FWJ Posted August 3, 2019 Share Posted August 3, 2019 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-49202981 Anyone know the story here? Sounds like this could have been pretty serious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horatio Caine Posted August 3, 2019 Share Posted August 3, 2019 1 hour ago, FWJ said: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-49202981 Anyone know the story here? Sounds like this could have been pretty serious. Not sure but I think the train brakes must have failed because the driver apparently radioed the signalling centre to alert them and give him a clear route through Waverley. The train manager then applied the emergency brake which brought the train to a stand in the Calton tunnel. Serco have praised the train crew for their actions, but curiously are citing `human error` as the cause. Something doesn't quite add up. I think the results of an enquiry will be made known next week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homme Posted August 3, 2019 Share Posted August 3, 2019 Not having much luck with that sleeper service are they? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronJambo Posted August 3, 2019 Share Posted August 3, 2019 4 hours ago, Horatio Caine said: Not sure but I think the train brakes must have failed because the driver apparently radioed the signalling centre to alert them and give him a clear route through Waverley. The train manager then applied the emergency brake which brought the train to a stand in the Calton tunnel. Serco have praised the train crew for their actions, but curiously are citing `human error` as the cause. Something doesn't quite add up. I think the results of an enquiry will be made known next week. This doesn't really make sense. Brake failure should mean that the brakes are stuck on. Air pressure constantly keeps the brakes off so when the system fails the brakes get stuck on. No air, brakes clamp on. Basically, the opposite of a car. The guard being able to pull a passcom to stop the train suggests the system was working. The driver also has several ways to stop the train with an emergency brake, he's probably got at least two big red buttons that'll stop it in the same manner that guard did along with the control stick to do the same thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horatio Caine Posted August 3, 2019 Share Posted August 3, 2019 11 minutes ago, IronJambo said: This doesn't really make sense. Brake failure should mean that the brakes are stuck on. Air pressure constantly keeps the brakes off so when the system fails the brakes get stuck on. No air, brakes clamp on. Basically, the opposite of a car. The guard being able to pull a passcom to stop the train suggests the system was working. The driver also has several ways to stop the train with an emergency brake, he's probably got at least two big red buttons that'll stop it in the same manner that guard did along with the control stick to do the same thing. So that maybe explains the `human error` comment? Why, then did they praise the traincrew? What prevented the driver from braking? He obviously realised what was happening so alerted the signaller. I first noticed the train in the Calton tunnel on Traksy and wondered what was going on! At this stage, obviously more questions than answers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronJambo Posted August 3, 2019 Share Posted August 3, 2019 (edited) It was stuck in a tunnel? That'll be why the driver didn't hit an emergency brake when the guard did because you're not meant to stop a train in a tunnel or on a viaduct. Why the driver didn't take action beforehand is another question. It would be harsh but the guard could be bollocked for stopping the train where he/she did. Lots of questions need answering and what actually happened won't come out properly for a few months. Edit: whilst the guard could be bollocked they could also be praised. The company will praise the train crew publicly regardless, they can't do anything else at this stage. Edited August 3, 2019 by IronJambo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FWJ Posted August 3, 2019 Author Share Posted August 3, 2019 If there hadn’t been a clear path for it and at that time of day ... Or maybe the driver knew he had a clear path and that’s why he didn’t apply the emergency brake? (I believe emergency braking can damage the wheels and rails and so is only done in extremis?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Findlay Posted August 3, 2019 Share Posted August 3, 2019 I know a fair bit about this but, will remain silent as there is an ongoing RAIB investigation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Z Posted August 3, 2019 Share Posted August 3, 2019 5 minutes ago, John Findlay said: I know a fair bit about this but, will remain silent as there is an ongoing RAIB investigation Any idea when that's meant to be completed and you can fill us in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Findlay Posted August 3, 2019 Share Posted August 3, 2019 1 minute ago, Justin Z said: Any idea when that's meant to be completed and you can fill us in? Nope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FWJ Posted August 3, 2019 Author Share Posted August 3, 2019 35 minutes ago, John Findlay said: I know a fair bit about this but, will remain silent as there is an ongoing RAIB investigation Quite understand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronJambo Posted August 3, 2019 Share Posted August 3, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, John Findlay said: I know a fair bit about this but, will remain silent as there is an ongoing RAIB investigation I thought you might know things about it. It doesn't look like much of an incident to me at face value but the report in the link is pretty vague and leaves more questions than it answers. I'd quite like to do accident/incident investigations one day. Edited August 3, 2019 by IronJambo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davemclaren Posted August 3, 2019 Share Posted August 3, 2019 3 minutes ago, IronJambo said: I thought you might know things about it. It doesn't look