*** Cup Final Ticket Donations to FoH ***

[David Black]

2 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

To be honest, I think they are reluctant to be seen to be ‘overmilking the cow’ given the amazing support they have had so far. Whereas, we at JKB have no such morals. 

Point taken to a degree, but when was the last time any initiative came from FOH, the court case money or was that JKB as well. I can't remember. The point is that they are coming in for more and more criticism but if they wish to increase membership they are going the wrong way about it.

[davemclaren]

30 minutes ago, David Black said:

Point taken to a degree, but when was the last time any initiative came from FOH, the court case money or was that JKB as well. I can't remember. The point is that they are coming in for more and more criticism but if they wish to increase membership they are going the wrong way about it.

You would have to take that up with them. Anyway, still possible to buy a ‘ticket’ . 😄

https://www.foundationofhearts.org/cup-final-donations/

 

[David Black]

10 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

You would have to take that up with them. Anyway, still possible to buy a ‘ticket’ . 😄

https://www.foundationofhearts.org/cup-final-donations/

 

I bought a ticket for £30 on the first day they were on sale.

[davemclaren]

3 minutes ago, David Black said:

I bought a ticket for £30 on the first day they were on sale.

Good man. 👍

[davemclaren]

Hopefully we’ll get some sort of update over the next few days.  Still open though if folk want to donate. 

[soonbe110]

1 hour ago, David Black said:

I honestly don't know what FOH are doing these days apart from providing the means to pay your DD or donate as in this case. This is an initiative that they could/should have started but I had to contact Stuart Wallace re what was being said on JKB and he in turn contacted Dave Mc. And as others have said why no promotion from them either.

 

That’s all FoH are in place to do - manage the collection of funds to buy the shares. They don’t have full time employees to do other stuff. Virtually everything they do is done by volunteers in their own time. 

[David Black]

14 hours ago, soonbe110 said:

That’s all FoH are in place to do - manage the collection of funds to buy the shares. They don’t have full time employees to do other stuff. Virtually everything they do is done by volunteers in their own time. 

I agree except the part about initiatives to try and get more members. I am not looking for other stuff as they are indeed volunteers, but they are there to collect funds - they do, buy the shares - where to begin, represent their members views at boardroom level - who knows, maybe's aye, maybe's naw and again trying to entice more to join - ?. My criticism of FOH is at the present time, not what they achieved over the earlier years. They appear to have just ground to a halt and that is from a number of people I know. It does however enforce my argument that after a period of say 6 - 9 months after the shares are transferred. there is no need to have an FOH board as well the club board. The club can easily collect the money. 

[davemclaren]

13 minutes ago, David Black said:

I agree except the part about initiatives to try and get more members. I am not looking for other stuff as they are indeed volunteers, but they are there to collect funds - they do, buy the shares - where to begin, represent their members views at boardroom level - who knows, maybe's aye, maybe's naw and again trying to entice more to join - ?. My criticism of FOH is at the present time, not what they achieved over the earlier years. They appear to have just ground to a halt and that is from a number of people I know. It does however enforce my argument that after a period of say 6 - 9 months after the shares are transferred. there is no need to have an FOH board as well the club board. The club can easily collect the money. 

If the club received the money direct it would be subject to VAT so would be worth 20% less. 

[David Black]

1 hour ago, davemclaren said:

If the club received the money direct it would be subject to VAT so would be worth 20% less. 

I suspected that might be the case, but going forward after the share handover, it surely doesn't need a 4 or 5 man  FOH board to collect the money. My whole argument is that there is room to streamline the whole system. Everything has its day and things should be forever changing to meet the requirements of the time. I would hope that when the shares are eventually transferred this issue would/should be looked into. Thanks for clarifying the VAT.   

[davemclaren]

3 minutes ago, David Black said:

I suspected that might be the case, but going forward after the share handover, it surely doesn't need a 4 or 5 man  FOH board to collect the money. My whole argument is that there is room to streamline the whole system. Everything has its day and things should be forever changing to meet the requirements of the time. I would hope that when the shares are eventually transferred this issue would/should be looked into. Thanks for clarifying the VAT.   

