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How Would You Vote in IndyRef2?

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Highlander
13 hours ago, portobellojambo1 said:

Voted no last time, and would vote no again. However, unlike the OP I don't think there will be a second referendum any time soon.

 

Although I am not suggesting I would necessarily be in favour of another one, there are reasons I suspect there will be a rerun... and soon.

Reasons for another referendum:

 

Firstly, I think the political, economic and social fabric of this nation has been unalterably transformed in ways the No side could not have perceived in 2014 and, for that reason, there are a number of high profile figures who I know would like to cast their vote in a different manner in future. Secondly, the Scottish Parliament voted en masse  in 2017 to progress with another referendum. Thirdly, the SNP will be concerned they do not secure another majority at the next Scottish Election in 2021 and will feel duty-bound to offer the public a choice before they may no longer be able to and, finally, if Mrs May was to continue batting this into the long ground, it will play into the ongoing pro-independence narrative that there is a democratic deficit by remaining part of the United Kingdom.

 

Reasons against another referendum:

 

Firstly, it was not absolutely clear in their 2016 manifesto. This will always be a sticking point. If you are pro-independence party, at least be honest about your support for independence. Secondly, there does not appear to be a significant public appetite for another referendum and, not that it should matter, but there does not appear to be any indication that the result would be any different. 

 

13 hours ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

Smart, don't admit electoral fraud online ;)

 

The OP should have done a poll, no now yes, yes now no etc. Interesting topic though all the polls since suggest overall, nothing has changed % wise. 

 

No, if it is a poll you want, take your pick: YouGov, Survation, Opinium, BMG, Deltapoll etc. or better yet, start a new thread. What none of the pollsters offer is dialogue on the subject, whereas this forum, by contrast, offers exactly that. The reason for this thread is because I am genuinely interested in what my fellow cohort of Hearts fans think on the issue. 

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frankblack
3 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

I can't get my head round why you'd base your independence decision on how you feel about certain individuals in certain parties - the concept of independence isn't linked to a party or person. I also find it hard to understand why anyone would honestly be more offended by hypocrisy in the ruling party at holyrood than the tsunami of filth that is the Westminster machine. 

 

To be honest I struggle to identify with many politicians in Holyrood or Westminster, none of whom show themselves to be particularly principled and trustworthy.

 

I just thought we got off lightly after the last Indy vote, where it showed the economic white papers produced by the SNP on how our economy would thrive from Oil money.  The price of oil then collapses and we would have been in deep sh...

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jack D and coke

Imagine a Britain where the parliament was in Edinburgh and we took the revenue from the city of London or any other of England’s resources and built enormous infrastructure projects with the money up here and told them we actually pump money up their arse and that they should be grateful we give them anything at all cos we’ve actually fiddled the books to make it look like they get more. 

Imagine a Britain where SNP politicians went down there, where they’d be run out of the place, and tell them they can have another EU referendum in say 20 years or whenever they decide. 

Its utterly laughable stuff :lol: 

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southcap
13 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Imagine a Britain where the parliament was in Edinburgh and we took the revenue from the city of London or any other of England’s resources and built enormous infrastructure projects with the money up here and told them we actually pump money up their arse and that they should be grateful we give them anything at all cos we’ve actually fiddled the books to make it look like they get more. 

Imagine a Britain where SNP politicians went down there, where they’d be run out of the place, and tell them they can have another EU referendum in say 20 years or whenever they decide. 

Its utterly laughable stuff :lol: 

Uncle Tom's know no difference.

 

I almost pity them.

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Smithee
17 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

To be honest I struggle to identify with many politicians in Holyrood or Westminster, none of whom show themselves to be particularly principled and trustworthy.

 

I just thought we got off lightly after the last Indy vote, where it showed the economic white papers produced by the SNP on how our economy would thrive from Oil money.  The price of oil then collapses and we would have been in deep sh...

I do understand that, although really what is deep shit? Years of enforced austerity? A corrupt and inept government that doesn't care? 

