Present and future governance of the club.

[David Black]

The point of my original post was to get this issue discussed and not just be forgotten about. If any organisation/business never evolves , it stagnates and in our case the team stagnates as a result, because at the end of the day we are a results driven business. However , now we are where we are, it should give the club a great opportunity to reorganise both on and of the field where required. We appear to be doing that on the playing side, and no matter how good a job has been done by both the club and FOH in the past , aspects of any organisation/business can always be improved. 

[Last Laff]

1 hour ago, Harry Potter said:

Some very good points, and as i have said before, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Thanks mate 👍

[Last Laff]

1 hour ago, The Fonz said:

I think a competent CEO has to be one of our priorities just now. If Budge is to stay on it should only be in an ambassadorial capacity or as a link to these wealthy benefactors that she knows. 

 

Had we been relegated rather than demoted (very likely given our form) there would have been riots outside Tynecastle.

Ending up in the championship should be the end of the road for any Chairperson or board at Hearts and rightly so. It's even more galling given the huge amount of investment in the club and the platform that we have, all pissed away through sheer incompetence.

In terms of the other board members, I don't know too much about how good they are at their day jobs however you would have to question why none of them were able to intervene in the Levein fiasco when it was abundantly clear that he had to go.

 

If the other board members, particularly our FoH reps weren't able to force a decision then you'd have to question their purpose. Either they will have pushed for change and not been able to affect things, or they stood idly by and watched while Levein turned us into pound for pound probably the worst team in the UK.

 

With the FoH funds, we still have a good platform to build from (despite being relegated/demoted and set back years). One thing Budge and FoH have been great at is bringing money into the club and turnover is good. Their downfall has been a complete inability to use that money effectively. The millions blown on the football department and the huge overspend on the stand are appalling (FWIW my ST is in the Main Stand and it's decent) but the spend on it and the *questionable* procurement is shocking.

 

If run properly there is no reason why we shouldn't be Top 4 every season, competing in Europe regularly and challenging for cups. Relegation* is something that no chairperson at Hearts should survive. We have a fantastic and generous fanbase pumping money into the club through ST's and FoH, the board has to be far more accountable than they have been so far. 

Absolutely spot on. 

[i8hibsh]

As long as Ann Budge is running the show, winning will never be a 'thing' for us.

[Thomaso]

1 hour ago, The Fonz said:

I think a competent CEO has to be one of our priorities just now. If Budge is to stay on it should only be in an ambassadorial capacity or as a link to these wealthy benefactors that she knows. 

 

Had we been relegated rather than demoted (very likely given our form) there would have been riots outside Tynecastle.

Ending up in the championship should be the end of the road for any Chairperson or board at Hearts and rightly so. It's even more galling given the huge amount of investment in the club and the platform that we have, all pissed away through sheer incompetence.

In terms of the other board members, I don't know too much about how good they are at their day jobs however you would have to question why none of them were able to intervene in the Levein fiasco when it was abundantly clear that he had to go.

 

If the other board members, particularly our FoH reps weren't able to force a decision then you'd have to question their purpose. Either they will have pushed for change and not been able to affect things, or they stood idly by and watched while Levein turned us into pound for pound probably the worst team in the UK.

 

With the FoH funds, we still have a good platform to build from (despite being relegated/demoted and set back years). One thing Budge and FoH have been great at is bringing money into the club and turnover is good. Their downfall has been a complete inability to use that money effectively. The millions blown on the football department and the huge overspend on the stand are appalling (FWIW my ST is in the Main Stand and it's decent) but the spend on it and the *questionable* procurement is shocking.

 

If run properly there is no reason why we shouldn't be Top 4 every season, competing in Europe regularly and challenging for cups. Relegation* is something that no chairperson at Hearts should survive. We have a fantastic and generous fanbase pumping money into the club through ST's and FoH, the board has to be far more accountable than they have been so far. 

That is a contender for post of the year! 👍

[Jumper]

15 hours ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

 

Basic steel stand... 

Ffs, not too mention the time scales and disposal of the old number 

 

We built the museum as well. 

 

Basic steel stand. 

 

This is what we had before... 

 

 

 

 

We now have

 

 

Folk moan about it as well😳

Hard to understand why people moan about. 

By the way is the first photo so old that it is CG as keeper?

[Cut The Crap]

2 hours ago, The Fonz said:

I think a competent CEO has to be one of our priorities just now. If Budge is to stay on it should only be in an ambassadorial capacity or as a link to these wealthy benefactors that she knows. 

 

Had we been relegated rather than demoted (very likely given our form) there would have been riots outside Tynecastle.

Ending up in the championship should be the end of the road for any Chairperson or board at Hearts and rightly so. It's even more galling given the huge amount of investment in the club and the platform that we have, all pissed away through sheer incompetence.

In terms of the other board members, I don't know too much about how good they are at their day jobs however you would have to question why none of them were able to intervene in the Levein fiasco when it was abundantly clear that he had to go.

 

If the other board members, particularly our FoH reps weren't able to force a decision then you'd have to question their purpose. Either they will have pushed for change and not been able to affect things, or they stood idly by and watched while Levein turned us into pound for pound probably the worst team in the UK.