I think it can be discussed but the whole FoH model is based on it being a separate entity from the club - fan owned not fan run. It would be a fundamental change. 

[David Black]

13 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

I think it can be discussed but the whole FoH model is based on it being a separate entity from the club - fan owned not fan run. It would be a fundamental change. 

It has to be a separate entity based on the VAT issue, but a 5 man board. Surely not.

[davemclaren]

3 minutes ago, David Black said:

It has to be a separate entity based on the VAT issue, but a 5 man board. Surely not.

Why do you want a smaller board? Given the amounts being collected I think a 5 person board overseeing that and liaising with members isn’t unreasonable. 

[David Black]

2 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

Why do you want a smaller board? Given the amounts being collected I think a 5 person board overseeing that and liaising with members isn’t unreasonable. 

You don't need 5 people collecting money which is electronically paid into the FOH account. Unless there is a large amount of donations paid by cheque, everything is done electronically and the total per month is transferred electronically. There are many on here who would add that more recently there is no one liaising with members. In think we need to agree to disagree on the amount of board members required .

[davemclaren]

3 minutes ago, David Black said:

You don't need 5 people collecting money which is electronically paid into the FOH account. Unless there is a large amount of donations paid by cheque, everything is done electronically and the total per month is transferred electronically. There are many on here who would add that more recently there is no one liaising with members. In think we need to agree to disagree on the amount of board members required .

It’s more about the accountability for the funds but I agree they could certainly improve their comms. We will have to disagree on numbers.  

[soonbe110]

3 hours ago, davemclaren said:

If the club received the money direct it would be subject to VAT so would be worth 20% less. 

Surely not if it’s a straightforward donation? Doubt that money received from our benefactors is subject to vat

[davemclaren]

59 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

Surely not if it’s a straightforward donation? Doubt that money received from our benefactors is subject to vat

That was what I remember being said but I could have picked it up wrong. I’m no VAT expert 

[David Black]

Surely this issue surrounding VAT could be clarified by FOH on here. It's either a yes or no.

[Footballfirst]

The normal way of determining the tax status of donations is whether or not you get anything in return.  If you do, then you are in effect purchasing an item or service, so tax is payable.  Intangible things like "maroon points" are of questionable status.

 

The FOH Board has at least a couple of "experts" in tax, so I'm certain that such matters are understood and that the donations made under the banner of cup final tickets will be free of tax.

Edited December 21, 2020 by Footballfirst

[soonbe110]

4 hours ago, Footballfirst said:

The normal way of determining the tax status of donations is whether or not you get anything in return.  If you do, then you are in effect purchasing an item or service, so tax is payable.  Intangible things like "maroon points" are of questionable status.

 

The FOH Board has at least a couple of "experts" in tax, so I'm certain that such matters are understood and that the donations made under the banner of cup final tickets will be free of tax.

FF, I think the question raised was that once the shares have transferred do we really need FoH as a vehicle to collect fans money rather than just making donations to the Club ie Hearts take on the admin task of managing the donations etc. Question was would vat be chargeable on the donations if they went straight to the Club. 

[davemclaren]

3 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

FF, I think the question raised was that once the shares have transferred do we really need FoH as a vehicle to collect fans money rather than just making donations to the Club ie Hearts take on the admin task of managing the donations etc. Question was would vat be chargeable on the donations if they went straight to the Club. 

That is the question. 
 

Another one is who would own the shares if we had no FoH? Limited companies can’t own themselves. 

[Footballfirst]

1 minute ago, soonbe110 said:

FF, I think the question raised was that once the shares have transferred do we really need FoH as a vehicle to collect fans money rather than just making donations to the Club ie Hearts take on the admin task of managing the donations etc. Question was would vat be chargeable on the donations if they went straight to the Club. 

I think that same conditions would apply.

 

The club reported donations of £3.733m in the last accounts.

£3m came from "benefactors

£603k came from FOH

£130k came from others.

 

There is no indication of the club paying tax on any of these amounts.

 

Coming from FOH is the same as any of the other donations, i.e. from a separate (legal) entity.

[soonbe110]

5 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

I think that same conditions would apply.

