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Foundation Pledges

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i8hibsh
3 hours ago, been here before said:

 

Dinnae go, not interested, dinnae pledge.

 

But on every thread like a fly on a shit.

 

 

Not too sure i've went with 'not interested'. I'm just not as interested as I used to be.

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To Be Frank
2 minutes ago, Nookie Bear said:

 

Well...you and the Other One did say “all” Supporters Club Chairmen as being gammon. Huge lolz etc

 

You’ve been called out on it so should apologise. 👍🏻

 

I didn’t say anything of the kind. 

 

You should apologise 👍🏻

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Icon of Symmetry
1 minute ago, Nookie Bear said:

 

Well...you and the Other One did say “all” Supporters Club Chairmen as being gammon. Huge lolz etc

 

You’ve been called out on it so should apologise. 👍🏻

 

Nah, I don’t have a clue who or what PJ1 is. Never met the guy in my puff.

 

I do however know exactly the sort of guys that these things traditionally attract, and I wouldn’t want them anywhere near a position of actual power at Tynecastle. Not a chance!

 

In Budge I trust. 😎

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portobellojambo1
Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Nookie Bear said:

 

Well...you and the Other One did say “all” Supporters Club Chairmen as being gammon. Huge lolz etc

 

You’ve been called out on it so should apologise. 👍🏻

 

But he did make it clear he was referring to old duffers, which is why I didn't reply as I'm now only a few months away from age 64, so could slot in to that category :) As for Paranoid, no, it was a decent track in its time, but my preference was/is the likes of Pink Floyd, Lynyrd Skynyrd, Led Zeppelin and the likes.

Edited by portobellojambo1

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Nookie Bear
Just now, To Be Frank said:

 

I didn’t say anything of the kind. 

 

You should apologise 👍🏻

 

To be honest, Frank, I just attribute anything Icon says to you as well. It saves me reading your posts. 

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Nookie Bear
Just now, portobellojambo1 said:

 

But he did make it clear he was referring to old duffers, which is why I didn't reply as I'm now only a few months away from age 64, so could slot in to that category :). As for Paranoid, no, it was a decent track in its time, but my preference was/is the likes of Pink Floyd, Lynyrd Skynyrd, Led Zeppelin and the likes.

 

Can we have you in charge of half time

music?

 

Its cool - was just frustrated that a decent thread was derailed again and I know you can stand up for yourself 👍🏻

 

 

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Icon of Symmetry
1 minute ago, portobellojambo1 said:

 

But he did make it clear he was referring to old duffers, which is why I didn't reply as I'm now only a few months away from age 64, so could slot in to that category :) As for Paranoid, no, it was a decent track in its time, but my preference was/is the likes of Pink Floyd, Lynyrd Skynyrd, Led Zeppelin and the likes.

 

Never had you down as a Garbage fan tbh. 👍

 

For the absolute avoidance of doubt here PJ1, I was not referring to you in my post. I don’t know you and have nothing against you. Whether you fit my description of these sort of guys or not, is purely coincidental.

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Nookie Bear
4 minutes ago, Icon of Symmetry said:

 

Nah, I don’t have a clue who or what PJ1 is. Never met the guy in my puff.

 

I do however know exactly the sort of guys that these things traditionally attract, and I wouldn’t want them anywhere near a position of actual power at Tynecastle. Not a chance!

 

In Budge I trust. 😎

 

So that’s “old” men with views you don’t like added to the Blacklist joining young men with views you don’t like. 

 

We could probably shelve the plans for stadium expansion in your world. 

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Zlatanable
10 hours ago, Icon of Symmetry said:

What should we do with the £1.4m p/a once we pay Ann off next year? Obviously champagne and dancing girls etc, but what do you think the club should use it for going forward. Now that it's really close to being a reality, a decision will need to be made soon.

 

More towards the stand fit-out?

Pay off the £1.7m loan that was taken out?

Land purchases?

Training facility project?

 

What's everyone's thoughts?

I don't want to think about it. 

It could go horribly wrong.

 

 

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Icon of Symmetry
Just now, Nookie Bear said:

 

So that’s “old” men with views you don’t like added to the Blacklist joining young men with views you don’t like. 

 

We could probably shelve the plans for stadium expansion in your world. 