 

With the FoH funds, we still have a good platform to build from (despite being relegated/demoted and set back years). One thing Budge and FoH have been great at is bringing money into the club and turnover is good. Their downfall has been a complete inability to use that money effectively. The millions blown on the football department and the huge overspend on the stand are appalling (FWIW my ST is in the Main Stand and it's decent) but the spend on it and the *questionable* procurement is shocking.

 

If run properly there is no reason why we shouldn't be Top 4 every season, competing in Europe regularly and challenging for cups. Relegation* is something that no chairperson at Hearts should survive. We have a fantastic and generous fanbase pumping money into the club through ST's and FoH, the board has to be far more accountable than they have been so far. 

 

Very well summarized.

[OldGorgie]

3 hours ago, The Fonz said:

I think a competent CEO has to be one of our priorities just now. If Budge is to stay on it should only be in an ambassadorial capacity or as a link to these wealthy benefactors that she knows. 

 

Had we been relegated rather than demoted (very likely given our form) there would have been riots outside Tynecastle.

Ending up in the championship should be the end of the road for any Chairperson or board at Hearts and rightly so. It's even more galling given the huge amount of investment in the club and the platform that we have, all pissed away through sheer incompetence.

In terms of the other board members, I don't know too much about how good they are at their day jobs however you would have to question why none of them were able to intervene in the Levein fiasco when it was abundantly clear that he had to go.

 

If the other board members, particularly our FoH reps weren't able to force a decision then you'd have to question their purpose. Either they will have pushed for change and not been able to affect things, or they stood idly by and watched while Levein turned us into pound for pound probably the worst team in the UK.

 

With the FoH funds, we still have a good platform to build from (despite being relegated/demoted and set back years). One thing Budge and FoH have been great at is bringing money into the club and turnover is good. Their downfall has been a complete inability to use that money effectively. The millions blown on the football department and the huge overspend on the stand are appalling (FWIW my ST is in the Main Stand and it's decent) but the spend on it and the *questionable* procurement is shocking.

 

If run properly there is no reason why we shouldn't be Top 4 every season, competing in Europe regularly and challenging for cups. Relegation* is something that no chairperson at Hearts should survive. We have a fantastic and generous fanbase pumping money into the club through ST's and FoH, the board has to be far more accountable than they have been so far. 

The easiest thing in the world is to sit back and criticise. Far harder to run a successful football club than you think. Look at our history and then the attendances over a good few decades and it’s not the rosy picture you paint in the last paragraph.

[The Fonz]

1 minute ago, OldGorgie said:

The easiest thing in the world is to sit back and criticise. Far harder to run a successful football club than you think. Look at our history and then the attendances over a good few decades and it’s not the rosy picture you paint in the last paragraph.

This is an attitude I just don't get. We will be playing football in the championship next season, let that sink in. It's unthinkable that anyone could defend the leadership that's taken us to this point. 

 

Running a football club is complex, but why are we doing it worse than anyone else? We are or have been over the last few years (on the park) the worst run club in the UK, without question. 

 

If we don't hold the people in charge to account we'll never achieve anything. Something, or a number of things have gone disastrously wrong at this club. 

 

Stuart Wallace sent an email following the arbitration talking about the unfairness of it all, etc. What I'd like to understand is what measures are being taken internally to address what's went wrong and the board take any accountability for our situation. 

 

Regarding it not all being rosy, Hearts fans under 40 will have only really known one relegation (under unique circumstances with the deduction of points, etc). Relegation* last season is the worst it's ever been and worse than anyone ever thought it could be. 

 

Budge and the club deserve all the criticism they get. 

 

 

[davemclaren]

Just now, The Fonz said:

This is an attitude I just don't get. We will be playing football in the championship next season, let that sink in. It's unthinkable that anyone could defend the leadership that's taken us to this point. 

 

Running a football club is complex, but why are we doing it worse than anyone else? We are or have been over the last few years (on the park) the worst run club in the UK, without question. 

 

If we don't hold the people in charge to account we'll never achieve anything. Something, or a number of things have gone disastrously wrong at this club. 

 

Stuart Wallace sent an email following the arbitration talking about the unfairness of it all, etc. What I'd like to understand is what measures are being taken internally to address what's went wrong and the board take any accountability for our situation. 

 

Regarding it not all being rosy, Hearts fans under 40 will have only really known one relegation (under unique circumstances with the deduction of points, etc). Relegation* last season is the worst it's ever been and worse than anyone ever thought it could be. 

 

Budge and the club deserve all the criticism they get. 

 

 

Worse than the clubs that have gone into administration or got liquidated? Worse than Sunderland? Worse than Hull who have dropped two divisions in two seasons?

[The Fonz]

2 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

Worse than the clubs that have gone into administration or got liquidated? Worse than Sunderland? Worse than Hull who have dropped two divisions in two seasons?

I meant specifically on the park, so I wouldn't compare to liquidated or administration teams. 

 

For my money, Hearts in the championship is far worse than Sunderland or Hull in League One. We're the third biggest team in the country and you've got Livi, Hamilton, Ross County and St Mirren in the league above us. 

[Bazzas right boot]

3 hours ago, The Fonz said:

I think a competent CEO has to be one of our priorities just now. If Budge is to stay on it should only be in an ambassadorial capacity or as a link to these wealthy benefactors that she knows. 

