A potential Save our Hearts 2?

[Colonel Kurtz]

At this precise moment no, but with the exception of 5 years max, out of nearly 40, I never have been.

 

I look forward to next season with optimism under a new manager though.

 

I have seen Salmond at Tynecastle and his deputy,also Mcletchie.

I applaud the ops sentiments,but think he is understimating the apathy.

Good luck to his NYET Romanov campaign ,ive already got the t shirt.

[Colonel Kurtz]

I see David McLetchie at most home games so I propose he is made the poster boy for SoH2.

 

McLetchie says "TAXI FOR ROMANOV!"

 

Mcletchie might say Taxi for Romanov,but check his receipts.

He seems perfect to be in charge of expenses for SOH2 ,him and Lord Dode

[CornhillHearts]

"I may be wrong, but I think Iain Macleod is happy with the way the club's being run". He will not be amused and McLetchie prefers the sellic of the south.

[Nucky Thompson]

This thread is an embarrassment:o Save our Hearts from the man who saved our Hearts:wacko:

[Eggo]

How ridiculous is this drivel getting:confused:

 

 

AND ANOTHER THING,AREN'T SOME OF YOU EMBARRASSED WITH YOURSELVES,ASKING THE ORIGINAL SOH GUYS FOR HELP?

WHEN ON SEVERAL OCCASIONS YOU SLAUGHTERED THEM ON HERE:mad:

 

 

GIVE YOURSELVES A REALITY CHECK:confused:

[Pants Shaton]

This thread is an embarrassment:o Save our Hearts from the man who saved our Hearts:wacko:

 

 

By that logic (and I'm wary of appealing to your logic) Romanov could now do whatever he wants to Hearts - as long as we stay at Tynecastle?

[200milesfromgorgie]

Ah Jambos Kickback - the death of reasonable debate.

[Eggo]

By that logic (and I'm wary of appealing to your logic) Romanov could now do whatever he wants to Hearts - as long as we stay at Tynecastle?

 

 

 

Why dont you stand up and be counted by forming a group to oppose Vlad,you make it sound so easy:rolleyes:

 

 

 

Your the man:)

[Pants Shaton]

Why dont you stand up and be counted by forming a group to oppose Vlad,you make it sound so easy:rolleyes:

 

 

 

Your the man:)

 

You're the man.

 

I've made my view regarding SOH2 quite clear on the first page of this thread.

 

I don't oppose Vladimir Romanov per se; I oppose his interference in footballing matters and consequently our inability to recruit an acceptable football manager.

[Eggo]

You're the man.

 

I've made my view regarding SOH2 quite clear on the first page of this thread.

 

I don't oppose Vladimir Romanov per se; I oppose his interference in footballing matters and consequently our inability to recruit an acceptable football manager.

 

 

 

Me tae:)

[Eggo]

Something has to be done before the club owes ?50....?60...?80.....?100 million and he disappears into the ether

 

 

Get on with it then:p

[PresidentRomanov]

Something has to be done before the club owes ?50....?60...?80.....?100 million and he disappears into the ether

 

But who's the club going to owe the money too?

[Eliteist]

Threw my dosh into the buckets on a regular basis last time.......still don't know where it went.

[Martin_T]

This thread is an embarrassment:o Save our Hearts from the man who saved our Hearts:wacko:

 

Has that given him a mandate to do whatever the feck he likes henceforth?

[Nucky Thompson]

Has that given him a mandate to do whatever the feck he likes henceforth?

No it hasn't. As soon as Tynie gets sold for flats with no plan B I might think you have a point:cool: not because Vlad is getting fecked about in his search for a manager.

[shaun.lawson]

Irrespective of how many Hearts supporters may be happy or unhappy about events, you and other advocates of SoH2 need to get your heads around the following:

 

Romanov is not a British businessman. He does not operate the sort of business practices one usually encounters in "the west". He's got where he is today by being single-minded, autocratic and absolutely sure that his way is the best and only way. He will not be swayed or told what to do by a bunch of people that individually and collectively do not have his experience, wealth or status.

 

So if, at some point, Romanov imperilled the future of the club, what would be your advice? Indeed, would you do anything at all?