 

:rofl:

 

Give yourself a holiday Nookie. What young guys do I dislike out of interest? Links would be nice. 👍

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To Be Frank
9 minutes ago, Nookie Bear said:

 

To be honest, Frank, I just attribute anything Icon says to you as well. It saves me reading your posts. 

 

Frugally efficient 👍🏻

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portobellojambo1
1 minute ago, Icon of Symmetry said:

 

Never had you down as a Garbage fan tbh. 👍

 

For the absolute avoidance of doubt here PJ1, I was not referring to you in my post. I don’t know you and have nothing against you. Whether you fit my description of these sort of guys or not, is purely coincidental.

 

Your fine, no offence was intended and none was taken. In all honesty I've been keeping away from posting during the close season where possible, but was just sitting here during a period when what is on the TV can be summed up by the words absolute shit and I just thought I'd drop into this thread. It is a messageboard, things are posted, I read them, respond to some and move on.

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Icon of Symmetry
6 minutes ago, portobellojambo1 said:

 

Your fine, no offence was intended and none was taken. In all honesty I've been keeping away from posting during the close season where possible, but was just sitting here during a period when what is on the TV can be summed up by the words absolute shit and I just thought I'd drop into this thread. It is a messageboard, things are posted, I read them, respond to some and move on.

 

Good man. 👍

 

I’m sure you are nothing like the stereotype I posted. I have been around those types my whole Hearts supporting life though, and my Dad was not a million miles away from fitting my description. My point was more that I don’t want a return to the old bowling club self-important Captain Manwering sort of governance that I associate with our club pre-Romanov. In fact I’d be inclined to toss out anyone who put themselves forward. Another Chris Robinson after what we have been through and where we are now would be shattering. 👍

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portobellojambo1
4 minutes ago, Icon of Symmetry said:

 

Good man. 👍

 

I’m sure you are nothing like the stereotype I posted. I have been around those types my whole Hearts supporting life though, and my Dad was not a million miles away from fitting my description. My point was more that I don’t want a return to the old bowling club self-important Captain Manwering sort of governance that I associate with our club pre-Romanov. In fact I’d be inclined to toss out anyone who put themselves forward. Another Chris Robinson after what we have been through and where we are now would be shattering. 👍

 

I have no clue if there would even be any opposition to Ann Budge, assuming of course she does want to continue in a similar role to that she presently holds. If there were to be I'm not sure how such applicants would be identified, I don't know if for example the role will be advertised with applicants responding  to FOH. If such a thing were to happen I'm guessing that FOH would be looking for applicants with a similar sort of business background to Ann. We'll find out in the next few months.

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WheatfieldWarrior
3 hours ago, OTT said:

I think the pledges should be kept firmly separate. 

 

In Scotland we don't make enough money from the commercial side to be able to challenge very well, which in my opinion means we need to look at alternative ways of making the club more money. Now, looking at Killie for inspiration, the hotel is a brilliant idea. It would cost a shit ton, but Edinburgh has the Fringe and during August you can't find a hotel room. Planning permission etc. could be an issue but if we could somehow acquire the old school and do something like that there we'd print cash once the initial costs are overcome. 

 

Basically, what I want to see is Pledge money put toward projects which increase the base from which we can generate money as long term all of that will mean more money to spend on players.

 

Securing the land around Tynecastle is an urgent issue we need to try and get on top of - Pitch, School and potentially the flats directly behind the Gorgie stand all restrict potential growth. It makes sense that money is put aside to try and secure those bits of land if possible.

 

I agree re securing the land - a closed school won't be there forever and we need to secure that before it goes for something else.

 

The business side has to grow and grow for some time yet, that's the only way we can challenge the OF and it won't be tomorrow either.

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Icon of Symmetry
2 minutes ago, portobellojambo1 said:

 

I have no clue if there would even be any opposition to Ann Budge, assuming of course she does want to continue in a similar role to that she presently holds. If there were to be I'm not sure how such applicants would be identified, I don't know if for example the role will be advertised with applicants responding  to FOH. If such a thing were to happen I'm guessing that FOH would be looking for applicants with a similar sort of business background to Ann. We'll find out in the next few months.

 

She said that she would stay on if she was asked. I am certain there would be some opposition though, and they would fit the sort of description I offered earlier. You just need to read some of the opinions on here about Ann and the modernisation she has overseen. It doesn’t sit well with our traditionalists. There’s worse said elsewhere online too, and these types would love to get her out and one of their own in place.

