper and players are not robots that will perform brilliantly every game. If we win the league by over 10 points then that meets my expectations for this season but I’d expect a few more shocks along the way. That’s football and that’s why it’s a great sport to follow.

But we should have won more than 4 league games out of 30 last season and more than 2 games against the bottom six. Or was that an unrealistic expectation?

[davemclaren]

4 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

But we should have won more than 4 league games out of 30 last season and more than 2 games against the bottom six. Or was that an unrealistic expectation?

No, that was a realistic expectation. 

[willie wallace]

Any season we are not challenging for 3rd place is a failure in my eyes.

Not saying we have to achieve it every year but we must be up there in the running.

As all of us would I wish we could go higher but unfortunately you have to be realistic.

[Francis Albert]

14 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

No, that was a realistic expectation. 

An absolutely minimum expectation. In fact quite a bit less than than a minimum expectation.

[Cory McNamara]

Scottish League Cup winners since 2001:

 

2004 Livingston FC

2007 Hibernian FC

2012 Kilmarnock FC

2013 St Mirren FC

2014 Aberdeen FC

2016 Ross County FC

2021 St Johnstone FC or Livingston FC (7 trophies); other 14 go to Glasgow. Celtic FC has won 5 out of the last 6 (4 in a row).

 

English League Cup winners since 2001:

 

2002 Blackburn Rovers FC

2004 Middlesbrough FC

2008 Tottenham Hotspur FC

2011 Birmingham City FC

2013 Swansea City AFC

 

15 trophies go to rich clubs: Manchester United FC, Liverpool FC, Chelsea FC and Manchester City FC which has won 5 out of the last 7 editions (3 or 4 in a row). 

 

Nottingham Forest FC sits as the seventh best team with 4 victories, the last in 1990.

 

This is the same thing.

 

Quote

Sittin' in an office giving men orders to kill is the same thing as puttin' a bullet in someone's heart yourself. The same. Goddamn. THING.

 

 

 

[Saint Jambo]

There is a famous study that asked drivers in America to rate their driving skills. 93% said they would be in the top 50% of all drivers. Clearly that is impossible.

 

I think football fans are similar. If you undertook a survey of Scottish football fans, our collective expectation would be impossible to fulfil. Which means that fans do expect too much.

 

Fans are really selective in cherry picking stats to demonstrate what should be possible. St Johnstone will be happy with 2 trophies in 7 years (or 8 seasons). Apart from the fact they haven't actually won that second trophy yet, this ignores both that it will also be 2 trophies in 137 years and that in that same 8 seasons only four other teams apart from Celtic have won a single trophy (ICT, Hibs, Aberdeen and Ross County). Winning two trophies in an 8 season period is depressingly an exceptionally rare occurrence in modern football, it isn't a sensible expectation for most non-Old Firm fans to have for their club, and yet lots of fans would say 'my club should be able to match St Johnstone'.

[JFK-1]

4 hours ago, Nookie Bear said:

Maintained a Top 4 position for years straight and we know how difficult that can be. 

 

That's the way I see it. He has delivered 2nd, 3rd, and never less than 4th place finishes which guarantees a crack at Europe and looks good to maintain that record despite their complaints.

Has everyone forgotten where they were before him? They finished 8th in the season before he joined and 9th in more than one season prior to that. They only escaped relegation one season due to league reconstruction. They didn't have a bigger budget than most of the league back then?

And I think they expect too much of their bigger budget. It's almost negligible in comparison to the budget advantage the OF have over them. And in fact so negligible they're simply shopping in the same market everybody else OF aside does.

In general They don't spend money any money at all on transfers. They shop in the freebie English league 1/2 market like everybody else and that's never going to be anything but hit or miss. Perhaps arguably more hit than miss while turning up the occasional good one.

Every season since McInnes arrived they have been losing their best players and the type of quality they lose isn't going to be replaced by English league 1/2 freebies. Yet despite that McInnes continued to consistently deliver these Euro spot league places. There is no 'next level' for them. McInnes has taken them to their ceiling and the only way they can go from there is potentially down.