[topcat]

And do you think if SOH 2 managed to match SOH's grand total of ?2 million - which they wouldn't - that Romanov would accept that for his share in the club?

 

It's kind of assumed that to mount a takeover you'd need about ?30m to buy the shares and pay off all the debt which would be the complete opposite of the Glazers' take over of Manchester United.

 

This is all hypothetical and conditional on Vlad wanting out, or the other stakeholders in UBIG wanting him to get out but...

 

Given that he paid about three million for it and it's hardly been delivered a great financial performance since then maybe two million isn't that far short of buying a controlling interest.

 

The problem though is that SOH2 would then find itself as the majority shareholder in a club with a large debt to the former parent company that needed servicing. It's essentially the same problem that SOH1 faced. Even if they'd bought out CPR they would still have hadthe same stalemate with HBOS that CPR had failed to resolve.

 

If UBIG did want to sell then if the debt was at a hopeless level then they would have to take a loss and cut it down to a palletable level in order to make the sale. This leads us to the question of how far they could drop it.

 

3 years ago Tynecastle was worth more as a building sites for Flats than it was as a football ground. That is a situation that CPR couldn't resolve. It is a situation that SOH didn't have an easy answer to and as long as it persists we are reliant on somebody with a lot of capital simply preferring to use the asset as a football ground rather than cashing it in with Cala homes.

 

And it is that which would put a floor under the level of debt that newly spun off Hearts would have to inherit. If SOH2 are going to buy the club along with its primary ?20m+ asset then they're presumably going to have to accept about that much in liabilities and they're going to have to find a way of servicing that debt. CPR couldn't, No other bidders appeared three years ago who could.

 

The deflation of the house price bubble might make things easier as the value of the land for non footballing purposes may have dropped (or at least stopped rocketing). Completion of a new stand would certainly make it a lot easier for prospective new owners to make the sums add up. The credit crunch on the other hand would make things trickier

 

A well run supporter-owned but debt-laden Hearts might well manage to prosper and indeed if running a major sports club was as easy as I'm always reading on here success would be assured. I have my doubts on that but one would hope that supporter-owners would be a bit more patient through bad spells as there would presumably be a closer identification with the team.

 

In the mean time UBIG are looking at a ?50m two year construction project and a football club with a turnover of around ?10m pa. Assuming they're still up for this project then for the next Two years Hearts are, financially speaking, mainly a construction project with a football team attached. I can't see them being interested in getting out halfway.

 

If they pull out of the project then all bets are off and anything could happen

 

For my part I'll just sit on my 1000 shares but if anybody is serious about supporter majority ownership then good luck but remember that you're going to need to do more than convince a lot of people on JKB and elsewhere to pledge a few hundred pounds. You're going to need to convince either UBIG or some alternative creditor that you can run the club in such a way that it can service the liabilities that you will inherit.

 

That my be possible but I don't think Martin_t is the man to do it

[PresidentRomanov]

So if, at some point, Romanov imperilled the future of the club, what would be your advice? Indeed, would you do anything at all?

 

I'll answer for him here, the last time the future of the club was under threat, Therapist handed over a cheque for ?2000 to SOH, and attended many meetings, demo's, etc.

 

What did you do Shuan?

[Therapist]

So if, at some point, Romanov imperilled the future of the club, what would be your advice? Indeed, would you do anything at all?

 

See PB's answer.

 

If anyone tries to sell Tynecastle without a guaranteed alternative that is at least no worse, then I'll do something about it.

 

As it is, we're not doing great on the pitch and we've no manager. Big deal. I've experienced tougher times following Heart of Midlothian FC.

[shaun.lawson]

I'll answer for him here, the last time the future of the club was under threat, Therapist handed over a cheque for ?2000 to SOH, and attended many meetings, demo's, etc.

 

What did you do Shuan?

 

No-one here by that name, sorry. I'm grateful for Therapist's answer below, though.

[PresidentRomanov]

No-one here by that name, sorry. I'm grateful for Therapist's answer below, though.

 

Translate: I did nothing, I only spout off on the internet, I prefer Norwich anyway.

[Dirk Diggler]

Gotta love kickback.

 

[shaun.lawson]

Translate: I did nothing, I only spout off on the internet, I prefer Norwich anyway.