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Saughton Jambo

I’m all for banking it for 3 years and doing nothing with it but saving it up to gain the interest on it. This interest could be used as a contingency for when the club really needs a cash injection. Would be nice to have £5M FOH money in the bank at our disposal.  Maybe there should be a ballot to decide how it’s spent but at the moment, saving it up would see us in a healthy state imo. 

 

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ToqueJambo

Just let the club put it to use. I don't want it being spent routinely on transfers and wages, and if we do wouldn't want it advertised as agents could up their demands if they think we have this fan-funded warchest.

 

Nothing wrong with discreetly using it to bring in someone like Naismith if we get the chance though IMO. Either way, even just using it for infrastructure frees up money to be spent on the first team so indirectly can help the team. Personally, I'd like it to help fund the academy as that's the best way to benefit the club financially and on the pitch long-term.

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Saint Jambo
Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, Saughton Jambo said:

I’m all for banking it for 3 years and doing nothing with it but saving it up to gain the interest on it. This interest could be used as a contingency for when the club really needs a cash injection. Would be nice to have £5M FOH money in the bank at our disposal.  Maybe there should be a ballot to decide how it’s spent but at the moment, saving it up would see us in a healthy state imo. 

 

 

There was a poll. It was when the governance model was voted on at last year's FOH AGM. That poll committed FOH to raising funds and handing it to the club. The agreement is that the money won't be ring fenced and up to the club how to use it, in line with their business plan. FOH can suggest how they would like it to be used but it is only a suggestion. There is a commitment to report how it is spent at the end of each year, although as someone has pointed out that is a bit of smoke and mirrors as the club will be able to pick any spending it likes and say that was the FOH money.

 

The difficulty with this I foresee is that people have very different views on how the funding should be spent. Some say that it should be spent on wages, some say it should not. There is no way to keep both happy (other than winning games which keeps everyone happy) and no democratic decision to fall back on.

 

The other questions about how the board will be formed, etc. are all answered in the documents in the governance section of the FOH website. It is a worry how far away some people's expectations and assumptions are from reality. Its a shame that when some posters tried to highlight and discuss these issues before they were finalised they were invariably shouted down as being negative and boring.

Edited by Saint Jambo

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poultry

Buy hobs and build a tesco.

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Icon of Symmetry
46 minutes ago, poultry said:

Buy hobs and build a tesco.

 

I’d be using a more reliable company if it was me:

 

04500D5B-438B-4CD2-A25C-6957AB9F11FC.png

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Dia Liom

Look forward to reading more about plans for using any funds raised through pledges after we've paid off the debt to Ann. I'm delighted with how things have gone over the years regarding FOH and have no intention of stopping my pledge in future. It'd take some major change of direction, from my perspective, to make me stop or reduce my pledge. Would be happy enough with the things mentioned on the thread. Funding infrastructure projects, maintenance costs, player costs, etc, all sound grand. 

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wavydavy
10 hours ago, Saughton Jambo said:

I’m all for banking it for 3 years and doing nothing with it but saving it up to gain the interest on it. This interest could be used as a contingency for when the club really needs a cash injection. Would be nice to have £5M FOH money in the bank at our disposal.  Maybe there should be a ballot to decide how it’s spent but at the moment, saving it up would see us in a healthy state imo. 

 

 

Maybe we could be a load of bit coins with it? :lol:

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Icon of Symmetry
5 minutes ago, Dia Liom said:

Look forward to reading more about plans for using any funds raised through pledges after we've paid off the debt to Ann. I'm delighted with how things have gone over the years regarding FOH and have no intention of stopping my pledge in future. It'd take some major change of direction, from my perspective, to make me stop or reduce my pledge. Would be happy enough with the things mentioned on the thread. Funding infrastructure projects, maintenance costs, player costs, etc, all sound grand. 

 

It’s a nice problem to have. Certainly better than having to listen to a mediocre specky pop-star trying to convince you that the money you paid in good faith for shares has not been wasted.

 

It’s also good to know that it’s not going to be needed to fund a £51m stadium in the back of beyond. 

 

FoH - How it’s supposed to be done. :wub:

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OTT
19 hours ago, WheatfieldWarrior said:

 

I agree re securing the land - a closed school won't be there forever and we need to secure that before it goes for something else.

 

The business side has to grow and grow for some time yet, that's the only way we can challenge the OF and it won't be tomorrow either.

