Levein's first spell

[Locky]

Mods, if this spirals into yet another Levein debating thread please close it. Try and stay on topic please.

 

Cast your minds back to the summer of 2002 if you can. I was 8 and far too young to really appreciate the goings on at a football club other than who played for us and results. Even more so for things like Kickback.

 

I'm just curious, what was the feeling towards Levein that summer considering we'd finished 5th in his first 2 seasons in charge? Granted there were different circumstances at the time, but was there anywhere near as much animosity towards him?

 

Make of this thread what you will, I'm not posting it for Levein bashing or praising, I'm just genuinely curious as to what 5he consensus was like before things went right in his first spell.

[innerjambo]

I have never liked his brand of football, he has always made a priority of bringing in a big target man straight away. It's boring, he's boring, and everything is boring.

[kila]

He didn't have the funds/luxury to splash about signing a new squad every window. Maybe got more patience from some because of the difficulties off the park.

 

Football was slightly different back then too - the quality of the pitches, the type of ball (weight/materials) etc. Hoofing it up the park worked better back then.

 

 

Edited September 17, 2019 by kila

[Toonhertz]

only good thing be done then in first spell was bring in De vries 

[kingantti1874]

There was no animosity, we were very effective and notched up some decent wins, the old firm were a different beast at that time with a level of player far in excess of what they have today so there was little expectation that we would compete for titles.. we virtually never lost at Tynecastle.

 

The perception was he was going a good job given off field circumstances which were a disaster, Chris Robinson trying to sell the silver and constant cost cutting..

 

a lot of our fans were rightly pissed when he left for Leicester which they never forgave him for. The timing was terrible.

 

we have been far poorer, far more confused looking, far less motivated this time around.. honestly this team bears to resemblance that his first team. 

[Stephen Muddie]

Fans were at loggerheads frequently back then. Saw a few bust ups in the main stand between fans.

Levein has always divided opinion amongst our support - player, man and manager. The current situation has went way beyond anything in the past though and it's all the fault of the current Hearts board for not taking the opportunity for change in the summer. I saw this coming back then.  knew if we did not start well that the gloom would be tanglible.

[We_are_the_Hearts]

11 minutes ago, Toonhertz said:

only good thing be done then in first spell was bring in De vries 

To be fair he did bring in Hartley. His teams then while being boring at times were well organised, physical and hard to beat. We are none of them now. 

[Locky]

3 minutes ago, kingantti1874 said:

There was no animosity, we were very effective and notched up some decent wins, the old firm were a different beast at that time with a level of player far in excess of what they have today so there was little expectation that we would compete for titles.. we virtually never lost at Tynecastle.

 

The perception was he was going a good job given off field circumstances which were a disaster, Chris Robinson trying to sell the silver and constant cost cutting..

 

a lot of our fans were rightly pissed when he left for Leicester which they never forgave him for. The timing was terrible.

 

we have been far poorer, far more confused looking, far less motivated this time around.. honestly this team bears to resemblance that his first team. 

Your first paragraph is an interesting point. I think it's safe to say that in the last few years, the OF, particularly Rangers, haven't been the force they once were and perhaps the gulf had somewhat reduced. But sadly I think that little period is coming to an end.

 

Given the circumstances that fell on Hearts at the time of Rangers demise, it's a shame we were never really about to utilise it, but clubs like Hibs and Aberdeen must kick themselves that they never done more during that time. There might not be as great an opportunity for a club to establish themselves as a force for some time.

[Toonhertz]

2 minutes ago, We_are_the_Hearts said:

To be fair he did bring in Hartley. His teams then while being boring at times were well organised, physical and hard to beat. We are none of them now. 

How did I forget that! 

[Locky]

4 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

Things were a bit different.

 

A lot of people were not happy with the style, everyone back at corners used to drive some fans potty. He was definitely from you don’t concede can’t loose mould. 

 

However, he was different manager back then.

 

He was tactically aware and despite his style not being overly popular, we were always well organised. He seemed to pick up the odd gem of a player, which gave people a bit of confidence we could get team together.

 

He was definitely a function over style manager. 

 

He’d probably had more good will last time due to the backdrop of Robinson. 