 

No, no I don't. Seeing as you don't even have the dignity to address me by my name, I'm not sure why I'm even bothering giving you an answer: it's far more than you deserve. But at the time of SOH, I had both as limited means as now, and something even more important than the future of the club I love to consider: trying to help save the lives of both my mentally ill siblings.

 

Don't you dare come back with some smart arse retort to this, by the way: this was the reality, and I doubt anyone on here would have done differently if they'd been in the same position. As it is, I've always felt guilty about not doing more - and am very prepared to put plenty of time in should the situation demand it now. Indeed, many of those involved with SOH either seem too battle fatigued or disillusioned by the response from other fans at the time to do it all over again now - which may simply mean a new crop of fans have to get their fingers dirty this time around. I, assuredly, will be one of them.

[Mysterion]

can it be that difficult to make hearts a members club like Barca ?

 

seriously ?

 

the model i'm thinking of would be that jambos actually had to have a club membership and the contributions would be paying for membership upfront (eg, for someone young like me 30 years worth).

 

if you could get 10k of Hearts fans to build a fund at say ?50 a month (1month = 1 year)

 

i would consider contributing to that provided it was ran by an independent finance company with assurances that if situations changed for people they could get their money back without penalty.

 

the interest alone over time would pay for the independent admin required.

[Therapist]

which may simply mean a new crop of fans have to get their fingers dirty this time around. I, assuredly, will be one of them.

 

Cue stirring music as Shaun rides to the rescue.

[PresidentRomanov]

No, no I don't. Seeing as you don't even have the dignity to address me by my name, I'm not sure why I'm even bothering giving you an answer: it's far more than you deserve. But at the time of SOH, I had both as limited means as now, and something even more important than the future of the club I love to consider: trying to help save the lives of both my mentally ill siblings.

 

Don't you dare come back with some smart arse retort to this, by the way: this was the reality, and I doubt anyone on here would have done differently if they'd been in the same position. As it is, I've always felt guilty about not doing more - and am very prepared to put plenty of time in should the situation demand it now. Indeed, many of those involved with SOH either seem too battle fatigued or disillusioned by the response from other fans at the time to do it all over again now - which may simply mean a new crop of fans have to get their fingers dirty this time around. I, assuredly, will be one of them.

 

Thanks for confirming you did nothing

 

It does you no favours trying to use personal problems to score points either, I've had plenty of those myself, but they're just that - personal.

[Therapist]

can it be that difficult to make hearts a members club like Barca ?

 

seriously ?

 

the model i'm thinking of would be that jambos actually had to have a club membership and the contributions would be paying for membership upfront (eg, for someone young like me 30 years worth).

 

if you could get 10k of Hearts fans to build a fund at say ?50 a month (1month = 1 year)

 

i would consider contributing to that provided it was ran by an independent finance company with assurances that if situations changed for people they could get their money back without penalty.

 

the interest alone over time would pay for the independent admin required.

 

Scotty, I know you mean well but would I be right in guessing that you don't work in the financial industry?

[shaun.lawson]

Thanks for confirming you did nothing

 

It does you no favours trying to use personal problems to score points either, I've had plenty of those myself, but they're just that - personal.

 

There's no points scoring involved at all. In such circumstances, there was little I could have done: and if I'd tried, I'd probably have had some sort of breakdown. It does you no favours acting as though you know the reasons why some people were unable to be involved with SOH when you plain and simply don't.

[PresidentRomanov]

There's no points scoring involved at all. In such circumstances, there was little I could have done: and if I'd tried, I'd probably have had some sort of breakdown. It does you no favours acting as though you know the reasons why some people were unable to be involved with SOH when you plain and simply don't.

 

I refer you back to post #67

 

Or do you know for a fact that Therapist is in a position to get involved now?

[vladsmad]

This is a pointless debate, we don't have enough fans with enough money to make a difference. Just the same as every other club...does anyone think Man U fans could raise ?600m plus to buy out the Glazers??

 

In any case why would we want to?

 

SOH2 would be no more successful than SOH1 in my opinion. The problem the first time around was the Bank who were unhappy with the debt level and continually pressured CPR et al into cost-cutting. Vlad is the Bank so he doesn't have that problem. There's no external pressure on him.