 

Yeah, Rome wasn't built in a day. Its about getting the right people in. We need more people that have Budges vision and business acumen (although I dare say we've been getting exceptional value for money with Ann). I don't want anybody that is content with keeping things ticking over. We need people who continually want to leave the club in a better place than when they found it. 

 

I wonder how long the distillery will be there too. Companies are always looking for a better deal and I wonder if relocating to the outskirts of Edinburgh would appeal to them? I've got to say, from a totally hearts orientated view, it concerns me that we'll struggle to get planning permission to expand further (due to health and safety risk posed by the distillery) yet, they've been quite happy to keep a nursery right there and build a ****ing school across the road. Tynie is packed for 90 minutes every 2 weeks, the nursery has kids in it every day and the school too. 

 

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TorinoJambo

I personally think the FOH has achieved what it sought to do. Id est - save the club. We 8000 odd contributors can and will continue to pay in but I would like to see a membership scheme of say £10 a month but tripling or more the numbers. I am a fan of Atletico Madrid who have "socios" or members doing just that. It obviously attracts the diehards but it's beauty Is that fans from afar or who cannot get to games can feel involved.

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Smith's right boot

Make the Roseburn 2 their. 

 

Give the away crowd the bottom part, when the OF visit, spit and chuck things at them. 

 

Revenge. 

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Smith's right boot
31 minutes ago, TorinoJambo said:

I personally think the FOH has achieved what it sought to do. Id est - save the club. We 8000 odd contributors can and will continue to pay in but I would like to see a membership scheme of say £10 a month but tripling or more the numbers. I am a fan of Atletico Madrid who have "socios" or members doing just that. It obviously attracts the diehards but it's beauty Is that fans from afar or who cannot get to games can feel involved.

 

 

Why not contribute £10 a month now if you want to contribute £10.

 

 

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ToqueJambo
19 hours ago, Saint Jambo said:

 

There was a poll. It was when the governance model was voted on at last year's FOH AGM. That poll committed FOH to raising funds and handing it to the club. The agreement is that the money won't be ring fenced and up to the club how to use it, in line with their business plan. FOH can suggest how they would like it to be used but it is only a suggestion. There is a commitment to report how it is spent at the end of each year, although as someone has pointed out that is a bit of smoke and mirrors as the club will be able to pick any spending it likes and say that was the FOH money.

 

The difficulty with this I foresee is that people have very different views on how the funding should be spent. Some say that it should be spent on wages, some say it should not. There is no way to keep both happy (other than winning games which keeps everyone happy) and no democratic decision to fall back on.

 

The other questions about how the board will be formed, etc. are all answered in the documents in the governance section of the FOH website. It is a worry how far away some people's expectations and assumptions are from reality. Its a shame that when some posters tried to highlight and discuss these issues before they were finalised they were invariably shouted down as being negative and boring.

 

I thought the debate was good and FoH took on board comments about lapsed pledgers still having a say, etc.

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Smithee
On 18/07/2019 at 13:37, martoon said:

Players.

 

This!

I can't get my head round the idea that putting it towards anything but the playing squad is a good thing. 

Every club that tries something similar to the FoH promises that every penny will go towards the squad, I just can't understand why we're so against this concept. 

 

Keeping the money flowing in is NOT the most important thing, building a successful team is.

 

People already cancel their pledges when they're not happy, we saw that with Cathro.

 

Put it towards the team, let's win stuff!

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Cade

FOH money should be put to club infrastructure.

That then makes more money that can be spent on the playing squad.

Build from solid foundations up.

Don't pish cash away on one or two expensive players that may only be with us for 18 months.

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To Be Frank

I’d like to see it spent on buying the best pro-youth players around. Currently this is something we can’t afford to do.

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Smithee
5 minutes ago, Cade said:

FOH money should be put to club infrastructure.

That then makes more money that can be spent on the playing squad.

Build from solid foundations up.

Don't pish cash away on one or two expensive players that may only be with us for 18 months.

 

Put it towards something else so we can spend more on the playing squad? Why not just spend more on the playing squad? We've got solid foundations now, we've put a bloody fortune into them. We've got access to the best training facilities in Scotland, a stadium to be proud of,  what infrastructure do we need now?

 

I don't know about anyone else but I'm not talking about one or two expensive players, I'm talking about adding a decent percentage to our playing budget and I just can't understand why that isn't desirable for every football fan.

