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The Frenchman Returns

Council reveals £314m overhaul of Edinburgh centre

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Jamboross

I've never understood all the moaning about the city being 'geared towards tourists'. Tacky souvenir shops and that, sure, they harm the city but generally why are things that are deemed as being "for tourists" not viewed as being good for locals too? Making more attractive public spaces and cutting down on traffic of course makes the city appealing to visitors but cleaner air and nice squares/streets are also there to be enjoyed by us Edinburgh folk. 

 

 

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Francis Albert
2 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

How will that be collected?

In one of a number of ways it is collected in the many cities that have a congestion charge or charge for entering the city centre.. In London it is based on number plate recognition cameras controlling the entrance to a central zone. Other places use a pass that has to be displayed on your windscreen. 

In a city with a relatively compact centre like Edinburgh within the centre of which everything is walkable it would be a simple and painless exercise particularly if combined with enhanced park and ride facilities.

Edited by Francis Albert

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FWJ
3 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

They are actively engineering slowdowns in the road to obstruct motorists while not running any frequent bus services on same roads.

 

Time for these clowns to ditch their vanity tram project and reverse the damage they have caused to the roads in the city.   Princes Street is gridlock at rush hour as buses have to give way to these monstrosities.

Princes Street was ‘gridlock’ at rush hour 40 years ago too.

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The Real Maroonblood
6 hours ago, skinnybob72 said:

While it’s a lovely idea to have all these pretty open spaces with trees and no traffic it seems to have been ignored that we live in a cold, wet and windy place most of the year. 

 

The council have already clogged the city up with the widening of pavements, replacing roundabouts with lights, bus lanes, etc. This is just an expensive extension to that. 

 

It’s all very well saying that folk with cars should use public transport but that is a rose tinted view. Public transport is slow, unreliable and relatively expensive. It takes me 30 mins to drive to work in the city (leaving at daft o’clock to avoid gridlock..) but it takes about 75 mins on public transport. I have zero intention of using public transport when it would add an extra 7.5hrs a week to my commute. 

Public transport is slow, unreliable and relatively expensive.

:cornette_dog:

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Section Q

Thought we were in debt to the banks for tram construction for the next thirty years. If council has that sort of money lying around then why not prioritise paying our debts first.

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Zlatanable
34 minutes ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

Public transport is slow, unreliable and relatively expensive.

:cornette_dog:

this dog face, is a funny dog face

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Jambo, Goodbye
7 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

How will that be collected?

In korea we drive through unmanned tollbooths that scan your license plate. Money automatically deducted. 

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Jambo, Goodbye
3 hours ago, Section Q said:

Thought we were in debt to the banks for tram construction for the next thirty years. If council has that sort of money lying around then why not prioritise paying our debts first.

"Officials say that the project could potentially generate £420m of "quantifiable benefits" based on £314.6m of investment."

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skinnybob72
7 hours ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

Public transport is slow, unreliable and relatively expensive.

:cornette_dog:

I stay in Gorebridge and the no 29 is timed to take 70 mins to get to Frederick St, I don’t think that’s very fast for 11 miles. The first thing they could do is get rid of 1 in every 3 bus stops - we don’t need them every 100 yards. 

 

The train is an option but it’s totally unreliable and almost £10 for a day return in peak times. 

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frankblack
7 hours ago, Section Q said:

Thought we were in debt to the banks for tram construction for the next thirty years. If council has that sort of money lying around then why not prioritise paying our debts first.

 

We can always use some of the money we are getting for streets around Waterloo Place being closed for filming.

 

Oh wait, we didn't charge for that.

 

:facepalm:

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ri Alban
16 hours ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

Or pishing with rain and blowing a gale like it is for a fair chunk of the time.

 

The picture wouldn't look so great with some lycra clad meanace being blown sidey-ways and wiping out an old wifie struggling against the monsoon with an inside-out brolly.

 

Reality doesn't sell.

