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How Would you Fix Scotland?

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ToqueJambo
22 hours ago, JyTees said:

Were the Nats on this thread actually being serious, advocating independence as a fix for our dismal footballing fortunes over the past three decades? I'm intrigued as to the thought process. Any valid reasoning behind this or just typical overzealous, blind optimism?

 

Given the fact we've a Scottish minister for sport, who in Westminster are we to direct our ire towards? What should we write on the placards? I mean it wouldn't be like our first minister and her cronies to shirk existing devolved powers.

 

Where to start. How about the fact that a country that controls all of its economic levers is completely free to make decisions and come up with priorities. For example, we could fund a new TV station that priotises sport and puts money back into the game. W

 

We could take the billions we pay for nuclear missiles, London or England only infrastructure (HS2 anyone?) and divert it to schools and sports facilities. We could decide we want to be really good at [insert sport here] like countries like Australia did a while back with great success and divert funds and alter taxes to pay for it accordingly without relying on Westminster sending us pocketmoney to spend. Australia right now for example has a $200m initiative to get more kids playing sport in school.

 

We could have our own immigration policy to attract new Scots who become sports people like they do in France and other countries.

 

e could fund more health initiatives and infrastructure building.

 

We could have our own energy policy to power Scotland with renewables only and pump the savings into sport.

 

We could use oil resources money to fund sports initiatives instead of sending it all south.

 

The list goes on if you open your mind to the possibilities enjoyed by every other country.

Edited by ToqueJambo

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Gizmo
6 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

Where to start. How about the fact that a country that controls all of its economic levers is completely free to make decisions and come up with priorities. For example, we could fund a new TV station that priotises sport and puts money back into the game. W

 

We could take the billions we pay for nuclear missiles, London or England only infrastructure (HS2 anyone?) and divert it to schools and sports facilities. We could decide we want to be really good at [insert sport here] like countries like Australia did a while back with great success and divert funds and alter taxes to pay for it accordingly without relying on Westminster sending us pocketmoney to spend. Australia right now for example has a $200m initiative to get more kids playing sport in school.

 

We could have our own immigration policy to attract new Scots who become sports people like they do in France and other countries.

 

e could fund more health initiatives and infrastructure building.

 

We could have our own energy policy to power Scotland with renewables only and pump the savings into sport.

 

We could use oil resources money to fund sports initiatives instead of sending it all south.

 

The list goes on if you open your mind to the possibilities enjoyed by every other country.


True. But even so, the folk in charge are old firm minded, unimaginative twats and independence - or better financial controls even - will make no difference to their pea brains.

Short termism and the sectarian divide also pollutes Glasgow where they just want to get one up on each other - but will knit together, thick as theives, when their duopoly is threatened. As pathetic as their hatred is, it is so strong they need each other to exist. 

Improving our performances would be a long term project, which would require everyone pulling in the same direction, with unified approach to coaching at all youth academies, with investment in setting up training centres across the country so every kid can afford to travel and train at one. 

Sadly, it will never happen. The SFA serve the old firm, the cheerleaders with word processors serve the old firm, the refs serve the old firm and the old firm serve themselves...

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alwaysthereinspirit

You know that old adage (might be new) dont fix it if its not broken.

Well thats our football associations take on our game in Scotland.

It'll never get fixed because it starts with removing them. And they'll never agree to that.

We are doomed for many more years of mediocrity. At best.

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Zlatanable
4 hours ago, Gizmo said:


True. But even so, the folk in charge are old firm minded, unimaginative twats and independence - or better financial controls even - will make no difference to their pea brains.

Short termism and the sectarian divide also pollutes Glasgow where they just want to get one up on each other - but will knit together, thick as theives, when their duopoly is threatened. As pathetic as their hatred is, it is so strong they need each other to exist. 

Improving our performances would be a long term project, which would require everyone pulling in the same direction, with unified approach to coaching at all youth academies, with investment in setting up training centres across the country so every kid can afford to travel and train at one. 