 

The SNP's white paper is just their idea of how it might work, it would be up to us as a nation to find the consensus on how it would actually work. At the end of the day, no one can accurately predict what will happen after independence but that's true of the UK on the same time scale too, so I don't see how it's an argument against one arrangement and not  the other.

The uk runs at a deficit, it regularly makes ridiculous projections that are nowhere near the truth and no one bats an eyelid, but if there's a hint that Scotland might not have every detail worked, that one's a terrible arrangement - it seems to me that independence is being held to a massively different standard than the status quo.

 

Not a dig at you by the way frank, I like you as a poster, I just can't make sense of where you're coming from. 

Edited by Smithee

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frankblack
5 minutes ago, Smithee said:

I do understand that, although really what is deep shit? Years of enforced austerity? A corrupt and inept government that doesn't care? 

 

The SNP's white paper is just their idea of how it might work, it would be up to us as a nation to find the consensus on how it would actually work. At the end of the day, no one can accurately predict what will happen after independence but that's true of the UK on the same time scale too, so I don't see how it's an argument against one arrangement and not  the other.

The uk runs at a deficit, it regularly makes ridiculous projections that are nowhere near the truth and no one bats an eyelid, but if there's a hint that Scotland might not have every detail worked, that one's a terrible arrangement - it seems to me that independence is being held to a massively different standard than the status quo.

 

Not a dig at you by the way frank, I like you as a poster, I just can't make sense of where you're coming from. 

 

There is running at a deficit and telling outright porkies like the SNP's white paper in order to sell Independence.  I do realise the other side did that with Brexit too, which goes back to my earlier point about trustworthyness.

 

I think Independence is a far bigger risk than Brexit is with Scotland remaining in the UK.

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jack D and coke
3 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

There is running at a deficit and telling outright porkies like the SNP's white paper in order to sell Independence.  I do realise the other side did that with Brexit too, which goes back to my earlier point about trustworthyness.

 

I think Independence is a far bigger risk than Brexit is with Scotland remaining in the UK.

We don’t know what the actual deficit is. It’s not an argument against independence anyway. 

Do you think this has maybe been engineered this way? Why would England prop up Scotland when they haven’t propped up a single nation in its history? 

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Smithee
1 minute ago, frankblack said:

 

There is running at a deficit and telling outright porkies like the SNP's white paper in order to sell Independence.  I do realise the other side did that with Brexit too, which goes back to my earlier point about trustworthyness.

 

I think Independence is a far bigger risk than Brexit is with Scotland remaining in the UK.

I'd say turn on the snp then, turning on independence because of that doesn't make sense to me.

 

However, I think you hit the nail on the head for many with the second bit - people just think independence is too risky, they're not confident we'd make a go of it. I'd say "how could we do worse than those arseholes at Westminster?" , but really, I get it - fear of the unknown is the biggest enemy of the independence movement I think. 

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Dawnrazor

This could do with a poll for interest sake. 

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Highlander
4 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

This could do with a poll for interest sake. 

 

:facepalm:

 

Read my post at the top of this page. 

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AlphonseCapone
49 minutes ago, Highlander said:

 

Although I am not suggesting I would necessarily be in favour of another one, there are reasons I suspect there will be a rerun... and soon.

Reasons for another referendum:

 

Firstly, I think the political, economic and social fabric of this nation has been unalterably transformed in ways the No side could not have perceived in 2014 and, for that reason, there are a number of high profile figures who I know would like to cast their vote in a different manner in future. Secondly, the Scottish Parliament voted en masse  in 2017 to progress with another referendum. Thirdly, the SNP will be concerned they do not secure another majority at the next Scottish Election in 2021 and will feel duty-bound to offer the public a choice before they may no longer be able to and, finally, if Mrs May was to continue batting this into the long ground, it will play into the ongoing pro-independence narrative that there is a democratic deficit by remaining part of the United Kingdom.