Shit!!! It only rains in Scotland. I used to wonder why other places like New York, London and Paris never had rain in film. Now I know. Cheers 👍

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AlimOzturk

314 million turn into a  billion after co tractor screw council over

 

Recent history is not on the councils side

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The Real Maroonblood
50 minutes ago, skinnybob72 said:

I stay in Gorebridge and the no 29 is timed to take 70 mins to get to Frederick St, I don’t think that’s very fast for 11 miles. The first thing they could do is get rid of 1 in every 3 bus stops - we don’t need them every 100 yards. 

 

The train is an option but it’s totally unreliable and almost £10 for a day return in peak times. 

It should only take about 50 minutes so it's the congested traffic is the problem. 

£1.70 seems reasonable for a single fare.

I agree about the number of bus stops.

An email to them about this and ask them to explain.

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Governor Tarkin
29 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Shit!!! It only rains in Scotland. I used to wonder why other places like New York, London and Paris never had rain in film. Now I know. Cheers 👍

 

New York and Paris don't appear in Braveheart so I doubt you've seen them in film.

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ri Alban
Just now, Governor Tarkin said:

 

New York and Paris don't appear in Braveheart so I doubt you've seen them in film.

York did and it looked quite new.

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Section Q
5 hours ago, Jambo, Goodbye said:

"Officials say that the project could potentially generate £420m of "quantifiable benefits" based on £314.6m of investment."

Paying off the tram debts and avoiding additional interest would be a better idea methinks. Maybe the bed tax will help......!!

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Ma Roon

They build these cycle segregated lane's and cyclist still use the road's and pavements up and down Leith Walk 

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Seymour M Hersh
20 hours ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

100,000 increase in population over 20 years is the inconvenience. 

 

I'm not sure you are correct there. As long as I could remember our population was around the 480k mark now it's around the 500k mark. 

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Seymour M Hersh
20 hours ago, hughesie27 said:

Those pictures don't really suggest much change other than the bit outside Doctors?

 

There is never a car pictured in them so I think the subtext might be a total ban on cars in the city centre. 

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Seymour M Hersh
18 hours ago, FWJ said:

Motorways on stilts - it’s the way forward.

Who wants to live in a medieval city built centuries before motorised transport?

 

Or

 

 

th.jpeg

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vegas-voss

Don't worry you won't need the roads soon.

 

 

images (2).jpeg

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indianajones

I dont live in Edinburgh anymore but often come down. 

 

Its a nightmare to drive around town these days. Almost a waste of time. Much better with public transport which Edinburgh is extremely lucky to have one of if not the best in the UK.

 

Plans look good to me. 

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All roads lead to Gorgie
18 hours ago, FWJ said:

Sorry to be a smarmy pedant about this - but it’s St Andrew Sq.  

It’s up there with “Princess Street”

 

Sorry....

:phface: I know that as well but I must have just typed it as it sounded in my head . It is the s in the Square right after the w that throws eejits like me sometimes. I am still guilty of posting too quickly before checking for glaring errors like that though. :biggrin:

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Cade

The city centre infrastructure cannot physically be expanded to accommodate more traffic, but the greater Edinburgh metropolitan area continues to expand.

It makes perfect sense to restrict traffic in the very heart of the city centre but it must be done with joined-up thinking and a view to future-proofing it.

 

I don't trust ECC to handle it the right way.

 

There are several pinch points in the city centre that need serious attention (top of Leith St, Shandwick Place, Waverly Steps, Hunter Square junction to name but a few). 

 

Traffic calming, pedestrian priority and public transport corridors have all been kind of half-heartedly done in the past and the city needs a single, unified, clear vision for the future.

 

 

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All roads lead to Gorgie
18 hours ago, skinnybob72 said:

 It takes me 30 mins to drive to work in the city (leaving at daft o’clock to avoid gridlock..) but it takes about 75 mins on public transport. I have zero intention of using public transport when it would add an extra 7.5hrs a week to my commute. 

I think money would be better spent on more of those buses with a separate exit door. The time wasted at stops as you are kept waiting to board by the passengers leaving causes a lot of delay.