 

People on here keep moaning about 6 months to find a manager which is a lot of tosh. McGhee was a done deal in late Dec and I don't think anyone could have expected him to keep saying yes for 5 months and then say no at the last minute. To be fair to Vlad he has only been searching for a month or so which is not an unreasonable amount of time to find the right person.

 

I agree with an earlier poster...it is a long term deal that Vlad is in for. Why would he spend a load of money on players now when he can't significantly increase his income until the stand is rebuilt. The 2005 episode was almost like a trial period just to see if he could build a fan-base of 20,000+. I think we will struggle on the park until the stand is rebuilt and I suspect that the money from player sales is going to be used primarily for that purpose over the next 18-24 months. When we have 25,000 capacity we will have a team I reckon.

 

And just before anyone suggests it, I am not a Vlad sheep, just someone who is looking at the situation rationally. And yes I have renewed.

 

Of course he could just be asset stripping and preparing to take the money, close the club down and build the flats that the Hobo's are praying for!!!

[shaun.lawson]

I refer you back to post #67

 

Or do you know for a fact that Therapist is in a position to get involved now?

 

Except that given all he'd said about Romanov being singleminded, autocratic and so on, I asked him what his advice would be if we ended up in a dire predicament again. It sounded like he was saying there was nothing we could do: hence my question, and his perfectly reasonable response.

[JKBMod 7]

Okay folks, can we please stop having a go at each other.

[Zico]

So to summarise, let's no bother doing anything as there's nobody who's publicy revealed they want to buy out Romanov. He doesn't care what we think anyway so let's all stop worrying about it, it'll all come good in the end.

 

And Alex Salmond's a Hobo or something.

 

Great.

[Martin_T]

It's kind of assumed that to mount a takeover you'd need about ?30m to buy the shares and pay off all the debt which would be the complete opposite of the Glazers' take over of Manchester United.

 

This is all hypothetical and conditional on Vlad wanting out, or the other stakeholders in UBIG wanting him to get out but...

 

Given that he paid about three million for it and it's hardly been delivered a great financial performance since then maybe two million isn't that far short of buying a controlling interest.

 

The problem though is that SOH2 would then find itself as the majority shareholder in a club with a large debt to the former parent company that needed servicing. It's essentially the same problem that SOH1 faced. Even if they'd bought out CPR they would still have hadthe same stalemate with HBOS that CPR had failed to resolve.

 

If UBIG did want to sell then if the debt was at a hopeless level then they would have to take a loss and cut it down to a palletable level in order to make the sale. This leads us to the question of how far they could drop it.

 

3 years ago Tynecastle was worth more as a building sites for Flats than it was as a football ground. That is a situation that CPR couldn't resolve. It is a situation that SOH didn't have an easy answer to and as long as it persists we are reliant on somebody with a lot of capital simply preferring to use the asset as a football ground rather than cashing it in with Cala homes.

 

And it is that which would put a floor under the level of debt that newly spun off Hearts would have to inherit. If SOH2 are going to buy the club along with its primary ?20m+ asset then they're presumably going to have to accept about that much in liabilities and they're going to have to find a way of servicing that debt. CPR couldn't, No other bidders appeared three years ago who could.

 

The deflation of the house price bubble might make things easier as the value of the land for non footballing purposes may have dropped (or at least stopped rocketing). Completion of a new stand would certainly make it a lot easier for prospective new owners to make the sums add up. The credit crunch on the other hand would make things trickier

 

A well run supporter-owned but debt-laden Hearts might well manage to prosper and indeed if running a major sports club was as easy as I'm always reading on here success would be assured. I have my doubts on that but one would hope that supporter-owners would be a bit more patient through bad spells as there would presumably be a closer identification with the team.

 

In the mean time UBIG are looking at a ?50m two year construction project and a football club with a turnover of around ?10m pa. Assuming they're still up for this project then for the next Two years Hearts are, financially speaking, mainly a construction project with a football team attached. I can't see them being interested in getting out halfway.