 

Reasons against another referendum:

 

Firstly, it was not absolutely clear in their 2016 manifesto. This will always be a sticking point. If you are pro-independence party, at least be honest about your support for independence. Secondly, there does not appear to be a significant public appetite for another referendum and, not that it should matter, but there does not appear to be any indication that the result would be any different. 

 

 

No, if it is a poll you want, take your pick: YouGov, Survation, Opinium, BMG, Deltapoll etc. or better yet, start a new thread. What none of the pollsters offer is dialogue on the subject, whereas this forum, by contrast, offers exactly that. The reason for this thread is because I am genuinely interested in what my fellow cohort of Hearts fans think on the issue. 

 

Could easily have had both but it's your thread. Only a suggestion mate. 

 

Also none of those polls ask the question you have, they are simple yes, no. 

Edited by AlphonseCapone

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Dawnrazor
10 minutes ago, Highlander said:

 

:facepalm:

 

Read my post at the top of this page. 

And? 

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Smithee
12 minutes ago, Highlander said:

 

:facepalm:

 

Read my post at the top of this page. 

No need for the facepalm, he disagrees with you is all. 

 

18 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

This could do with a poll for interest sake. 

Looks like you'll need to start another thread, there's to be no polls here!

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AlphonseCapone
4 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

And? 

 

He's pretty touchy about it tbh.

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Dawnrazor
10 minutes ago, Smithee said:

No need for the facepalm, he disagrees with you is all. 

 

Looks like you'll need to start another thread, there's to be no polls here!

? Aye, it seems like "someone's sleepy"! 

I just thought it would let people keep up with the numbers of people changing minds or not as the case maybe, I'm sure a few questions could be in the list of options. 

I'll not keep Highlander from his Farley's Rusks, Cbb's and afternoon nap any longer! 

Edited by Dawnrazor

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Dawnrazor
6 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

He's pretty touchy about it tbh.

? Yep, picked up on that ??

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Smithee
Just now, Dawnrazor said:

? Aye, it seems like "someone's sleepy"! 

I just thought it would let people keep up with the numbers of people changing minds or not as the case maybe, I'm a few questions could be in the list of options. 

I'll keep Highlander from his Farley's Rusks, Cbb's and afternoon nap any longer! 

I agree, a well thought out list of options would give an interesting insight

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Roxy Hearts
1 hour ago, frankblack said:

 

 

I have tried to vote them out ever since the last Indy referendum.  Since Sturgeon got in she has been an absolute embarrassment for the country, acting like she is an international leader traveling around Europe trying to sabotage Brexit when in fact she is a glorified councilor with a god complex.

 

I did vote SNP up until the Indy referendum, when their figures on the economy were utter fiction, and their stance on wrecking the democratic will of the people has lost my vote.  The SNP's stance on Independence is that if they lose a referendum they want another one to get the "right" vote.  However, they don't respect the Brexit referendum result and are hypocrites.

 

Voting Independence with this mob would put Scotland back to the stone age.

 

Jardine and Cole-Hamilton a couple of absolute sponging roasters of the highest, highest order. Sturgeon is way ahead in terms of political nous and understanding. Can't stand the talk Scotland down brigade at all levels.

 

I wish no voters could see beyond the SNP and media state propaganda. 

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Praha06

YES.

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Cruyff Turn
3 hours ago, JamboX2 said:

 

I think this is massively wrong. I think the SNP is more likely to splinter after an election or two - I'd bet on another 2 terms of the SNP in office. But once they start making hard choices - which they will - I think they'll splinter. The other parties won't change their stripes on politics but would be forced to on the constitution. 

 

And I agree with Jack. Within two terms I think we'd have a Tory government doing what Thatcher didn't manage to do in Scotland thanks to strong local government in the 1980s. 

 

And it is in part about politics and parties as Scotland isn't a person or a homogenous entity. It's a very fractured and broad place which will vote different ways in different parts once the SNP are diminished and regional concerns rightly assert themselves. What good voting for Glasgow socialists if you're an Aberdeen farmer or for Edinburgh Liberals if you're a Shetland islander. So the politics of it is important.