 

Had we been relegated rather than demoted (very likely given our form) there would have been riots outside Tynecastle.

Ending up in the championship should be the end of the road for any Chairperson or board at Hearts and rightly so. It's even more galling given the huge amount of investment in the club and the platform that we have, all pissed away through sheer incompetence.

In terms of the other board members, I don't know too much about how good they are at their day jobs however you would have to question why none of them were able to intervene in the Levein fiasco when it was abundantly clear that he had to go.

 

If the other board members, particularly our FoH reps weren't able to force a decision then you'd have to question their purpose. Either they will have pushed for change and not been able to affect things, or they stood idly by and watched while Levein turned us into pound for pound probably the worst team in the UK.

 

With the FoH funds, we still have a good platform to build from (despite being relegated/demoted and set back years). One thing Budge and FoH have been great at is bringing money into the club and turnover is good. Their downfall has been a complete inability to use that money effectively. The millions blown on the football department and the huge overspend on the stand are appalling (FWIW my ST is in the Main Stand and it's decent) but the spend on it and the *questionable* procurement is shocking.

 

If run properly there is no reason why we shouldn't be Top 4 every season, competing in Europe regularly and challenging for cups. Relegation* is something that no chairperson at Hearts should survive. We have a fantastic and generous fanbase pumping money into the club through ST's and FoH, the board has to be far more accountable than they have been so far. 

 

 

Decent post in general  but it all rested on that big if- if we were relegated. 

 

I'll flip it, we imo would have finished 2nd bottom and won the cup. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[davemclaren]

7 minutes ago, The Fonz said:

I meant specifically on the park, so I wouldn't compare to liquidated or administration teams. 

 

For my money, Hearts in the championship is far worse than Sunderland or Hull in League One. We're the third biggest team in the country and you've got Livi, Hamilton, Ross County and St Mirren in the league above us. 

Going into admin got Wigan relegated and Bury got expelled so significant on field impact.  Lots of ‘small’ teams above Hull and Sunderland. 

[The Fonz]

Just now, davemclaren said:

Going into admin got Wigan relegated and Bury got expelled so significant on field impact.  Lots of ‘small’ teams above Hull and Sunderland. 

As I said the off the park there's not really a comparison with some of the English club, particularly the basket cases you mention. I'm not a fan of Budges, but I know she's not a maniac like some of the charlatans in the English Championship and League One. 

 

However, I stand by my point that on the park we're pound for pound the worst team in the UK. In terms of size of club, resources, etc. us being in the Scottish Championship (basically a pub league) is punching so far below our weight it's unbelievable. 

 

[David Black]

18 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

Worse than the clubs that have gone into administration or got liquidated? Worse than Sunderland? Worse than Hull who have dropped two divisions in two seasons?

Sunderland have been a basket case for decades and we are a far bigger club than Hull. In my 65 years of following Hearts, pound for pound, last season was the worst by far in those 65 years. It would go a long way with most supporters if the board showed some form of contrition regarding their failure. 

[David Black]

2 minutes ago, The Fonz said:

As I said the off the park there's not really a comparison with some of the English club, particularly the basket cases you mention. I'm not a fan of Budges, but I know she's not a maniac like some of the charlatans in the English Championship and League One. 

 

However, I stand by my point that on the park we're pound for pound the worst team in the UK. In terms of size of club, resources, etc. us being in the Scottish Championship (basically a pub league) is punching so far below our weight it's unbelievable. 

 

Agree 100%. 

[davemclaren]

2 minutes ago, David Black said:

Sunderland have been a basket case for decades and we are a far bigger club than Hull. In my 65 years of following Hearts, pound for pound, last season was the worst by far in those 65 years. It would go a long way with most supporters if the board showed some form of contrition regarding their failure. 

A walk of shame along Gorgie Road perhaps? 😄 what measures are you using to judge club size?

[Last Laff]

1 minute ago, davemclaren said:

A walk of shame along Gorgie Road perhaps? 😄 what measures are you using to judge club size?

Take any responsibility and apologise for a start?  The FoH stating the season regardless was unforgivable?  It seems nobody seems be taking any accountability at all.  

[The Fonz]

14 minutes ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

 

Decent post in general  but it all rested on that big if- if we were relegated. 

 

I'll flip it, we imo would have finished 2nd bottom and won the cup. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'd like to think we would have done enough to stay up and I think Stendel would have seen off Hibs in the semi at least. 

 

That being said, we should never have been anywhere close to the bottom to begin with. A few wins might have got us out of jail, but there's no getting away from the fact that all this was a long time coming and that's a systemic failure on behalf of the club. The people responsible should be held to account for that. (I like Dave's idea of a GoT style walk of shame... 😂). 

[davemclaren]

1 minute ago, Last Laff said:

Take any responsibility and apologise for a start?  The FoH stating the season regardless was unforgivable?  It seems nobody seems be taking any accountability at all.  

So you don’t think the board take responsibility for our performances last season and feel they were unacceptable?

[David Black]

1 minute ago, davemclaren said:

A walk of shame along Gorgie Road perhaps? 😄 what measures are you using to judge club size?