 

 

I think that's what excited us most when he was reappointed back in August 2018. We were screaming for someone to steady the shape, and no 2 ways about it he did just that.

 

We were a lot more competent that season from the shitshow that was Cathro, and even at the time you felt he somewhat galvanised the support and Tynie became a fortress again. It's sad that it's never really kicked on or even maintained since.

[davemclaren]

15 minutes ago, Stephen Muddie said:

Fans were at loggerheads frequently back then. Saw a few bust ups in the main stand between fans.

Levein has always divided opinion amongst our support - player, man and manager. The current situation has went way beyond anything in the past though and it's all the fault of the current Hearts board for not taking the opportunity for change in the summer. I saw this coming back then.  knew if we did not start well that the gloom would be tanglible.

Not sure he divided much opinion as a player. 🤷🏼‍♂️

[Stephen Muddie]

Just now, davemclaren said:

Not sure he divided much opinion as a player. 🤷🏼‍♂️

So the '86 allegations just surfaced when he became a manager? I don't think his ABILITY was ever in question.

[davemclaren]

5 minutes ago, Stephen Muddie said:

So the '86 allegations just surfaced when he became a manager? I don't think his ABILITY was ever in question.

For me they surfaced when Gary Mackay aired them long after ‘86. 

[FruitJuice]

21 minutes ago, Stephen Muddie said:

Fans were at loggerheads frequently back then. Saw a few bust ups in the main stand between fans.

Levein has always divided opinion amongst our support - player, man and manager. The current situation has went way beyond anything in the past though and it's all the fault of the current Hearts board for not taking the opportunity for change in the summer. I saw this coming back then.  knew if we did not start well that the gloom would be tanglible.

I don't think the fans have ever been divided about him as a player.  His brand of football has always been an issue for some.  I suppose only people who have has dealings with him can argue about the man.  I can't remember anyone questioning him as a player.  His loyalty could be questioned by some due to the timing of him going to Leicester. 

[Smoked-Glass]

02-03 was a brilliant season. 

 

 

[tokyowalnut]

38 minutes ago, Toonhertz said:

only good thing be done then in first spell was bring in De vries 

The only good thing? Away and have a word with yourself. 

His first spell was almost bang on what we want; 3rd place finishes and good, actually great, results in Europe. I wish he could have lifted a trophy, but cups aside it was brilliant. We never lost at home. Ok, some of the football wasnt scintillating, but I'd take winning ugly over losing pretty every single week. 

[Pasquale for King]

1 hour ago, Locky said:

Mods, if this spirals into yet another Levein debating thread please close it. Try and stay on topic please.

 

Cast your minds back to the summer of 2002 if you can. I was 8 and far too young to really appreciate the goings on at a football club other than who played for us and results. Even more so for things like Kickback.

 

I'm just curious, what was the feeling towards Levein that summer considering we'd finished 5th in his first 2 seasons in charge? Granted there were different circumstances at the time, but was there anywhere near as much animosity towards him?

 

Make of this thread what you will, I'm not posting it for Levein bashing or praising, I'm just genuinely curious as to what 5he consensus was like before things went right in his first spell.

He did a fantastic job, his tactics worked better back then though. He brought in some great players and used to be able to make great substitutions too. He had Tom Ritchie getting the players ready to start the game at full pelt which put other teams on the back foot. Midfielders had to work hard for 90 minutes, he played central midfielders wide a lot and we were hard to beat. A lot of that has changed, clearly, the good parts shouldn’t have though. The brilliant victories in Bordeaux and Braga. I didn’t realise he hadn’t beaten Rangers at Tynecastle ever, they were a good team back then with EBTs etc. I was gutted when he left, a bit annoyed when he put a bid in for De Vries and Maybury on the morning of a derby at ER. I doubt if there will be any celebration when he goes this time, just relief that Ann has finally seen what some have been saying for a while and we can move onwards and upwards.

Edited September 17, 2019 by Pasquale for King

[tcjambo]

For all the stuff about being boring we scored more goals inder his management than most other managers.I don't remember Valois and Hartley being boring. All a bit of a myth stemming from his comments about needing to physically compete with the OF.