Not so sure the out of town bus companies would be willing to spend more on that type of bus though. They are actually a bit longer too so maybe the space at stops is not yet suited to having the fleet all the same. 

I contradicted my argument a bit at the end there. 🙂

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Mikey1874
16 minutes ago, Cade said:

The city centre infrastructure cannot physically be expanded to accommodate more traffic, but the greater Edinburgh metropolitan area continues to expand.

It makes perfect sense to restrict traffic in the very heart of the city centre but it must be done with joined-up thinking and a view to future-proofing it.

 

I don't trust ECC to handle it the right way.

 

There are several pinch points in the city centre that need serious attention (top of Leith St, Shandwick Place, Waverly Steps, Hunter Square junction to name but a few). 

 

Traffic calming, pedestrian priority and public transport corridors have all been kind of half-heartedly done in the past and the city needs a single, unified, clear vision for the future.

 

 

 

That is my concern. 

 

For a complex project will the Council do it well. 

 

To be fair I think this proposal does accept the previous has been half hearted and they need a final, comprehensive arrangement. But is it right? 

Edited by Mikey1874

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Ibrahim Tall

Why do you even ‘need’ a car in the centre of Edinburgh? Trains/busses/trams are all pretty accessible and regular aswell as being affordable in comparison to the parking costs etc and far less of a pain in the arse too.

 

For tradesman or deliveries etc fair enough but I’d imagine they’d be exempt or atleast accounted for in any ‘pedestrianisation’ plan just like they are in any other town or city in the world. Anyone that actually enjoys driving anywhere near Princes St needs their head looked at.

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Iamborg
6 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

We can always use some of the money we are getting for streets around Waterloo Place being closed for filming.

 

Oh wait, we didn't charge for that.

 

:facepalm:

I had the misfortune of picking up passengers at a hotel in Waterloo Place earlier today  , not only was parking a problem but 

 

neither i or the passengers were allowed to walk down the street for 15 mins as they were filming .

 

Lets just say no one was overly impressed .

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The Real Maroonblood
2 hours ago, Ibrahim Tall said:

Why do you even ‘need’ a car in the centre of Edinburgh? Trains/busses/trams are all pretty accessible and regular aswell as being affordable in comparison to the parking costs etc and far less of a pain in the arse too.

 

For tradesman or deliveries etc fair enough but I’d imagine they’d be exempt or atleast accounted for in any ‘pedestrianisation’ plan just like they are in any other town or city in the world. Anyone that actually enjoys driving anywhere near Princes St needs their head looked at.

Good post.

Unfortunately a lot of motorists are lazy and must use the car regardless.

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been here before
3 hours ago, Ibrahim Tall said:

Why do you even ‘need’ a car in the centre of Edinburgh? Trains/busses/trams are all pretty accessible and regular aswell as being affordable in comparison to the parking costs etc and far less of a pain in the arse too.

 

For tradesman or deliveries etc fair enough but I’d imagine they’d be exempt or atleast accounted for in any ‘pedestrianisation’ plan just like they are in any other town or city in the world. Anyone that actually enjoys driving anywhere near Princes St needs their head looked at.

 

Its very, very rarely Im in the centre of the town these days but if I am then its generally for something specific from the one shop. If I cant do it on my bike then Id far rather drive in to complete a mission that can be carried out in less than an hour with a quick infiltration and an equally brief extraction.

 

It costs roughly between 3 and £4.50 to park for an hour in central Edinburgh.

 

A return bus fare is £3.40

 

A bus , providing it turns up on time takes about half an hour, stops every 100 yards, is rammed with schemies shouting on their mobiles or neds playing shite music. Its the carrier of every germ and disease known to man. Its the most soul destroying form of travel there is.

 

I think Id far rather sit in my car and pay the extra pound or so every now and again.

Edited by been here before

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Bridge of Djoum

It’s always motorists on here complaining about initiatives to make a beautiful city more enjoyable. Walk around and savor Edinburgh rather than driving through it and congesting it even more. 

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fabienleclerq
19 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

In one of a number of ways it is collected in the many cities that have a congestion charge or charge for entering the city centre.. In London it is based on number plate recognition cameras controlling the entrance to a central zone. Other places use a pass that has to be displayed on your windscreen. 