Sadly, it will never happen. The SFA serve the old firm, the cheerleaders with word processors serve the old firm, the refs serve the old firm and the old firm serve themselves...

Scotland has never been, and will never be, a singular place. (your italic)

Scotland got away with it before the break up of the Soviet Union. 

There is no fix for Scotland football teams.

 

If Scotland were to become a singular, actual place, it would be the same problem. Scotland is smaller than Celtic and Rangers.

 

 

 

 

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Seymour M Hersh

Easy way to fix it is to stop participating in these tournaments. 

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Sagan

5 year plan

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We_are_the_Hearts
9 minutes ago, Sagan said:

5 year plan

Yip and no one gets to know it. Can't fail 👍😂

Edited by We_are_the_Hearts

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The Skip
On 07/09/2019 at 00:07, shaun.lawson said:

Scotland can't be fixed. It can never be fixed until the Old Firm, who dominate every single thing in Scottish football despite both clubs having contempt for Scotland, leave: either for England or a European Super League.

 

Never-ending Old Firm dominance on the pitch results in Old Firm-friendly referees, Old Firm-friendly administrators, Old Firm-friendly journalists, and Old Firm-friendly managers. All of whom are raised in the same backwards beyond system and perpetuate it, seemingly forevermore. A backwards beyond belief system which still treats Celtic and Rangers as incredibly important when self-evidently, they no longer are. A backwards beyond belief system which is exposed every single week by leagues across Europe which, unlike in the past, people can watch at the click of a button.

 

The national team can't be fixed until it's prioritised. It will never be prioritised as long as the Old Firm remain. Only Celtic and Rangers matter to almost everyone who's anyone in the Scottish game. Their impact is to be the jailers of Scottish football: holding it prisoner to their resources, their needs and their bigotry. If another club builds a good young side, the players are bought by the Old Firm and left on the bench, while their new club complains about "lack of competition". No other club can sustainably grow and become a challenger because of a prize money and revenue system which again, prioritises the Glasgow two at everyone else's expense. And as Celtic and Rangers go backwards on the pitch, so does everyone else. On and on and on it goes.

 

Gate receipt sharing? The Old Firm would never accept it. Summer football? Ditto. A larger league? Same again. Championship playoffs? Ibid. Two bald men fighting over a comb in a constant race to the bottom in which the victims are everyone else. But nothing will ever, ever be done about it. The national team's practically been allowed to die, it's been so bad for so long - yet its failure for more than a generation has resulted in the square root of sweet FA being done to change things.  

 

Scotland got away with much of this in the past because football wasn't global in the way it is now; because there were fewer national teams while the USSR and the former Yugoslavia were still intact; and as more or less the founders of the sport, it had a historic advantage over most other nations for a long, long time. Yet other nations modernised. Other nations brought in new coaching methods. Scotland just stayed the same ("get your foot in! Be hard to beat! Hoof it up the park! When in doubt, hoof it out!")... and the one good thing it kept doing, producing great managers, has stopped as well.

 

And of course, kids no longer playing football in the streets and de-industrialisation have more than played their part as well. It's playstation, the internet, mobile phones and junk food instead. As a result of all this, there's nothing left. The baw's burst. The game's a bogey.

 

This.

 

Setting aside social issues etc the biggest problem in Scottish football is that the OF are seen as bigger, better and more important than anything else. That is the case from the media, the SFA/SPFL, the OF fans and most importantly the vast majority of Scottish players.

 

Take Scott Brown as an example, personal feelings aside, we will never know how good a player he could have been or even is. He had the chance to join clubs in England but took the lazy and unambitious route and joined Celtic to play in a poor league and be the big fish in the small pond, rather than actually go out there and test himself against some of the best players in the world on a weekly basis. Our media lapped it up as a great move to a great club etc as they always do, no one raised the point that moving from Hibs to Celtic and carrying on playing in the same league wasn't going to improve him as a player. Thus he has stalled and he and we will never know how good a player he could have been. The same is going to happen to James Forrest, Callum McGregor, Ryan Christie, Mikey Johnston etc unless they wake up to the fact that, in this day and age, playing for Celtic for any great length of time is massively unambitious.

