White Helmets

[jake]

It's like arguing with a sun editorial.

[Ulysses]

19 minutes ago, jake said:

It's like arguing with a sun editorial.

 

Would you not try posting from an independent source?

 

Maybe it's just easier to post something like that knowing that you can't find one.  But go on, make the effort.

 

[jake]

19 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

Would you not try posting from an independent source?

 

Maybe it's just easier to post something like that knowing that you can't find one.  But go on, make the effort.

 

And your independent news source consists of?

 

Is the journalist cockburn a Russian agent?

 

Please indicate a source of yours that's independent of.

 

1.interference from pressure from editors due to pressure from high level government

2.interference from one of several owners of world wide media?

 

I do not rely on info wars for my input.

I do admit that media is influenced by both sides.

You on the other hand remain dogmatic.

 

Serious reflection on this particular conflict shows that the forces which have invaded Syria are backed by western money and or western allies .

There does arise a bigger picture.

Please don't fool me or your self that this is somehow the age old shit of good v evil.

 

I could not show you an independent link for your side or mine.

 

But to whose benefit is this conflict?

 

That's the bottom line.

 

 

[jake]

Oh and btw try not to be so touchy.

You give it .

Got to take it.

 

 

[jake]

30 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

Would you not try posting from an independent source?

 

Maybe it's just easier to post something like that knowing that you can't find one.  But go on, make the effort.

 

One other thing.

I really do try to make the effort.

I try to qualify things.

Imo it's you who are lazily acceptant of narratives because it suits your ideology.

 

The world is not black and white.

And history is a great teacher.

 

[Ulysses]

So that'll be a no, then.

 

I thought not.

[jake]

Why do you think that various relief organisations around the world struggled with funding.

Yet an organisation in an area where press freedom makes China and Russia look liberal compared to western standards received US and UK govt funding.

Oh and try getting FOI about this.

Imagine white helmets even operating with good intentions under the control of jihadi groups who in effect invaded Syria.

[jake]

4 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

So that'll be a no, then.

 

I thought not.

So Cockburn is not a recognised journalist with integrity?

 

Can you give sources to the truth in Syria apart from Hollywood?

 

[jake]

Can you prove that Syria gassed it's own people?

This was widely reported from your sources.

Can you say why this war started?

 

Did you believe the wmd about Iraq?

The babies in incubators in Kuwait?

 

Imagine I had questioned that.

Sordid etc.

 

Really Uly are you always ready to believe without question?

 

Need to win the euro millions get myself a paper.

 

Need to be careful can't mildly tease .

It's not the done thing on here.

 

Hey are you a CIA troll?

[Ulysses]

2 minutes ago, jake said:

So Cockburn is not a recognised journalist with integrity?

 

Can you give sources to the truth in Syria apart from Hollywood?

 

 

 

I haven't made any outlandish claims on this thread.  You have.  I showed you clearly that all "data sources" for claims relating to the White Helmets stem from the same original Assad and Russian sources, yet you continue to support an agenda to deny attacked civilians first responders.  I don't claim that any "Western" media source is free of bias or holier than thou.  But you claim that because "Western" media sources are biased, then a source that isn't "Western" must be unbiased.  That is naive, really naive.  Because it's a bit unwholesome to think that you actively want to deny attacked civilians first responders, I'm left assuming that your naive view is a function of your analytical ineptitude.  But to be frank, being unable to distinguish between analysis and propaganda can only get you a free pass for a while.

[jake]

Am I the Scottish niblick.

Sorry nibs.

 

Just checked my sentencing and retort.

Actually surprised the wee white parrot hasn't quipped in with shit patter.

 

 

Anyway uly.

I think like UGLY you are a good guy and we all want the same.

But I hold different people responsible because they are our responsibility.

[Ulysses]

4 minutes ago, jake said:

[deletia]

 

 

I removed all of that because it was either nonsense unrelated to anything I've said or just you starting to have a personal go because you know you're getting nowhere.

 

Anyway, you can deflect until sunrise if you like, but I'm just grateful that I don't see the world your way.  Your view is between you and your conscience, and I'm not wasting my time on you any more.