They also claim he hasn't done well enough in Europe. Seriously? Ever seen the level of opposition that awaits in the Europa league 3rd qualifying round and then the play off round?

 

Take Rangers this season as an example. In the play off round they faced Galatasaray. A club with a squad value on transfermarkt in excess of £80 million while Aberdeen are rated around £11 million. Would any neutral observer really expect the sheep to overcome that?

This season they were beaten in the 3rd qualifying round by Sporting Lisbon. A club with a value transfermrkt value around £123 million. They can't seriously expect to be competing with that fielding league 1/2 freebies.

As others have said I hope they do lose McInnes because I know they have hit their ceiling and the only way for them to go from there is down. The next guy may not be so consistent as McInnes clearly is.

[Cory McNamara]

Aberdeen is a big organization with national and 2 European honors - Scottish record, that's why their fans expect something more, at least in cup competitions. Nobody expects anything from St Johnstone, but they deliver. Why this club began to collect cups now and not 100 or 50 years ago is a mystery.

Edited February 18, 2021 by Cory McNamara

[JFK-1]

4 minutes ago, Cory McNamara said:

Why this club began to collect cups now and not 100 or 50 years ago is a mystery.

 

It's simply a chance football quirk that wont become a regular feature.

[Cory McNamara]

24 minutes ago, JFK-1 said:

 

It's simply a chance football quirk that wont become a regular feature.

 

That's why we love football. Who knows. Maybe it's something new for the Scottish game. Some teams are very successful in cup competitions: U.C. Sampdoria, S.S.C. Napoli, S.S. Lazio, SV Werder Bremen, FC Schalke 04, Eintracht Frankfurt. They all have victories in the European cups too, so they transfer national achievements even farther. Imagine, 2027 where St Johnstone with 4 national cups.

 

Nottingham Forest FC (2 victories, the last one in 1980) is still the 9th best team in the Champions League, together with S.L. Benfica (1962), FC Porto (2004) & Juventus FC (1996). Italian side goes for 10 in a row right now, so what can we say about the pathetic Serie A and CL?

 

 

 

 

[JFK-1]

31 minutes ago, Cory McNamara said:

 

That's why we love football. Who knows. Maybe it's something new for the Scottish game. Some teams are very successful in cup competitions: U.C. Sampdoria, S.S.C. Napoli, S.S. Lazio, SV Werder Bremen, FC Schalke 04, Eintracht Frankfurt. They all have victories in the European cups too, so they transfer national achievements even farther. Imagine, 2027 where St Johnstone with 4 national cups.

 

Nottingham Forest FC (2 victories, the last one in 1980) is still the 9th best team in the Champions League, together with S.L. Benfica (1962), FC Porto (2004) & Juventus FC (1996). Italian side goes for 10 in a row right now, so what can we say about the pathetic Serie A and CL?

 

 

 

 

 

I think most leagues in the long term are dominated by typically a couple of teams at most. Juventus been champions of Italy for the past 9 consecutive seasons while Bayern have won the German league the past 8 seasons. Barca and Real have won 15 of the past 16 Spanish league titles.

Cups can produce different results but whoever the dominant sides are will in general typically dominate there too. It's simply how it is. When one of the non dominants takes a cup it's obviously a far more memorable occasion for the fans of that side. 

[Voice of reason]

5 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

But we should have won more than 4 league games out of 30 last season and more than 2 games against the bottom six. Or was that an unrealistic expectation?

That’s last season though - I was talking about our fans expectations last week and for this season. I thought that was pretty clear in my post.

 

Of course, last season was miles below anyone’s expectation of a club our size and, yes, some of the people are still involved. I think we all get that. At no point did I say that last season was acceptable.
 

However, we still need to have realistic expectations for ‘now’ and not just set a ridiculously high bar to beat people with.  A bar that is set so high by some (win every game convincingly) that virtually no professional club in the world would ever meet it. Rangers couldn’t even manage that in League 2. Football is unpredictable -  I get the desire to see progress, consistency, a certain style etc but results, which is where I’m really coming from here, are nearly always going to be a bit up and down. That’s life for all football fans - even the mighty Celtic are finding that.