In a city with a relatively compact centre like Edinburgh within the centre of which everything is walkable it would be a simple and painless exercise particularly if combined with enhanced park and ride facilities.

 

If the council goes ahead with the parking space charge and brought in a city centre/congestion charge then public transport workers would be particularly hammered. They can't get to work to run the first or last trains for example without driving. 

 

I get they have to do something but I'm not sure prioritising cyclists again is the way forward. Its a freezing hilly city most of the year, we are never going to turn into Amsterdam. 

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Francis Albert
5 minutes ago, fabienleclerq said:

 

If the council goes ahead with the parking space charge and brought in a city centre/congestion charge then public transport workers would be particularly hammered. They can't get to work to run the first or last trains for example without driving. 

 

I get they have to do something but I'm not sure prioritising cyclists again is the way forward. Its a freezing hilly city most of the year, we are never going to turn into Amsterdam. 

On cyclists I agree. If someone is fit enough to ride a bike they are fit enough to walk anywhere in central Edinburgh.

But there are surely ways around the early start/late finish of public transport workers. For example give them the taxi fare to the nearest park and ride. 

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frankblack
2 hours ago, Bridge of Djoum said:

It’s always motorists on here complaining about initiatives to make a beautiful city more enjoyable. Walk around and savor Edinburgh rather than driving through it and congesting it even more. 

 

Walking from the suburbs into the city is impractical for workers and we have the ERI in the arse end of nowhere with no rail or tram direct to Waverley or Haymarket as an example.

 

The council has its head up its arse and are a complete waste of skin.

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BarneyBattles

Haven’t read the thread so apologies if already mentioned but £300m over ten years sounds pretty much business as usual to me. 

 

We should be investing every year anyway with the exception being that princes street needs major attention urgently. It’s a dump and a national disgrace, it should be one of the best streets in the world and it’s full of phone shops, tat and dreadful architecture. 

 

I remember reading a report years ago along the lines of ‘city centre shopping will die out, retail parks is the future and high streets will have to adapt ‘. 

 

Absolutely spot on and princes street now has to change, pubs, restaurants, outside dining and less buses!

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skinnybob72
41 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Walking from the suburbs into the city is impractical for workers and we have the ERI in the arse end of nowhere with no rail or tram direct to Waverley or Haymarket as an example.

 

The council has its head up its arse and are a complete waste of skin.

And that is almost certainly the biggest issue that the city will have to deal with. 

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Jamie Walker Tash
6 hours ago, Ibrahim Tall said:

Why do you even ‘need’ a car in the centre of Edinburgh? Trains/busses/trams are all pretty accessible and regular aswell as being affordable in comparison to the parking costs etc and far less of a pain in the arse too.

 

For tradesman or deliveries etc fair enough but I’d imagine they’d be exempt or atleast accounted for in any ‘pedestrianisation’ plan just like they are in any other town or city in the world. Anyone that actually enjoys driving anywhere near Princes St needs their head looked at.

I spend 8 hours a day driving a bus through Edinburgh, last thing i want to do is spend an extra 2 hours on one as a passenger.

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frankblack
1 minute ago, TheStig said:

I spend 8 hours a day driving a bus through Edinburgh, last thing i want to do is spend an extra 2 hours on one as a passenger.

 

Spot on.

 

Those that are anti-car are usually those that spend over the top to get an apartment within 15 minutes walk of the city centre.  The news for these people is that the boundaries of the city extend several miles either side of Princes Street and the clowns in city chambers should support these areas too.

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Jamie Walker Tash
57 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Spot on.

 

Those that are anti-car are usually those that spend over the top to get an apartment within 15 minutes walk of the city centre.  The news for these people is that the boundaries of the city extend several miles either side of Princes Street and the clowns in city chambers should support these areas too.

Yip there should be more express buses for those of us in gorebridge, penicuik Mayfield and so on. Not everyone works 9 till 5 either, if i start at 4am its a 20 mins drive, getting up at 2am to get a bus is just unnecessary.