Well the first sentence is just silly. A simple statement would suffice. Over the decades Hearts are a far bigger club than Hull. Present day Hull like all English clubs have millions thrown at them due to SKY, however Hull have never been or will be the third biggest club in England or have the third biggest support in England . We have always been that in Scotland. It is all relevant to the clubs you are competing against and for the salaries we have spent, the monies paid in by FOH and then to end up in the championship is a disgrace. If the board cannot or will not acknowledge that then can we be confident it won't happen again. I find it worrying that a minority seem happy to just sweep this under the carpet.  

[davemclaren]

1 minute ago, David Black said:

Well the first sentence is just silly. A simple statement would suffice. Over the decades Hearts are a far bigger club than Hull. Present day Hull like all English clubs have millions thrown at them due to SKY, however Hull have never been or will be the third biggest club in England or have the third biggest support in England . We have always been that in Scotland. It is all relevant to the clubs you are competing against and for the salaries we have spent, the monies paid in by FOH and then to end up in the championship is a disgrace. If the board cannot or will not acknowledge that then can we be confident it won't happen again. I find it worrying that a minority seem happy to just sweep this under the carpet.  

So you’ll be happy once they’ve performed the relevant act of contrition?

[pettigrewsstylist]

Have we paid all of the BIDCO loan dues? I beleive we have now.

Presume the monthly contributions FOH are providing to club are for ongoing capital?

Have FOH had written acceptance of loan repayment in full from BIDCO?

 

Apolgies for stacatto question style...just keen to establish if anyone can indulge me......

[Randy Marsh]

30 minutes ago, The Fonz said:

I meant specifically on the park, so I wouldn't compare to liquidated or administration teams. 

 

For my money, Hearts in the championship is far worse than Sunderland or Hull in League One. We're the third biggest team in the country and you've got Livi, Hamilton, Ross County and St Mirren in the league above us. 

Agreed.  We were domoted from probably the weakest top flight in my lifetime.  At least there were excuses for being relegated in 2014.  And it was a very competive 10 team top flight when we went down for the first time in the late 1970's.  Its just inexcusable this time. 

[davemclaren]

4 minutes ago, Randy Marsh said:

Agreed.  We were domoted from probably the weakest top flight in my lifetime.  At least there were excuses for being relegated in 2014.  And it was a very competive 10 team top flight when we went down for the first time in the late 1970's.  Its just inexcusable this time. 

Particularly so if the season had finished. 

[Jambo-Fox]

47 minutes ago, The Fonz said:

I meant specifically on the park, so I wouldn't compare to liquidated or administration teams. 

 

For my money, Hearts in the championship is far worse than Sunderland or Hull in League One. We're the third biggest team in the country and you've got Livi, Hamilton, Ross County and St Mirren in the league above us. 

Notts County, Ipswich Town, Portsmouth, Leeds, Coventry, Partick Thistle, where they’ve been and where they are could all be considered contenders in the recent years worst team in the UK debate!

 

The good thing in all this discussion is that whilst the recent on field performance has been poor, the off field has been excellent! Therefore changing the clubs on field performances is made a lot easier!

[Jambo-Fox]

17 minutes ago, Randy Marsh said:

Agreed.  We were domoted from probably the weakest top flight in my lifetime.  At least there were excuses for being relegated in 2014.  And it was a very competive 10 team top flight when we went down for the first time in the late 1970's.  Its just inexcusable this time. 

Whilst this years expulsion might be inexcusable (and I don’t disagree with that) it’s actually better than other demotions due to the current strong business side of the club. This means that rectifying matters should be quicker and better! We just need to learn the lessons so it never happens again!

[The Fonz]

Just now, Jambo-Fox said:

Notts County, Ipswich Town, Portsmouth, Leeds, Coventry, Partick Thistle, where they’ve been and where they are could all be considered contenders in the recent years worst team in the UK debate!

 

The good thing in all this discussion is that whilst the recent on field performance has been poor, the off field has been excellent! Therefore changing the clubs on field performances is made a lot easier!

Worst performing club could be an interesting thread in future. I think the closest comparison to us in respect to club size compared to league performance is Leeds United. However, there's was all tied into finances etc, we don't have that excuse. 

 

You could argue that a lot of the good work off the field has been undone by the failure to manage the "football department" in a semi competent fashion.

 

As I said in a previous post, no chairperson at Hearts should survive a relegation. We can talk about the achievements off the park, but ultimately we're a football club and the reason we're all here is to win football games.

 

What we've seen happen at our club is unforgivable and the issues run a lot deeper than just players not performing as expected. 

[Footballfirst]

3 hours ago, David Black said:

The point of my original post was to get this issue discussed and not just be forgotten about. If any organisation/business never evolves , it stagnates and in our case the team stagnates as a result, because at the end of the day we are a results driven business. However , now we are where we are, it should give the club a great opportunity to reorganise both on and of the field where required. We appear to be doing that on the playing side, and no matter how good a job has been done by both the club and FOH in the past , aspects of any organisation/business can always be improved. 

 

I'm afraid that your concern about the future governance of FOH and the Club is three years too late.

 

FOH made their initial proposals to its membership on 1 May 2017.  Those proposals went through an extended consultation process, before the FOH board produced amended proposals on 25 July 2018.  A further shorter consultation period took place before proposals were put to the FOH AGM in December 2018.  The AGM in December 2018 voted through permission for the FOH Board to proceed to the next step of setting out the required changes to the Articles of Association, with an overwhelming majority.  The next AGM in December 2019 voted through the actual changes to the articles, again with an overwhelming majority.

