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The Sevco saga continues ...


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Cruickie's Moustache
33 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

There are now 327m shares. At 20p a share that works out at £65m capital value.  Celtic has a £100m market capitalisation.

 

All King's 66.67m shares were bought at 20p a share, so at break even he gets £13.33m back.

 

He claims to have put £40m into the club in total. £20m of that was invested in the Oldco back in 2000 and was lost when the Oldco went into liquidation.   

 

Of the more recent £20m, he was paid back around £1.3m of a loan a couple of months ago, but still has a £5m loan outstanding (earning 8% interest). So £13.33m + £1.3m + £5m has been his "investment" in the Newco. 

 

Any additional costs would have been incurred by King in legal fees when he lost his battle with the Takeover Panel. 

 

I've seen reports that Club 1872 has three years to come up with the cash.  Over the last 5 years they have bought shares for £1.5m.  I imagine that they won't have much more than £1m in free cash at the moment.

 

A dilemma that Club 1872 faces is that their cash won't be going into the club, but into King's pocket.

Don't have time at this late hour to do the calcs  but for the figures being used it makes  the Bidco / FoH arrangement look like deal of the century.

Circa £13m for only around a quarter of the current share ownership!!

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1 hour ago, Footballfirst said:

I've seen reports that Club 1872 has three years to come up with the cash.  Over the last 5 years they have bought shares for £1.5m.  I imagine that they won't have much more than £1m in free cash at the moment.

 

A dilemma that Club 1872 faces is that their cash won't be going into the club, but into King's pocket.

 

Noting papers are reporting they get a discount if they come up with the money in 1yr. 

I don't think they'll get their ideal 20k of supporters to chip in £18.72 a month but i do think they will make good progress towards it if they can spin the positivity (especially when they are top of the league). 

 

I read somewhere that Club 1872 still has Chris Graham involved and that they have failed repeatedly to speak out against the board. It sounds like another Rangers organisation run by people in it for the hospitality access and ego trip. 

 

I guess the devil will be in the detail for this - the most obvious thing being that Club1872 will not want to authorise the allocation of new shares if it dilutes their holding. This may become a problem if they can't secure debt for equity swaps or loans to cover their losses. 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Footballfirst said:

There are now 327m shares. At 20p a share that works out at £65m capital value.  Celtic has a £100m market capitalisation.

 

All King's 66.67m shares were bought at 20p a share, so at break even he gets £13.33m back.

 

He claims to have put £40m into the club in total. £20m of that was invested in the Oldco back in 2000 and was lost when the Oldco went into liquidation.   

 

Of the more recent £20m, he was paid back around £1.3m of a loan a couple of months ago, but still has a £5m loan outstanding (earning 8% interest). So £13.33m + £1.3m + £5m has been his "investment" in the Newco. 

 

Any additional costs would have been incurred by King in legal fees when he lost his battle with the Takeover Panel. 

 

I've seen reports that Club 1872 has three years to come up with the cash.  Over the last 5 years they have bought shares for £1.5m.  I imagine that they won't have much more than £1m in free cash at the moment.

 

A dilemma that Club 1872 faces is that their cash won't be going into the club, but into King's pocket.

 

In the BBC article I saw, Dave King was claiming the the shares were worth 50p, that would value Rangers at over £160m, which is clearly ridiculous.  Celtic's market capitalisation includes cash in the bank, Rangers have no cash in the bank and indeed have debts and contingent liabilities.

 

I'm no expert, but I know you like to delve into the finances of football clubs.  Would you value Rangers shares at 20p?  My gut feel is that the shares are worth nowhere near that, but as I say, I'm no expert.

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Footballfirst
5 hours ago, RobNox said:

 

In the BBC article I saw, Dave King was claiming the the shares were worth 50p, that would value Rangers at over £160m, which is clearly ridiculous.  Celtic's market capitalisation includes cash in the bank, Rangers have no cash in the bank and indeed have debts and contingent liabilities.

 

I'm no expert, but I know you like to delve into the finances of football clubs.  Would you value Rangers shares at 20p?  My gut feel is that the shares are worth nowhere near that, but as I say, I'm no expert.

I've read Kevin Maguires book on the Price of Football which gives alternative ways of calculating the value of a club.  There is no definitive measure which is appropriate.

some examples:

Balance sheet value (net assets) which in RIFC's case is £31.7m

Stock market value - N/A but if you used the 20p share price then you would get £65.4m

Comparative sales values - N/A as there are no similar sales to compare against. In England they have typically ranged between 1.5 and 2 times revenue which would be between £88.5m and £118m.

