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Nucky Thompson
12 minutes ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

When you get this it just endorses the shambles that the hospitality has been treated.

A lot of them will be fecked after this.

Furlough money only covers wages, they still have a lot more overheads

 

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Just now, Nucky Thompson said:

A lot of them will be fecked after this.

Furlough money only covers wages, they still have a lot more overheads

 

 

Exactly.  Saw an interview with a hairdresser in Glasgow on TV and he said that he was having to cover rent out of his own pocket when no income is coming in.

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Nucky Thompson

The UK figures as a whole seem to be getting better.

18,662 new positive cases with 395,436 tests that reported results

People in hospital and ICU dropping a wee bit over the last week

Deaths still a wee bit high at 398, but 141 were added from a previous day

 

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The Real Maroonblood
5 minutes ago, Nucky Thompson said:

A lot of them will be fecked after this.

Furlough money only covers wages, they still have a lot more overheads

 

Exactly. 

My local pays about £2,000 a month for Sky and BT. Not sure it they can get that suspended and also the rates.

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coconut doug
27 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Yes, exactly that.  Remember its the Scottish Government we are talking about who don't care about the economy or following the data.

 

And yet you think Midlothian will "miss out". Why would they do that if they are not following the data?

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coconut doug
9 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Exactly.  Saw an interview with a hairdresser in Glasgow on TV and he said that he was having to cover rent out of his own pocket when no income is coming in.

 

Is there no support for businesses then? Who's to blame for that?

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Nucky Thompson

There's talk that England are going to scrap the 10pm curfew on hospitality when they open on the 2nd December.

 

Will they do the same up here? I highly doubt it, we'll still be selling pop till 6pm

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12 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

 

Is there no support for businesses then? Who's to blame for that?

 

Whoever closes them without adequate compensation.

Edited by frankblack
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16 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

 

And yet you think Midlothian will "miss out". Why would they do that if they are not following the data?

 

Look at Edinburgh City.

 

To quote The Eagles - you can check out any time but you can never leave (T3).

Edited by frankblack
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Nucky Thompson
6 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

 

Is there no support for businesses then? Who's to blame for that?

It's the stupid rules on hospitality that Sturgeon and her cronies have introduced.

They are still allowed to open, but only to sell soft drinks till 6pm.

 

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20 minutes ago, Nucky Thompson said:

There's talk that England are going to scrap the 10pm curfew on hospitality when they open on the 2nd December.

 

Will they do the same up here? I highly doubt it, we'll still be selling pop till 6pm

The talk is sales will need to stop at 10 but diners and pub goers will have an hour to finish their drinks/meals. While to great at least it will stop the dumping of everyone on the street at the same time

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23 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

 

Is there no support for businesses then? Who's to blame for that?

Why don’t you tell us. 

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25 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

 

Is there no support for businesses then? Who's to blame for that?

 

As I said, that will the the Scottish Government as they are closing them.

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1 minute ago, coconut doug said:

 

Government gives 80% of wages and/or profits to self employed does it not?

 

 

I’m a director of a ltd company. What support has my company had in lockdown 2. 

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coconut doug
Just now, frankblack said:

 

As I said, that will the the Scottish Government as they are closing them.

 

Closing businesses where exactly? Are businesses open everywhere else? Those who are forced to close are compensated often getting 80% of normal earnings for doing absolutely nothing. A situation that seems to irk many when it is given to workers but somehow is not enough for businesses. There's a pandemic on and things are not perfect. We all have to make sacrifices.

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coconut doug
1 minute ago, GinRummy said:

 

 

I’m a director of a ltd company. What support has my company had in lockdown 2. 

 

Why don't you tell us? 

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coconut doug
6 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

Said someone who know **** all about running a business 

 

You don't know anything about me and my work experience. 

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Just now, coconut doug said:

 

Why don't you tell us? 