[jake]

1 minute ago, Ulysses said:

 

 

I haven't made any outlandish claims on this thread.  You have.  I showed you clearly that all "data sources" for claims relating to the White Helmets stem from the same original Assad and Russian sources, yet you continue to support an agenda to deny attacked civilians first responders.  I don't claim that any "Western" media source is free of bias or holier than thou.  But you claim that because "Western" media sources are biased, then a source that isn't "Western" must be unbiased.  That is naive, really naive.  Because it's a bit unwholesome to think that you actively want to deny attacked civilians first responders, I'm left assuming that your naive view is a function of your analytical ineptitude.  But to be frank, being unable to distinguish between analysis and propaganda can only get you a free pass for a while.

To be frank.

That post is shite .

Posted from an argument that's lost.

 

Most right thinking people know that the conflict in Syria is cia induced.

 

Because most right thinking people know what American hegemony involves.

 

Your gripe I suspect is it was done in Obama's regime.

 

It's a let down I appreciate.

But one as a alcohol soaked socialist I know all to well.

 

 

 

[ri Alban]

5 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

 

I removed all of that because it was either nonsense unrelated to anything I've said or just you starting to have a PERSONAL GO because you know you're getting nowhere.

 

Anyway, you can deflect until sunrise if you like, but I'm just grateful that I don't see the world your way.  Your view is between you and your conscience, and I'm not wasting my time on you any more.

Funny how one of your posts seems to missing. 

 

Jake actually did quite well here considering. 

Edited January 18, 2018 by ri Alban

[ri Alban]

5 hours ago, jake said:

To be frank.

That post is shite .

Posted from an argument that's lost.

 

Most right thinking people know that the conflict in Syria is cia induced.

 

Because most right thinking people know what American hegemony involves.

 

Your gripe I suspect is it was done in Obama's regime.

 

It's a let down I appreciate.

But one as a alcohol soaked socialist I know all to well.

 

 

 

It was planned and implemented well before Obama.

[All roads lead to Gorgie]

When I saw the name I thought the White Helmets were some kind of extremist hillbilly group of Trump supporters. 

[John Findlay]

No imagination. Should be called the Purple helmets.

[Geoff the Mince]

Just now, John Findlay said:

No imagination. Should be called the Purple helmets.

[felix]

On 03/12/2017 at 00:04, Ulysses said:

Ah well.

At least you've answered the question you posed to open the thread.  The White Helmets aren't regarded as a source of fake news.

A good way to finish the discussion, methinks.

 

Just finished a brilliant BBC Intrigue podcast: "Mayday" - about the suicide of White Helmets founder James Le Mesurier.

Charts their history including all the conspiicies and accusations.

Whether they were a source of fake news or not, they were definately used as the sole recorders and therefore propagandists - on one side of a two-sided civil (or regime change) war.  

Recommended.

[Weakened Offender]

23 minutes ago, felix said:

 

Just finished a brilliant BBC Intrigue podcast: "Mayday" - about the suicide of White Helmets founder James Le Mesurier.

Charts their history including all the conspiicies and accusations.

Whether they were a source of fake news or not, they were definately used as the sole recorders and therefore propagandists - on one side of a two-sided civil (or regime change) war.  

Recommended.

 

Le Mesurier had a well dodgy past. 

[Weakened Offender]

On 28/11/2017 at 00:50, Ulysses said:

 

No, it has been established beyond reasonable doubt that this organisation is a target of fake news sponsored by the Assad regime and the Russian government-sponsored media, along with an array of hypernationalist right-wing conspiracy theorists (think Alex Jones and people like that). 

 

 

 

Your posts on this thread haven't really aged well, eh? 😬

[felix]

22 minutes ago, Weakened Offender said:

 

Le Mesurier had a well dodgy past. 

From the podcast, and interviews with his wife, sounds like he thought he was James Bond 

Sandhurst & Mi6 (maybe).

[Weakened Offender]

8 minutes ago, felix said:

From the podcast, and interviews with his wife, sounds like he thought he was James Bond 

Sandhurst & Mi6 (maybe).

 

I might give it a go. There's plenty other stuff out there too. 