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ArcticJambo

Roadworks aside, driving within the city, well along an east to west axis, I find is relatively painless these days.  If they shut or severely cut the access on the Cowgate, it'll be shite.  Any restrictions on intra-city movement will necessitate a serious look at improving the bypass and associated arterial access routes.  Actually, that's a must irrespective.

 

And electrify Bobby's nose please, post haste! :thumbsup:

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luckyBatistuta
On 07/09/2019 at 17:02, skinnybob72 said:

While it’s a lovely idea to have all these pretty open spaces with trees and no traffic it seems to have been ignored that we live in a cold, wet and windy place most of the year. 

 

The council have already clogged the city up with the widening of pavements, replacing roundabouts with lights, bus lanes, etc. This is just an expensive extension to that. 

 

It’s all very well saying that folk with cars should use public transport but that is a rose tinted view. Public transport is slow, unreliable and relatively expensive. It takes me 30 mins to drive to work in the city (leaving at daft o’clock to avoid gridlock..) but it takes about 75 mins on public transport. I have zero intention of using public transport when it would add an extra 7.5hrs a week to my commute. 

 

This...the council already tried this nonsense by closing off blocks of George Street so that they could have tables and chairs outside all the restaurants and pubs. It wasn’t a success because our weather is crap.

 

On 07/09/2019 at 19:09, benny said:

Car tax for going into the City the way forward.

 

 

How does that cut car numbers, folk will still pay it.

 

On 07/09/2019 at 20:46, Jamboross said:

I've never understood all the moaning about the city being 'geared towards tourists'. Tacky souvenir shops and that, sure, they harm the city but generally why are things that are deemed as being "for tourists" not viewed as being good for locals too? Making more attractive public spaces and cutting down on traffic of course makes the city appealing to visitors but cleaner air and nice squares/streets are also there to be enjoyed by us Edinburgh folk. 

 

 

 

The Edinburgh folk are all moving out. The city is now overrun with students and tourists. 

 

15 hours ago, Old Castle Rock said:

They build these cycle segregated lane's and cyclist still use the road's and pavements up and down Leith Walk 

 

Yup, they even give them a little head start with a little green cycle light awe seconds before the motorist. Wtf is the point of them, they don’t know what traffic lights are.

 

 

On another note...the city bypass is not fit for purpose and  they can’t widen it. They need to build a bypass on top of the bypass. This should run from the M8/Hermiston direct to the A1 (possibly one on/off ramp for emergency vehicles) with no on/off ramps along it.  If you would need to come off at any point, then you go on the bottom and if you want to go the full length, then you go on the top, spreading the flow of traffic and easing congestion.

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spirt of 98
On 07/09/2019 at 15:29, Governor Tarkin said:

 

Why? These are the folk who live in the Newtown townhouses' gardens.

 

I'd sure as **** object if the council opened my private garden up for jakeys to lie about in with their tap aff and staffies to shite in.

Spot on more parks in the city equals more space for tramps, jakeys and junkies. Let’s spend the money on one way tickets for these bams to London. 

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FWJ

So how do we get more cars and easier driving and parking in central Edinburgh? (Bearing in mind of course that the more you encourage car use the more people will drive and the more & more cars you will have to accommodate).

 

Agree re the city bypass. It should be at least 3 lanes each way.  And the fact it still has a roundabout in the middle of it is crazy.

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frankblack
12 minutes ago, FWJ said:

So how do we get more cars and easier driving and parking in central Edinburgh? (Bearing in mind of course that the more you encourage car use the more people will drive and the more & more cars you will have to accommodate).

 

Agree re the city bypass. It should be at least 3 lanes each way.  And the fact it still has a roundabout in the middle of it is crazy.

 

Get rid of greenways on roads that don't have a frequent bus service, put speed limit back to 30, synchronise traffic lights to increase throughput, and make pedestrian crossings have a change threshold so they don't go red the second the button is pressed.

 

They also should consider if its necessary for all buses to go through Princes Street.