You already have. 80% of staff wages. Since March 30k of cash reserves have been swallowed up, 50k bounce back loan spent and owe hmrc about 45k. What prospects do you think businesses have going into the coming recession with 10’s if not 100s of thousands of pounds worth of debt as a starting point? What do you think is going to happen to all those folk currently getting 80% of their wage after the free money stops? The government is not doing enough to support SME’s who have been forced to close and is doing practically nothing for companies who are still open but are operating at huge losses directly caused by the pandemic. Yes they are supporting employees but that is nowhere near enough. 

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coconut doug
24 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Look at Edinburgh City.

 

To quote The Eagles - you can check out any time but you can never leave (T3).

 

Where was Edinburgh in relation to Midlothian when the decision was made? It has already been explained to you why Edinburgh is an exceptional case. 

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3 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

 

You don't know anything about me and my work experience. 

It’s blatantly obvious by your posts you don’t know the first thing about running a business. 

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6 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

 

Closing businesses where exactly? Are businesses open everywhere else? Those who are forced to close are compensated often getting 80% of normal earnings for doing absolutely nothing. A situation that seems to irk many when it is given to workers but somehow is not enough for businesses. There's a pandemic on and things are not perfect. We all have to make sacrifices.

 

Doug, normally I respect your answers even if I disagree but you are miles off on this one.

 

Paying furlough to retain employees won't generate income to pay the overheads every business has - rent, utilities, and many others.

 

The fact those businesses are losing money is because the Scottish Government has closed them.

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Carl Fredrickson
1 hour ago, redjambo said:

The latest 7-day infection rates per council. Midlothian and East Lothian tier 2 designations expected on Tuesday.

 

Council Area Tier 7-day per-100,000 cases
    Today Yesterday Change
Renfrewshire 4 250 260 -10
North Lanarkshire 4 228 235 -7
South Lanarkshire 4 228 233 -5
Glasgow City 4 218 235 -17
East Renfrewshire 4 191 195 -4
West Lothian 4 183 193 -10
Stirling 4 178 210 -32
Clackmannanshire 3 150 165 -15
East Dunbartonshire 4 143 161 -18
East Ayrshire 4 141 152 -11
West Dunbartonshire 4 141 142 -1
South Ayrshire 4 126 153 -27
North Ayrshire 3 123 124 -1
Perth and Kinross 3 115 116 -1
Fife 3 109 116 -7
Dundee City 3 108 102 6
Midlothian 2 97 101 -4
Edinburgh City 3 89 84 5
Inverclyde 3 89 99 -10
Angus 3 82 88 -6
Falkirk 3 81 85 -4
Scottish Borders 2 65 74 -9
Aberdeenshire 2 64 64 0
East Lothian 2 57 48 9
Aberdeen City 2 52 51 1
Dumfries and Galloway 2 33 34 -1
Argyll and Bute 2 31 31 0
Moray 1 20 25 -5
Highland 1 17 19 -2
Shetland Islands 1 13 13 0
Orkney Islands 1 4 4 0
Na h-Eileanan Siar 1 0 0 0

 

Thanks for posting these updates, I appreciate them as they are very clear and easy to understand :thumbs_up:

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2 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

 

Where was Edinburgh in relation to Midlothian when the decision was made? It has already been explained to you why Edinburgh is an exceptional case. 

 

Excuse me if I missed it, but please explain how Edinburgh can be an exceptional case different from say Fife or the Borders?

 

What criteria exactly is it that Edinburgh has to meet to get out of this "two week circuit breaker" from the Scottish Government?

 

This is exactly why the Scottish Government has far too much power and is meddling in decision making that should be driven by one criteria only - the science without political disgression.

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5 minutes ago, Carl Fredrickson said:

 

Thanks for posting these updates, I appreciate them as they are very clear and easy to understand :thumbs_up:

 

My pleasure, Carl. :thumb: Funny you say that though, because I'm thinking of making it slightly more complex as of tomorrow by including an extra column showing how much the figures have changed since 21 November, the first full day of the Tier 4s, so that we can possibly see if the placing of some council areas in that tier makes a difference, for example when compared against those areas which remained in Tier 3. If it makes it too complex though, I'll remove it.