 

The only point outstanding is to confirm whether the voting threshold for the sale of FOH shares should be 90% or 75%.

 

It will now be extremely difficult to implement any changes to the governance of both FOH and the Club, unless they have the support of at least 75% of the FOH membership. That is a big ask if the FOH and Club Boards  do not support such changes.   

 

I would hope that the Governance model does not become set in stone and thus becomes a barrier to change, particularly if the FOH/Club relationship is not effective as hoped going forward. In those circumstances, it needs be flexible enough to adapt to the prevailing circumstances, 3, 5, 10 years or more down the line.  

[Last Laff]

53 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

So you don’t think the board take responsibility for our performances last season and feel they were unacceptable?

No I feel they’ve not acknowledged the fact.  We got told that Levein knew what he was doing and knew best for years and that he would decide when best to go, has anyone ever said that’s not good enough?  And it wasn’t just last season, it was a lot, lot longer than that.  We get the patronising wonderful fans, gives your money that’s about it. 

[David Black]

55 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

So you’ll be happy once they’ve performed the relevant act of contrition?

I think most would be delighted to see a statement from the board accepting they got things badly wrong and as a result we have been relegated/demoted/expelled and that has cost us millions. That would then put the subject to rest and I certainly would accept that. Let me ask you, do you not think that given the financial support we have given this club over the past 6 years, the commitment we have shown which has been and still is incredible, should not expect something from the board. It would not be a sign of weakness, but a sign of acknowledgement. I think we deserve that. 

[OldGorgie]

31 minutes ago, The Fonz said:

Worst performing club could be an interesting thread in future. I think the closest comparison to us in respect to club size compared to league performance is Leeds United. However, there's was all tied into finances etc, we don't have that excuse. 

 

You could argue that a lot of the good work off the field has been undone by the failure to manage the "football department" in a semi competent fashion.

 

As I said in a previous post, no chairperson at Hearts should survive a relegation. We can talk about the achievements off the park, but ultimately we're a football club and the reason we're all here is to win football games.

 

What we've seen happen at our club is unforgivable and the issues run a lot deeper than just players not performing as expected. 

I can only assume that you have just started watching Hearts. This attitude that people must resign because we were demoted (not relegated) is frankly pub talk.

[David Black]

23 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

 

I'm afraid that your concern about the future governance of FOH and the Club is three years too late.

 

FOH made their initial proposals to its membership on 1 May 2017.  Those proposals went through an extended consultation process, before the FOH board produced amended proposals on 25 July 2018.  A further shorter consultation period took place before proposals were put to the FOH AGM in December 2018.  The AGM in December 2018 voted through permission for the FOH Board to proceed to the next step of setting out the required changes to the Articles of Association, with an overwhelming majority.  The next AGM in December 2019 voted through the actual changes to the articles, again with an overwhelming majority.

 

The only point outstanding is to confirm whether the voting threshold for the sale of FOH shares should be 90% or 75%.

 

It will now be extremely difficult to implement any changes to the governance of both FOH and the Club, unless they have the support of at least 75% of the FOH membership. That is a big ask if the FOH and Club Boards  do not support such changes.   

 

I would hope that the Governance model does not become set in stone and thus becomes a barrier to change, particularly if the FOH/Club relationship is not effective as hoped going forward. In those circumstances, it needs be flexible enough to adapt to the prevailing circumstances, 3, 5, 10 years or more down the line.  

The last paragraph , whilst not the timescale I would suggest, is none the less exactly what I am suggesting. I hope we do not as a club get into the nice cosy boardrooms that have plagued this club for decades. There has to be accountability as the FOH members are now in effect the owners of the club. 

[David Black]

6 minutes ago, OldGorgie said:

I can only assume that you have just started watching Hearts. This attitude that people must resign because we were demoted (not relegated) is frankly pub talk.

If a CEO of any business made bad decisions to the level that cost that business millions, then that CEO would most certainly be removed. It happens all over the business world and sadly football is now a business as well as a sport. 

[OldGorgie]

2 minutes ago, David Black said:

If a CEO of any business made bad decisions to the level that cost that business millions, then that CEO would most certainly be removed. It happens all over the business world and sadly football is now a business as well as a sport. 

That’s the simplistic view but it’s not how things work-in practice. Boards generally take sympathetic views to business downturns and tend to remember the positive attributes of the CEO. Football is emotional and that’s why we often hear the cry “ sack them all”. 

[Bazzas right boot]

13 minutes ago, David Black said:

If a CEO of any business made bad decisions to the level that cost that business millions, then that CEO would most certainly be removed. It happens all over the business world and sadly football is now a business as well as a sport. 

 

 

Where to start... 

Ceo's do change, usually at the cost of millions and nice pensions/ shares etc. 

 

They also often cost a lot to replace, usually starting at 5 figure salaries to the millions. 

 

Ceo's also have directors and managers that have responsibility for their area and don't automatically resign if one fails, they replace the failures. 

 

Football, although a business is unique, for starters many run at a loss ( for decades) and carry huge debts yet still spend and carry on. 

 

The thinking of sack anyone that fails and replace is partly why Hearts for Over 50 years have underachieved imo. 