It’s not massively wrong at all. The current group of Tories are anti-Scottish neo Liberalist British Nationalists. There is no danger in a million years that people in a post Indy Scotland would vote for a crowd which includes characters like Murdo Fraser, 5th columnist David Mundell and Ruth the mooth Davidson. :rofl:

 

They have spent the last few decades campaigning against Devolution, they refused to sign the Scottish bill of Rights in 1989, campaigned against further powers, home rule, Independence, against Scottish Interests on the EU referendum. 

That lot would become a DUP like pro Unionist party/ interest group in an Indy Scotland without a shadow of a doubt based on their vision of former imperialist glories, religious conservatism and laissez-faire free market principles, so the basically the same as they are at the moment. 

 

Scotland will never ever vote for a majority Tory Government. Not now, not in the future. The majority in this Country are left of centre and that will not change especially when you consider there are 560,000 public sector workers in Scotland.

 

The closest to that might be perhaps a New Labour type Government which would be much more preferable than being ruled by a group of actual Tories in another Country for the rest of eternity. Labour are already beginning to divide into two parties anyway.

 

Secondly, your point on Scotland joining the EU post Indy.

 

There would have to be a constitution drawn up, a general election called post Independence and then a referendum would have to be passed through parliament. A debate would have to be had on whether we join the EU, the ETA or not at all and then a vote. The same goes for the Monarchy.

 

This nonsense that the SNP would rule on after Independence is exactly that, a load of nonsense. 

 

The people that would negotiate Scotland leaving the Union would be a bipartisan group lead by business people, lawyers and civil servants. It couldn’t and wouldn’t be negotiated by one particular party. 

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JimKongUno

voted yes last time . will be voting no next time

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scottish_chicP

Voted yes the first time. Would vote yes again.

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Dawnrazor
3 minutes ago, JimKongUno said:

voted yes last time . will be voting no next time

Why? 

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ri Alban
39 minutes ago, Smithee said:

No need for the facepalm, he disagrees with you is all. 

 

Looks like you'll need to start another thread, there's to be no polls here!

Is that not the Brexit thread. 

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frankblack

The next Holyrood election is going to be interesting.

 

I can still see the SNP winning it but without the outright majority even with the help of the Greens.  That would force Indy 2 off the table for the next parliamentary term.

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Dusk_Till_Dawn

I don't see Indy Ref 2 coming round any time soon and if I'm being honest, I doubt the country has the energy for another bitter scrap so soon. 

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Highlander

Is there anyone for whom Brexit has been a game-changer in terms of swinging them from No to Yes, or Yes to No?

 

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Boris
8 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

I don't see Indy Ref 2 coming round any time soon and if I'm being honest, I doubt the country has the energy for another bitter scrap so soon

 

It doesn't have to be bitter.

 

Sadly though, it probably would be.

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Roxy Hearts
3 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

It doesn't have to be bitter.

 

Sadly though, it probably would be.

Unionists can't help themselves. Goaded by the media. 

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Dawnrazor
2 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

Unionists can't help themselves. Goaded by the media. 

I think the "Yes" voters are equally culpable in similar numbers. 

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coconut doug
9 hours ago, bobsharp said:

Ive not until tonight engaged in the Independence votes. I remember when before I left the country there was a strong Scottish Nationalist movement for independence.  They promised that with oil and whiskey  revenues we would live tax free, and like some of the Middle East oil countrys even get free housing. What are the benefits of a seperation vote yes this time.

I think the main " for" people were Wendy Wood and Nicholas Fairbairn.

You are mistaken i think. Fairbairn was a Tory paedophile and stalwart of the Scottish legal profession. Big mates with Alan Clarke another amoral Tory MP accused of Paedophilia.

 

One benefit to ponder might be the opportunity to make Scotland a place where the indigenous population don't see emigration as the best way to secure their future.

 

 

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OmiyaHearts

Yes, again.

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JamboX2
33 minutes ago, frankblack said:

The next Holyrood election is going to be interesting.