 

If they pull out of the project then all bets are off and anything could happen

 

For my part I'll just sit on my 1000 shares but if anybody is serious about supporter majority ownership then good luck but remember that you're going to need to do more than convince a lot of people on JKB and elsewhere to pledge a few hundred pounds. You're going to need to convince either UBIG or some alternative creditor that you can run the club in such a way that it can service the liabilities that you will inherit.

 

That my be possible but I don't think Martin_t is the man to do it

 

Topcat two questions:

 

A) Where did I say that I was the man to head up SoH2?

Where did I say that SoH2 would be about raising funds and purchasing a majority shareholding?

[Martin_T]

...and just to clarify, I would view any potential new SoH movement as a pressure group, not a vehicle by which supporter ownership of the club could be achieved. In all honesty that probably ceased to be possible by the late 1990's.

[Guest jambomickey]

reading this it's very clear that one thing romanov has been succesfull in is dividing the hearts fans! my own personal opinion is the quicker he gone the better

[iainmac]

I may be wrong, but I think Iain Macleod is happy with the way the club's being run.

 

And Alex Salmond

 

You are wrong - can't speak for AS though.

[Colonel Kurtz]

...and just to clarify, I would view any potential new SoH movement as a pressure group, not a vehicle by which supporter ownership of the club could be achieved. In all honesty that probably ceased to be possible by the late 1990's.

 

The first thing you need to do is come up with another name,SOH is tainted by the way funds and expenses seem to have been handled.

[scott herbertson]

I have always said that what we need to do is to build a fund which can be used when the situation merits it.

 

It is true we wil not be able to buy Hearts (or at least not in its present form)

 

However if we had ?2million and growing I am sure wthere would eb some interest in our views in its future.

 

As it stands neither VR if he was selling, nor an administrator if we go into liquidation, would be interested in ordinary fans' views

[Pants Shaton]

If UBIG did want to sell then if the debt was at a hopeless level then they would have to take a loss and cut it down to a palletable level in order to make the sale. This leads us to the question of how far they could drop it.

 

Given your penchant for corrections:

 

palatable

 

 

If they pull out of the project then all bets are off and anything could happen

 

On a slightly more constructive note; the redevelopment of the new stand is the litmus test for the Romanovs. If it goes ahead we can be reassured of a medium term commitment to the club - if not, we should worry.

[scott herbertson]

Given your penchant for corrections:

 

palatable

 

 

Surely he meant that Ubig would sell Tynecastle in small enough chunks to be removed on pallets?

[Mysterion]

Scotty, I know you mean well but would I be right in guessing that you don't work in the financial industry?

 

aye yer right.

 

but why not. ok figures aren't right, but there must be a model that would fit requirements.

[Toxteth O'Grady]

 

People on here keep moaning about 6 months to find a manager which is a lot of tosh. McGhee was a done deal in late Dec and I don't think anyone could have expected him to keep saying yes for 5 months and then say no at the last minute. To be fair to Vlad he has only been searching for a month or so which is not an unreasonable amount of time to find the right person.QUOTE]

 

Where is he now?

 

At this stage in the gamea month or so is unreasonable, if there was no guarenteed plan B (and there wasn't) those responsible should be punted.

 

If McGhee had come to Hearts would Motherwell have had a new manager by now?

 

I think they would.

[Billy the Jambo]

Save Hearts from what exactly? It looks more like Hearts need to be saved from the noisy minority of pitch-fork merchants who are constantly deluding themselves that there is someone waiting in the wings with ?50m (?30m odds to cover existing liabilities and ?10m or so to take the club forward).

 

I think people need to get over their xenophobia and realise that Romanov/UBIG are in this for the long term, as it is only in the long term that they will see any returns from their initial investments. Romanov appointed a good quality manager 3 years ago, he will sooner or later get the right man again and I don't see any reason for assuming that the same mistakes will be made again. Romanov/UBIG have too much money at stake for any more disasterous seasons.

 

It is the long term viability of our club that is important. Not the egos of a few immature hot-heads who are more concerned with the comments from hibs supporting workmates than they are with the future of our club.

 

There are many easier ways of making money than investing in a football club, if some of you people are daft enough to cough up some dosh in the hope of finding someone wealthy and stupid enough to invest in an SPL club with 9,000 season ticket holders, well on you go!