 

The sack Robbie, "he's pish" is a daft and short sighted attitude imo, and creates a blame culture rather than a continuous improvement one. 

 

Folk are happy when someone is sacked rather than thinking- is this for the best going forward? 

It satisfies folk, but actually solves nothing. In fact it often creates bigger problems and the cycle is repeated often in worse circumstances. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's a ridiculous comparison Tbh. 

[The Fonz]

33 minutes ago, OldGorgie said:

I can only assume that you have just started watching Hearts. This attitude that people must resign because we were demoted (not relegated) is frankly pub talk.

I've been watching Hearts for 20 years and without question last season was the worst team I have seen by far. An embarrassment to themselves, the club and competitive sport in general.

 

As David Black mentioned a CEO in the commercial world would not survive such a catastrophic level of failure, it should be no different here. Relegated or demoted, it doesn't change the fact that what has been allowed to unfold is completely unacceptable and those responsible should be held to account. 

[The Fonz]

5 minutes ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

 

Where to start... 

Ceo's do change, usually at the cost of millions and nice pensions/ shares etc. 

 

They also often cost a lot to replace, usually starting at 5 figure salaries to the millions. 

 

Ceo's also have directors and managers that have responsibility for their area and don't automatically resign if one fails, they replace the failures. 

 

Football, although a business is unique, for starters many run at a loss ( for decades) and carry huge debts yet still spend and carry on. 

 

The thinking of sack anyone that fails and replace is partly why Hearts for Over 50 years have underachieved imo. 

 

The sack Robbie, "he's pish" is a daft and short sighted attitude imo, and creates a blame culture rather than a continuous improvement one. 

 

Folk are happy when someone is sacked rather than thinking- is this for the best going forward? 

It satisfies folk, but actually solves nothing. In fact it often creates bigger problems and the cycle is repeated often in worse circumstances. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's a ridiculous comparison Tbh. 

CEO's cost a lot of money, no argument there. However, if you look at the value-add that a good CEO could or would have then the salary is almost irrelevant. Taking it to a very basic level here, but a good CEO sees that Levein needs to go before or after the cup final last year, runs a good recruitment process to bring a new manager in and we don't get relegated- cost saving of millions.

 

There isn't really a fair comparison from a small % of fans that wanted Robbie out compared to those who wanted Levein out or indeed Budge. Robbie wasn't perfect first time round, but the vast majority were more than content with him. Wanting the current board held to account for getting us back into the championship is more than fair. 

 

On culture, I'd argue that the toxic culture created at Hearts is far worse than what you get when people are sacked for failing. A load of players on huge money that aren't motivated to perform, recruitment has been an absolute shambles and no one was ever there to be held accountable, see; Levein, Daly, MacPhee, the players, etc. 

 

As a club we have definitely underachieved over the last 50 years, but the idea that sticking with a board and a chairperson that has overseen us go back into the championship is ludicrous. If we got relegated from the championship into League One this season would that be enough to warrant Budge out? How bad does it have to get before we hold people to account?

[David Black]

16 minutes ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

 

Where to start... 

Ceo's do change, usually at the cost of millions and nice pensions/ shares etc. 

 

They also often cost a lot to replace, usually starting at 5 figure salaries to the millions. 

 

Ceo's also have directors and managers that have responsibility for their area and don't automatically resign if one fails, they replace the failures. 

 

Football, although a business is unique, for starters many run at a loss ( for decades) and carry huge debts yet still spend and carry on. 

 

The thinking of sack anyone that fails and replace is partly why Hearts for Over 50 years have underachieved imo. 

 

The sack Robbie, "he's pish" is a daft and short sighted attitude imo, and creates a blame culture rather than a continuous improvement one. 

 

Folk are happy when someone is sacked rather than thinking- is this for the best going forward? 

It satisfies folk, but actually solves nothing. In fact it often creates bigger problems and the cycle is repeated often in worse circumstances. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's a ridiculous comparison Tbh. 

To start with I think even AB is looking to stand down and take more of a back seat, something I would be delighted with as she has many things she brings to the club. As for our underachieving I could not agree more and that is down to consecutive boards falling into a nice wee cosy existence. That is where we appear to be heading. No accountability , no decisions being questioned. We are in danger of doing a Doncaster here, that's it done, nothing to see here, let's just move on. Let us remember one thing here, we the fans , bar the paperwork, own this club, the board are just members of FOH like everyone else. 

Edited August 13, 2020 by David Black

[Bazzas right boot]

5 minutes ago, The Fonz said:

CEO's cost a lot of money, no argument there. However, if you look at the value-add that a good CEO could or would have then the salary is almost irrelevant. Taking it to a very basic level here, but a good CEO sees that Levein needs to go before or after the cup final last year, runs a good recruitment process to bring a new manager in and we don't get relegated- cost saving of millions.

 

There isn't really a fair comparison from a small % of fans that wanted Robbie out compared to those who wanted Levein out or indeed Budge. Robbie wasn't perfect first time round, but the vast majority were more than content with him. Wanting the current board held to account for getting us back into the championship is more than fair. 

 

On culture, I'd argue that the toxic culture created at Hearts is far worse than what you get when people are sacked for failing. A load of players on huge money that aren't motivated to perform, recruitment has been an absolute shambles and no one was ever there to be held accountable, see; Levein, Daly, MacPhee, the players, etc. 