[Costanza]

Best ever league season for Derbies I've been to with the 5-1, 2-1 and 4-4. Away in Bordeaux was also great.

Overall it was a decent spell, cup runs aside.

Seems like a Nirvana to what is currently being served up. 

 

 

 

 

[sjh1874]

Remember after a particularly eye bleeding draw at Dunfermline he declared on the radio that many teams would be happy with a point at East End park.

 

There he is in a nutshell. The style of football was shocking.

[scott herbertson]

On the plus side our home form was impeccable - you really felt we were in Fortress Tynecastle. Also our European forays were mostly excellent. we also had great wins against Hibs - compare that to now and you can see why the feelgood factor even for people like me who have supported him most of the time, has been dissipating fast.

 

There were negatives back then - when we got ahead he was keen on shutting up shop mostly, a negative, if percentage-wise sensible - trait which seems to have intensified this time round. His away record was poor,perhaps due to a related lack of ambition

 

And I must add in memory of my brother, who was driven to near apoplexy at times with it, that he would pull Everybody, and I mean everybody, back at corners - no out ball. percentages again, but deadly dull. 

 

You can see the second spell as simply an intensification of the negative, safety first  aspects of the first, with some bad luck with injuries added to the mix.

[Boris]

We handed out a few spankings to the likes of Aberdeen and Dundee Utd iirc.

 

And we got our arses handed to us by the OF on numerous occasions.

 

But, we finished third two seasons running and that's the most consistent form I've ever witnessed in my time watching Hearts.  I didn't mind him first time round, and I thought we were ok.  

[3fingersreid]

A couple of mentions that he got things right tactically, not sure that was him ,I’d say it was Houston that was the tactical man in the partnership. 

[martoon]

I had no complaints. 

 

Steadied and improved the team and from 2002 we were fine. Only the old firm and Bordeaux beat us at Tynecastle in the following two years and we had back to back 3rd place finishes. The second of which in 2004 saw us gain 68 points. Just 5 short of what the big budget team of 2005/06 managed.

 

Some good results in Europe too. None more so than getting us into the UEFA (Europa) Cup group stages. The two legs v. Braga were magnificent. 

 

He also got us back in the derby driving seat after the horrors of 1999 and 2000. Who can forget 5-1, Stampy and Happy New Weir? 

 

All achieved whilst having his budget cut every year. 

 

Our domestic cup record was the only failing. All that was missing was a piece of silverware. If we had won a trophy between 2002-04, to go along with all of the above, we'd look back on CL's first stint as legendary. 

 

Often wondered how we would have fared with Craig at the helm in the early days of Romanov. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[gashauskis9]

If memory serves correctly, we were unbeaten at home outside of the OF for well over a year during 2002-2004 (think Motherwell beat us to end the run).  We just didn’t lose at home back then, period.

Edited September 17, 2019 by Gashauskis9

[jambonian]

He didn't sign so many players each window back then either. Can't remember all but he brought in Ricardo Fuller early in his tenure. We still had the base of the Jeffries squad at the time so didn't need to sign constantly. Steve Fulton said in his Si Ferry interview that things changed quickly once Levein came in. He did sign the likes of Patrick Kisnorbo, Andy Webster, Kevin McKenna, Mark de Vries, Jean-louis Valois and Phil Stamp so he knew a decent player, mostly. Also signed Paul Hartley and Dennis Witness and others coming back to me now as I type. The squad was settled but for some reason he just can't motivate players these days. Either that or the scouting is much poorer, players are wimps or training on plastic has taken it's toll. He always did like a big man upfront though so that's never changed.

[martoon]

1 hour ago, Gashauskis9 said:

If memory serves correctly, we were unbeaten at home outside of the OF for well over a year during 2002-2004 (think Motherwell beat us to end the run).  We just didn’t lose at home back then, period.

 

It was Motherwell and after Craig had gone. Haven't checked but I think we lost at home to Dundee early in the 2002/03 season and that was that. Only Celtic, Rangers and Bordeaux won in Gorgie until he left two years later. 

 

We did very well against "the rest" away from home, too. Rarely lost to them in that two years. 

 

What a difference now. 