How the feck you keep on defending the mad one is beyond me . He has ruined this club and will continue to do so .Maybe you should take over from Charlie Mann as the mad ones PR thats if you can take your tongue or another part of your anatomy out of his arse long enough for you to spin the lies he has told the fans over the past 3 years

[Nookie Bear]

Personally I think any idea that involves raising cash is a non-starter as the funds are simply not there amongst the majority of our supporters.

 

The way I see it panning out is that, if we do not get things sorted by the time of the Motherwell game, an unofficial protest will develop very quickly from those inside the ground and will essentially involve many folk turning ugly in the ground and behind the stand.

 

Vlad does tend to listen when matters get out of hand and our only hope is to force his hand.

 

I would also expect to see many of the folk who did not renew joining in as you don't force change from the sofa.

[Glamorgan Jambo]

Personally I think any idea that involves raising cash is a non-starter as the funds are simply not there amongst the majority of our supporters.

 

 

 

Totally agree with you re the money.

 

before setting out on any campaign I think those that are involved need to recognise that the most they'll achieve is an effective opposition to the existing regime.. not a solution after the regime has gone. Personally I think that's a very realisable ambition and has been fairly successful over the past 30 years in turning up the heat on the board room incumbents to the point that they're usually gone within 12 - 24 months of the pressure being applied.

 

To me there appears to be a lot of frustration and disappointment amongst many who were at the core of SOH last time whenever anyone brings up the topic of future protest. I can understand their feelings and its up to them what they do in the future but I think recognising that SOH2 or whatever is called will be no more than an opposition/protest movement may lead to less recriminations and negative vibes after the dust settles.

 

I do believe there will be an out/alternative for Vlad and I do believe that the heat is being turned up on him by his UBIG colleagues (and lets take the publicly declared ownership of UBIG with a pinch of salt). I think that a bit of extra pressure if the January 1 statement is not delivered on in the way Charlie Mann intended us to understand it is highly warranted.

[shaun.lawson]

Totally agree with you re the money.

 

before setting out on any campaign I think those that are involved need to recognise that the most they'll achieve is an effective opposition to the existing regime.. not a solution after the regime has gone. Personally I think that's a very realisable ambition and has been fairly successful over the past 30 years in turning up the heat on the board room incumbents to the point that they're usually gone within 12 - 24 months of the pressure being applied.

 

To me there appears to be a lot of frustration and disappointment amongst many who were at the core of SOH last time whenever anyone brings up the topic of future protest. I can understand their feelings and its up to them what they do in the future but I think recognising that SOH2 or whatever is called will be no more than an opposition/protest movement may lead to less recriminations and negative vibes after the dust settles.

 

I do believe there will be an out/alternative for Vlad and I do believe that the heat is being turned up on him by his UBIG colleagues (and lets take the publicly declared ownership of UBIG with a pinch of salt). I think that a bit of extra pressure if the January 1 statement is not delivered on in the way Charlie Mann intended us to understand it is highly warranted.

 

I think that's exactly the point. Whenever we have these debates on here, people naturally ask what any campaign would be seeking to do, and as soon as we hit the obvious problem of money, shrug their shoulders and largely give up. But while it's clearly daft to think anyone could raise enough to buy Romanov out, what we should be looking to do is somehow unite all the different fans' groups under one umbrella (easier said than done, but it plainly has to happen) form a pressure group called 'Hearts For Change' (or something hopefully more catchy), protest, boycott, work with the press and so on in putting the heat on.

 

The more effectively we were able to publicise this, and the more figures connected with the club were prepared to come on board (for example, Donald Ford, John Colquhoun, Gary Mackay, George Foulkes, Dave Mackay, Drew Busby, possibly even someone like Paul Hartley, Craig Gordon, Sandy Clark or Jim Jefferies), the more the pressure could steadily build on Romanov.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

If we're talking about a pressure group, fine. However, we need to clarify outcomes if the pressure did actually achieve results. Would the group "disband" in response or would it remain as a kind of "consumer watchdog"?

 

Either way, I think some political pressure should be brought in to bear as opposed to simply using fan pressure. Even fat Eck might find his voice. After all, if he can hand in petitions on behalf of h**s to maintain celebrity support, he would surely show some interest in his own team.