like much of an incident to me at face value but the report in the link is pretty vague and leaves more questions than it answers. I'd quite like to do accident/incident investigations one day. Seemed to overshoot the platform by several hundred yards and ended up straddling a junction thus stopping anything leaving or arriving at the east end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronJambo Posted August 3, 2019 Share Posted August 3, 2019 (edited) 15 minutes ago, davemclaren said: Seemed to overshoot the platform by several hundred yards and ended up straddling a junction thus stopping anything leaving or arriving at the east end. As I said, as far at incidents go it's a near miss at worst. Trains overshoot platforms every day, as well as breach junctions. There was nothing in the story about a SPAD so from where I'm sitting it doesn't look like it was ever in danger of colliding with anything. Edited August 3, 2019 by IronJambo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trotter Posted August 3, 2019 Share Posted August 3, 2019 2 hours ago, John Findlay said: I know a fair bit about this but, will remain silent as there is an ongoing RAIB investigation Correct. That particular train divides in two at Carstairs. Possibly could be an error made then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunks Posted August 3, 2019 Share Posted August 3, 2019 2 hours ago, John Findlay said: I know a fair bit about this but, will remain silent as there is an ongoing RAIB investigation Claiming ITK but telling us nothing. Worse than Agent Jambo IMHO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott herbertson Posted August 4, 2019 Share Posted August 4, 2019 I get the sleeper up and down from Dunkeld and Birnam to London fairly regularly - Im going down next week for example - very old stock now, and often problems, The new trains will presumably be better but the old ones have some advantages (bigger seats, more sociable in the restaurant car) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seymour M Hersh Posted August 4, 2019 Share Posted August 4, 2019 It was just having a long lie in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sooperstar Posted August 4, 2019 Share Posted August 4, 2019 I'm actually the brakes on that train, but I can't say any more about what happened right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1874robbo Posted August 5, 2019 Share Posted August 5, 2019 On 03/08/2019 at 16:59, IronJambo said: It was stuck in a tunnel? That'll be why the driver didn't hit an emergency brake when the guard did because you're not meant to stop a train in a tunnel or on a viaduct. Why the driver didn't take action beforehand is another question. It would be harsh but the guard could be bollocked for stopping the train where he/she did. Lots of questions need answering and what actually happened won't come out properly for a few months. Edit: whilst the guard could be bollocked they could also be praised. The company will praise the train crew publicly regardless, they can't do anything else at this stage. You only avoid stopping your train in a tunnel or on a viaduct if there is an on train fire!! This is to allow easier access for emergency services and evacuation of passengers if necessary. of course you can stop trains in tunnels in other circumstances ffs!!! There are such things as signals placed in tunnels!! Do drivers just spad these signals if they get stopped at them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronJambo Posted August 5, 2019 Share Posted August 5, 2019 44 minutes ago, 1874robbo said: You only avoid stopping your train in a tunnel or on a viaduct if there is an on train fire!! This is to allow easier access for emergency services and evacuation of passengers if necessary. of course you can stop trains in tunnels in other circumstances ffs!!! There are such things as signals placed in tunnels!! Do drivers just spad these signals if they get stopped at them? The rule book says you shouldn't stop a train on a viaduct or a tunnel. That's very clear. There are very obvious reasons for that. I'm not saying it can always be avoided. Stopping at a signal is an altogether different thing and is out of context with an emergency stop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1874robbo Posted August 5, 2019 Share Posted August 5, 2019 I think you need to re read that rule book then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronJambo Posted August 5, 2019 Share Posted August 5, 2019 4 minutes ago, 1874robbo said: I think you need to re read that rule book then. I think I understand it fine enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1874robbo Posted August 5, 2019 Share Posted August 5, 2019 15 minutes ago, IronJambo said: I think I understand it fine enough. Ok then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Do The Dance Posted August 5, 2019 Share Posted August 5, 2019 Are you both train drivers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sooperstar Posted August 5, 2019 Share Posted August 5, 2019 9 hours ago, 1874robbo said: Ok then. You know he is a train driver yeah? You know about the big jug aye? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake Posted August 5, 2019 Share Posted August 5, 2019 On 04/08/2019 at 07:34, scott herbertson said: I get the sleeper up and down from Dunkeld and Birnam to London fairly regularly - Im going down next week for example - very old stock now, and often problems, The new trains will presumably be better but the old ones have some advantages (bigger seats, more sociable in the restaurant car) 😃 More sociable in the restaurant car . Seems old fashioned . Not suggesting you are just the phrase sadly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott herbertson Posted August 5, 2019 Share Posted August 5, 2019 27 minutes ago, jake said: 😃 More sociable in the restaurant car . Seems old fashioned . Not suggesting you are just the phrase sadly. You’re right on both counts! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted August 6, 2019 Share Posted August 6, 2019 5 hours ago, Sooperstar said: You know he is a train driver yeah? You know about the big jug aye? He said he wasn't, last week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Better call Saul Posted August 6, 2019 Share Posted August 6, 2019 Daft question but I am keen to know about the sleeper! What's the point of boarding a train to London from Edinburgh or even London to penzance getting into a bed when you arrive 5 hours later hardly worth while!! Naw? I get there maybe the odd business chap that has a meeting early in london and doesn't want to fly and there's the tourist that want to use it does is make that much revenue? Just asking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott herbertson Posted August 6, 2019 Share Posted August 6, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Ferris Bueller said: Daft question but I am keen to know about the sleeper! What's the point of boarding a train to London from Edinburgh or even London to penzance getting into a bed when you arrive 5 hours later hardly worth while!! Naw? I get there maybe the odd business chap that has a meeting early in london and doesn't want to fly and there's the tourist that want to use it does is make that much revenue? Just asking I have a senior railcard (yes, I am old fashioned!) The sleeper departs from Dunkeld, 300 yards from my house, at 11pm. Next Wednesday i will be on it with my son, who has a 16-25 railcard. We get off at Euston around 7am Thursday There is a carriage which you can buy tickets for which just has big reclining seats. - It's £33 each for us all the way The alternative for us is during the day, there re no direct trains (except one on a Sunday) and unless you book well in advance you are talking about £80 each, plus changing in Edinburgh So it's cheap and convenient for us. Even better on the way back when the connecting trains from london have a bad habit of missing th eInverness connection You also have to factor in travel during the day basically takes the whole day out of any plans on the downside, I can't claim I actually get much sleep on the sleeper Edited August 6, 2019 by scott herbertson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Boy Named Crow Posted August 6, 2019 Share Posted August 6, 2019 3 hours ago, Ferris Bueller said: Daft question but I am keen to know about the sleeper! What's the point of boarding a train to London from Edinburgh or even London to penzance getting into a bed when you arrive 5 hours later hardly worth while!! Naw? I get there maybe the odd business chap that has a meeting early in london and doesn't want to fly and there's the tourist that want to use it does is make that much revenue? Just asking No idea if the sleeper makes money, but I’ve used a sleeper before when travelling around Europe. It is good when you don’t want to lose a day travelling, added bonus is it’s one night you don’t need to spend in a hostel / hotel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronJambo Posted August 6, 2019 Share Posted August 6, 2019 13 hours ago, Sooperstar said: You know he is a train driver yeah? You know about the big jug aye? I'm train manager/guard. A lot of the training crosses over and we work from the same rulebooks, albeit drivers have more modules. I get the impression robbo drives and if he drives freight trains then I understand his position but if he drives passenger services then I can't agree at all. I'm not that interested in as huge debate over train operations though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Better call Saul Posted August 6, 2019 Share Posted August 6, 2019 10 hours ago, scott herbertson said: I have a senior railcard (yes, I am old fashioned!) The sleeper departs from Dunkeld, 300 yards from my house, at 11pm. Next Wednesday i will be on it with my son, who has a 16-25 railcard. We get off at Euston around 7am Thursday There is a carriage which you can buy tickets for which just has big reclining seats. - It's £33 each for us all the way The alternative for us is during the day, there re no direct trains (except one on a Sunday) and unless you book well in advance you are talking about £80 each, plus changing in Edinburgh So it's cheap and convenient for us. Even better on the way back when the connecting trains from london have a bad habit of missing th eInverness connection You also have to factor in travel during the day basically takes the whole day out of any plans on the downside, I can't claim I actually get much sleep on the sleeper Sounds perfect for the likes you mate sounds relaxed ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted August 12, 2019 Share Posted August 12, 2019 (edited) Human error it would seem. Brake valve was left closed leaving insufficient braking available. Happened when locomotive was attached at Carstairs. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-49318661 These are preliminary findings. Main inquiry will investigate how it happened. Edited August 12, 2019 by Mikey1874 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FWJ Posted August 12, 2019 Author Share Posted August 12, 2019 I know nowt about trains - but does that mean the train didn’t need to use its brakes at all between Carstairs and Edinburgh - it’s downhill all the way, isn’t it? Also I’m a bit surprised there isn’t a warning light or something to say the brakes haven’t been attached / fitted correctly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronJambo Posted August 12, 2019 Share Posted August 12, 2019 1 hour ago, Mikey1874 said: Human error it would seem. Brake valve was left closed leaving insufficient braking available. Happened when locomotive was attached at Carstairs. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-49318661 These are preliminary findings. Main inquiry will investigate how it happened. It's quite insane that the train is even able to leave the platform like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DETTY29 Posted August 12, 2019 Share Posted August 12, 2019 4 minutes ago, IronJambo said: It's quite insane that the train is even able to leave the platform like that. Not from Carstairs it isnt........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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