Phil Dunphy Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 Folk actually think this is a good idea Shambolic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pocketjambo Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 Never offside shambles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kila Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 Not watching the United game, what did I miss? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Dunphy Posted February 17, 2018 Author Share Posted February 17, 2018 Just now, kila said: Not watching the United game, what did I miss? United score perfectly good goal, referee 400 miles away rules Mata is offside by about an inch. If that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fandango Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 Made my own attempt ..... no too bad tbh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DH1986 Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 Just now, Phil Dunphy said: United score perfectly good goal, referee 400 miles away rules Mata is offside by about an inch. If that. The distance the VAR guy is away is irrelevant to your argument tbh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Dunphy Posted February 17, 2018 Author Share Posted February 17, 2018 Just now, DH1986 said: The distance the VAR guy is away is irrelevant to your argument tbh. Do you think VAR is a good thing for football? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 Just now, Phil Dunphy said: Do you think VAR is a good thing for football? Yes. It was offside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Dunphy Posted February 17, 2018 Author Share Posted February 17, 2018 1 minute ago, redjambo said: Yes. It was offside. If you think VAR is a positive step for football, then you don't get football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 Just now, Phil Dunphy said: If you think VAR is a positive step for football, then you don't get football. That's very dismissive of someone who holds an opposite view to yours. If you want to argue against VAR, do so on the merits or not of VAR, not by having a go at those who disagree with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 The stream I saw showed him onside on the first replay, but the VAR seemed to show the ball having been played a frame or two earlier. I think that is a weakness of the system, as how do we know in which frame the ball is played (leaves the foot)? I think TV is played at 25 frames per second, so even someone walking at 4mph will cover approx 3in in 1/25th of a second. Someone running at pace will obvisously cover more ground between frames. There could be a case of using "umpires call", as in cricket, when calling these frame by frame decsions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Dunphy Posted February 17, 2018 Author Share Posted February 17, 2018 Just now, redjambo said: That's very dismissive of someone who holds an opposite view to yours. If you want to argue against VAR, do so on the merits or not of VAR, not by having a go at those who disagree with you. Sorry snowflake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 Just now, Phil Dunphy said: Sorry snowflake. A walking cliché, so you are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Dunphy Posted February 17, 2018 Author Share Posted February 17, 2018 Just now, redjambo said: A walking cliché, so you are. That's very dismissive of you. Have you tried watching that game, rugby? That might be better for you. They have video referees and that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 7 minutes ago, Fandango said: Made my own attempt ..... no too bad tbh The "straight'ish" yellow line should at least look parallel to the 18 yard line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Internet Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 First of all I don't get why they're rolling it out seemingly at random. And yeah it's never going to work, it's totally different to goal line technology which has a guaranteed correct clear cut answer right away. It's impossible to have an equivalent of that for every decision in football. Too many things which aren't clear even after thousands of replays. Tbh I'm quite glad it's going wrong as I hated the idea of it. Makes me sound like a dinosaur that's afraid of change but I genuinely think it would be a terrible thing for the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Dunphy Posted February 17, 2018 Author Share Posted February 17, 2018 Just now, Mauricio Pinilla said: First of all I don't get why they're rolling it out seemingly at random. And yeah it's never going to work, it's totally different to goal line technology which has a guaranteed correct clear cut answer right away. It's impossible to have an equivalent of that for every decision in football. Too many things which aren't clear even after thousands of replays. People seem to believe it's going to get every big decision right. When that's also at the interpretation of the referee. Referees will always have an agenda, whether they're sat in front of a screen or otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 Just now, Phil Dunphy said: That's very dismissive of you. I decided to descend to your level to make you feel more comfortable. Right, back to VAR. Do you not feel, especially given the huge number of dodgy decisions over the years, that we should strive to make decisions that are as closely to reality, i.e. as correct, as possible? Because I certainly do, which is why I think VAR is a great idea and long overdue. It has the downside of introducing breaks into the game, admittedly, but it has the upside of making the game fairer for both teams and working to eliminate dodgy decisions from the referee and his assistants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kila Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 Some golf tournaments were ruined by detailed slow motion replays showing a rule infringement that the naked eye was not able to see at the time. They've since amended the rules so players can't be penalised by that, and TV cameras now tend to avoid zooming in really close when a player is addressing the ball in case it moves 1mm and some arse at home makes a fuss of it. Looking at the image above, football is being ruined by the same sort of thing with VAR analysing things in detail that the naked eye could not see at the time. The rules are being applied far too rigorously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 1 minute ago, Phil Dunphy said: People seem to believe it's going to get every big decision