Spencer Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 Just now, colinmaroon said: How do you know that? Your assumption! (You're not Spencer's sister are you???) You are starting to make yourself look like a very ignorant character Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwidoug Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 Says on bbc the cabbages made a 270k loss on a £7m turnover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hendricks Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 10 minutes ago, Spencer said: You bash on fella and do what you need to do I'm sure its one of the worst moments of your life having that sanctimonious numpty block you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spencer Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 1 minute ago, Hendricks said: I'm sure its one of the worst moments of your life having that sanctimonious numpty block you. Some of these threads are becoming ever more incredible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sooperstar Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 18 minutes ago, colinmaroon said: How do you know that? Your assumption! (You're not Spencer's sister are you???) I'm far more qualified to make that assumption than a random journalist. But if you want to have an unwavering belief that the finance available is from a bank then I won't look to STAND in your way. I guess time will tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spencer Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 2 minutes ago, Sooperstar said: I'm far more qualified to make that assumption than a random journalist. But if you want to have an unwavering belief that the finance available is from a bank then I won't look to STAND in your way. I guess time will tell. For all of the horrendous deals that LBG took a bath on in Scottish Football, the day they must have rubbed their hands in glee was the day UKIO Bankas transferred full and final settlement of Hearts o/s obligations I'd bet my left nut that the "loan" ain't being provided by a Bank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davemclaren Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 11 minutes ago, Spencer said: For all of the horrendous deals that LBG took a bath on in Scottish Football, the day they must have rubbed their hands in glee was the day UKIO Bankas transferred full and final settlement of Hearts o/s obligations I'd bet my left nut that the "loan" ain't being provided by a Bank I’d have to agree with you re the loan not being from a bank. However, I think it was HBoS that rubbed its hands with joy when Ukio took over the Debt. HboS hadn’t yet imploded by that point, by my reckoning.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spencer Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 2 minutes ago, davemclaren said: I’d have to agree with you re the loan not being from a bank. However, I think it was HBoS that rubbed its hands with joy when Ukio took over the Debt. HboS hadn’t yet imploded by that point, by my reckoning.. You are right. It would be BoS / HBOS at that time I think the deals done with Hibs and Dundee United was all legacy BoS exposure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 LBG did get the full whack back from RFC in 2011 (thanks to Craig Whyte), although they lost a tad more through their dealings with SDM.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trapper John McIntyre Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 48 minutes ago, colinmaroon said: Be amazed! You have no idea of the decision making process and, I seriously doubt you are in the banking business, unless of course you are Fred Goodwin! You are talking through a very large wind tunnel in your bahoochie! I really am sick to death of your constant nitpicking and ill-informed, no, UN-informed opinions. I am following my son and various others I know and putting your drivel on ignore. I'm fairly sure some God bothering hypocrite's censure wouldn't bother old Spence one jiffy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davemclaren Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 3 minutes ago, Spencer said: You are right. It would be BoS / HBOS at that time I think the deals done with Hibs and Dundee United was all legacy BoS exposure I think it was. boS liked football debt for some reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spencer Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 6 minutes ago, Footballfirst said: LBG did get the full whack back from RFC in 2011 (thanks to Craig Whyte), although they lost a tad more through their dealings with SDM.. Yes indeed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 1 hour ago, Sexton Hardcastle said: Hibs post a loss. Financial doping or nah? Had a quick look over on the dark side and they seem happy with the loss seeing as though they were a championship side. If we knock them out of the Scottish cup and they have a bad run in the league they'll suffer another - heavier - loss this year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sooperstar Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 22 minutes ago, Jeff said: Had a quick look over on the dark side and they seem happy with the loss seeing as though they were a championship side. If we knock them out of the Scottish cup and they have a bad run in the league they'll suffer another - heavier - loss this year A Championship side charging top league prices and with the highest attendances they've had for years. And still a loss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 2 minutes ago, Sooperstar said: A Championship side charging top league prices and with the highest attendances they've had for years. And still a loss. Not read the accounts personally but have heard the Cummings money was also included? Can anyone confirm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maroonlegions Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 