[soonbe110]

4 hours ago, innerjambo said:

I have never liked his brand of football, he has always made a priority of bringing in a big target man straight away. It's boring, he's boring, and everything is boring.

MDV, Valois and Hartley boring?????

[soonbe110]

3 hours ago, scott herbertson said:

On the plus side our home form was impeccable - you really felt we were in Fortress Tynecastle. Also our European forays were mostly excellent. we also had great wins against Hibs - compare that to now and you can see why the feelgood factor even for people like me who have supported him most of the time, has been dissipating fast.

 

There were negatives back then - when we got ahead he was keen on shutting up shop mostly, a negative, if percentage-wise sensible - trait which seems to have intensified this time round. His away record was poor,perhaps due to a related lack of ambition

 

And I must add in memory of my brother, who was driven to near apoplexy at times with it, that he would pull Everybody, and I mean everybody, back at corners - no out ball. percentages again, but deadly dull. 

 

You can see the second spell as simply an intensification of the negative, safety first  aspects of the first, with some bad luck with injuries added to the mix.

Good post and pretty accurate. I remember him saying once that he discounts OF games (any points gained were a bonus) and if we win home games against the rest and draw against them away from home we are guaranteed a European Place. Qualifying for Europe was his target every season. Made it most times. Similar stats today would also guarantee euro spot so wouldn’t surprise me if he still sees it that way. Just needs to deliver. 

[innerjambo]

3 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

MDV, Valois and Hartley 

 

I didn't say that I don't like his choice of players, I just don't like his style of football. MDV did very well for us, as a target man.

[Салатные палочки]

Think he was in charge when Motherwell pumped us 6-1 at Fir Park. 

[SectionDJambo]

I’m pretty sure he got us into Europe 2 years running through league position. Something I don’t think any other Hearts manager, other than probably Tommy Walker, has done.

He put Hibs back in their box. 

Whilst we had big victories, like 5-1 against Hibs and 7-1 against Dunfermline, but he still seemed overly cautious in big games.

Fairly good European record too, although some argued, at the time, that he was too cautious against Bordeaux at home, giving them the initiative. I think he was surprised we got the win away and thought Bordeaux would punish us if we attacked them.

He didn’t do himself any favours by going along with the plan to sell Tynecastle, but he maybe found it awkward to openly go against his boss.

What is forgotten about is his tremendous job done at Dundee United.

Edited September 17, 2019 by SectionDJambo

[soonbe110]

4 hours ago, davemclaren said:

For me they surfaced when Gary Mackay aired them long after ‘86. 

Exactly. 

[soonbe110]

19 minutes ago, innerjambo said:

 

I didn't say that I don't like his choice of players, I just don't like his style of football. MDV did very well for us, as a target man.

And the other two? 

[soonbe110]

11 minutes ago, SectionDJambo said:

I’m pretty sure he got us into Europe 2 years running through league position. Something I don’t think any other Hearts manager, other than probably Tommy Walker, has done.

He put Hibs back in their box. 

Whilst we had big victories, like 5-1 against Hibs and 7-1 against Dunfermline, but he still seemed overly cautious in big games.

Fairly good European record too, although some argued, at the time, that he was too cautious against Bordeaux at home, giving them the initiative. I think he was surprised we got the win away and thought Bordeaux would punish us if we attacked them.

He didn’t do himself any favours by going along with the plan to sell Tynecastle, but he maybe found it awkward to openly go against his boss.

What is forgotten about is his tremendous job done at Dundee United.

Yes, he did nothing of note at either Hearts or Dundee Utd. That’s why he was head-hunted for the Scotland job. 

[davemclaren]

Shame he couldn’t afford to keep Ricardo Fuller. What a player!!

[portobellojambo1]

5 hours ago, kingantti1874 said:

There was no animosity, we were very effective and notched up some decent wins, the old firm were a different beast at that time with a level of player far in excess of what they have today so there was little expectation that we would compete for titles.. we virtually never lost at Tynecastle.

 

The perception was he was going a good job given off field circumstances which were a disaster, Chris Robinson trying to sell the silver and constant cost cutting..

 

a lot of our fans were rightly pissed when he left for Leicester which they never forgave him for. The timing was terrible.

