How Would You Vote in IndyRef2?

[Space Mackerel]

Sevco on the TV and one post from Thunderstruck around half time.

 

Im gonna join some dots. ?️‍♂️

[Thunderstruck]

17 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

Sevco on the TV and one post from Thunderstruck around half time.

 

Im gonna join some dots. ?️‍♂️

 

I’m amused at the thought of you being able to join dots without the aid of a classroom assistant. 

 

If you must know, I was watching The One Show - Rowan Atkinson and Ben Miller promoting the new Johnny English movie. 

 

Anyway, must go as Masterchef has started and I need to get recipe ideas for the kitchen staff. 

 

 

 

[Space Mackerel]

16 minutes ago, Thunderstruck said:

 

I’m amused at the thought of you being able to join dots without the aid of a classroom assistant. 

 

If you must know, I was watching The One Show - Rowan Atkinson and Ben Miller promoting the new Johnny English movie. 

 

Anyway, must go as Masterchef has started and I need to get recipe ideas for the kitchen staff. 

 

 

 

 

 

Odds on its the gig economy for them eh? Poor souls. 

[Roxy Hearts]

1 hour ago, Thunderstruck said:

 

As I said, ask the guys working there. I have. 

 

 

Could be demographics, I mean Govan and rangers = ? SNP would get blame regardless. I've heard many from that persuasion and they blame Nicola Sturgeon for everything. Never comment on the monumental screw ups by UK gov. 

[JamboX2]

5 hours ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

Based on what? 

 

The fact every English politician of note is demanding the mayors and regions get more power. 

 

Osbourne today called for the northern regions to get greater powers.

Corbyn's Labour wants to restore regional authorities and further devolve services out of London.

The Liberals want it.

The Mayors want it.

Educated fleas want it.

 

Weekly the Standard calls for it to London. 

 

It's stalled because of Brexit. One big constitutional headache at a time please.

[JamboX2]

4 hours ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

To have full Federalism you are going to have to have a full referendum involving all 4 nations within the current UK. This nonsense about it slowly slipping into place is complete hogwash. It's total wishful thinking on your behalf to preserve the Union.  I have no idea where you get your ideas from. That dug food salesman on Twitter?

 

Reading books on politics, newspapers, journals and research papers. You still reading the Reverand of Bath?

 

You do not need a referendum to do this. We live in a representative democracy. The Tories under Cameron imposed it as he believed in devolving power to communities. I think the course is set.

 

Regionalism is where it's going in England. Big regions - populations bigger than Scotland - taking on more and more power to run issues in their areas with common English frameworks. Frankly it's revitalising to see a debate on how to serve different areas here.

 

A federal UK won't be one parliament for England but multiple centres of power within England. Which is good as it will balance the union into smaller sets. It's for the English to decide how they organise their affairs. We Scots and Welsh got our parliaments the way we wanted them. Let them find their way.

[Geoff the Mince]

1 hour ago, Space Mackerel said:

Sevco on the TV and one post from Thunderstruck around half time.

 

Im gonna join some dots. ?️‍♂️

No you are just going to slaver shite . 

[Thunderstruck]

30 minutes ago, Hunky Dory said:

 

Ah, that settles it then.  Some random punter on the internet claiming to speak for the thousands employed in Scottish shipbuilding on basis of a solitary conversation.

 

Tell you what, you carry on thinking what you like but I’ll rely on several updates (presentations) with Q&A from senior programme managers within the company. 

 

I take it that your selective reading list meant that you missed the announcement that the Clyde Yards wouldn’t bid for work on the T31 due to having a full order book. 

 

It’s a pity, however, that your concern for those thousands of workers doesn’t extend to their fate when their jobs go south if you get your Indy dream. 

 

 

[Space Mackerel]

1 minute ago, JamboX2 said:

 

Reading books on politics, newspapers, journals and research papers. You still reading the Reverand of Bath?

 

You do not need a referendum to do this. We live in a representative democracy. The Tories under Cameron imposed it as he believed in devolving power to communities. I think the course is set.

 

Regionalism is where it's going in England. Big regions - populations bigger than Scotland - taking on more and more power to run issues in their areas with common English frameworks. Frankly it's revitalising to see a debate on how to serve different areas here.

 

A federal UK won't be one parliament for England but multiple centres of power within England. Which is good as it will balance the union into smaller sets. It's for the English to decide how they organise their affairs. We Scots and Welsh got our parliaments the way we wanted them. Let them find their way.

 

Wait a minute, 6 months ago the Union was paramount to the U.K.’s survival to you. Now it’s devolved powers to the regions of England and maybe if we are lucky, Scotland too. 