 

I can still see the SNP winning it but without the outright majority even with the help of the Greens.  That would force Indy 2 off the table for the next parliamentary term.

 

SNP-Lab is my guess on the next administration. I can see Tory gains at the SNP's expense in Perthshire and the northern coasts as per 2017. That will play the Greens out and Labour in. 

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SwindonJambo
17 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

 

One benefit to ponder might be the opportunity to make Scotland a place where the indigenous population don't see emigration as the best way to secure their future.

 

 

That would be good. How would you go about achieving that? It would reverse a trend of several centuries.

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redjambo
4 hours ago, Lord BJ said:

I voted no last time but would probably be a soft yes ig a vote tomorrow. In reality I’ll base my information on that available at the time.

 

My vote would be based on a belief that it’s better being part of Europe than U.K.

 

However, the yes movement need to put better arguments forward.

 

I’ll be honest argument like it can’t be any worse than Westminster poor, it could quite easily be worse than Westminster look around the world you’ll be amazed how many governments are!!! Whilst in reality Westminster is just effective as the party government of the day.

 

I also don’t feel any more Scottish than I do British or European, it’s just a label for someone to tag me by. So flag waving arguments do nothing for me.

 

The arguments I felt were pretty poor last time around imho.

 

In reality it would be the likelihood of being part of Europe which would make me flip.

 

Agree with this, particularly the part in bold.

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Smithee
36 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

Unionists can't help themselves. Goaded by the media. 

 

33 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

I think the "Yes" voters are equally culpable in similar numbers. 

 

As always, there are arseholes on all sides!

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redjambo
31 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

Unionists can't help themselves. Goaded by the media. 

 

I expressed this at the time but it was Nationalist opinions like this that cemented my "No" vote in the referendum. The idea that many Nationalists put forward that those who thought it would be better to stay in the UK were "afraid" and "influenced by the press", just scared sheep who couldn't think for themselves. How fecking disrespectful of someone else's opinions can you get?

 

Argue the facts, the economics, the politics. Don't slag off the people who disagree with you, because the only thing that is going to do is to entrench them in the opinions that they hold.

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Dusk_Till_Dawn
41 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

It doesn't have to be bitter.

 

Sadly though, it probably would be.

 

Neither side can keep it civil because neither side can accept the idea of the outcome they don't want. The last referendum was horrendous, let's be honest.

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redjambo
1 hour ago, coconut doug said:

 

Yes they were.  Without the oaps votes No would have lost.  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-34283948

 

OAPs count too. And for those thinking that a future vote would automatically succeed for the Yes vote because the OAPs who voted No will have died off, remember that people tend to get more conservative as they get older (perhaps it's a "better the devil that you know rather than the one you don't" attitude) - there is always an ongoing shift in people's political opinions with age.

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Boris
3 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

 

Neither side can keep it civil because neither side can accept the idea of the outcome they don't want. The last referendum was horrendous, let's be honest.

 

Zealots are never particularly friendly when you disagree with them.

 

I voted yes, still would, however during the last ref I did question something online somewhere.  A genuine question/point of view.  The replies were scary, despite all supposed to be on the "same" side.

 

More than happy for the UJ waving, George Square Sturmabteilung to be shown no mercy though.  They are simply vermin, regardless of the debate. 

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coconut doug
4 hours ago, JamboX2 said:

 

2 points here:

 

1. Why will the Yes movement suddenly be open minded to parties and leaders they have shunned for so long? Hear this often repeated. But if you don't like Davidson now why will that change? 

 

 The Yes movement (SNP and Greens at least) is open minded and has sought progressive alliances with other parties to mitigate against the worst effects of Tory government and Brexit. Who have they shunned? This isn't about Davidson or any other so-called personality, it's about the future of our country.