Discounted Cash Flow - calculating this is beyond my ken as a non accountant

The Markham Multivariate Model - This is a formula based calculation of (Revenue+ Net Assets) x ((Net Profit + Revenue) /Revenue) x (Stadium Capacity%/Wage Ratio) so (59+31.7) x ((-17.5+59)/59) x (95%/74%) which by my calculations is £82.3m

 

So there you have it, anything from £31.7m to £118m

 

Hearts Balance Sheet value would be £17.95m

Comparative sales values (1.5 to 2 times revenue) would be £18.4m to £25.4m

Hearts MMM figures would be (12.27+17.95) x ((0.47+12.27)/12.27) x (80%(?)/71.55%) which would work out at £35m.

 

So take your pick. 

 

Note that these figures were based on the Covid affected accounts.

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1 hour ago, Footballfirst said:

I've read Kevin Maguires book on the Price of Football which gives alternative ways of calculating the value of a club.  There is no definitive measure which is appropriate.

some examples:

Balance sheet value (net assets) which in RIFC's case is £31.7m

Stock market value - N/A but if you used the 20p share price then you would get £65.4m

Comparative sales values - N/A as there are no similar sales to compare against. In England they have typically ranged between 1.5 and 2 times revenue which would be between £88.5m and £118m.

Discounted Cash Flow - calculating this is beyond my ken as a non accountant

The Markham Multivariate Model - This is a formula based calculation of (Revenue+ Net Assets) x ((Net Profit + Revenue) /Revenue) x (Stadium Capacity%/Wage Ratio) so (59+31.7) x ((-17.5+59)/59) x (95%/74%) which by my calculations is £82.3m

 

So there you have it, anything from £31.7m to £118m

 

Hearts Balance Sheet value would be £17.95m

Comparative sales values (1.5 to 2 times revenue) would be £18.4m to £25.4m

Hearts MMM figures would be (12.27+17.95) x ((0.47+12.27)/12.27) x (80%(?)/71.55%) which would work out at £35m.

 

So take your pick. 

 

Note that these figures were based on the Covid affected accounts.

These are interesting formulae but in the final analysis a club is only worth what someone is willing to pay.

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7 hours ago, RobNox said:

 

In the BBC article I saw, Dave King was claiming the the shares were worth 50p, that would value Rangers at over £160m, which is clearly ridiculous.  Celtic's market capitalisation includes cash in the bank, Rangers have no cash in the bank and indeed have debts and contingent liabilities.

 

I'm no expert, but I know you like to delve into the finances of football clubs.  Would you value Rangers shares at 20p?  My gut feel is that the shares are worth nowhere near that, but as I say, I'm no expert.

King’s no mug. He’ll be delighted to get his money back or was it his children’s inheritance.

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Ex member of the SaS
12 hours ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

Wouldn't be hilarious if Mk II were cruising the league only to go into administration and have 25 points (2nd time if they are still saying they are the same team) to lose the league to the other cheek by a point. I think Glasgow might fracture away from the mainland float out into the Atlantic and sink. 

NOOOOO! As much as I hate both ars cheeks It would be far better if Sevco went buts with a points deduction and won the league but 1 point. That way Celtic don't get 10 in a row and Sevco are gone for good.

IF Celtic win 10 in a row we will never hear the end of it. Far better they didn't win it at ( almost ) any cost.

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3 minutes ago, Ex member of the SaS said:

NOOOOO! As much as I hate both ars cheeks It would be far better if Sevco went buts with a points deduction and won the league but 1 point. That way Celtic don't get 10 in a row and Sevco are gone for good.

IF Celtic win 10 in a row we will never hear the end of it. Far better they didn't win it at ( almost ) any cost.

I hate the rangers but I would rather the Sultan of Brunei bought them, built them a gold plated 80,000 seated stadium and had Messi as their first signing than allow septic to win 10 in a row. They will bleat about that for the next 50 years!!!

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Ex member of the SaS

Got to love the reporting that they now become ( after they by The Lying King's shares ) the biggest share holders. If new shares have been sold then that calc is why off surely.

Either way they are basically buying toilet paper.