 

Some think Scotland is a region of England so what’s it to be? What’s your dream constitutional solution that makes you proud to be British in 2018 and beyond? 

[Thunderstruck]

12 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

Reading books on politics, newspapers, journals and research papers. You still reading the Reverand of Bath?

 

You do not need a referendum to do this. We live in a representative democracy. The Tories under Cameron imposed it as he believed in devolving power to communities. I think the course is set.

 

Regionalism is where it's going in England. Big regions - populations bigger than Scotland - taking on more and more power to run issues in their areas with common English frameworks. Frankly it's revitalising to see a debate on how to serve different areas here.

 

A federal UK won't be one parliament for England but multiple centres of power within England. Which is good as it will balance the union into smaller sets. It's for the English to decide how they organise their affairs. We Scots and Welsh got our parliaments the way we wanted them. Let them find their way.

 

It is interesting that England is steering a reciprocal course to that followed by the SNP in Scotland where power and decision-making is being sucked inexorably to Holyrood. 

[JamboX2]

14 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

Wait a minute, 6 months ago the Union was paramount to the U.K.’s survival to you. Now it’s devolved powers to the regions of England and maybe if we are lucky, Scotland too. 

 

Scotland has devolution. English regions won't get the same level of powers imo. But if you want more local power in Scotland vote for parties offering it.

 

The union will be stronger for devolution in England's regions. 

 

14 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

Some think Scotland is a region of England so what’s it to be? What’s your dream constitutional solution that makes you proud to be British in 2018 and beyond? 

 

Scotland isn't an English region. But you're muddying waters here. 

 

Pride doesn't come into it. It's not about pride. It's about power at the right levels to support the economy and wider society. It's not for me to decide that.

[JamboX2]

5 minutes ago, Thunderstruck said:

 

It is interesting that England is steering a reciprocal course to that followed by the SNP in Scotland where power and decision-making is being sucked inexorably to Holyrood. 

 

Agreed. I think the debates over council tax and tourist tax shows a reluctance to address the local government headache in Scotland. Arguably it's time to consider if you need 32 unitary councils and whether it's time to have city regions (like down south) directing local services and finance more. Given Holyrood is being regularly empowered maybe it's time for local communities to be as well.

[Space Mackerel]

17 minutes ago, Thunderstruck said:

 

Tell you what, you carry on thinking what you like but I’ll rely on several updates (presentations) with Q&A from senior programme managers within the company. 

 

I take it that your selective reading list meant that you missed the announcement that the Clyde Yards wouldn’t bid for work on the T31 due to having a full order book. 

 

It’s a pity, however, that your concern for those thousands of workers doesn’t extend to their fate when their jobs go south if you get your Indy dream. 

 

 

 

Oh well readers,  the Royal Navy are the only people who place ship orders, no other country in the world has any sea borders, needs military assets, ferries, cargo or needs to move stuff about across any body of water. Best to vote No next time. 

 

You heard it here first. 

 

God bless the Royal (tin pot) Navy. 

[JackLadd]

No 100% for purely economic reasons.

[Space Mackerel]

4 minutes ago, JackLadd said:

No 100% for purely economic reasons.

 

But Scotland has no resources, not a single thing. How do we make any money and share it with 5 and a bit million people? 

[Thunderstruck]

6 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

Oh well readers,  the Royal Navy are the only people who place ship orders, no other country in the world has any sea borders, needs military assets, ferries, cargo or needs to move stuff about across any body of water. Best to vote No next time. 

 

You heard it here first. 

 

God bless the Royal (tin pot) Navy. 

 

Yes, the Clyde was so attractive that the Scottish Government commissioned Polish and German yards to build its vessels. 

 

That was until September 2014 when, to much razzmatazz, Fergusons in Port Glasgow was rescued by the SNP and one it’s notable supporters. Now that yard is building (very slowly) a couple of new ferries. The irony is that McColl is no longer an SNP supporter. 

 

The unconfirtable (for you) truth is that Naval shipbuilding is the only likely customer for the major Scottish yards. If you think anyone other than MoD U.K. is going to have ships built there, you need the help of a classroom assistant for more than joining dots. 

[Space Mackerel]

20 minutes ago, Thunderstruck said:

 

Yes, the Clyde was so attractive that the Scottish Government commissioned Polish and German yards to build its vessels. 

 

That was until September 2014 when, to much razzmatazz, Fergusons in Port Glasgow was rescued by the SNP and one it’s notable supporters. Now that yard is building (very slowly) a couple of new ferries. The irony is that McColl is no longer an SNP supporter. 