[felix]

3 minutes ago, Weakened Offender said:

 

I might give it a go. There's plenty other stuff out there too. 

There is indeed. 

The BBC podcast by Chloe Hadjimatheou is well researched and covers a lot, whilst keeping the central story of White Helmets founder, James Le Mesurier's death, at it's core.

[Ulysses]

1 hour ago, felix said:

 

Just finished a brilliant BBC Intrigue podcast: "Mayday" - about the suicide of White Helmets founder James Le Mesurier.

Charts their history including all the conspiicies and accusations.

Whether they were a source of fake news or not, they were definately used as the sole recorders and therefore propagandists - on one side of a two-sided civil (or regime change) war.  

Recommended.

 

 

Thanks.  I'll take a look.  Three years later, eh?  I'd quite forgotten.

 

49 minutes ago, Weakened Offender said:

 

Your posts on this thread haven't really aged well, eh? 😬

 

I haven't been following, to be honest.  Evidently, I'm not alone in that, as the thread lay dormant for almost three years until it was exhumed this evening.  Regretttably, the world has been so full of bad news that Syria has somewhat slipped out of the limelight.  It shouldn't have, of course, but that's how it goes.  The fact that the organisation was the target of fake news and disinformation attacks by the Assad regime, Russian government-sponsored media, and hypernationalist right-wing conspiracy theorists has never been successfully challenged.  If it also happens to be dubious in some way, that doesn't validate the disinformation campaign.

 

By the way, I have a big and comfortable house in one of the leafy suburbs of Dublin's southside, so I don't need to live rent-free in your head as well. 

Edited January 1, 2021 by Ulysses

[Weakened Offender]

4 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

 

Thanks.  I'll take a look.  Three years later, eh?  I'd quite forgotten.

 

 

I haven't been following, to be honest.  Evidently, I'm not alone in that, as the thread lay dormant for almost three years until it was exhumed this evening.  Regretttably, the world has been so full of bad news that Syria has somewhat slipped out of the limelight.  It shouldn't have, of course, but that's how it goes.  The fact that the organisation was the target of fake news and disinformation attacks by the Assad regime, Russian government-sponsored media, and hypernationalist right-wing conspiracy theorists has never been successfully challenged.  If it also happens to be dubious in some way, that doesn't validate the disinformation campaign.

 

By the way, I have a big and comfortable house in one of the leafy suburbs of Dublin's southside, so I don't need to live rent-free in your head as well. 

 

You shouldn't flatter yourself. I was merely pointing out that, since your posts 3 years ago, the White Helmets have been pretty exposed. 

 

I'm pleased you have a big house, mind. 👍

[Ulysses]

4 minutes ago, Weakened Offender said:

 

I'm pleased you have a big house, mind. 👍

 

So's Mrs U, TBH. 

 

 

 

7 minutes ago, Weakened Offender said:

 

You shouldn't flatter yourself. I was merely pointing out that, since your posts 3 years ago, the White Helmets have been pretty exposed.

 

 

So what if they have?  If someone had exposed them at the time we might have had a different thread.  They hadn't, and we didn't.

 

20 years ago I didn't think gay people could marry each other.  I wasn't against it; I just never thought of things that way.  A few years later I changed my mind.  When was I wrong and when was I right?  Was I right all along?  If other people changed their views at different times to me, were they wrong, or was I still wrong?  Is there a statute of limitations on when you can be right, be wrong, or see new evidence?

[Weakened Offender]

1 minute ago, Ulysses said:

 

So's Mrs U, TBH. 

 

 

 

 

So what if they have?  If someone had exposed them at the time we might have had a different thread.  They hadn't, and we didn't.

 

20 years ago I didn't think gay people could marry each other.  I wasn't against it; I just never thought of things that way.  A few years later I changed my mind.  When was I wrong and when was I right?  Was I right all along?  If other people changed their views at different times to me, were they wrong, or was I still wrong?  Is there a statute of limitations on when you can be right, be wrong, or see new evidence?

 

Mate, I only said your posts hadn't aged well. 😉

[Riddley Walker]

Does Jake still post? Not seen him in a while.