http://www.deadlinenews.co.uk/2017/11/19/gift-2-5-million-helps-hearts-post-2-3-million-profit-despite-construction-new-main-stand-turnover-rises-11-3-million-tynecastle-ann-budge-callum-paterson/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowmans_Boot Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 5 hours ago, Jambo92 said: Profit is profit! I'm sure we would have all been accepting of a loss given the fact we have just built a new main stand so fail to see this anything of than positive news Profit is not simply profit when we include a £2.5M donation towards the new stand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazzas right boot Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 How the **** did this thread turn negative? The only question is- get some of that profit spent on players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowmans_Boot Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 18 hours ago, Kiwidoug said: I'm sorry but I think we may actually be pretty much in agreement. I'm sure you didn't dispute the statements of Ann Budge when she took over that the entire club was rotten from top to bottom. That clearly meant that infrastructure spending was inevitable. The money spent on the stand can't be spent on the squad. Despite that I agree that our on field performance has to improve dramatically over the next 2 years. Even with the infrastructure commitments we still have more money than the vast majority of clubs could ever dream of. The point I tried to make was that in a couple of years we will be spending more on players and less on building than we are now. We most probably do not disagree in how we see the club: due to focus on the new stand, there will be another couple of years (minimum) of poor quality on the park. Where we diiffer, however, is that you see this as being acceptable. I most certainly do not. As a support we helped to save the club, we raised £000s through numerous fundraisers, we renewed STs when there was no football/entertainment reason for doing so and we all continue to contribute monthly to FOH. The club chose to overspend on the new stand, in order to make it as perfect as possible. There has to be a balance between the new stand and what we watch from/opposite it. All fans really care about is the football on display: this has not been made a priority of any significance and needs to be made one immediately. If not then the new stand will not sell out, hospitality will be a hard sell and so the benefits of having this new stand will be minimal, for the next 5-10 years, anyway. I dont want to be the era of Hearts fans who sacrificed a decent team for the greater good i.e. success in 2030. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colinmaroon Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 2 hours ago, Trapper John McIntyre said: I'm fairly sure some God bothering hypocrite's censure wouldn't bother old Spence one jiffy. Ah, the intolerance of tolerance! The hypocritical signature of the secular humanist bigots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoda Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 1 hour ago, Sooperstar said: A Championship side charging top league prices and with the highest attendances they've had for years. And still a loss. Spending beyond their means? Cheturz! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Dan Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 and Hibs post a loss!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingantti1874 Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 1 hour ago, Bowmans_Boot said: We most probably do not disagree in how we see the club: due to focus on the new stand, there will be another couple of years (minimum) of poor quality on the park. Where we diiffer, however, is that you see this as being acceptable. I most certainly do not. As a support we helped to save the club, we raised £000s through numerous fundraisers, we renewed STs when there was no football/entertainment reason for doing so and we all continue to contribute monthly to FOH. The club chose to overspend on the new stand, in order to make it as perfect as possible. There has to be a balance between the new stand and what we watch from/opposite it. All fans really care about is the football on display: this has not been made a priority of any significance and needs to be made one immediately. If not then the new stand will not sell out, hospitality will be a hard sell and so the benefits of having this new stand will be minimal, for the next 5-10 years, anyway. I dont want to be the era of Hearts fans who sacrificed a decent team for the greater good i.e. success in 2030. Why 5/10 years? Worst case we walk away with £1.7m debt.. I think it was predicted the stand would see an increase in t/o of £2mpa per annum. Combined with a reeuxtuin in costs it will be hugely beneficial in 2/3 years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAMMY1980 Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 Heeds in the clouds mate...some doo and gloom merchants on here.Another couple of years of poor quality,behave.Only for example Mcginn,Crawford,and another 2 out of contract players in summer and we would be in a state to compete with hibs again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowmans_Boot Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 4 minutes ago, kingantti1874 said: Why 5/10 years? Worst case we walk away with £1.7m debt.. I think it was predicted the stand would see an increase in t/o of £2mpa per annum. Combined with a reeuxtuin in costs it will be hugely beneficial in 2/3 years Awful quality on the park, combined with no excitement around the club will most definitely not attract strong hospitality sales. Or ST sales, for that matter (the selling point of last season: "you get to sit in/look at a new stand" will not last very long). Two further years of awful quality on the pitch