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12 hours ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

Wouldn't be hilarious if Mk II were cruising the league only to go into administration and have 25 points (2nd time if they are still saying they are the same team) to lose the league to the other cheek by a point. I think Glasgow might fracture away from the mainland float out into the Atlantic and sink. 


We can but hope

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Footballfirst
11 minutes ago, Ex member of the SaS said:

Got to love the reporting that they now become ( after they by The Lying King's shares ) the biggest share holders. If new shares have been sold then that calc is why off surely.

Either way they are basically buying toilet paper.

Current major holdings

 

  • New Oasis Asset Limited, 66,672,893, 20.37%

  • Douglas Park, 40,000,000, 12.22%

  • George Alexander Taylor, 31,574,998, 9.65%

  • Stuart Gibson, 25,000,000, 7.64%

  • Borita Investments Limited, 23,611,955, 7.22%

  • Club 1872, 16,202,838, 4.95%

  • John Bennett 15,800,000 4.83%

  • Barry Scott, 15,145,000, 4.63%

  • George Letham,14,774,516, 4.519%

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On 05/10/2020 at 16:33, Footballfirst said:

There haven't been many updates lately.

 

However, another 42,250,000 shares were issued in RIFC on 30 September @20p a share, raising £8,450,000

Don't know who has bought them yet.  The new shares represent approx 14% of the total shares now issued.

 

https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/SC437060/filing-history

 

Image

Amazing how they keep issuing shares the value still remains at 20p! Haha It's like printing money! As long as some mug is willing to hand over real money for them...This is a better wheeze than Bitcoin!

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17 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

Amazing how they keep issuing shares the value still remains at 20p! Haha It's like printing money! As long as some mug is willing to hand over real money for them...This is a better wheeze than Bitcoin!

 

They must have a humongous balance in their share premium account. 

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Seymour M Hersh
1 hour ago, Ex member of the SaS said:

NOOOOO! As much as I hate both ars cheeks It would be far better if Sevco went buts with a points deduction and won the league but 1 point. That way Celtic don't get 10 in a row and Sevco are gone for good.

IF Celtic win 10 in a row we will never hear the end of it. Far better they didn't win it at ( almost ) any cost.

 

I like your thinking there. But as for never hearing the end of it outside of the arse cheeks and the weejie media does anyone really give a **** about 9, 10 or 20 in a row? The league has been bent in their favour for so long I think fans outside of the bigot bubble are immune to their pish. 

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20 minutes ago, 132goals1958 said:

 

They must have a humongous balance in their share premium account. 

Indeed but that it is all rather meaningless, as all it means is that the owners are funding the business via shares because they still have no access to other means. I don't know how wealthy people like Letham are but it must be a tricky decision every season as to whether to pump more money in to maintain your % or just allow it to be diluted...Especially as (and I haven't really been keeping an eye on them recently) King was making noises about exiting...If he is the first large investor to exit he will undoubtedly get the best price from whomsoever buys his shares (fans?). 

 

Rangers once again look like a very expensive vanity project for the directors to rock up to on a Saturday...

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Footballfirst

One line in the RIFC accounts that went largely unnoticed was that RIFC wrote down the value of their equity investment by £30m.  That should be taken as an indication of a more realistic value of TRFC being taken either by the RIFC Board or their auditors

 

"The Parent Company is exempt from disclosing a company-only income statement. Its loss for the year was £30,229,000 (2019 - £1,601,000)."

 

The write off is reflected in the "Total Equity" figure which is £37m, down from £53m in 2019, but would have gone up to £67m without the write down.

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15 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

Indeed but that it is all rather meaningless, as all it means is that the owners are funding the business via shares because they still have no access to other means. I don't know how wealthy people like Letham are but it must be a tricky decision every season as to whether to pump more money in to maintain your % or just allow it to be diluted...Especially as (and I haven't really been keeping an eye on them recently) King was making noises about exiting...If he is the first large investor to exit he will undoubtedly get the best price from whomsoever buys his shares (fans?). 

 

Rangers once again look like a very expensive vanity project for the directors to rock up to on a Saturday...

Yeah that,s what I was alluding to. Whenever the Balance sheet needs bolstered to fund on -going losses they seem to be able to conjure  up equity and loans. Their European success has also helped and it seems they are able to generate a rescue package as and when they wish. 