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Smithee
11 minutes ago, To Be Frank said:

I’d like to see it spent on buying the best pro-youth players around. Currently this is something we can’t afford to do.

 

I'd be right up for that, there's something that makes sense to me.

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1971fozzy

Save it. Rainy day and all that.

then buy land around Tynecastle when it’s available. The old school for instance

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Kiwidoug
On 19/07/2019 at 09:23, portobellojambo1 said:

 

But he did make it clear he was referring to old duffers, which is why I didn't reply as I'm now only a few months away from age 64, so could slot in to that category :) As for Paranoid, no, it was a decent track in its time, but my preference was/is the likes of Pink Floyd, Lynyrd Skynyrd, Led Zeppelin and the likes.

I've got great news for you PJ, 70 is the new 40.  I'm a month off 71 and I still think and act like a big kid at times.  I sleep a lot more though and a good hangover lasts for 3 days.  Accordingly  my intake is much more moderate these days but I still give it a lash from time to time.

 

Look at Trumpy.  He may be mental but he's the leader of the free world and he's a good bit older than me.

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1971fozzy
26 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Put it towards something else so we can spend more on the playing squad? Why not just spend more on the playing squad? We've got solid foundations now, we've put a bloody fortune into them. We've got access to the best training facilities in Scotland, a stadium to be proud of,  what infrastructure do we need now?

 

I don't know about anyone else but I'm not talking about one or two expensive players, I'm talking about adding a decent percentage to our playing budget and I just can't understand why that isn't desirable for every football fan.

 

Indirectly it will free up player budget.

however I don’t think our pledges should ever go directly into the recruitment side. Imagine if we bought a Beslija / Martin / Sammon / Osh. and said thanks to the FOH we were able to sign them.  Pledges would drop faster than anything if it was seen as being wasted directly on pish.

look what happened with the SMG money - it bought Gordon Petric, and that’s a perfect example.

i would not be happy for one if it went to that. I intend to pledge for life , but for the clubs future and infrastructure / academy etc

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davemclaren
6 minutes ago, Kiwidoug said:

I've got great news for you PJ, 70 is the new 40.  I'm a month off 71 and I still think and act like a big kid at times.  I sleep a lot more though and a good hangover lasts for 3 days.  Accordingly  my intake is much more moderate these days but I still give it a lash from time to time.

 

Look at Trumpy.  He may be mental but he's the leader of the free world and he's a good bit older than me.

Not as mental though... 😄

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Noah Claypole

The money needs shared around all the projects and occasionally something needs to be given back to the contributers for obvious reasons. 

 

Again, I'll reiterate that if punters think publically puting funds towards players are batshit bonkers and can't see the consequences when it doesn't inevitably work out. 

The pressure on the player alone knowing the circumstance will be enough to scupper it, never mind the unity in the dressing room. 

 

Anyone suggesting monies are put forward directly for players really are not thinking this out properly. 

 

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Smithee
7 minutes ago, 1971fozzy said:

 

Indirectly it will free up player budget.

however I don’t think our pledges should ever go directly into the recruitment side. Imagine if we bought a Beslija / Martin / Sammon / Osh. and said thanks to the FOH we were able to sign them.  Pledges would drop faster than anything if it was seen as being wasted directly on pish.

look what happened with the SMG money - it bought Gordon Petric, and that’s a perfect example.

i would not be happy for one if it went to that. I intend to pledge for life , but for the clubs future and infrastructure / academy etc

 

Then let's not do that, just add the money to the budget. Why the hell not?

 

We're a football club, we've got a great stadium and training facilities, our infrastructure's sound now.

 

I have no problem with the money going towards the academy or youth players, or anywhere really, although I feel like we're maybe getting a bit over obsessed with infrastructure, I just don't think any of the arguments against adding it to the player budget stand up.

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OTT
3 hours ago, Olly Lee's left boot said:

Make the Roseburn 2 their. 

 

Give the away crowd the bottom part, when the OF visit, spit and chuck things at them. 

 

Revenge. 

 

:glorious:

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Geoff Kilpatrick

It's quite simple. Make it working capital for the club. Even use it to pay the non-playing staff so that more money is freed up for expenditure on football.

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Kiwidoug
1 hour ago, davemclaren said:

Not as mental though... 😄

Close run thing.  In football terms it would be decided on penalties.