will impact massively on our progress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAMMY1980 Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 1 minute ago, Bowmans_Boot said: Awful quality on the park, combined with no excitement around the club will most definitely not attract strong hospitality sales. Or ST sales, for that matter (the selling point of last season: "you get to sit in/look at a new stand" will not last very long). Two further years of awful quality on the pitch will impact massively on our progress. Bull Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Dan Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 Only a short sighted, I want it all now fan wont see the bigger long term future. Yes we're crap on field at the moment but I am in no doubt we will improve as funds start to filter through to the playing side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowmans_Boot Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 3 minutes ago, JAMMY1980 said: Bull You think ST sales will remain the same if we finish bottom 6 and are booted out of the SC by Hibs yet again? Hospitality sales will go through the roof for a bottom 6 side? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Albert Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 19 minutes ago, Bowmans_Boot said: Awful quality on the park, combined with no excitement around the club will most definitely not attract strong hospitality sales. Or ST sales, for that matter (the selling point of last season: "you get to sit in/look at a new stand" will not last very long). Two further years of awful quality on the pitch will impact massively on our progress. Agrèed. It is easy to predict increased turmover But this depends on selling far more hospitality seats and premium sts at very much higher prices than we have ever seen before. without a winning team or at the very least one that is worth watching (or more mysterious donations) it is going to be tough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwidoug Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 1 hour ago, Bowmans_Boot said: We most probably do not disagree in how we see the club: due to focus on the new stand, there will be another couple of years (minimum) of poor quality on the park. Where we diiffer, however, is that you see this as being acceptable. I most certainly do not. As a support we helped to save the club, we raised £000s through numerous fundraisers, we renewed STs when there was no football/entertainment reason for doing so and we all continue to contribute monthly to FOH. The club chose to overspend on the new stand, in order to make it as perfect as possible. There has to be a balance between the new stand and what we watch from/opposite it. All fans really care about is the football on display: this has not been made a priority of any significance and needs to be made one immediately. If not then the new stand will not sell out, hospitality will be a hard sell and so the benefits of having this new stand will be minimal, for the next 5-10 years, anyway. I dont want to be the era of Hearts fans who sacrificed a decent team for the greater good i.e. success in 2030. No. We completely agree. My point is valid that the place was run down but doing it up should not be at the expense of the team any more than absolutely necessary. Like you I expect, I would be happy to be standing in a bucket of excrement in driving rain and freezing cold if we were giving Hibs a thrashing on the park. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowmans_Boot Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 1 minute ago, Kiwidoug said: No. We completely agree. My point is valid that the place was run down but doing it up should not be at the expense of the team any more than absolutely necessary. Like you I expect, I would be happy to be standing in a bucket of excrement in driving rain and freezing cold if we were giving Hibs a thrashing on the park. You are entirely correct, we do agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowmans_Boot Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 4 minutes ago, Francis Albert said: Agrèed. It is easy to predict increased turmover But this depends on selling far more hospitality seats and premium sts at very much higher prices than we have ever seen before. without a winning team or at the very least one that is worth watching (or more mysterious donations) it is going to be tough. Some people seem to think that having excellent hospitality means that we will sell it out automatically. This is not the case and there needs to be a buzz and excitement around the club to do so. Bottom 6, awful football and out the SC early (yet again) generates neither buzz nor excitement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwindonJambo Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 The main stand had to be dealt with. The club had no choice whatsoever, their hand having been forced by the council’s stated plan to redevelop the nursery. Had we let them go ahead, we would have been severely limited in what we could do when we did finally get round to building a new stand. So this means that the stand has been planned, designed and built rather hurriedly. I was dead against continuing with the shoogly high cost maintenance old stand and ploughing all available resources into the team. That is self defeating short termism and just kicks the can down the road. BB could very well have a point about the £2m or so element of the overspend which was down to Ann Budge changing the spec mid project. I would hope that she has a realistic idea of how to plug the gap. The playing resources will take a short term hit while the new stand is in the works for sure and I fully accept that as we had no choice but to build it. However, there’s zero doubt that those playing resources could have been managed far better than they have been. I cannot see us finishing in the Top 6 and