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13 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

One line in the RIFC accounts that went largely unnoticed was that RIFC wrote down the value of their equity investment by £30m.  That should be taken as an indication of a more realistic value of TRFC being taken either by the RIFC Board or their auditors

 

"The Parent Company is exempt from disclosing a company-only income statement. Its loss for the year was £30,229,000 (2019 - £1,601,000)."

 

The write off is reflected in the "Total Equity" figure which is £37m, down from £53m in 2019, but would have gone up to £67m without the write down.

 

Would be reasonable to assume their net worth was artificially inflated😀

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Hagar the Horrible
13 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

One line in the RIFC accounts that went largely unnoticed was that RIFC wrote down the value of their equity investment by £30m.  That should be taken as an indication of a more realistic value of TRFC being taken either by the RIFC Board or their auditors

 

"The Parent Company is exempt from disclosing a company-only income statement. Its loss for the year was £30,229,000 (2019 - £1,601,000)."

 

The write off is reflected in the "Total Equity" figure which is £37m, down from £53m in 2019, but would have gone up to £67m without the write down.

Trying some quick fag packets maths here  but can you explain these?

 

King wants to sell his 20% stake at 20p per share. that will give to him not the club £13.3m...,reported

He bought all his shares @23.7p per share, so his spin is he is making a loss.

 

But what I am asking is something you reported before  is that over the last 5 years some debt for equity has been converted into shares, thats evey year for 5 years, does that not make the shares actualy worth 4p after diluition?

 

So is he not selling penny shares worth 4p for 20p so is he lying about 23.7p?

 

and finally will that not eat into the pockets of where the the £20m needs to come from to get to the end of season 21/22?

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7 minutes ago, 132goals1958 said:

 

Would be reasonable to assume their net worth was artificially inflated😀

Perhaps by making the write down they will have losses to carry forward and thus any profit they make in any of the next few years ie due to European success or player sales, won't result in having to pay CT. It would perhaps also be useful for their personal taxes to have investment losses?

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Hagar the Horrible

another question is if King is selling his 20% for £13.3m , he is valuing the club at £66.5m  thats a club that has their training facility held by Sports Scotland, and pretty much everything else by Close brothers.

 

History will tell us thet in 2006 SDM tried to do a share issue and ended up selling 1/3rd of MIM to finance that deal and ended up with extra shares he was trying to get rid of?

 

If this was Dragons Den rather than Bearsden I would be saying...Im out!

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Footballfirst
19 minutes ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

Trying some quick fag packets maths here  but can you explain these?

 

King wants to sell his 20% stake at 20p per share. that will give to him not the club £13.3m...,reported

He bought all his shares @23.7p per share, so his spin is he is making a loss.

 

But what I am asking is something you reported before  is that over the last 5 years some debt for equity has been converted into shares, thats evey year for 5 years, does that not make the shares actualy worth 4p after diluition?

 

So is he not selling penny shares worth 4p for 20p so is he lying about 23.7p?

 

and finally will that not eat into the pockets of where the the £20m needs to come from to get to the end of season 21/22?

King's initial purchase of shares was in January 2015 when he acquired 11.9m shares from existing shareholders Artemis and Miton. That purchase was at 20.1p a share although it was widely reported as being 20p.  All his subsequent shares have come from DFE swaps (conversion of loans) at 20p a share.

 

The dilution you describe does not necessarily occur.  If a company simply issues more shares with nothing in return, then yes, the value of the company will stay the same and the value of individual shares will drop proportionately.  If however if the cash (originally in the form of loans) is used to purchase assets, then the value of the company will go up by that amount, but maintain the monetary value of the shares.

 

Rangers have speculated to accumulate. There is no question about that. However, there is a strong argument that they have spent well in recent years in the transfer market and the asset value of their squad has increased considerably, e.g. Tavernier, Morelos, Kent, Barasic, Kamara etc.

 

I think that there may have been some dilution from 20p, but not much.  Their biggest issue at the moment is the structural deficit in running losses year on year. However, if they were to realise the value of one or two of their playing assets each year then that deficit would be wiped out (that's exactly how Celtic has avoided reporting losses over the last few years).    

 

Edit: his spin about the 23.7p average cost will be a reflection of all the costs involved with his shareholding, e.g. he was liable for all the legal fees for himself and the Takeover Panel. 

Edited by Footballfirst
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Hagar the Horrible
2 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

King's initial purchase of shares was in January 2015 when he acquired 11.9m shares from existing shareholders Artemis and Miton. That purchase was at 20.1p a share although it was widely reported as being 20p.  All his subsequent shares have come from DFE swaps (conversion of loans).