 

Compare that to Tierney, when Arsenal first made their move how many pundits were out saying it would be a great move for his career, to go and test yourself, and that for the benefit of his career he should move, none. It was all think of what he would be leaving behind, all the medals he will win, it's an honour to play for Celtic from the likes of Pat Bonnar and then the fans join in calling him a rat for moving on instead of staying for 10 in a row. Instead they should be asking what would he have been achieving by staying in Scotland and playing in a league that he has won (4 times? in a row) already. But no, Celtic are more important than the player's development. Also look at the end of last season when he needed an urgent operation that meant he couldn't play for Scotland as it needed done ASAP. That didn't stop him putting it off until he played in the cup final. Not a single question asked by the media, or to the player himself, as to why Celtic were more important than Scotland.

 

Also look at the players like Stuart Armstrong, you speak to any Celtic fan and it was like he committed treason leaving them. So much so that they all want him to fail down south so that they can all have a cheap dig at him, rather than actually acknowledge the fact he at least tried to better himself.

 

Add in the fact that Celtic and unfortunately Rangers have been, for at least the last 20 years, in the position to hoover up the best young players as relatively cheap gambles. Some work out, the likes of Ryan Christie but even he was sent out on loan for 2 years and still sits as having played his whole career in Scotland. But what about the likes of Lewis Morgan, Scott Allan etc, as soon as the OF are linked with these players every media outlet talks up the move as if its a great thing and can't even bring in the thought that it is highly probable to not work out. The latest in this list is Jake Hastie, signed by Rangers from Motherwell in the summer and loaned straight out to Rotherham. Will he ever get a proper run of games at Rangers or would it have been better for him to stay and play another season at Motherwell. Again the shouts from the media were about what a great move it was for him. See also David Turnbull, made out to be the panto villain and a money grabber when he turned down Celtic without a single member of the media acknowledging that it would have been better for his career to go to Norwich. You can make the same comparison with John McGinn, would he have improved as a player moving to Celtic instead of Villa and playing in the same league as he had done for the rest of his career to date?

 

As far as the players are concerned look at the list of guys that have their heads turned by the OF and go running some of them leaving their boyhood clubs on the belief that the OF are the be all and end all and without any ambition to try out another/better league. The likes of Andy Webster, Jamie Walker, Jason Holt, Ian Murray, Derek Riordan, Stephen Pearson and Ryan Jack. As soon as the OF are mentioned the media go in to fan boy mode and make them out to be at the top of the football ladder rather than acknowledge that young Scottish players should have more ambition than to play out their full careers in a poor league like Scotland. Look at the likes of De Ligt at Ajax, the club and the media know that they know they will only have him for a couple of years and then it is off to one of the big leagues and this it is better for the player and the national team. In Scotland it is played out in the media that the main ambition of any players career should be to play for one of the OF. Forget the bigger and better leagues. (By the way I'm not saying that all of or any of the listed players would have gone on to have a glittering career or comparing them in a ability capacity to De Ligt). (I also note that neither Andy Webster or Jamie Walker left us for Rangers but both had their heads turned and downed tools to try and force through a move).

 

Same for the fans, I find it very hard to find an OF fan that actually cares about the national team. This is because of years of their players pulling out for cheap reasons and putting club before country, again an example of this is Scott Brown who was welcomed back with open arms and given the captaincy on his return from "retirement".

 

Sorry for the long post but in short until at least the majority of the media wake up and realise that the OF are not the be all and end all and at best should be used as a stepping stone to bigger things in players careers and players should be being encouraged to go out and test themselves, then we will always struggle to get our best young players into the bigger and more challenging leagues in Europe and see them develop and mature in to anything resembling good footballers as they will inevitably get the OF pushed on them and then disappear like so many before them.