it would not be a shock if we got dragged into the relegation fight. I don’t think we’ll go down though. Even with the necessary reduced resources, said resources are still greater than most of the league and,the current level of performance is very unsatisfactory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psychedelicropcircle Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 On 18/11/2017 at 18:13, Kiwidoug said: No. It was me. ? Sterling or Zimbabwean pounds just that 2.5m ZP might be a hunner Sterling ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Dan Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 17 minutes ago, SwindonJambo said: The main stand had to be dealt with. The club had no choice whatsoever, their hand having been forced by the council’s stated plan to redevelop the nursery. Had we let them go ahead, we would have been severely limited in what we could do when we did finally get round to building a new stand. So this means that the stand has been planned, designed and built rather hurriedly. I was dead against continuing with the shoogly high cost maintenance old stand and ploughing all available resources into the team. That is self defeating short termism and just kicks the can down the road. BB could very well have a point about the £2m or so element of the overspend which was down to Ann Budge changing the spec mid project. I would hope that she has a realistic idea of how to plug the gap. The playing resources will take a short term hit while the new stand is in the works for sure and I fully accept that as we had no choice but to build it. However, there’s zero doubt that those playing resources could have been managed far better than they have been. I cannot see us finishing in the Top 6 and it would not be a shock if we got dragged into the relegation fight. I don’t think we’ll go down though. Even with the necessary reduced resources, said resources are still greater than most of the league and,the current level of performance is very unsatisfactory. Some folk on here cant see the wood for the trees. No vision or grasp of the facts never mind the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarmerTweedy Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 2 hours ago, Bowmans_Boot said: We most probably do not disagree in how we see the club: due to focus on the new stand, there will be another couple of years (minimum) of poor quality on the park. Where we diiffer, however, is that you see this as being acceptable. I most certainly do not. As a support we helped to save the club, we raised £000s through numerous fundraisers, we renewed STs when there was no football/entertainment reason for doing so and we all continue to contribute monthly to FOH. The club chose to overspend on the new stand, in order to make it as perfect as possible. There has to be a balance between the new stand and what we watch from/opposite it. All fans really care about is the football on display: this has not been made a priority of any significance and needs to be made one immediately. If not then the new stand will not sell out, hospitality will be a hard sell and so the benefits of having this new stand will be minimal, for the next 5-10 years, anyway. I dont want to be the era of Hearts fans who sacrificed a decent team for the greater good i.e. success in 2030. I don't think they were looking to make it as perfect as possible, rather to make it (when finished at least!) fully functional, and not have significant problem issues that would have to then be dealt with at a later date, or possibly impact on future revenue. I don't have knowledge of any particular things that put it over the original budget but if, for instance, toilet facilities for the hospitality lounges were felt to be inadequate going by the original plans, not addressing that could impact future revenue, as it's entirely possible that guests paying big money for top facilities and then finding they've got to queue for ten minutes to use the loo would decide not to come back! Adding more loos wouldn't mean they're making it 'as perfect as possible', just that they're making it right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarmerTweedy Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 1 hour ago, SwindonJambo said: The main stand had to be dealt with. The club had no choice whatsoever, their hand having been forced by the council’s stated plan to redevelop the nursery. Had we let them go ahead, we would have been severely limited in what we could do when we did finally get round to building a new stand. So this means that the stand has been planned, designed and built rather hurriedly. I was dead against continuing with the shoogly high cost maintenance old stand and ploughing all available resources into the team. That is self defeating short termism and just kicks the can down the road. BB could very well have a point about the £2m or so element of the overspend which was down to Ann Budge changing the spec mid project. I would hope that she has a realistic idea of how to plug the gap. The playing resources will take a short term hit while the new stand is in the works for sure and I fully accept that as we had no choice but to build it. However, there’s zero doubt that those playing resources could have been managed far better than they have been. I cannot see us finishing in the Top 6 and it would not be a shock if we got dragged into the relegation fight. I don’t think we’ll go down though. Even with the necessary reduced resources, said resources are still greater than most of the league and,the current level of performance is very unsatisfactory. I think you're being hugely pessimistic there. We're only just outside the top 6 having played just one actual home game so far. Personally, I'm confident we'll end up in the top 6 and think there's practically zero chance of us being in a relegation fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S