 

The dilution you describe does not necessarily occur.  If a company simply issues more shares with nothing in return, then yes, the value of the company will stay the same and the value of individual shares will drop proportionately.  If however if the cash (originally in the form of loans) is used to purchase assets, then the value of the company will go up by that amount, but maintain the monetary value of the shares.

 

Rangers have speculated to accumulate. There is no question about that. However, there is a strong argument that they have spent well in recent years in the transfer market and the asset value of their squad has increased considerably, e.g. Tavernier, Morelos, Kent, Barasic, Kamara etc.

 

I think that there may have been some dilution from 20p, but not much.  Their biggest issue at the moment is the structural deficit in running losses year on year. However, if they were to realise the value of one or two of their playing assets each year then that deficit would be wiped out (that's exactly how Celtic has avoided reporting losses over the last few years).    

Brilliant well explained

 

Not necessary for you to answer, but Club 1872 only raised something like 500k in years, how are they going to raise £13.3m in three years?

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Footballfirst
4 minutes ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

Brilliant well explained

 

Not necessary for you to answer, but Club 1872 only raised something like 500k in years, how are they going to raise £13.3m in three years?

At the moment, they are advertising investments at £500 a pop, so if they can get 26,000 gullible individuals to take up the offer then they will hit the target.

 

They put up £1m in September 2018 and a further £500k in November 2019.  I don't know what their current cash reserves are.

Edited by Footballfirst
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6 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

At the moment, they are advertising investments at £500 a pop, so if they can get 26,000 gullible individuals to take up the offer then they will hit the target.

 

They put up £1m in September 2018 and a further £500k in November 2019.  I don't know what their current cash reserves are.

You certainly know your stuff FF. 

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7 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

At the moment, they are advertising investments at £500 a pop, so if they can get 26,000 gullible individuals to take up the offer then they will hit the target.

 

They put up £1m in September 2018 and a further £500k in November 2019.  I don't know what their current cash reserves are.

What RRM wouldn't want to just hand £500 of his hard-earned to multimillionaire Dave King!? LOL They are so lucky OF fans are stupid...

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Footballfirst
1 minute ago, Spellczech said:

What RRM wouldn't want to just hand £500 of his hard-earned to multimillionaire Dave King!? LOL They are so lucky OF fans are stupid...

I agree.  King, his concert party and Club 1872, were happy to see other shareholders diluted to insignificance through multiple DFE swaps.  There is no reason why the current shareholders should want to change that approach, so it is a surprise that Club 1872 should be seen to repay King £1 for £1, rather than invest directly into the club.

 

It begs the question of whether or not King has placemen/women as directors of Club 1872, to do as he suggests. 

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13 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

I agree.  King, his concert party and Club 1872, were happy to see other shareholders diluted to insignificance through multiple DFE swaps.  There is no reason why the current shareholders should want to change that approach, so it is a surprise that Club 1872 should be seen to repay King £1 for £1, rather than invest directly into the club.

 

It begs the question of whether or not King has placemen/women as directors of Club 1872, to do as he suggests. 

Another interesting thing will be if the fans don't pony up. Will King say "enough" and not contribute to future issues and sit there watching his own % be diluted?

 

As was revealed in the 90s football is a tough investment: A stadium is only worth the land it is build upon and a footballer is always just one nasty tackle away from being worth zip...

 

Like any company owning 49% is little better than owning 0.0000001% unless you put a lot of value in the dignity of wearing a company tie and getting to sit in the directors' box.

 

It is no coincidence that King is trying to exit before 10-IAR. His stock with the bears must be pretty high at the moment. Funny how Celtic are having a torrid time of it right now...Are King and Lawwell golf buddies?

Edited by Spellczech
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6 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

It begs the question of whether or not King has placemen/women as directors of Club 1872, to do as he suggests. 

 

There has been social media criticism of the Club1872 officials that they would not criticise the board and specifically King in the past. It's probably a given that Chris Graham would sell his first born to hobnob in a directors box so it shouldn't be a surprise. 

 

If anything comes from this new share buying bonanza it's that you'd expect debt for equity swaps to be off the table to protect their status as the biggest shareholder. 

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42 minutes ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

another question is if King is selling his 20% for £13.3m , he is valuing the club at £66.5m  thats a club that has their training facility held by Sports Scotland, and pretty much everything else by Close brothers.