 

As a club we have definitely underachieved over the last 50 years, but the idea that sticking with a board and a chairperson that has overseen us go back into the championship is ludicrous. If we got relegated from the championship into League One this season would that be enough to warrant Budge out? How bad does it have to get before we hold people to account?

 

 

The thing is, none of that offers a better solution or guarantees success. 

 

Sack him/ her, get someone else in, cheer, then sack him. 

 

Rinse and repeat. 

Has the football side failed - yes. 

Who was to blame, was it Budge I dunno Tbh, I never thought when we were 1 nil up in the sc final, Budge is doing great or I never thought once when we romped the championship "we'll done Budge". 

 

When we beat hibs and knock rangers out, I never thought "Budge has really got us going again", I bigged up Stendel. 

 

Also, I hate blame. It solves nothing Tbh in life, not only football. 

 

CL should have been sacked at the start of the season, he wasn't ( on a 6th place league finish and a lc sf and sc final, imo it wasn't a definitive sacking criteria). 

 

He was sacked as manager in November, imo that was the wrong time to sack him, should have waited until Jan but the fans got what they wanted. 

 

In football if we win games or lose games - I "blame" the manager generally. 

 

If we go into admin, get into massive debts, I blame our ceo. 

 

Folk wanting Budge out have just shifted their sights as CL has gone and imo certain folk need a figure to point at and hate/ blame. 

Not my way of thinking at all. 

 

Budge leaving will neither improve or make the football side worse for this season. 

[The Fonz]

3 minutes ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

 

The thing is, none of that offers a better solution or guarantees success. 

 

Sack him/ her, get someone else in, cheer, then sack him. 

 

Rinse and repeat. 

Has the football side failed - yes. 

Who was to blame, was it Budge I dunno Tbh, I never thought when we were 1 nil up in the sc final, Budge is doing great or I never thought once when we romped the championship "we'll done Budge". 

 

When we beat hibs and knock rangers out, I never thought "Budge has really got us going again", I bigged up Stendel. 

 

Also, I hate blame. It solves nothing Tbh in life, not only football. 

 

CL should have been sacked at the start of the season, he wasn't ( on a 6th place league finish and a lc sf and sc final, imo it wasn't a definitive sacking criteria). 

 

He was sacked as manager in November, imo that was the wrong time to sack him, should have waited until Jan but the fans got what they wanted. 

 

In football if we win games or lose games - I "blame" the manager generally. 

 

If we go into admin, get into massive debts, I blame our ceo. 

 

Folk wanting Budge out have just shifted their sights as CL has gone and imo certain folk need a figure to point at and hate/ blame. 

Not my way of thinking at all. 

 

Budge leaving will neither improve or make the football side worse for this season. 

I'm the same as you in a number of ways, I want to watch as winning games and in an ideal world I wouldn't spend any time thinking about the board or the chairperson. 

 

Another CL debate isn't required, but the form from October onwards was a disgrace and imo it was clear he needed to go in the summer.

 

Budges failure to deal with Levein is what's killed her and that is the primary reason why we've ended up here. That's her having a direct effect on what we see on the park. 

 

What you're calling blame is what I would call accountability. Leaders are responsible for creating organisational culture and it's clear that ours was toxic. Given what's happened I don't see why any Hearts fan wouldn't have some some serious questions about the governance of the club. 

[Bazzas right boot]

6 minutes ago, The Fonz said:

I'm the same as you in a number of ways, I want to watch as winning games and in an ideal world I wouldn't spend any time thinking about the board or the chairperson. 

 

Another CL debate isn't required, but the form from October onwards was a disgrace and imo it was clear he needed to go in the summer.

 

Budges failure to deal with Levein is what's killed her and that is the primary reason why we've ended up here. That's her having a direct effect on what we see on the park. 

 

What you're calling blame is what I would call accountability. Leaders are responsible for creating organisational culture and it's clear that ours was toxic. Given what's happened I don't see why any Hearts fan wouldn't have some some serious questions about the governance of the club. 

 

 

Nah, I think some want a figure to blame. 

 

Budge will go soon, we'll be in a good position for the next generation, having a debt free Hearts with great facilities is exciting longterm. 

The good thing she'll only hand over to someone who she trusts. 

 

Short term, we need to see what happens under Robbie and the team. 

I'm happy with that. 

Removing Ann for an unknown is a risk that at this time will have little or no reward. 

We have a new management team, I see no point in replacing her at this time , what would Change, what would you want to change for next season that hasn't been done? 

 

Edited August 13, 2020 by Smith's right boot

[The Fonz]

17 minutes ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

 

Nah, I think some want a figure to blame. 

 

Budge will go soon, we'll be in a good position for the next generation, having a debt free Hearts with great facilities is exciting longterm. 

The good thing she'll only hand over to someone who she trusts. 

 

Short term, we need to see what happens under Robbie and the team. 

I'm happy with that. 

Removing Ann for an unknown is a risk that at this time will have little or no reward. 

We have a new management team, I see no point in replacing her at this time , what would Change, what would you want to change for next season that hasn't been done? 

 

We are in the championship. It's a failure of proportions that is almost unthinkable. 