Form Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 33 minutes ago, FarmerTweedy said: I think you're being hugely pessimistic there. We're only just outside the top 6 having played just one actual home game so far. Personally, I'm confident we'll end up in the top 6 and think there's practically zero chance of us being in a relegation fight. I wish I shared your optimism. One point against Kilmarnock and Partick in our last two games is relegation zone form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allowayjambo1874 Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 4 hours ago, Jeff said: Had a quick look over on the dark side and they seem happy with the loss seeing as though they were a championship side. If we knock them out of the Scottish cup and they have a bad run in the league they'll suffer another - heavier - loss this year Unfortunately that won’t be the case, the prize money differential between the championship and premier league is huge, even if they end up 10th based on crowds, league prize money & LC run they will have significantly increased their turnover. Sorry, wish it wasn’t so but that’s the reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 2 minutes ago, Allowayjambo1874 said: Unfortunately that won’t be the case, the prize money differential between the championship and premier league is huge, even if they end up 10th based on crowds, league prize money & LC run they will have significantly increased their turnover. Sorry, wish it wasn’t so but that’s the reality. You'd have to assume that theyre paying higher wages though no? They had 2 good cup runs last season too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allowayjambo1874 Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 3 minutes ago, Jeff said: You'd have to assume that theyre paying higher wages though no? They had 2 good cup runs last season too Well let’s hope so, don’t want to go off on a tangent talking about those ***** accounts on this thread! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbofordGHC Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 6 hours ago, maroonlegions said: http://www.deadlinenews.co.uk/2017/11/19/gift-2-5-million-helps-hearts-post-2-3-million-profit-despite-construction-new-main-stand-turnover-rises-11-3-million-tynecastle-ann-budge-callum-paterson/ £2.6 million from our brief run in the Europa League can't be right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwidoug Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 A serious matter. According to an expert accountancy website i visit from time to time, our accounts show we stole £22,000 from Save the Children and had the temerity to include it in the accounts. Shameful. On the other hand one contributor to that site expresses the view that FOH, Is absolutely taking the pish out of HSL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PTBCAL Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 4 hours ago, RobbofordGHC said: £2.6 million from our brief run in the Europa League can't be right? I think includes monies due iro of our league finish but I may be wrong!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allowayjambo1874 Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 5 hours ago, RobbofordGHC said: £2.6 million from our brief run in the Europa League can't be right? It’s not FF explains it in earlier post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarmerTweedy Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 7 hours ago, S Form said: I wish I shared your optimism. One point against Kilmarnock and Partick in our last two games is relegation zone form. The reality is that every team's form and results go up and down over the course of a season. Our last four results have been very poor, and performances not a lot better, but over the course of the season so far, both performances and results have merited a mid-table position, and again, that's with having played only one proper home game. People can start worrying about relegation battles if they like, but it's not going to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Dave Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 57 minutes ago, PTBCAL said: I think includes monies due iro of our league finish but I may be wrong!!!! Yes. I think thats all prize money so SPFL league, both cups, Europe plus solidarity payment (Celtic getting to champions league), Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beast Boy Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 Extremely disappointing to have to read innuendo about implied misappropriation of FoH money and nepotism by the club, from supposed Hearts supporters, on a Hearts forum. It’s like Hibs.net on here these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Gentleman Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 11 hours ago, Bowmans_Boot said: Profit is not simply profit when we include a £2.5M donation towards the new stand. Could someone explain to the mathematically challenged (aka, me) why it was necessary to include this amount in the profit and loss account, when FoH contributions aren't? That aside, it's reassuring to know that some parts of the club are in excellent condition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramrod Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 10 hours ago, Bowmans_Boot said: You think ST sales will remain the same if we finish bottom 6 and are booted out of the SC by Hibs yet again? Hospitality sales will go through the roof for a bottom 6 side? Yes actually football fans are fickle , a few summer signings , pictures of the completed interior of the new stand and a few positive noises coming out the club and of we go again . Although I do accept the product on the pitch is dreadful atm nobody can argue otherwise , that can change between now and next June though tbf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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