 

we have been far poorer, far more confused looking, far less motivated this time around.. honestly this team bears to resemblance that his first team. 

 

I didn't mind his football the first time round in all honesty. In the first couple of years it worked for us, as teams didn't play particularly well against it, and there was some stability built in as well. When he left us in 2004 his style of play was beginning to become outdated and predictable. In the intervening 15 years the game has moved on quite dramatically, but he continues to use the same style of play and it just don't work now. And I feel that at this atge in his career he either can't ow won't change how he wants the tema ot play and it is the players who are suffering as a result.

[Guest ToqueJambo]

It was a different world in two major ways. 1 - There was no internet or social media as we now know it so people couldn't whip up themselves and others into a frenzy over every tiny thing that didn't happen exactly as they wanted it. If you were really pissed off with the team, you moaned to your mates and maybe didn't go the next week, but no-one knew what you were thinking beyond your friends unless you called up a radio phone in or something.

 

2. The OF were so far ahead of everyone that the Herald started running an alternative league table with results vs the OF not counting. We won the alternative league twice in a row under Levein. Under him we established ourselves by a long way as the 3rd force in Scottish football, for what it was worth (not much). The European results under hm were the cherry on the cake but he did leave at a bad time with a promising Euro campaign underway. I assumed it was because of Romanov at the time.

 

In terms of Levein's style or performance I don't remember being especially pissed off or worried at finishing 5th two years in a row in his first two seasons. There was recognition that he was a fairly young manager and we often finished 5th anyhow but always knew we'd do better. JJ did that as well I thin, and Doddie. That might be why some like me game him time after two 5ths/6ths this time around.

 

Once things got going in his two 3rd place finish seasons there was some frustration at his approach to the OF away from home in particular. But there was a growing resignation though that 3rd was the best we could ever get because of how far ahead the OF were. And a lot of people including me got a bit fed up with Scottish football in general as it sunk in that this was going to be a 2 horse race forever. 

 

That's why Romanov coming in was so exciting at first. All of a sudden there was a chance another team could compete. Even fans of other clubs were a bit excited at that even if they didn't really want us to win the league.

Edited September 17, 2019 by ToqueJambo

[Pans Jambo]

1 hour ago, soonbe110 said:

MDV, Valois and Hartley boring?????

Phil Stamp & Fuller as well. 

 

I was pissed off that he left for Leicester!

 

Now I’m pissed off that he wont leave!

(sorry locky). 

Edited September 17, 2019 by Pans Jambo

[Stephen Muddie]

5 hours ago, davemclaren said:

For me they surfaced when Gary Mackay aired them long after ‘86. 

That's what I meant, was being a lazy typist. Should've left "player" out and let "man" and "manager" remain. (my 2nd season following the club was also Levein's last as a player, 94 or 5 I think) In fairness to the rest of the old ground I used to have a ST in N lower, thus extreme disagreements weren't uncommon generally between supporters there. 

Point was generally he's a Marmite character who can divide people. I see both sides so I have just kinda respected him whilst being sceptical of certain traits of his over the years *COOLFACE SMILEY* (lol)

Edited September 17, 2019 by Stephen Muddie

[Stephen Muddie]

1 hour ago, soonbe110 said:

Exactly. 

That's what I meant but didn't articulate properly. I meant that some revised their opinion of him/his integrity as a player after GM. Don't think his ability as a classy defender who could pass and shoot were ever really in doubt, sorry for not being clearer (or for not omitting "player".)

Forgot to add that I was never a basher of his back then. Going the football for me from 2002 to probably 2007 was the best times I remember, in no small part to the spine and foundations CL put in place during his time. Always felt that it was a shame he bolted before seeing the best of Hartley, Pressley, Gordon hell even Robbie Neilson. He brought Andy Webster from Arbroath too come to think of it. 4/5 were key players in 05/06, actually Robbie too just for THAT tackle and the goal in Switzerland. The European games were awesome. Hard to imagine these things happening now. (Braga, Bordeaux, even Basle was basically his team too)

Edited September 17, 2019 by Stephen Muddie

[glynnlondon]

No complaints first time round as others have said different game then but some decent signings and cutting the budget every year with the shadow of the arse end of the pieman and SOH.