[Ulysses]

14 minutes ago, Weakened Offender said:

 

Mate, I only said your posts hadn't aged well. 😉

 

Who knows, perhaps they haven't?  I should check out the podcast felix suggested.

[A Boy Named Crow]

7 hours ago, Riddley Walker said:

Does Jake still post? Not seen him in a while.

I was thinking that.  You see a few names on these older threads that used to be all over here, then vanished. Maybe changed their names, or could've ditched their profiles altogether and started again, maybe post elsewhere...or maybe they've gone into witness protection? I suppose a lot of the time we'll never know. 

Edited January 2, 2021 by A Boy Named Crow

[Weakened Offender]

Jake still posts on Kickback alright. 😀

[Governor Tarkin]

13 hours ago, Justin Z said:

 

(admin delete)

 

 

Jake treads a very fine line and occasionally crosses it.

His worldview is is a product of his environment, and he calls a spade a spade as he see's it.

I don't agree with much of what he says, but often admire him for having the courage to say it.

I have little doubt that in his heart he's a good guy.

 

[coconut doug]

21 hours ago, felix said:

 

Just finished a brilliant BBC Intrigue podcast: "Mayday" - about the suicide of White Helmets founder James Le Mesurier.

Charts their history including all the conspiicies and accusations.

Whether they were a source of fake news or not, they were definately used as the sole recorders and therefore propagandists - on one side of a two-sided civil (or regime change) war.  

Recommended.

 

I had a listen to No 4 (hoax producers) and i have to say it was little more than a character assassination of Vanessa Beeley.

I actually thought the title might address the issue of the BBC producer who claimed the the Douma bombing and response had been falsified. Of course i should have realised our state broadcaster would never recognise such a thing. https://www.eutimes.net/2019/02/bbc-producer-comes-forward-and-admits-assad-chemical-attack-was-fake/

 

 

[dicksojo]

25 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

 

I had a listen to No 4 (hoax producers) and i have to say it was little more than a character assassination of Vanessa Beeley.

I actually thought the title might address the issue of the BBC producer who claimed the the Douma bombing and response had been falsified. Of course i should have realised our state broadcaster would never recognise such a thing. https://www.eutimes.net/2019/02/bbc-producer-comes-forward-and-admits-assad-chemical-attack-was-fake/

 

 

The EU Times. You can’t be serious.

[coconut doug]

3 minutes ago, dicksojo said:

The EU Times. You can’t be serious.

 

He's a BBC producer. The story has been covered in many places. Obviously not very popular in UK.

 

What's the problem with the EU Times i'm not very familiar with it.

[dicksojo]

1 minute ago, coconut doug said:

 

He's a BBC producer. The story has been covered in many places. Obviously not very popular in UK.

 

What's the problem with the EU Times i'm not very familiar with it.

https://www.eutimes.net/about/
 

This is from the same section “Ideology
To make things clear, we DO endorse communism in its original Soviet Union form, we disavow Antifa as not real communists but as a bunch of Satanist schizophrenics who should all be sent to the Siberian gulags. We also support nationalism! We are both socialists and nationalists. Had the Axis and the USSR got along back in the 40s like they should have, the world would have been a totally different place now (for the good).”

 

Anything on this website is immediately thrown into question. 

 

[coconut doug]

8 minutes ago, dicksojo said:

https://www.eutimes.net/about/
 

This is from the same section “Ideology
To make things clear, we DO endorse communism in its original Soviet Union form, we disavow Antifa as not real communists but as a bunch of Satanist schizophrenics who should all be sent to the Siberian gulags. We also support nationalism! We are both socialists and nationalists. Had the Axis and the USSR got along back in the 40s like they should have, the world would have been a totally different place now (for the good).”

 

Anything on this website is immediately thrown into question. 

 

 

There are dozens of sites all around the world reporting the same thing. What cannot be in doubt is that this guy is a BBC producer and that he made the comment about the bombings being staged. Whether it is true or not might be a different matter but why would the guy say it if it he didn't think it was true? He was there on the ground none of his detractors were.