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Bridge of Djoum
On 09/09/2019 at 13:32, sadj said:

 

See i used to prefer Norwich , well little plumstead but still Norwich now however......

Ok then, Partridge. 

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Gavman81
3 hours ago, The Skip said:

 

This.

 

Setting aside social issues etc the biggest problem in Scottish football is that the OF are seen as bigger, better and more important than anything else. That is the case from the media, the SFA/SPFL, the OF fans and most importantly the vast majority of Scottish players.

 

Take Scott Brown as an example, personal feelings aside, we will never know how good a player he could have been or even is. He had the chance to join clubs in England but took the lazy and unambitious route and joined Celtic to play in a poor league and be the big fish in the small pond, rather than actually go out there and test himself against some of the best players in the world on a weekly basis. Our media lapped it up as a great move to a great club etc as they always do, no one raised the point that moving from Hibs to Celtic and carrying on playing in the same league wasn't going to improve him as a player. Thus he has stalled and he and we will never know how good a player he could have been. The same is going to happen to James Forrest, Callum McGregor, Ryan Christie, Mikey Johnston etc unless they wake up to the fact that, in this day and age, playing for Celtic for any great length of time is massively unambitious.

 

Compare that to Tierney, when Arsenal first made their move how many pundits were out saying it would be a great move for his career, to go and test yourself, and that for the benefit of his career he should move, none. It was all think of what he would be leaving behind, all the medals he will win, it's an honour to play for Celtic from the likes of Pat Bonnar and then the fans join in calling him a rat for moving on instead of staying for 10 in a row. Instead they should be asking what would he have been achieving by staying in Scotland and playing in a league that he has won (4 times? in a row) already. But no, Celtic are more important than the player's development. Also look at the end of last season when he needed an urgent operation that meant he couldn't play for Scotland as it needed done ASAP. That didn't stop him putting it off until he played in the cup final. Not a single question asked by the media, or to the player himself, as to why Celtic were more important than Scotland.

 

Also look at the players like Stuart Armstrong, you speak to any Celtic fan and it was like he committed treason leaving them. So much so that they all want him to fail down south so that they can all have a cheap dig at him, rather than actually acknowledge the fact he at least tried to better himself.

 

Add in the fact that Celtic and unfortunately Rangers have been, for at least the last 20 years, in the position to hoover up the best young players as relatively cheap gambles. Some work out, the likes of Ryan Christie but even he was sent out on loan for 2 years and still sits as having played his whole career in Scotland. But what about the likes of Lewis Morgan, Scott Allan etc, as soon as the OF are linked with these players every media outlet talks up the move as if its a great thing and can't even bring in the thought that it is highly probable to not work out. The latest in this list is Jake Hastie, signed by Rangers from Motherwell in the summer and loaned straight out to Rotherham. Will he ever get a proper run of games at Rangers or would it have been better for him to stay and play another season at Motherwell. Again the shouts from the media were about what a great move it was for him. See also David Turnbull, made out to be the panto villain and a money grabber when he turned down Celtic without a single member of the media acknowledging that it would have been better for his career to go to Norwich. You can make the same comparison with John McGinn, would he have improved as a player moving to Celtic instead of Villa and playing in the same league as he had done for the rest of his career to date?

 

As far as the players are concerned look at the list of guys that have their heads turned by the OF and go running some of them leaving their boyhood clubs on the belief that the OF are the be all and end all and without any ambition to try out another/better league. The likes of Andy Webster, Jamie Walker, Jason Holt, Ian Murray, Derek Riordan, Stephen Pearson and Ryan Jack. As soon as the OF are mentioned the media go in to fan boy mode and make them out to be at the top of the football ladder rather than acknowledge that young Scottish players should have more ambition than to play out their full careers in a poor league like Scotland. Look at the likes of De Ligt at Ajax, the club and the media know that they know they will only have him for a couple of years and then it is off to one of the big leagues and this it is better for the player and the national team. In Scotland it is played out in the media that the main ambition of any players career should be to play for one of the OF. Forget the bigger and better leagues. (By the way I'm not saying that all of or any of the listed players would have gone on to have a glittering career or comparing them in a ability capacity to De Ligt). (I also note that neither Andy Webster or Jamie Walker left us for Rangers but both had their heads turned and downed tools to try and force through a move).