 

History will tell us thet in 2006 SDM tried to do a share issue and ended up selling 1/3rd of MIM to finance that deal and ended up with extra shares he was trying to get rid of?

 

If this was Dragons Den rather than Bearsden I would be saying...Im out!

At 20p (or thereabouts a share) that means King has around 60/65  MILLION shares in Rangers ?

Rangers have issued , on that basis, around 300 million shares ? 

 

On another note : is the share sell off simply so that King gets his DFE money back - but to avoid this being obvious, he's selling his entire shareholding. Not very "loyal" of him. 

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Footballfirst
6 minutes ago, NANOJAMBO said:

At 20p (or thereabouts a share) that means King has around 60/65  MILLION shares in Rangers ?

Rangers have issued , on that basis, around 300 million shares ? 

 

On another note : is the share sell off simply so that King gets his DFE money back - but to avoid this being obvious, he's selling his entire shareholding. Not very "loyal" of him. 

The share numbers are further up the thread.

 

Yes, King is simply looking to get all his money back.

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14 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

The share numbers are further up the thread.

 

Yes, King is simply looking to get all his money back.

Cheers, I'm having trouble keeping up with this now. 

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Footballfirst

Club 1872 is saying that it's had 700 people sign up to the £500 deal. It can be paid in full, or over 10 months @£50, or 25 months @£20.

 

That's £350k accounted for, just the £13m to go.

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20 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

Club 1872 is saying that it's had 700 people sign up to the £500 deal. It can be paid in full, or over 10 months @£50, or 25 months @£20.

 

That's £350k accounted for, just the £13m to go.

 

haha, just another 25,700 gullibillies @ £500 a skull needed then.

 

The line about Sevco's squad being worth big money is dubious. Kent is the only guy anybody has sniffed at and Sevco need over £10m to make a profit. Just because Lennon is a dumpling doesn't make RIFC players attractive to epl sides.  I'm not buying their Europa run either until they beat a side not ravaged by covid.  

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Seems to be more than a bit of haste about Kings reversal out of the club. Possibly even more telling that he wants this done fairly quickly. Wonder what he actually knows about what the future holds. 

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AllyjamboDerbyshire

Not sure if there's been any announcement from the boardroom, but I do wonder if the board, and in particular those who most recently pumped more money into the club, are all that enamoured with King trying to syphon off money from a source that they, those left behind carrying the can, might well have envisioned coming into the club's coffers at some time quite soon. It would surely be of more benefit to the club if the £500 donations, sorry share purchase, was used to buy new shares in some future super wonderful opportunity for supporters to buy...more confetti.

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1 hour ago, AllyjamboDerbyshire said:

Not sure if there's been any announcement from the boardroom, but I do wonder if the board, and in particular those who most recently pumped more money into the club, are all that enamoured with King trying to syphon off money from a source that they, those left behind carrying the can, might well have envisioned coming into the club's coffers at some time quite soon. It would surely be of more benefit to the club if the £500 donations, sorry share purchase, was used to buy new shares in some future super wonderful opportunity for supporters to buy...more confetti.

By all accounts King was on his knees financially so the DFE swap must have embarrassed him. 

He needs to sell to pay back his DFE money lenders ; and as you say, that means the buyers of his shares won't be taking up any new share issue in the near future. But then the Huns were never good at this anyway : the IPO wasn't a great success and historically they don't get behind the club (Murray had to under write - and ultimately pay for - a share issue in oldco due to a lack of enthusiasm by the fans). 

That possibly leaves the current directors stuck with more soft loans & DFE swaps for the foreseeable future.

Unless they stop 10-i-a-r, in which case hubris trumps all. 

Edited by NANOJAMBO
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Ex member of the SaS
11 hours ago, Deevers said:

Seems to be more than a bit of haste about Kings reversal out of the club. Possibly even more telling that he wants this done fairly quickly. Wonder what he actually knows about what the future holds. 

Think we all know it's just a matter of time.

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AllyjamboDerbyshire
10 hours ago, NANOJAMBO said:

By all accounts King was on his knees financially so the DFE swap must have embarrassed him. 

He needs to sell to pay back his DFE money lenders ; and as you say, that means the buyers of his shares won't be taking up any new share issue in the near future. But then the Huns were never good at this anyway : the IPO wasn't a great success and historically they don't get behind the club (Murray had to under write - and ultimately pay for - a share issue in oldco due to a lack of enthusiasm by the fans). 