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Whilst there is sympathy for many who does deserve support and to what level ?

 

Who is going to pay for it ?....are you willing to pay more in tax for the next few years ?

 

Hospitality is just one industry and we have seen far more losses in retail for example.....I did not notice the outcry for them

 

Many companies are in my opinion taking advantage of the pandemic to make large cuts and changes to their workforce with little outcry....the results of which will not be seen for a while

 

In Scotland we are being led by someone trying their best but whose manner is becoming more and more autocratic with her failure to go into detail and her failure to discuss and explain leaving many angry and frustrated with little logic to decisions made...remember it was all about the science and now other factors are taken onto account and those are not black and white and full of discrepancies when scrutinised in detail.

Our FM knows this so she avoids talking about it or just ignores the impact of her decisions and for a while we went along with it but no more it seems and rightly some are starting to ask for details and why her opinion is one we should follow and better than our opinion.

 

Her failures are being laid bare as time moves on and far from being seen as strong she is now being seen as stubborn

 

She needs to use this lockdown to review and plan for the future, thinking hard about her attitude and approach to what is to come.

Of course we are part of the bigger UK picture and funding for much of what is required is not in Scotland's hands such as the furlough scheme....sometimes we forget this as well.....its not all controlled by the Scottish government

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1 hour ago, frankblack said:

 

I think Midlothian are going to miss out.

 

I'm not so sure. There are other indicators and factors involved and it would also be a tough call to make. They may announce that it will go into Tier 2 as planned but that they'll review the situation after a week. Usually when a decision has been made or is going to possibly be made, there's some sort of advanced warning leaked that it is going to (possibly) happen, and I personally haven't seen any such leak about Midlothian possibly not going into Tier 2. In addition to that, the daily case rate in Midlothian has dropped over the last few days - there were only 5 infections reported today. In other words, I have no idea what they're going to do.

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13 minutes ago, CJGJ said:

Whilst there is sympathy for many who does deserve support and to what level ?

 

Who is going to pay for it ?....are you willing to pay more in tax for the next few years ?

 

Hospitality is just one industry and we have seen far more losses in retail for example.....I did not notice the outcry for them

 

Many companies are in my opinion taking advantage of the pandemic to make large cuts and changes to their workforce with little outcry....the results of which will not be seen for a while

 

In Scotland we are being led by someone trying their best but whose manner is becoming more and more autocratic with her failure to go into detail and her failure to discuss and explain leaving many angry and frustrated with little logic to decisions made...remember it was all about the science and now other factors are taken onto account and those are not black and white and full of discrepancies when scrutinised in detail.

Our FM knows this so she avoids talking about it or just ignores the impact of her decisions and for a while we went along with it but no more it seems and rightly some are starting to ask for details and why her opinion is one we should follow and better than our opinion.

 

Her failures are being laid bare as time moves on and far from being seen as strong she is now being seen as stubborn

 

She needs to use this lockdown to review and plan for the future, thinking hard about her attitude and approach to what is to come.

Of course we are part of the bigger UK picture and funding for much of what is required is not in Scotland's hands such as the furlough scheme....sometimes we forget this as well.....its not all controlled by the Scottish government

Fair and balanced post. 
 

I would add that this isn’t just a problem for business but a problem for everyone. I agree big corporations and large private ltd companies will take advantage of the situation but there are a million SMEs who have employees and are ltd companies. Many of them just won’t be trading when the free cash stops. It’s anyone’s guess how that will affect the economy but it won’t be good and could be catastrophic.  

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Carl Fredrickson
34 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

My pleasure, Carl. :thumb: Funny you say that though, because I'm thinking of making it slightly more complex as of tomorrow by including an extra column showing how much the figures have changed since 21 November, the first full day of the Tier 4s, so that we can possibly see if the placing of some council areas in that tier makes a difference, for example when compared against those areas which remained in Tier 3. If it makes it too complex though, I'll remove it.

 

That sounds great. My issue is that too many outlets providing a lot of stats with no local detail. I live in Midlothian so your posts are of interest to me. Thanks again

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coconut doug
51 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Doug, normally I respect your answers even if I disagree but you are miles off on this one.