 

The unconfirtable (for you) truth is that Naval shipbuilding is the only likely customer for the major Scottish yards. If you think anyone other than MoD U.K. is going to have ships built there, you need the help of a classroom assistant for more than joining dots. 

 

“the only likely customer”

 

You read that here first, even though Scotland is an island community

 

What a demented world you live in. 

[jake]

I would vote yes again.

 

But I would be livid if gaining independence relinquished that to Brussels.

 

 

[Thunderstruck]

3 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

“the only likely customer”

 

You read that here first, even though Scotland is an island community

 

What a demented world you live in. 

 

Want to tell us which customer, other than the RN or Cal-Mac, had a vessel built on the Clyde in the past quarter of a century. 

 

If you think that anyone other than a department of state is commissioning anything of substance from a Clyde yard in face of competition from Poland, Germany, Italy, Finland or S Korea, you really do want your head tested. 

[frankblack]

12 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

“the only likely customer”

 

You read that here first, even though Scotland is an island community

 

What a demented world you live in. 

 

You do realise that wages and costs are not competitive against foreign yards with government subsidies, and government contracts are more of a political gesture to preserve jobs?

[Cruyff Turn]

36 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

But Scotland has no resources, not a single thing. How do we make any money and share it with 5 and a bit million people? 

Offshore Oil is a bonus other Countries dont have. Countries like Ireland, Denmark and Finland are turning over 100billion bucks more per year than we are ffs. 

 

The amount we make on Fishing, Farming, Food and Drink, Financial Services, Gaming, Software, Engineering, Electronics, Renewables, Transport, Sciences, Timber,  Tourism ect.. is far more valuable to us than Oil. Offshore Oil isn’t even the only natural resource we have. 

 

We have tonnes of shit going for us that other Countries could only dream off. Yet some people think we’d be worse off based on a whim. It must be something deeper for Unionists. 

[Space Mackerel]

4 minutes ago, Cruyff Turn said:

Offshore Oil is a bonus other Countries dont have. Countries like Ireland, Denmark and Finland are turning over 100billion bucks more per year than we are ffs. 

 

The amount we make on Fishing, Farming, Food and Drink, Financial Services, Gaming, Software, Engineering, Electronics, Renewables, Transport, Sciences, Timber,  Tourism ect.. is far more valuable to us than Oil. Offshore Oil isn’t even the only natural resource we have. 

 

We have tonnes of shit going for us that other Countries could only dream off. Yet some people think we’d be worse off based on a whim. It must be something deeper for Unionists. 

 

Its a sort of alt Dragons Den situation.

 

Hi, I’m Scotland folks, I’ve got all this and I’ve got low overheads and no borrowing costs, I’ve a ton of resources and all my staff are trained to up to the max.We have our legal, education, social policy, in fact, we are half way there already. We are gonna do something different in the world, like that  FoH did in Scottish fitba” 

 

JKB Unionists....”Naw, we like the Queen of England, we like being 6th in the league” 

[Roxy Hearts]

39 minutes ago, Cruyff Turn said:

Offshore Oil is a bonus other Countries dont have. Countries like Ireland, Denmark and Finland are turning over 100billion bucks more per year than we are ffs. 

 

The amount we make on Fishing, Farming, Food and Drink, Financial Services, Gaming, Software, Engineering, Electronics, Renewables, Transport, Sciences, Timber,  Tourism ect.. is far more valuable to us than Oil. Offshore Oil isn’t even the only natural resource we have. 

 

We have tonnes of shit going for us that other Countries could only dream off. Yet some people think we’d be worse off based on a whim. It must be something deeper for Unionists. 

This is where I've been for a long time. 

[Space Mackerel]

23 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

This is where I've been for a long time. 

 

Youve got to be off your head to think 5.5 million people cant make use of the resources Scotland has.

 

Or just give them away and build Channel Tunnels, widen M25 etc etc etc Some people never learn, some people weren’t even born then. 

[Shooter McGavin]

I voted yes first time round, It would be a no if there was a second vote.

 

The hassle of brexit has totally put me off.

[SwindonJambo]

27 minutes ago, Shooter McGavin said:

I voted yes first time round, It would be a no if there was a second vote.

 

The hassle of brexit has totally put me off.

 

That’s a valuable contribution, as are those who’ve swapped over in the opposite direction and given their reasons for doing so, the whole point of the thread. A huge number of posts are just continuing the old debate and belong to the main thread, imho.