That possibly leaves the current directors stuck with more soft loans & DFE swaps for the foreseeable future.

Unless they stop 10-i-a-r, in which case hubris trumps all. 

As I said, it would be interesting to know their (the board) thoughts on this latest King development, he's certainly not doing this for the good of the club, and though they might believe otherwise, neither is he dong it out of a sense of altruism towards the club's supporters. But regardless, even if, as seems likely, Club Screw the Fans fails to gather enough to buy all of King's shares, it must surely tap that potential income source dry for some time to come, and I do wonder if, despite their historically poor record of financial support for their clubs, some comfort to recent major investors came from the belief that putting a winning team on the park might encourage fans to support future share issues.

 

Or, put another way, at a time when Hearts supporters are finding ways to add money to FOH during the pandemic, TRFC supporters are being encouraged to cough up cash to an ex-director. 

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6 minutes ago, AllyjamboDerbyshire said:

As I said, it would be interesting to know their (the board) thoughts on this latest King development, he's certainly not doing this for the good of the club, and though they might believe otherwise, neither is he dong it out of a sense of altruism towards the club's supporters. But regardless, even if, as seems likely, Club Screw the Fans fails to gather enough to buy all of King's shares, it must surely tap that potential income source dry for some time to come, and I do wonder if, despite their historically poor record of financial support for their clubs, some comfort to recent major investors came from the belief that putting a winning team on the park might encourage fans to support future share issues.

 

Or, put another way, at a time when Hearts supporters are finding ways to add money to FOH during the pandemic, TRFC supporters are being encouraged to cough up cash to an ex-director. 

Agree with all of this , especially the last para. 

 

But when you have the Daily Ranger reporting the (potential) sale as a "£13 MILLION INJECTION" ... which it clearly isn't.  

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AllyjamboDerbyshire
1 minute ago, NANOJAMBO said:

Agree with all of this , especially the last para. 

 

But when you have the Daily Ranger reporting the (potential) sale as a "£13 MILLION INJECTION" ... which it clearly isn't.  

Injected up their collective ar*e, more like. Unless, of course, they consider ridding the club of King's toxicity to be valued at £13m.

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1 minute ago, AllyjamboDerbyshire said:

Injected up their collective ar*e, more like. Unless, of course, they consider ridding the club of King's toxicity to be valued at £13m.

Interesting perspective. 

On the one hand King floods the market with his unwanted shares but the club gets a boost because it might be more appealing to other investors / sponsors with him gone. 

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1 hour ago, NANOJAMBO said:

Interesting perspective. 

On the one hand King floods the market with his unwanted shares but the club gets a boost because it might be more appealing to other investors / sponsors with him gone. 

He’s still got to get rid of them. I somehow doubt that these geniuses in Club 1872 will be able to raise the 13 million or anywhere near it. It could  well be that King will be hanging around like a really bad smell there for the foreseeable future. 

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On 02/12/2020 at 12:30, Hagar the Horrible said:

another question is if King is selling his 20% for £13.3m , he is valuing the club at £66.5m  thats a club that has their training facility held by Sports Scotland, and pretty much everything else by Close brothers.

 

History will tell us thet in 2006 SDM tried to do a share issue and ended up selling 1/3rd of MIM to finance that deal and ended up with extra shares he was trying to get rid of?

 

If this was Dragons Den rather than Bearsden I would be saying...Im out!

The lying king is not stupid he has probably seen the writing on the wall , being that if he doesn't get out now he will lose all or most of his investment sevco may look like a graceful swan on the surface but under the surface I think they are paddling furiously to keep above water .If sevco are a good investment why get out now seems very peculiar imo as I said King will not lose money

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Footballfirst

Club 1872 is now reporting 1,000 people signed up to their £500 club.

 

Interestingly they have also gone on record as saying that they will be able to participate fully in future share issues.  We know that the club requires £23.2m further funding between this season in next.  It seems highly unlikely that Club 1872 will be able to participate in that funding while raising funds to pay Dave King.

 

If further DFE swaps are required in return for £23.2m funding then Club 1872 will see both their 4.95% and Dave King's 20.37% holdings diluted.  The deal is being sold to fans as providing the opportunity for Club 1872 to have a "negative" controlling stake, i.e. the combination of both stakes is just over the 25% mark which would be enough to block special resolutions such as new share issues.  It is difficult to see how Club 1872 can sustain a holding in excess of 25% in the future.