 

https://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-that-Riam-Dalati-a-BBC-Syria-producer-claims-that-the-gas-attack-incident-in-Douma-was-staged-by-the-rebels

https://news.cgtn.com/news/3d3d514d7a457a4e32457a6333566d54/index.html

https://www.orissapost.com/bbc-producer-says-footage-of-alleged-gas-attack-victims-in-syrias-douma-staged/

http://www.chinanews.se/index.php/content/index/pid/33/cid/9572.html

http://alwaght.com/en/News/149039/Scenes-of-Douma-Chemical-Attack-Were-Staged-BBC-Producer

[dicksojo]

2 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

 

There are dozens of sites all around the world reporting the same thing. What cannot be in doubt is that this guy is a BBC producer and that he made the comment about the bombings being staged. Whether it is true or not might be a different matter but why would the guy say it if it he didn't think it was true? He was there on the ground none of his detractors were.

 

https://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-that-Riam-Dalati-a-BBC-Syria-producer-claims-that-the-gas-attack-incident-in-Douma-was-staged-by-the-rebels

https://news.cgtn.com/news/3d3d514d7a457a4e32457a6333566d54/index.html

https://www.orissapost.com/bbc-producer-says-footage-of-alleged-gas-attack-victims-in-syrias-douma-staged/

http://www.chinanews.se/index.php/content/index/pid/33/cid/9572.html

http://alwaght.com/en/News/149039/Scenes-of-Douma-Chemical-Attack-Were-Staged-BBC-Producer

Nope.

[coconut doug]

55 minutes ago, dicksojo said:

Nope.

Do you have a point  to make?

[felix]

3 hours ago, coconut doug said:

 

I had a listen to No 4 (hoax producers) and i have to say it was little more than a character assassination of Vanessa Beeley.

I actually thought the title might address the issue of the BBC producer who claimed the the Douma bombing and response had been falsified. Of course i should have realised our state broadcaster would never recognise such a thing. https://www.eutimes.net/2019/02/bbc-producer-comes-forward-and-admits-assad-chemical-attack-was-fake/

 

 

I know what you mean, but No 4  fell just short of a charachter assassination imo. 

Beeley's an interesting figure.  She doesn't trust the BBC , and they wont  credit her for her experience in the area, ignoring her father's role as  Middle East advisor to Bevin in 1945 !

She's reported on the White Helmets for years.

The Douma bombing comes later in the series. Two members of the  Organsiation for Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) first responders team, thought Douma was suspicious, and the OPCW report, on the use of chemical weapons, remains controversial, having been amended  to suit a retaliation narrative. 

 

[Justin Z]

2 hours ago, coconut doug said:

Do you have a point  to make?

 

No; instead of addressing the claim, he's going after the source of the claim, because he doesn't have anything to disprove the claim and doesn't like the implications of the claim.

[coconut doug]

16 hours ago, Justin Z said:

 

No; instead of addressing the claim, he's going after the source of the claim, because he doesn't have anything to disprove the claim and doesn't like the implications of the claim.

 

There's the irony. The claim of falsification comes from a BBC producer. He is inviting us to disregard the claims form this person because they have been reported in a publication he does not approve of. Presumably if these claims had been made by the BBC that would have been o.k.

           The pertinent question is why were the BBC not endorsing or even reporting upon the findings of their only employee at the scene while simultaneously desperately trying to authenticate the views of a council resident in Coventry who operates under 3 names and has not been in Syria for over 20 years. Could it be that just like the BBC and The White helmets he is the recipient of large quantities of UK taxpayers money.

[Ulysses]

Information and disinformation.  The ebb and flow of fact and fiction.

 

My favourite detail of this piece?  That would be the pink VW Beetle with the  picture of Bashar al-Assad pasted in the back window.

 

BBC: Mayday: How the White Helmets and James Le Mesurier got pulled into a deadly battle for truth

[Doctor FinnBarr]

2 hours ago, Ulysses said:

Information and disinformation.  The ebb and flow of fact and fiction.

 

My favourite detail of this piece?  That would be the pink VW Beetle with the  picture of Bashar al-Assad pasted in the back window.

 

BBC: Mayday: How the White Helmets and James Le Mesurier got pulled into a deadly battle for truth

 

Would much prefer a pic of a "Beach *******"