right. When that's also at the interpretation of the referee. Referees will always have an agenda, whether they're sat in front of a screen or otherwise. Nope, but it's going to get them righter. And that's a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Dunphy Posted February 17, 2018 Author Share Posted February 17, 2018 Just now, redjambo said: I decided to descend to your level to make you feel more comfortable. Right, back to VAR. Do you not feel, especially given the huge number of dodgy decisions over the years, that we should strive to make decisions that are as closely to reality, i.e. as correct, as possible? Because I certainly do, which is why I think VAR is a great idea and long overdue. It has the downside of introducing breaks into the game, admittedly, but it has the upside of making the game fairer for both teams and working to eliminate dodgy decisions from the referee and his assistants. It won't work because of the people behind the screens. A different referee might have said that Mata was onside. Imagine finding out John Beaton was a video assistant with Collum in the middle. Would that make you feel more at ease that the big decisions would be right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 Here is the first image I saw of the "offside". When did the ball leave the foot? Was it as in the VAR image or in this normal TV image? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DH1986 Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 13 minutes ago, Phil Dunphy said: Do you think VAR is a good thing for football? I’d rather Football was left alone but so far VAR seems to have got every decision right. I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Internet Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 3 minutes ago, Footballfirst said: Here is the first image I saw of the "offside". When did the ball leave the foot? Was it as in the VAR image or in this normal TV image? Offside imo? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Dunphy Posted February 17, 2018 Author Share Posted February 17, 2018 1 minute ago, DH1986 said: I’d rather Football was left alone but so far VAR seems to have got every decision right. I think. Did you catch this nonsense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 1 minute ago, DH1986 said: I’d rather Football was left alone but so far VAR seems to have got every decision right. I think. I think tonight's decision was wrong (for the first time in English football), see the images above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 Just now, Phil Dunphy said: It won't work because of the people behind the screens. A different referee might have said that Mata was onside. Imagine finding out John Beaton was a video assistant with Collum in the middle. Would that make you feel more at ease that the big decisions would be right? That was a very close call, and with close calls it's always going to be up to the judgment of the particular VAR guy. I completely agree. But hopefully, and remember we're in the early days of adoption yet, a greater proportion of cases will be be more clear-cut than that. The system is never going to be perfect, but I think it is going to make a positive difference and that's what counts. It will take a time to bed in. What I would like to see however is that those at home and at the ground, if there are big screens, are shown *exactly* what the VAR referee is shown so that we can make a judgement on whether they got it right or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fandango Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 11 minutes ago, Footballfirst said: The "straight'ish" yellow line should at least look parallel to the 18 yard line. Seen that FF.....absolute comedy stuff, it needs to vastly improve to feature in all games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Vladimir of Romanov Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 18 minutes ago, Phil Dunphy said: If you think VAR is a positive step for football, then you don't get football. Here we go again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Shark Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 5 minutes ago, DH1986 said: I’d rather Football was left alone but so far VAR seems to have got every decision right. I think. Would it help in a league where some referees and assistants were blatant cheats ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DH1986 Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 3 minutes ago, Phil Dunphy said: Did you catch this nonsense? I have no idea what that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Dunphy Posted February 17, 2018 Author Share Posted February 17, 2018 Just now, redjambo said: That was a very close call, and with close calls it's always going to be up to the judgment of the particular VAR guy. I completely agree. But hopefully, and remember we're in the early days of adoption yet, a greater proportion of cases will be be more clear-cut than that. The system is never going to be perfect, but I think it is going to make a positive difference and that's what counts. It will take a time to bed in. What I would like to see however is that those at home and at the ground, if there are big screens, are shown *exactly* what the VAR referee is shown so that we can make a judgement on whether they got it right or not. The system is there to get the big decisions right. When it can't guarantee that it'll get the big decisions right, then what's the point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 Here is the one that was apparently used to call it offside. In which of the three images we've seen was the ball actually "played". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Dunphy Posted February 17, 2018 Author Share Posted February 17, 2018 Just now, DH1986 said: I have no idea what that is. That's a giant flag in front of the VAR camera in a Portuguese league game when it was called upon to make a decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dinger Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 looks offside to me tbh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpruceBringsteen Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 1 minute ago, DH1986 said: I have no idea what that is. A supporters flag in front of the VAR camera. It's a joke, but it's here to stay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 1 minute ago, Phil Dunphy said: The system is there to get the big decisions right. When it can't guarantee that it'll get the big decisions right, then what's the point? There's no way it can get *all* the big decisions right though. Surely it's enough that it gets a sizeable majority of the big decisions right and leaves the really marginal ones to the discretion of the referee (which would be the best approach). We're still on a learning curve, but VAR has done pretty well so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DH1986 Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 4 minutes ago, Footballfirst said: I think tonight's decision was wrong (for the first time in English football), see the images above. It’s certainly a very very close call either way. I’m sure there will numerous images claiming it was a correct decision soon. I think you need to be in possession of the right technology to be absolutely certain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gizmo Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 That decision is so marginal as to be in the "give the attacker the benefit of the doubt" category. VAR needs to be transparent - we need perfect overlays of the pitch to assist the camera system and the decision maker (and ideally that decision should be augmented by AR). It will develop, and it clearly needs to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DH1986 Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 So.... BT now claiming VAR got the decision correct. Job done it seems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Dunphy Posted February 17, 2018 Author Share Posted February 17, 2018 1 minute ago, redjambo said: There's no way it can get *all* the big decisions right though. Surely it's enough that it gets a sizeable majority of the big decisions right and leaves the really marginal ones to the discretion of the referee (which would be the best approach). We're still on a learning curve, but VAR has done pretty well so far. According to Graham Poll on the telly there, it took 8 minutes to get the right picture to prove categorically the decision for the disallowed goal. **** waiting 8 minutes to find out your team scored a goal. It's not ready, bin it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DH1986 Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 1 minute ago, Phil Dunphy said: According to Graham Poll on the telly there, it took 8 minutes to get the right picture to prove categorically the decision for the disallowed goal. **** waiting 8 minutes to find out your team scored a goal. It's not ready, bin it. They didn’t wait 8 minutes though. You’re all over the place here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 3 minutes ago, Phil Dunphy said: According to Graham Poll on the telly there, it took 8 minutes to get the right picture to prove categorically the decision for the disallowed goal. **** waiting 8 minutes to find out your team scored a goal. It's not ready, bin it. Agreed, 8 minutes is far too long. Again, that was exceptional though. I would prefer that they work at refining the system with the aim of getting the VAR time as short as possible (possibly also with a time limit after which the referee is simply told that VAR can't help). Edit: I wasn't watching the game so am editing this response in light of DH1986's comment that there wasn't an 8-minute wait time (perhaps it took the guys in the studio 8 minutes to track down the relevant image). I still believe though that getting the response time down should be one of the highest priorities of VAR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 6 minutes ago, DH1986 said: It’s certainly a very very close call either way. I’m sure there will numerous images claiming it was a correct decision soon. I think you need to be in possession of the right technology to be absolutely certain. The question I have, as stated above, is in what frame had the ball left Young's foot. There could be an argument for checking the frame before and after the one that the VAR judged to have been when the ball was played, and only if the player is onside or offside in all three could the on-field call be reversed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Dunphy Posted February 17, 2018 Author Share Posted February 17, 2018 2 minutes ago, DH1986 said: They didn’t wait 8 minutes though. You’re all over the place here. It's clear my point went way over your head. I'll try and dumb them down for you in future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Dunphy Posted February 17, 2018 Author Share Posted February 17, 2018 2 minutes ago, redjambo said: Agreed, 8 minutes is far too long. Again, that was exceptional though. I would prefer that they work at refining the system with the aim of getting the VAR time as short as possible (possibly also with a time limit after which the referee is simply told that VAR can't help). Think about how many fractional offside calls we see. I don't think tonights example will be an exceptional one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DH1986 Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 Just now, Phil Dunphy said: It's clear my point went way over your head. I'll try and dumb them down for you in future. Dont bother. Lets just agree that it’s been confirmed now that VAR got this decision correct and we can all move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Dunphy Posted February 17, 2018 Author Share Posted February 17, 2018 1 minute ago, DH1986 said: Dont bother. Lets just agree that it’s been confirmed now that VAR got this decision correct and we can all move on. Don't bother trying to tailor my responses so you can understand them better? Ok, no worries Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 1 minute ago, Phil Dunphy said: Think about how many fractional offside calls we see. I don't think tonights example will be an exceptional one. That's why it's too early to make a decision on whether VAR is going to overall be a positive development or not (although I personally believe it will be). We need to give it a far longer testing period, refining it as we go along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Dunphy Posted February 17, 2018 Author Share Posted February 17, 2018 Just now, redjambo said: That's why it's too early to make a decision on whether VAR is going to overall be a positive development or not (although I personally believe it will be). We need to give it a far longer testing period, refining it as we go along. The only way this will work is giving the referee access to a screen in the stadium and let him make his own decision. None of this asking someone a few hundred miles away for a decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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