 

The club reported donations of £3.733m in the last accounts.

£3m came from "benefactors

£603k came from FOH

£130k came from others.

 

There is no indication of the club paying tax on any of these amounts.

 

Coming from FOH is the same as any of the other donations, i.e. from a separate (legal) entity.

👍

[Footballfirst]

One problem with the club taking donations directly would be that new Direct Debits would have to be set up for everyone.  I don't think the club would be able to achieve 100% transfer.

 

It was covered in one of the suggestions I made in my initial response to the governance proposal.

 

I had suggested that FOH creates a "trust" to hold the shares,   e.g. "Foundation of Hearts Trust".  All pledgers would become members of the trust once an agreed amount had been donated.

 

The next step would be to rebrand the existing FOH to appeal to all Hearts minded individuals, e.g. rename it "Heart of Midlothian Foundation".   It was important that this should just be a rebranding of the FOH legal entity, as all the current pledges could be maintained, but sell it to new pledgers as a club membership scheme.  New pledger categories for junior members/life members could be created.

Edited December 21, 2020 by Footballfirst

[davemclaren]

42 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

One problem with the club taking donations directly would be that new Direct Debits would have to be set up for everyone.  I don't think the club would be able to achieve 100% transfer.

 

It was covered in one of the suggestions I made in my initial response to the governance proposal.

 

I had suggested that FOH creates a "trust" to hold the shares,   e.g. "Foundation of Hearts Trust".  All pledgers would become members of the trust once an agreed amount had been donated.

 

The next step would be to rebrand the existing FOH to appeal to all Hearts minded individuals, e.g. rename it "Heart of Midlothian Foundation".   It was important that this should just be a rebranding of the FOH legal entity, as all the current pledges could be maintained, but sell it to new pledgers as a club membership scheme.  New pledger categories for junior members/life members could be created.

It’s an interesting point as future fund raising doesn’t have to carried out by the entity that holds the shares. However, there is a risk that some of the goodwill that FoH has could be lost by splitting the two functions. 

[Peakybunnet]

How much has the club made from our donations? Any word yet? 

[Mikey1874]

On 21/12/2020 at 22:18, Footballfirst said:

I think that same conditions would apply.

 

The club reported donations of £3.733m in the last accounts.

£3m came from "benefactors

£603k came from FOH

£130k came from others.

 

There is no indication of the club paying tax on any of these amounts.

 

Coming from FOH is the same as any of the other donations, i.e. from a separate (legal) entity.

 

My understanding is that the benefactors donation is not taxed because we run at a loss.

 

Which may or may not be a deliberate accounting policy. 

[Mikey1874]

On 21/12/2020 at 13:00, davemclaren said:

Why do you want a smaller board? Given the amounts being collected I think a 5 person board overseeing that and liaising with members isn’t unreasonable. 

 

Different experience and viewpoints is healthy.

 

One person in charge isn't. Which it has been for over 6 years. 

[SMJ_1874]

11 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

My understanding is that the benefactors donation is not taxed because we run at a loss.

 

Which may or may not be a deliberate accounting policy. 

It’s a good way to keep your Corporation Tax Bill down 

[davemclaren]

5 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Different experience and viewpoints is healthy.

 

One person in charge isn't. Which it has been for over 6 years. 

We are talking about the FoH board. The Hearts board has at least five members as well though. 

[Mikey1874]

6 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

We are talking about the FoH board. The Hearts board has at least five members as well though. 

 

You might have missed it. But Ann Budge has had absolute dominance over FoH.

[davemclaren]

1 hour ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

You might have missed it. But Ann Budge has had absolute dominance over FoH.

She’s not on the FoH board though but I do agree she has influence. She has been in partnership with them ftom 2913/14.
 

The issue being discussed is the size of the FoH board going forward. i think 5/6 is reasonable. 
 

 

[Kiwidoug]

Haven't seen any updates for 2 9r 3 months on FoH totals.  Expect they are still superb.

 

Last hibs one I saw was £24,000 from memory.

[Gorgie Boot boy]

On 21/12/2020 at 22:18, Footballfirst said:

I think that same conditions would apply.

 

The club reported donations of £3.733m in the last accounts.