 

The alternative to repaying future funding need would be to sell off their prized assets, which would not be welcomed if it affected performances on the pitch.

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Hagar the Horrible
13 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

Club 1872 is now reporting 1,000 people signed up to their £500 club.

 

Interestingly they have also gone on record as saying that they will be able to participate fully in future share issues.  We know that the club requires £23.2m further funding between this season in next.  It seems highly unlikely that Club 1872 will be able to participate in that funding while raising funds to pay Dave King.

 

If further DFE swaps are required in return for £23.2m funding then Club 1872 will see both their 4.95% and Dave King's 20.37% holdings diluted.  The deal is being sold to fans as providing the opportunity for Club 1872 to have a "negative" controlling stake, i.e. the combination of both stakes is just over the 25% mark which would be enough to block special resolutions such as new share issues.  It is difficult to see how Club 1872 can sustain a holding in excess of 25% in the future.

 

The alternative to repaying future funding need would be to sell off their prized assets, which would not be welcomed if it affected performances on the pitch.

Just about to say the same thing but with my thoughts

 

Our model has us putting in whatever we can afford into the Foundation, which in essence we can commit to or come and go as our finances dictate.  We will own the club lock stock and barrel, apart from those individual shares we already own.

 

This King/club 1872 model is to pump millions into owning just 20% requiring 26,600 fans to cough up £500.  Why not just buy those shares up as an individual?  They need thousands of fans whom in a pandemic and Christmas is upon us and jobs are at risk, just to put ONE bampot in the directors box.  I bet he has already bought a pair of brown brogues?

In fairness having 1000 people in day 1 is brilliant, but 25,000 people to go is an ask, and what’s worse is the club needs £20m if that is provided by another director as a soft loan and then gets converted to shares (DFE) the 20% holding will be halved every single time that happens.

 

If the club went bust they could buy the whol,e club for what they raised so far, this project only allows King to get his money back, he is the only benefactor

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AllyjamboDerbyshire
41 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

Club 1872 is now reporting 1,000 people signed up to their £500 club.

 

Interestingly they have also gone on record as saying that they will be able to participate fully in future share issues.  We know that the club requires £23.2m further funding between this season in next.  It seems highly unlikely that Club 1872 will be able to participate in that funding while raising funds to pay Dave King.

 

If further DFE swaps are required in return for £23.2m funding then Club 1872 will see both their 4.95% and Dave King's 20.37% holdings diluted.  The deal is being sold to fans as providing the opportunity for Club 1872 to have a "negative" controlling stake, i.e. the combination of both stakes is just over the 25% mark which would be enough to block special resolutions such as new share issues.  It is difficult to see how Club 1872 can sustain a holding in excess of 25% in the future.

 

The alternative to repaying future funding need would be to sell off their prized assets, which would not be welcomed if it affected performances on the pitch.

This is the kind of thing I was referring to earlier and wondering how King's latest Ibrox sortie sits with the board and those who most recently ponied up. I don't know what their beliefs in how the club's future financing shortfall would be managed were, but I'd imagine fan involvement in any share issues would have been anticipated, regardless of past history. I could well imagine, though, that there may have been some expectation there that if the club could challenge (and they are) for the title, and block 10 in a row, then there would have been a far healthier response than TRFC/RIFC has previously experienced. I doubt, though, that they'd have expected as much as £13m+ being raised through fans alone, and even if Club1872 doesn't achieve the full amount, they will be maxing out on their potential donations for quite some time to come. Whatever effect King's self-interest event has on TRFC/RIFC's finances, it surely cannot be welcomed by the board.

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Ex member of the SaS

Ok I know nothing of business and finances but I was always under the impression that company shares equated to the value of the company. Ie The company is worth £100 therefore you could sell 10 shares at £10 each or 100 shares at £1 each.

We don't know how much the Sevco shares are really worth, but divided by the number of shares issued the company must be way over valued.

Maybe someone can come on and correct me if I have this wrong.

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Footballfirst

Court hearings related to the indictment and arrest of David Grier (Duff & Phelps) and the indictment of Imran Ahmad, both following the collapse of RFC and the phoenixing of Secvo are continuing next week.

 

Greir has two actions against the Lord Advocate and Police Scotland, while Ahmad has an action against Police Scotland.

 

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