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Ma Roon
14 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Get rid of greenways on roads that don't have a frequent bus service, put speed limit back to 30, synchronise traffic lights to increase throughput, and make pedestrian crossings have a change threshold so they don't go red the second the button is pressed.

 

They also should consider if its necessary for all buses to go through Princes Street.

The button on pedestrian crossings should have a 30 second delay for safety reasons and give motorists and CYCLIST'S a chance to stop, they go to red instantly and people walk out trusting the traffic to break in an instant 

Whoever signed this present system off clearly has never done a road test it's very dangerous especially in wet and wintery conditions 

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FWJ
31 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Get rid of greenways on roads that don't have a frequent bus service, put speed limit back to 30, synchronise traffic lights to increase throughput, and make pedestrian crossings have a change threshold so they don't go red the second the button is pressed.

 

They also should consider if its necessary for all buses to go through Princes Street.

Which greenways don’t have a frequent bus service (and what is ‘frequent’). Also - if the bus is slower aren’t you going to encourage more people to drive the route instead - reversing any benefit?

The 20mph limits are in places with lots of pedestrians and were put in place as a safety measure.  Don’t know about traffic lights, but I agree, they shouldn’t change immediately.  Isn’t there someplace where there is a countdown on pedestrian crossings which helps to encourage pedestrians from crossing before green - sounds like a good idea to me.

ISTR that avoiding all buses going through Princes Street is one of the things that the Council are looking into (maybe in this review). There is also early talk of a tram going from Haymarket to Nicholson Street via Morrison Street and Lauriston Place as an alternative east-west crossing. 

I’ve a feeling that if more buses are routed via George Street or Queen Street people would complain about that too though.

 

I’m not anti-car, I’ve got one and I occasionally drive through town, but I’m quite prepared to take 4th place behind pedestrians, trams and buses.

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Stuart Lyon
13 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

On cyclists I agree. If someone is fit enough to ride a bike they are fit enough to walk anywhere in central Edinburgh.

But there are surely ways around the early start/late finish of public transport workers. For example give them the taxi fare to the nearest park and ride. 

Re Park&Ride - CeC proposing to make it another cash cow  https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/politics/edinburgh-motorists-could-be-charged-for-park-and-ride-sites-1-4996944

 

Low Emission Zones - congestion charging by another name

 

Proposed parking charges on Sundays - great idea to point motorists to the bus service on a day when the least buses run!

 

All these separated cycle lanes in a city which isn't exactly cycling friendly because of the hills - only the super fit can manage.

 

I don't want to take my car into the city centre but there are times when going from South to North I need to cross it. Otherwise I have to take a longer route causing more pollution.

 

Edinburgh is only congested when people are going to and from work say 7-9:30 am and 16:00 until 18:00 hours. What makes the situation worse is the endless roadworks that seem to plague the city.

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been here before
2 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

Get rid of greenways on roads that don't have a frequent bus service, put speed limit back to 30, synchronise traffic lights to increase throughput, and make pedestrian crossings have a change threshold so they don't go red the second the button is pressed.

 

They also should consider if its necessary for all buses to go through Princes Street.

 

With a couple of exceptions which are 24 hr all the greenways/bus lanes have been open to anyone outside the peak hours of 7:30-9:30 and 4:30 and 6:30 Mon-Fri for about 3 years and still hardly anyone seems to know or use them.

 

Its brilliant driving about somedays, its like having your own private lane.

 

 

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All roads lead to Gorgie
2 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

Get rid of greenways on roads that don't have a frequent bus service, put speed limit back to 30, synchronise traffic lights to increase throughput, and make pedestrian crossings have a change threshold so they don't go red the second the button is pressed.

 

They also should consider if its necessary for all buses to go through Princes Street.

I agree with that. As an example all the buses coming in from Corstorphine through Murrayfield now go along Princes Street. Why isn't there a route going up Morrison Street and then maybe going passed the University , or through the Meadows and directly to the Royal Infirmary. That would cause less congestion at the east end of Princes Street and the North Bridge where there is often a bus snarl up. 

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