Yeah I liked him , quite a bit really in all honesty.

[DH1986]

Overall I enjoyed his first spell. It wasn’t perfect but that’s nothing new for us.

 

[Debut 4]

We’ve not always had the 15,16,000 crowds we get regularly now. Then, a good crowd v Motherwell or Dundee would be 12,000 and your usual full house (or close to) for the derbies or old firm 

 

Surprisingly though ,for a relatively decent spell, out crowds dropped a little under Levein back then. I could be wrong, I’m digging from memory. 

 

Good times though. Being consistently strong in the league is what Hearts should be about.

 

I also thought the team with Valois and De Vries was also good to watch. 

 

[fabienleclerq]

My memory is of him doing well, the team was effective and not many losses at Tynecastle. He had to cost cut constantly and gave us as good as I remember in Europe. 

[soonbe110]

1 hour ago, Stephen Muddie said:

That's what I meant but didn't articulate properly. I meant that some revised their opinion of him/his integrity as a player after GM. Don't think his ability as a classy defender who could pass and shoot were ever really in doubt, sorry for not being clearer (or for not omitting "player".)

Forgot to add that I was never a basher of his back then. Going the football for me from 2002 to probably 2007 was the best times I remember, in no small part to the spine and foundations CL put in place during his time. Always felt that it was a shame he bolted before seeing the best of Hartley, Pressley, Gordon hell even Robbie Neilson. He brought Andy Webster from Arbroath too come to think of it. 4/5 were key players in 05/06, actually Robbie too just for THAT tackle and the goal in Switzerland. The European games were awesome. Hard to imagine these things happening now. (Braga, Bordeaux, even Basle was basically his team too)

Agreed. Also very hard to believe Mackay’s claim that he bottled it at Dens. There were some really tough guys in that squad and Levein was possibly the toughest in terms of mental strength so I don’t buy the Mackay story at all. 

[Tokyo Drifter]

We were boring as hell to watch - sound familiar? - but we did well enough in terms of qualifying for Europe etc. for the criticism of Levein to be muted. I don't remember too much grumbling in the stands. And remember Leicester poached him because he was judged to have been a success at Hearts. Hard to see him replacing Brenda at the King Power any time soon. 

 

I've been watching Hearts since the early 1990s and the best we've ever been in terms of attacking and having a go was always under JJ. 

[Stephen Muddie]

51 minutes ago, Debut 4 said:

We’ve not always had the 15,16,000 crowds we get regularly now. Then, a good crowd v Motherwell or Dundee would be 12,000 and your usual full house (or close to) for the derbies or old firm 

 

Surprisingly though ,for a relatively decent spell, out crowds dropped a little under Levein back then. I could be wrong, I’m digging from memory. 

 

Good times though. Being consistently strong in the league is what Hearts should be about.

 

I also thought the team with Valois and De Vries was also good to watch. 

 

Yes, quite correct. I remember Livingston at home had about 10,500 there in 04-05. The game was a total borefest. 0-0 it ended. Crowds dropped in these years mostly because of Pieman IMO. A few CL bashers focussed on the "boring football/tactics" but not any significant number to affect crowds in my opinion. 

05-06 we started selling out very soon into the season. That situation remained for a few seasons and IMO led to our current averages. I fear it could easily go back the other way again unless we get a degree of success - might say expected level of achievment - tout de suite.

[Fraggle]

6 hours ago, FruitJuice said:

His loyalty could be questioned by some due to the timing of him going to Leicester. 

As could his morals!  The move to Leicester wasn't all about career.

[Stephen Muddie]

2 hours ago, davemclaren said:

Shame he couldn’t afford to keep Ricardo Fuller. What a player!!

A million quid! Wonder what he'd be worth now in his pomp? 50? 100?

Yet a few Hearts supporters still think getting less than a year 2000 Gary Naysmith fee (1.7M) for currrent top prospects would be "good business". Don't think they'd sell their house at 2000 prices somehow... Sorry to derail topic slightly, just a follow on thought about transfer inflation. You might argue our game has deflated since then with the English game entering hyper-inflation...