 

The Labour Party has rejected all of these overtures including those made by Plaid preferring instead to form alliances with the Tories in councils in Scotland and voting with the Tories in Westminster. They also conspire with the Tories to undermine popular legislation in Scotland like the OBFA and are currently trying to derail the plans for improving Scottish Education e.g. Primary one National assessments. There's is a scorched earth policy against Scotland and i believe they are following a similar policy now regaqrding Brexit. They would much rather see their opponents fail than contribute to the overall wellbeing of the country.

 

 The following links are primarily for the benefit of X2   https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/may/28/nicola-sturgeon-snp-support-progressive-alliance-in-hung-parliament

 

 https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/labour-arrogant-to-reject-alliance-3899jzngs3j

 

http://www.stroudnewsandjournal.co.uk/news/floods/15247731.Labour_rejects_idea_of_progressive_alliance_with_Greens_in_Gloucestershire/

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/19/greens-urge-labour-and-lib-dems-to-form-electoral-pact-to-defeat-tories

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/may/17/labour-suspends-aberdeen-councillors-over-coalition-with-tories

 

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/tories-may-form-labour-coalition-to-oust-snp-from-holyrood-1-4452436

 

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2018/03/emily-thornberry-labour-will-probably-vote-conservatives-brexit-deal

 

https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/labour-mps-brexit-customs-union-rebels/

 

I will most likely vote Yes at the next referendum

 

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JamboX2
3 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Zealots are never particularly friendly when you disagree with them.

 

I voted yes, still would, however during the last ref I did question something online somewhere.  A genuine question/point of view.  The replies were scary, despite all supposed to be on the "same" side.

 

More than happy for the UJ waving, George Square Sturmabteilung to be shown no mercy though.  They are simply vermin, regardless of the debate. 

 

The current political climate is toxic. I can see why some politicians have walked on all sides and one or two who I know could've stood haven't. It's an awful situation.

 

I do think, however, that should Yes win again a lot of the No's would get on with life. They'll be highly critical of the SNP handling negotiations if it goes badly but I can't see it resulting in a pro-unionist agenda which would campaign for rejoining the UK. The will to do it wouldn't exist.

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Marvin

Reading through the replies. I was not legible 1st time and would have voted No If legible this time ironically I would vote Yes. 

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AlphonseCapone
45 minutes ago, Highlander said:

Is there anyone for whom Brexit has been a game-changer in terms of swinging them from No to Yes, or Yes to No?

 

 

I was a Yes last time and I think I'd still be a Yes this time but probably softer or uncertain if being in the EU and retaining the Monarchy are assumed to be givens. I want independence to have more of a say in my country so I'd find it harder to vote for it with two important issues for me already decided on my behalf. 

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coconut doug
6 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

OAPs count too. And for those thinking that a future vote would automatically succeed for the Yes vote because the OAPs who voted No will have died off, remember that people tend to get more conservative as they get older (perhaps it's a "better the devil that you know rather than the one you don't" attitude) - there is always an ongoing shift in people's political opinions with age.

I agree with the sentiment and realise that this is where we are now but what might also be relevant is the proportion of older people in Scotland is changing. It is increasing now but when the baby boomer bulge has gone the demographics and fiscal priorities will be very different.

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Roxy Hearts
34 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

 

As always, there are arseholes on all sides!

So there was full support for independence in the media? If the majority of the media supported it we would have it and that is a fact. 

Edited by Roxy Hearts

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Roxy Hearts
30 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

I expressed this at the time but it was Nationalist opinions like this that cemented my "No" vote in the referendum. The idea that many Nationalists put forward that those who thought it would be better to stay in the UK were "afraid" and "influenced by the press", just scared sheep who couldn't think for themselves. How fecking disrespectful of someone else's opinions can you get?

 

Argue the facts, the economics, the politics. Don't slag off the people who disagree with you, because the only thing that is going to do is to entrench them in the opinions that they hold.

The media did influence the result, surely you agree. Although I agree the narrative was too isolated on the Yes side as was driven by the SNP but that's how the media wanted it. 

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pablo

 

 

It's quite difficult to try to imagine a solution to the constitutional question that is going to work. Partition maybe?

 

 

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