 

Same for the fans, I find it very hard to find an OF fan that actually cares about the national team. This is because of years of their players pulling out for cheap reasons and putting club before country, again an example of this is Scott Brown who was welcomed back with open arms and given the captaincy on his return from "retirement".

 

Sorry for the long post but in short until at least the majority of the media wake up and realise that the OF are not the be all and end all and at best should be used as a stepping stone to bigger things in players careers and players should be being encouraged to go out and test themselves, then we will always struggle to get our best young players into the bigger and more challenging leagues in Europe and see them develop and mature in to anything resembling good footballers as they will inevitably get the OF pushed on them and then disappear like so many before them.

Good post mate.

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GiantJambo
On 09/09/2019 at 19:15, avhudtheteeshirt said:

Like your analogy, its the same as the American dream for coloured Americans made their sports great in order to get out of the ghettos!!!!

It's exactly the same. Thanks for the comment.

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GiantJambo
On 09/09/2019 at 11:48, Allowayjambo1874 said:

I thought the same but didn’t want to post it as someone is bound to bring the racist card into the equation. Another thing about immigrants is, in the main, they are in extreme poverty when they arrive in new countries so the desire to achieve success as an individual drives people on. Just read Lukaku’s comments on his childhood and his mother’s sacrifices. When listening to players from the most successful Scotland teams many of the players were trying to escape the pits so were totally focused. 

I think we've managed to avoid being racist. It's not really about race or ethnicity anyway, it's about being accepted in society and increased social status. Another example would be the cricket tradition that fast bowlers used to be found working in the coal mines; 50 years ago football gave an escape route from heavy industry; rugby forwards were Borders farm workers. The working class has declined in size enormously since then (sociological fact) while the m/cl has grown. The incentives just aren't there any more.

 

It's at least arguable that having crap international teams is a price worth paying for the general improvement in living standards.

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GiantJambo

Costa Jambo, this is a great thread. Well done.👏

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Jasonauskas

Too many blazers with their nose in the trough, it’ll never change until they are removed from the SFA.

 

 

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Dalstonjambo
19 hours ago, The Skip said:

 

This.

 

Setting aside social issues etc the biggest problem in Scottish football is that the OF are seen as bigger, better and more important than anything else. That is the case from the media, the SFA/SPFL, the OF fans and most importantly the vast majority of Scottish players.

 

Take Scott Brown as an example, personal feelings aside, we will never know how good a player he could have been or even is. He had the chance to join clubs in England but took the lazy and unambitious route and joined Celtic to play in a poor league and be the big fish in the small pond, rather than actually go out there and test himself against some of the best players in the world on a weekly basis. Our media lapped it up as a great move to a great club etc as they always do, no one raised the point that moving from Hibs to Celtic and carrying on playing in the same league wasn't going to improve him as a player. Thus he has stalled and he and we will never know how good a player he could have been. The same is going to happen to James Forrest, Callum McGregor, Ryan Christie, Mikey Johnston etc unless they wake up to the fact that, in this day and age, playing for Celtic for any great length of time is massively unambitious.

 

Compare that to Tierney, when Arsenal first made their move how many pundits were out saying it would be a great move for his career, to go and test yourself, and that for the benefit of his career he should move, none. It was all think of what he would be leaving behind, all the medals he will win, it's an honour to play for Celtic from the likes of Pat Bonnar and then the fans join in calling him a rat for moving on instead of staying for 10 in a row. Instead they should be asking what would he have been achieving by staying in Scotland and playing in a league that he has won (4 times? in a row) already. But no, Celtic are more important than the player's development. Also look at the end of last season when he needed an urgent operation that meant he couldn't play for Scotland as it needed done ASAP. That didn't stop him putting it off until he played in the cup final. Not a single question asked by the media, or to the player himself, as to why Celtic were more important than Scotland.