 

Paying furlough to retain employees won't generate income to pay the overheads every business has - rent, utilities, and many others.

 

The fact those businesses are losing money is because the Scottish Government has closed them.

 

 

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1 hour ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

When you get this it just endorses the shambles that the hospitality has been treated.

The SG targeted hospitality as it fits with their narrative of 'drinkers = scum'. Sturgeon herself admitted that she saw CV19 as a chance to alter society, and appears hell-bent on imposing lifestyle demands on the people of Scotland.

 

While I don't disagree that some people in this country could do with a kick up the arse, health and attitude wise, it's pretty low for her and her party to be doing this under the guise of fighting a deadly virus.

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5 hours ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

There's a photo papers this morning of Princes Street showing it as busy with description of heaving. Find it hard to believe it was taken on Saturday. 

I walked to Prices street yesterday, got there about 10.30 and left about 2pm. Prince's Street was empty, shops were quiet and barely anyone walking about. The wife and I were only people in Pakora bar where we had lunch. 

All I can think us media desperate to portray issues where none exist. 

Was in the centre of town today, was like a ghost town considering Christmas on the horizon

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coconut doug
52 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Doug, normally I respect your answers even if I disagree but you are miles off on this one.

 

Paying furlough to retain employees won't generate income to pay the overheads every business has - rent, utilities, and many others.

 

The fact those businesses are losing money is because the Scottish Government has closed them.

 

The Scottish gov and every other gov has closed businesses and of course there are still some overheads but opening them up kills people. Imo compensation is more that generous and if some businesses fold so be it. Some people will lose their jobs too. Some of these hospitality businesses were reaching the non viable stage anyway and patronage will be down right across the sector as well because many people do not want to risk catching the virus by doing something as frivolous as hanging around in a pub or restaurant. Getting the virus under control and reducing it substantially  is good for business. 

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1 minute ago, coconut doug said:

 

The Scottish gov and every other gov has closed businesses and of course there are still some overheads 1/but opening them up kills people. Imo compensation is more that generous and 2/if some businesses fold so be it. Some people will lose their jobs too. Some of these hospitality businesses were reaching the non viable stage anyway and patronage will be down right across the sector as well because many people do not want to risk catching the virus by 3/doing something as frivolous as hanging around in a pub or restaurant. Getting the virus under control and reducing it substantially  is good for business. 

You're on the wind up, Douglas.

 

1/ Little, if any, evidence to support this.

2/ Yeah, who needs an economy anyway?

3/ The backbone of communities and people's social lives. The fact that you describe a normal social life as frivolous has shown you up for either a) being a troll or b) a bit of a loser.

 

 

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coconut doug
57 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Excuse me if I missed it, but please explain how Edinburgh can be an exceptional case different from say Fife or the Borders?

 

What criteria exactly is it that Edinburgh has to meet to get out of this "two week circuit breaker" from the Scottish Government?

 

This is exactly why the Scottish Government has far too much power and is meddling in decision making that should be driven by one criteria only - the science without political disgression.

 

Edinburgh was higher than Midlothian when the decision was made. It was explained by the FM at the time that as people traveled from more places in higher numbers to Edinburgh than anywhere else relaxing the restrictions in Edinburgh would be much more likely to increase infections than doing the same in Penicuik or Tranent. Presumably there is data to support that view and the potential for increasing infection is a determining factor when deciding which tier places should be in.

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5 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

 

The Scottish gov and every other gov has closed businesses and of course there are still some overheads but opening them up kills people. Imo compensation is more that generous and if some businesses fold so be it. Some people will lose their jobs too. Some of these hospitality businesses were reaching the non viable stage anyway and patronage will be down right across the sector as well because many people do not want to risk catching the virus by doing something as frivolous as hanging around in a pub or restaurant. Getting the virus under control and reducing it substantially  is good for business. 