 

The polling over the last while suggests very little change from the 2014 referendum itself so it seems like those changing their minds in the last 4 years are roughly cancelling each other out. 

[geomac]

44 minutes ago, Shooter McGavin said:

I voted yes first time round, It would be a no if there was a second vote.

 

The hassle of brexit has totally put me off.

 

Resources needed for the future - food, water & energy, we are wealthy in all, maybe we should be a wealthy part of the world - Yes for me -  or tug your forelock to your masters

[Pans Jambo]

On 19/09/2018 at 23:01, H2 said:

Even with a Scottish Conservative Government

?

Thing is, after Indy only the Scots could vote in a Conservative government in Scotland unlike now where we get what England wants. 

Edited September 21, 2018 by Pans Jambo

[Boris]

11 hours ago, JamboX2 said:

 

 

A federal UK won't be one parliament for England but multiple centres of power within England. Which is good as it will balance the union into smaller sets. It's for the English to decide how they organise their affairs. We Scots and Welsh got our parliaments the way we wanted them. Let them find their way.

 

I don't really disagree with you on that, however I would like to see all of these devolved parliaments r regional assemblies in England to have the same powers.  Avoids any finger pointing later.

[PsychocAndy]

On 20/09/2018 at 00:01, H2 said:

Even with a Scottish Conservative Government

?

Ha ha ha ha. There will never be a Scottish Conservative Government. Not in my lifetime anyway. 

The thought of it. Christ your a joker, eh.

[Arnold Rothstein]

15 minutes ago, PsychocAndy said:

Ha ha ha ha. There will never be a Scottish Conservative Government. Not in my lifetime anyway. 

The thought of it. Christ your a joker, eh.

 

Emmm, there is every chance there would be. 

[jack D and coke]

27 minutes ago, PsychocAndy said:

Ha ha ha ha. There will never be a Scottish Conservative Government. Not in my lifetime anyway. 

The thought of it. Christ your a joker, eh.

If you stop thinking about people like Boris Johnson and Jacob Rees Mogg and think of an independent Scotland and someone like David McLetchie running for Scottish PM it’s not that difficult to imagine he’d be in with a really good shout of winning. 

Annabel Goldie was another I had a lot of time for. 

Personally, within a couple of GE’s, I think there’s a very good chance it would happen. 

[JamboX2]

3 hours ago, Boris said:

 

I don't really disagree with you on that, however I would like to see all of these devolved parliaments r regional assemblies in England to have the same powers.  Avoids any finger pointing later.

 

It can't really unless you want to break up the English parts of the NHS and their education system.

[Space Mackerel]

1 hour ago, jack D and coke said:

If you stop thinking about people like Boris Johnson and Jacob Rees Mogg and think of an independent Scotland and someone like David McLetchie running for Scottish PM it’s not that difficult to imagine he’d be in with a really good shout of winning. 

Annabel Goldie was another I had a lot of time for. 

Personally, within a couple of GE’s, I think there’s a very good chance it would happen. 

 

Cannae see it, Scotland ditched the Tory’s way back in the 60’s. They’re on roughly 23% now and dropping. The actual standard of Tory AND Labour MSP’s in Scotland is shockingly bad, absolute brain dead. 

[Boris]

56 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

It can't really unless you want to break up the English parts of the NHS and their education system.

I suppose I'm advocating a more federal outcome. 

[frankblack]

27 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

Cannae see it, Scotland ditched the Tory’s way back in the 60’s. They’re on roughly 23% now and dropping. The actual standard of Tory AND Labour MSP’s in Scotland is shockingly bad, absolute brain dead. 

 

I agree, but to be fair so are the SNP MSPs.

Edited September 21, 2018 by frankblack

[Cruyff Turn]

1 hour ago, jack D and coke said:

If you stop thinking about people like Boris Johnson and Jacob Rees Mogg and think of an independent Scotland and someone like David McLetchie running for Scottish PM it’s not that difficult to imagine he’d be in with a really good shout of winning. 

Annabel Goldie was another I had a lot of time for. 

Personally, within a couple of GE’s, I think there’s a very good chance it would happen. 

I think there could be but it wouldn’t be made up of the current British Nationalists like Mundell, Murdo Fraser and Ruth Davidson. They don’t support an Independent Scotland so why would they have an Independent Scotland’s interests at heart? 

 

Many Nationalist supporters who are Conservatives, would not vote for those people. 

 

There are SNP MP’s and MSP’s who are right of centre and believe in low taxation & the free market. 

 

After Independence, people from a Nationalist background who are right of centre would not work with the current lot and vice versa.

 

It would have to be a completely different bunch of Conservatives for that to happen. 