 

Also look at the players like Stuart Armstrong, you speak to any Celtic fan and it was like he committed treason leaving them. So much so that they all want him to fail down south so that they can all have a cheap dig at him, rather than actually acknowledge the fact he at least tried to better himself.

 

Add in the fact that Celtic and unfortunately Rangers have been, for at least the last 20 years, in the position to hoover up the best young players as relatively cheap gambles. Some work out, the likes of Ryan Christie but even he was sent out on loan for 2 years and still sits as having played his whole career in Scotland. But what about the likes of Lewis Morgan, Scott Allan etc, as soon as the OF are linked with these players every media outlet talks up the move as if its a great thing and can't even bring in the thought that it is highly probable to not work out. The latest in this list is Jake Hastie, signed by Rangers from Motherwell in the summer and loaned straight out to Rotherham. Will he ever get a proper run of games at Rangers or would it have been better for him to stay and play another season at Motherwell. Again the shouts from the media were about what a great move it was for him. See also David Turnbull, made out to be the panto villain and a money grabber when he turned down Celtic without a single member of the media acknowledging that it would have been better for his career to go to Norwich. You can make the same comparison with John McGinn, would he have improved as a player moving to Celtic instead of Villa and playing in the same league as he had done for the rest of his career to date?

 

As far as the players are concerned look at the list of guys that have their heads turned by the OF and go running some of them leaving their boyhood clubs on the belief that the OF are the be all and end all and without any ambition to try out another/better league. The likes of Andy Webster, Jamie Walker, Jason Holt, Ian Murray, Derek Riordan, Stephen Pearson and Ryan Jack. As soon as the OF are mentioned the media go in to fan boy mode and make them out to be at the top of the football ladder rather than acknowledge that young Scottish players should have more ambition than to play out their full careers in a poor league like Scotland. Look at the likes of De Ligt at Ajax, the club and the media know that they know they will only have him for a couple of years and then it is off to one of the big leagues and this it is better for the player and the national team. In Scotland it is played out in the media that the main ambition of any players career should be to play for one of the OF. Forget the bigger and better leagues. (By the way I'm not saying that all of or any of the listed players would have gone on to have a glittering career or comparing them in a ability capacity to De Ligt). (I also note that neither Andy Webster or Jamie Walker left us for Rangers but both had their heads turned and downed tools to try and force through a move).

 

Same for the fans, I find it very hard to find an OF fan that actually cares about the national team. This is because of years of their players pulling out for cheap reasons and putting club before country, again an example of this is Scott Brown who was welcomed back with open arms and given the captaincy on his return from "retirement".

 

Sorry for the long post but in short until at least the majority of the media wake up and realise that the OF are not the be all and end all and at best should be used as a stepping stone to bigger things in players careers and players should be being encouraged to go out and test themselves, then we will always struggle to get our best young players into the bigger and more challenging leagues in Europe and see them develop and mature in to anything resembling good footballers as they will inevitably get the OF pushed on them and then disappear like so many before them.

Spot on. Superb post. The baw's burst. And it will be until the above is changed.

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sadj
12 hours ago, Dalstonjambo said:

Spot on. Superb post. The baw's burst. And it will be until the above is changed.

 

See Karren Brady had this to say

 

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/sport/football/4718031/deflowering-of-scotlands-national-side-has-been-a-grave-decline-the-system-has-been-bust-for-years/

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sadj
4 hours ago, Nookie Bear said:

 

Not sure she is adding much there tbh

 

 

 

Indeed , pretty much nothing in it thats either not been said or doesn’t sound arsey. 

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