You still completely avoid the issue. There is NO COMPENSATION TO LIMITED COMPANIES only money which must be given directly to employees. Please explain how £0.00 is more than generous. 

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10 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

 

The Scottish gov and every other gov has closed businesses and of course there are still some overheads but opening them up kills people. Imo compensation is more that generous and if some businesses fold so be it. Some people will lose their jobs too. Some of these hospitality businesses were reaching the non viable stage anyway and patronage will be down right across the sector as well because many people do not want to risk catching the virus by doing something as frivolous as hanging around in a pub or restaurant. Getting the virus under control and reducing it substantially  is good for business. 

I’ll assume your sitting pretty employment wise to be coming out with statements like this. 

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20 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

 

The Scottish gov and every other gov has closed businesses and of course there are still some overheads but opening them up kills people. Imo compensation is more that generous and if some businesses fold so be it. Some people will lose their jobs too. Some of these hospitality businesses were reaching the non viable stage anyway and patronage will be down right across the sector as well because many people do not want to risk catching the virus by doing something as frivolous as hanging around in a pub or restaurant. Getting the virus under control and reducing it substantially  is good for business. 

 

I can't agree with anything you have posted above.  I'm not just talking about hospitality here - I'm referring to any SME, which can range from hospitality to retail.

 

Any business has massive overheads, and your attitude is completely lacking in understanding of basic economics.

 

Any economy relies on SMEs and larger employers to survive.

 

I don't accept your argument that these businesses were going to fail anyway, so just let them.  That just isn't true.

 

As for hospitality, that argument is nonsensical.  Sure a lot of businesses had to make adjustments during the pandemic, notably installing costly measures such as track and trace stations, hand sanitisers, setting up one way systems, and reducing their capacity to facilitate social distancing between tables.  These businesses did this in the belief that the Scottish Government would notice how well run and compliant they were.  Instead they got shafted royally by the Scottish Government who won't provide the data to justify hammering them a second time.  To make matters worse they were promised they would only be shutting for their two week circuit breaker during the school holiday, and that was a blatant lie.

 

The Scottish Government are all over the place, misleading the public and business and I'm stunned by your attempts to defend them here.

 

What we are seeing now are a complete loss of control from the SG and closing hospitality backfiring as I have witnessed by my own eyes with the Take Away Pints scheme being operated outside pubs causing large gatherings of people without social distancing.

Edited by frankblack
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10 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

 

Edinburgh was higher than Midlothian when the decision was made. It was explained by the FM at the time that as people traveled from more places in higher numbers to Edinburgh than anywhere else relaxing the restrictions in Edinburgh would be much more likely to increase infections than doing the same in Penicuik or Tranent. Presumably there is data to support that view and the potential for increasing infection is a determining factor when deciding which tier places should be in.

 

This again goes back to my argument about the lack of transparency in the Scottish Government's decision making where they reserve the right to political disgression to override what the data suggests.

 

If they were open and honest and could provide the breakdown of the data to justify their decisions I'd accept it.

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CavySlaveJambo
50 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

I'm not so sure. There are other indicators and factors involved and it would also be a tough call to make. They may announce that it will go into Tier 2 as planned but that they'll review the situation after a week. Usually when a decision has been made or is going to possibly be made, there's some sort of advanced warning leaked that it is going to (possibly) happen, and I personally haven't seen any such leak about Midlothian possibly not going into Tier 2. In addition to that, the daily case rate in Midlothian has dropped over the last few days - there were only 5 infections reported today. In other words, I have no idea what they're going to do.

Midlothian met the criteria for Tier 2 on Friday. And they do again today as far as we are aware. Yesterday was the only day they did not meet the published criteria that we know of (projected cases) so it may be that Tier 2 is still appropriate. 

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2 hours ago, theshed said:


So you’ve got a pub in Midlothian and have been busy getting things ready for the last week to open up to be told the day before sorry you can’t open anymore. 🙄

Exactly it’s cruel from this government 

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8 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

I can't agree with anything you have posted above.  I'm not just talking about hospitality here - I'm referring to any SME, which can range from hospitality to retail.