 

When Ann leaves we may be on a sound footing financially, but when you consider the football aspect (which we agree is the most important thing) her reign has been a disaster. A relegation is not something that can be glossed over. 

 

For this season coming I can't fault the board, Robbie is a solid appointment and will get us up. But the damage has been done already, hence the league that we'll be competing in. 

 

Can you not acknowledge that a lot has to have gone seriously wrong at the club for us to end up here? And that any board that sees a club with our resources underperform so abysmally should come under some form of scrutiny? If not what's the point? How bad do things get before things are called into question?

[Bazzas right boot]

28 minutes ago, The Fonz said:

We are in the championship. It's a failure of proportions that is almost unthinkable. 

 

When Ann leaves we may be on a sound footing financially, but when you consider the football aspect (which we agree is the most important thing) her reign has been a disaster. A relegation is not something that can be glossed over. 

 

For this season coming I can't fault the board, Robbie is a solid appointment and will get us up. But the damage has been done already, hence the league that we'll be competing in. 

 

Can you not acknowledge that a lot has to have gone seriously wrong at the club for us to end up here? And that any board that sees a club with our resources underperform so abysmally should come under some form of scrutiny? If not what's the point? How bad do things get before things are called into question?

 

 

I acknowledge the failures but see no point in replacing Budge just now. 

I don't see how that rectifies or helps the failures. 

 

I don't look at blame, I look at how best we go forward, atm Ann as ceo is best imo. 

I think Robbie will improve the team. 

 

We won't agree, you want blood for the failings imo but have no clue on how best to go forward, you just want her gone as you blame her for our relegation. 

 

If she was to blame/ accountable , why remove cl? Did you want him to stay but Ann to leave? 

 

I blame and hold CL, the Mgt team, stendel, his Mgt team and the players accountable for relegation. 

I don't blame one person. 

More importantly I also blame the spfl and Doncaster for the vote. 

 

Even More important than that I am looking forward and really not interested in propotioning blame as it's not helpful or constructive in any way. 

Edited August 13, 2020 by Smith's right boot

[OldGorgie]

The difference between successful business People and bar roam oafs  is self evident. Any idiot can pop up and say sack the board but using that approach will result in a new CEO every other week. That’s the main reason for Hearts being run by serious business individuals and not Johnny come lately JKB posters .

[Harry Potter]

4 hours ago, The Fonz said:

I meant specifically on the park, so I wouldn't compare to liquidated or administration teams. 

 

For my money, Hearts in the championship is far worse than Sunderland or Hull in League One. We're the third biggest team in the country and you've got Livi, Hamilton, Ross County and St Mirren in the league above us. 

We are down there by lack of leadership of our football body so not true relegation, so lets roll up the sleeves and get out quick, not easy but we should manage it.

[The Fonz]

4 minutes ago, OldGorgie said:

The difference between successful business People and bar roam oafs  is self evident. Any idiot can pop up and say sack the board but using that approach will result in a new CEO every other week. That’s the main reason for Hearts being run by serious business individuals and not Johnny come lately JKB posters .

We should be sure to remember their astounding business savvy when we're playing away at Arbroath and Raith Rovers this season.... 

 

[OldGorgie]

Just now, The Fonz said:

We should be sure to remember their astounding business savvy when we're playing away at Arbroath and Raith Rovers this season.... 

 

As I said we have been there before. This nonsense about us being the third biggest club in Scotland has clearly got to a few of the younger posters. That was only true in the 50’s and 60’s. I notice the biggest critics of AB were quiet when we went into administration. Did they come forward to save the club? No but they put their tenners into FOH and that therefore gives them the right to say sack AB.

[The Fonz]

4 minutes ago, OldGorgie said:

As I said we have been there before. This nonsense about us being the third biggest club in Scotland has clearly got to a few of the younger posters. That was only true in the 50’s and 60’s. I notice the biggest critics of AB were quiet when we went into administration. Did they come forward to save the club? No but they put their tenners into FOH and that therefore gives them the right to say sack AB.

Are we not the third biggest club in Scotland? Our fan base would suggest so and budget wise we're top 4 at least.

 

It seems like you're trying to suggest relegation isn't that bad. It is, particularly when you consider the finances at the club. Teams like Livi and Hamilton are performing at a level above us with a tiny fraction of our finances. 

 

Everyone is grateful that Budge put up the money during admin. But she'll have been paid back with interest when she walks away. It doesn't put her above scrutiny forever. If we get relegated again this season do we start to be critical of her? What about into League 2 the following season?

 

 

[OldGorgie]

7 minutes ago, The Fonz said:

Are we not the third biggest club in Scotland? Our fan base would suggest so and budget wise we're top 4 at least.

 

It seems like you're trying to suggest relegation isn't that bad. It is, particularly when you consider the finances at the club. Teams like Livi and Hamilton are performing at a level above us with a tiny fraction of our finances. 

 

Everyone is grateful that Budge put up the money during admin. But she'll have been paid back with interest when she walks away. It doesn't put her above scrutiny forever. If we get relegated again this season do we start to be critical of her? What about into League 2 the following season?

 

 

As I hinted before those who think we are the third biggest club are fantasy merchants and not backed by facts. I love the club but I notice most of the critics of AB have never run a business or are simply misguided.