[Space Mackerel]

12 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

I agree, but to be fair so are the SNP MSPs.

 

I cant agree with that Sturgeon, Swinney, Russell and even my local MSP Ash Denholm are miles in front to name but a few. 

 

Even our young kids on the block are way better. 

[SwindonJambo]

Interestingly, a very consistent over 50% don't want another referendum at any time in the next few years.

http://whatscotlandthinks.org/questions/when-do-you-think-anotherscottish-independencereferendum-should-be-held-asked-a#table

 

Scotland has been polled to death in the last few years - since 2014, an indyref, a Brexit Ref, 2 General Elections and , a Holyrood Election and local council elections.  Perhaps a lot of people just want a break from voting and just get on with it, perhaps revisiting the issue in a few years' time, when the dust's settled and we've seen how Brexit actually goes instead of theorising on it?

[Arnold Rothstein]

36 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

I cant agree with that Sturgeon, Swinney, Russell and even my local MSP Ash Denholm are miles in front to name but a few. 

 

Even our young kids on the block are way better. 

 

John Swinney. ? GTF

[Space Mackerel]

37 minutes ago, Arnold Rothstein said:

 

John Swinney. ? GTF

 

He gave Ruth a good slapping the other week in Holyrood. When he is in full flow he's pretty good. 

 

What have you got on the other side? Media construct Ruth Davidson who refuses to be scrutinised, failed car salesman Jackson Carlaw, Murdo never been elected Fraser and Dick Leonard who makes gaff after gaff about what is devolved or not. Willie Rennie who wants another ref on EU but not one on Indy, he is a proper balloon.  

[H2]

6 hours ago, Pans Jambo said:

Thing is, after Indy only the Scots could vote in a Conservative government in Scotland unlike now where we get what England wants. 

That's a very interesting interpretation.

In an Independent Scotland, we would get whatever Glasgow Votes,, it's the same logic!

Let's have an Independent Edinburgh.

Apart form that UK have probaly had a Labour Government in the past when the Englich contingent voted Tory.

and lets break it right down less than half the people that vote get the Government they want.

 

[Pans Jambo]

16 minutes ago, H2 said:

That's a very interesting interpretation.

 

In an Independent Scotland, we would get whatever Glasgow Votes,, it's the same logic!

 

Let's have an Independent Edinburgh.

 

Apart form that UK have probaly had a Labour Government in the past when the Englich contingent voted Tory.

and lets break it right down less than half the people that vote get the Government they want.

 

Believe it or not Glasgow IS in Scotland whereas Hemel Hempstead is not.

 

Heard your pishy argument many times before. Usually its "lets make the Orkney Islands Independent" etc.

 

Scotland mate, Scotland!

 

You are saying that England voted Tory but because Scotland voted Labour, a Labour government was returned at Westminster. OK, when? 

[JamboX2]

2 hours ago, Boris said:

I suppose I'm advocating a more federal outcome. 

 

True. But at the expense of balkinising England. Which I doubt those people will accept. Devolution will be assymetrical in the UK. That's about it. That's not to say union is bad. 

[JamboX2]

11 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

Believe it or not Glasgow IS in Scotland whereas Hemel Hempstead is not.

 

Heard your pishy argument many times before. Usually its "lets make the Orkney Islands Independent" etc.

 

Scotland mate, Scotland!

 

You are saying that England voted Tory but because Scotland voted Labour, a Labour government was returned at Westminster. OK, when? 

 

13 seats in Scotland kept May in her job. 

[Boris]

5 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

13 seats in Scotland kept May in her job. 

 

Something that those who voted Tory simply as a "no to indy ref" need to square with their consciences.

[ri Alban]

49 minutes ago, H2 said:

That's a very interesting interpretation.

 

In an Independent Scotland, we would get whatever Glasgow Votes,, it's the same logic!

 

Let's have an Independent Edinburgh.

 

Apart form that UK have probaly had a Labour Government in the past when the Englich contingent voted Tory.

and lets break it right down less than half the people that vote get the Government they want.

 

Fptp will be gone, so every vote counts. 

[ri Alban]

13 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

13 seats in Scotland kept May in her job. 

No, the DUP kept her in a job. 

[Gambo]

I'd vote for proper independence from the EU and London.

 

If it was Independence from London but stay in EU then a No from me.

[Space Mackerel]

35 minutes ago, Gambo said:

I'd vote for proper independence from the EU and London.

 

If it was Independence from London but stay in EU then a No from me.

 

Thats a debate for another day.

 

If you want to decorate the house, first you must get the keys.