 


As well as hospitality and retail you have all the other businesses such as wholesalers, printers, office supplies, any business to business sales (outwith construction), takeaways who rely on the office crowd, food manufacturers who rely on hospitality, shopfitters, and many other industries taking huge hits.  I found out in 2008 that a hit ot the economy is like a massive house of cards. For instance, some businesses will be hanging in there during a recession only for a major customer to go bust and tip them over the edge. 

Edited by GinRummy
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1 minute ago, CavySlaveJambo said:

Midlothian met the criteria for Tier 2 on Friday. And they do again today as far as we are aware. Yesterday was the only day they did not meet the published criteria that we know of (projected cases) so it may be that Tier 2 is still appropriate. 

 

If you have a look at the 7-day stats for the council areas, you will see that the published criteria and the actual levels in each tier are divergent.

 

Check out the following chart, courtesy of Travelling Tabby, with regards to the shaded areas (the published criteria) contrasted against the values in each tier. In almost every case, the councils have been placed, for that indicator anyway, in a higher tier than they should be.

 

EnIhn1bXUAYccV5.thumb.png.4ae06cd3b0b3177ef719f1c8c2e1111d.png

 

 

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Just now, GinRummy said:


As well as hospitality and retail you have all the other businesses such as wholesalers, printers, office supplies, any business to business sales (outwith construction), takeaways who rely on the office crowd, food manufacturers who rely on hospitality, shopfitters, and many other industries taking huge hits.  I found out in 2008 that a hit ot the economy is like a massive house of cards. For instance, some businesses will be hanging in their during a recession only for a major customer to go bust and tip them over the edge. 

 

Agreed.

 

I work in financial services, but everyone needs small businesses be it hospitality, hairdressers, retail, etc.  I walked into a hairdresser last week and only one member of staff was working due to the loss of trade with people working at home.

 

I can't pretend to know all the overheads businesses have to keep afloat.

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coconut doug
1 hour ago, GinRummy said:

It’s blatantly obvious by your posts you don’t know the first thing about running a business. 

 

1 hour ago, GinRummy said:

You already have. 80% of staff wages. Since March 30k of cash reserves have been swallowed up, 50k bounce back loan spent and owe hmrc about 45k. What prospects do you think businesses have going into the coming recession with 10’s if not 100s of thousands of pounds worth of debt as a starting point? What do you think is going to happen to all those folk currently getting 80% of their wage after the free money stops? The government is not doing enough to support SME’s who have been forced to close and is doing practically nothing for companies who are still open but are operating at huge losses directly caused by the pandemic. Yes they are supporting employees but that is nowhere near enough. 

 

So you have spent £80K in reserves and loan. Has this gone entirely on overheads? I'm surprised you have not received any actual cash from the gov as family member's business has received two five figure grants to assist with property costs, mainly rent i think. 

   If you owe 45k to HMRC i assume that is a historical debt and so you would have a bit of a cheek expecting the taxpayer to fork out for that. If it is not a historical debt then it has been calculated on profits which would be in excess of £200K. In that case you have nothing to complain about either. I also believe that there is a deferment on taxes in this situation for at least a year.

I think everybody knows times are tough for many people and businesses but what is the point of subsidising companies who are not viable anyway and isn't it illegal to continue to trade when you know you can't meet the bills? 

 

The government's approach has been wrong but it has been brought here in large part because it has pursued what it was told were the interests of business. We have the worst public health response and the worst economic response in Europe as a result.

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coconut doug
11 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

This again goes back to my argument about the lack of transparency in the Scottish Government's decision making where they reserve the right to political disgression to override what the data suggests.

 

If they were open and honest and could provide the breakdown of the data to justify their decisions I'd accept it.

 

They were open and honest. That's what they said. I'm not making it up.

 

Why would you want data to prove that Edinburgh has more traffic than anywhere else in Lothian? You don't need data for something as obvious as that.

 

They are our elected leaders and actually they do have the right to make political decisions on our behalf. We live in representative democracy and 74% of us think the SG is doing a good job.

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