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Kiwidoug

Who would have thought that a successful, retired lady with a Hearts supporting daughter could have been the catalyst for all this.

 

FoH was critical to her involvement and the outcome is still almost beyond my comprehension.

 

Along with 8,000 fellow Jambos I regard my membership as a badge of honour.  The fundraising which preceded it to stave off liquidation is also beyond comprehension when you look back on it.

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fabienleclerq

For me it needs to be spent on things that will benefit the first team or generates more money. 

 

Things like investing in the youth set up and possibly buying the old school etc and developing it. I don't t want it punted on the woman's team or big hearts etc, for me this will lead to a drop in pledges. 

 

I'm happy to have the woman's team etc but there should be a limit to what we put in if they aren't generating the money to grow organically. And big hearts is great but if people want their cash going there it can go directly.

 

FOH for me was a vehicle to save the club and then after make us improve on the pitch. 

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TorinoJambo
Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Olly Lee's left boot said:

 

 

Why not contribute £10 a month now if you want to contribute £10.

 

 

Did you read what I said ? - "we". That means I already do and have since day one. If you can't see what I'm implying I would suggest not bothering to comment at all. Certainly not sarcastically.

Edited by TorinoJambo

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Nookie Bear
Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, 1971fozzy said:

 

Indirectly it will free up player budget.

however I don’t think our pledges should ever go directly into the recruitment side. Imagine if we bought a Beslija / Martin / Sammon / Osh. and said thanks to the FOH we were able to sign them.  Pledges would drop faster than anything if it was seen as being wasted directly on pish.

look what happened with the SMG money - it bought Gordon Petric, and that’s a perfect example.

i would not be happy for one if it went to that. I intend to pledge for life , but for the clubs future and infrastructure / academy etc

 

But we wouldn’t know exactly where the funds are going as they would be in the general “pot” for player salaries and purchases. We couldn’t fork out on a £1m player every season, for example. 

 

I think pledges woukd drop quicker if they were used for community and infrastructure projects (imo) 

Edited by Nookie Bear

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Disco Dave
On 18/07/2019 at 12:46, Icon of Symmetry said:

What should we do with the £1.4m p/a once we pay Ann off next year? Obviously champagne and dancing girls etc, but what do you think the club should use it for going forward. Now that it's really close to being a reality, a decision will need to be made soon.

 

More towards the stand fit-out?

Pay off the £1.7m loan that was taken out?

Land purchases?

Training facility project?

 

What's everyone's thoughts?

 

I could be wrong but I’m fairly certain Budge said at the last AGM that she was confident they had a plan to be debt free come handover day. It sounded more like a cash flow issue because we were paying out so much for the stand, pitch etc but the money was budgeted for.

 

Longer term, I would like to see at least some of the money going into a rainy day fund so when the roof falls in, we’ve got cash to pay for it and dont need to take on unexpected debts. I would also like to see some money used to buy up promising talent that we would not normally afford/take a punt on with a view to selling on later down the line.

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Borders Jambo
3 hours ago, Kiwidoug said:

Who would have thought that a successful, retired lady with a Hearts supporting daughter could have been the catalyst for all this.

 

FoH was critical to her involvement and the outcome is still almost beyond my comprehension.

 

Along with 8,000 fellow Jambos I regard my membership as a badge of honour.  The fundraising which preceded it to stave off liquidation is also beyond comprehension when you look back on it.

Great post and I feel exactly the same.  

I do have some concerns about how the money will be used (I can still remember Petric arguing with fans in the Wheatfield) but trust that the people involved will make the necessary decisions.  At the same time, I'm confident that the requisite level of scrutiny will also be in place. 

This to my mind is the main legacy of the Budge era that we have the people in charge who get things done with the necessary integrity in place.

 

I think Motherwell also deserve kudos for the scheme they have also put in place which although I don't know much about it, seems to be working well.

There is an interesting article in the Scotsman/News today / yesterday about the Hibs scheme and how they are watching how things unfold with us.  Its written in the usual pandering way by Patullo with hints (my interpretation) that they are waiting for FOH to go pear shaped.  If I was one of them (thank god I'm not) I'd be more concerned about their own situation.  

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XB52
1 hour ago, TorinoJambo said:

Did you read what I said ? - "we". That means I already do and have since day one. If you can't see what I'm implying I would suggest not bothering to comment at all. Certainly not sarcastically.

But what you suggested we could have is exactly what we already have??

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