£3m came from "benefactors

£603k came from FOH

£130k came from others.

 

There is no indication of the club paying tax on any of these amounts.

 

Coming from FOH is the same as any of the other donations, i.e. from a separate (legal) entity.

You put up a lot of info.

Any inside news on players ?

[Footballfirst]

26 minutes ago, Gorgie Boot boy said:

You put up a lot of info.

Any inside news on players ?

Sadly no.

[Gorgie Boot boy]

4 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

Sadly no.

I enjoy your posts.

Excellent research.

[Footballfirst]

50 minutes ago, Kiwidoug said:

Haven't seen any updates for 2 9r 3 months on FoH totals.  Expect they are still superb.

 

Last hibs one I saw was £24,000 from memory.

Total pledged (the amount going to the club will be around 3% less)

 

July 155,244
Aug 144,277
Sep 144,802
Oct 142,598
Nov 143,433

 

Running total: 11,112,411

[Psychedelicropcircle]

17 hours ago, davemclaren said:

She’s not on the FoH board though but I do agree she has influence. She has been in partnership with them ftom 2913/14.
 

The issue being discussed is the size of the FoH board going forward. i think 5/6 is reasonable. 
 

 

Wondering how the FOH would look in the year 2913/14 😅

[davemclaren]

17 minutes ago, Psychedelicropcircle said:

Wondering how the FOH would look in the year 2913/14 😅

😂🙂

[Mikey1874]

2 hours ago, Psychedelicropcircle said:

Wondering how the FOH would look in the year 2913/14 😅

 

Well if we invest the money in Scottish Mortgage...

[Gorgie Boot boy]

 

[soonbe110]

Any update re amount donated for cup final tickets or is it just a big secret?  Seems odd to ask fans to donate for their virtual tickets and not have the decency to tell them how much has been raised. 

[Boris5115]

36 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

Any update re amount donated for cup final tickets or is it just a big secret?  Seems odd to ask fans to donate for their virtual tickets and not have the decency to tell them how much has been raised. 

Absolutely. A bit disappointed that there has been no info so far. 

[Spellczech]

For those above wondering why FOH is operated as a charity, and the benefits thereof, and thus why it is better this way rather than donating directly to a football club for most of us...

 

https://knowhow.ncvo.org.uk/setting-up/charitable-status/pros_and_cons_of_becoming_a_charity

 

The reasons a charity board will have several people on it is governance, division and sharing of responsibility and skillsets. Having just one or two makes it more likely the board will run off with the money...

[novoman]

Just checked the foundation of Hearts page. I worked it out to be.....

 

Dec total  £152,199 

 

Nov total £ 143,433 

 

thats is an increase of £8,766 

considering how low key this was that’s a decent amount. 

[Boris5115]

6 minutes ago, novoman said:

Just checked the foundation of Hearts page. I worked it out to be.....

 

Dec total  £152,199 

 

Nov total £ 143,433 

 

thats is an increase of £8,766 

considering how low key this was that’s a decent amount. 

Whilst 152,199 is a decent total I'd say its disappointing that as going by this figure few have decided to donate their ticket money from the final. 

[soonbe110]

2 hours ago, Boris5115 said:

Whilst 152,199 is a decent total I'd say its disappointing that as going by this figure few have decided to donate their ticket money from the final. 

Very disappointing. 

[neilnunb]

That is pretty disappointing.

 

Obviously an expensive time of year even in normal times but thought a mass email or something could have gone out a couple of days before the final. 

 

Hey ho.

 

 

[Jambo-Fox]

3 hours ago, novoman said:

Just checked the foundation of Hearts page. I worked it out to be.....

 

Dec total  £152,199 

 

Nov total £ 143,433 

 

thats is an increase of £8,766 

considering how low key this was that’s a decent amount. 

Agreed many clubs would be delighted with that but, it shows that perhaps not as many as expected ‘put their money where their mouth’ is!!

[John Findlay]

The cup final was the 20th. When was the December £152k given to the club. The start or end of December?

If the start, then I would expect January's donation to be very healthy too.

[Bainy]

Yeah not convinced that will have captured the full amount.