Government proposal on drink

[red21]

Can't believe they actually think the measures they are suggesting will help rid Scotland of its 'drink problem' - Kenny MacAskill on Newsnight didny exactly sell their ideas to me very well either.

 

How about properly enforcing the laws that already exist?

 

If these are the people in charge of the country I really do fear for the future of Scotland.

[Praha06]

Can't believe they actually think the measures they are suggesting will help rid Scotland of its 'drink problem' - Kenny MacAskill on Newsnight didny exactly sell their ideas to me very well either.

 

How about properly enforcing the laws that already exist?

 

If these are the people in charge of the country I really do fear for the future of Scotland.

 

Whats the gig? I saw something about making off-licences over 21s only but havent seen much else said about it.

[systemx]

Watchout mate the Togster will be on to duff you up for having the temerity to criticise SNP policy.The wrath of ECK will be on you.

 

On a more serious note you are exactly right .Enforce current licensing laws on selling to under agers strictly(Immediate loss of license enforced by a specially convened lic.board for 2 years will stop them selling to youths immediatelly)Banning 18-21year olds will cause havoc when the real problem is 13-17y.o.s.

 

Mccaskill was all over the shop as usual and as I have posted on another thread the statement today from Sturgeon that "Alcohol is no longer an individual choice" is a Facist statement.

 

Watching oor Kenny explaining why a student or a squaddie coming back from Afghanistan willl not be able to go to the offy for a bottle of wine or a few beers did not make for good viewing as was his attempt to justify random breath testing so much for the party defence of civil liberties last week

[jambos are go!]

Seems to me that supermarkets are 100 times better at refusing to serve underage drinkers than local shops. As far as price goes the young drinkers are therefore already having to pay higher prices than supermarkets and may indeed represent a significant proportion of turnover to smallshops.

 

Strict enforcement and license removal must surely be tried alongside health education. Mind you the supermarkets have ignored requests/warnings about cut price deals I presume because they bring in business. Again profit rules as with the small shops.

 

McKaskill did also touch on the older social as well as younger anti social drinkers. Cheap Drink means most ordinary folk can sup on their sofas damaging their health but not their wallets. Its not easy.

 

Bottom line to me is that your old enough to vote your old enough to do anything any other voter can do.

[Jam Tarts 1874]

Watchout mate the Togster will be on to duff you up for having the temerity to criticise SNP policy.The wrath of ECK will be on you.

 

On a more serious note you are exactly right .Enforce current licensing laws on selling to under agers strictly(Immediate loss of license enforced by a specially convened lic.board for 2 years will stop them selling to youths immediatelly)Banning 18-21year olds will cause havoc when the real problem is 13-17y.o.s.

 

Mccaskill was all over the shop as usual and as I have posted on another thread the statement today from Sturgeon that "Alcohol is no longer an individual choice" is a Facist statement.

 

Watching oor Kenny explaining why a student or a squaddie coming back from Afghanistan willl not be able to go to the offy for a bottle of wine or a few beers did not make for good viewing as was his attempt to justify random breath testing so much for the party defence of civil liberties last week

 

 

I look at it as being a decent step to take (I hate the SNP by the way so not defending them at all). The higher age limit will make it easier for local shopkeepers to say no to the 16 & 17 year olds.

 

It is almost impossible for the Police and the Council to find and take action against all the shopkeepers who are knowingly selling to under age kids, so something else needs to be tried.

 

Obviously the biggest problem is that we in the UK have a very unhealthy drinking culture, trying to restrict access to drink for teenagers is only a very small part of the puzzle.

[Dr Ian Malcolm]

So those under 21 (but over 18 obv.) can't go out and buy alcohol to drink in their own home/ a friend's home, where they aren't affecting anyone else and, on the most part, are able to have a few drinks without trashing the place, but they can however buy as much drink as they want in pubs/clubs, where they are with hundreds of other drinkers, not of of whom will be sensible enough to behave themselves. In which scenario is there more likely to be any trouble?

 

Raising the age limit is just going to create far more potential (and actual) underage drinkers. If its too difficult for shop staff to tell the difference between a 16 year old and 18 year old, what chance do they have of determining whether someone is 19, 20 or 21?

 

I'm not even sure if age is that much of an issue. When some people get pished, there's a chance they'll become aggressive, cause trouble etc whether they're 16 or 60.

 

Make it compulsory to ID anyone who looks under 25 (and I mean legally compulsary, not just "initiatives" like think 21). I don't understand why people get offended when asked for ID - 99% of the time you need to show it on the door of a nightclub, what's so different about a supermarket checkout?

[Jam Tarts 1874]

Raising the age limit is just going to create far more potential (and actual) underage drinkers. If its too difficult for shop staff to tell the difference between a 16 year old and 18 year old, what chance do they have of determining whether someone is 19, 20 or 21?

 

I'm not even sure if age is that much of an issue. When some people get pished, there's a chance they'll become aggressive, cause trouble etc whether they're 16 or 60.

 

I think that there is a big difference between how a 16 year old looks and how old a 21 year old looks. However I don't think that there is much difference between a 16 year old and an 18 year old.

 

This is the whole point of trying to discourange under age drinkers from getting into the habit of binge drinking. Drinking to excess leads to violence and it has to be said that the habit of drinking as much as the body can take is a habit that many people develop when they are still teenagers, so what's wrong with trying to cut down on teenage drinking?

[Stuart Lyon]

Kenny MacAskill -is this the same person that was allegedly convicted of urinating in the street while under the influence of drink at a Scotland V England game when not a teenager?

[Stuart Lyon]

Correction - he was held in custody on suspicion of being drunk and disorderly for the duration of the S v E match in 1995 but apparently was not charged! Is that because he told them who he was?

[Doctor FinnBarr]

Watchout mate the Togster will be on to duff you up for having the temerity to criticise SNP policy.The wrath of ECK will be on you.

 

On a more serious note you are exactly right .Enforce current licensing laws on selling to under agers strictly(Immediate loss of license enforced by a specially convened lic.board for 2 years will stop them selling to youths immediatelly)Banning 18-21year olds will cause havoc when the real problem is 13-17y.o.s.

 

Mccaskill was all over the shop as usual and as I have posted on another thread the statement today from Sturgeon that "Alcohol is no longer an individual choice" is a Facist statement.

 

Watching oor Kenny explaining why a student or a squaddie coming back from Afghanistan willl not be able to go to the offy for a bottle of wine or a few beers did not make for good viewing as was his attempt to justify random breath testing so much for the party defence of civil liberties last week

 

Wish they,d stop going on about random breath testing as its been going on for at least 30 years.

[Dr Ian Malcolm]

I think that there is a big difference between how a 16 year old looks and how old a 21 year old looks. However I don't think that there is much difference between a 16 year old and an 18 year old.

 

This is the whole point of trying to discourange under age drinkers from getting into the habit of binge drinking. Drinking to excess leads to violence and it has to be said that the habit of drinking as much as the body can take is a habit that many people develop when they are still teenagers, so what's wrong with trying to cut down on teenage drinking?

 

 

 

Thats what I'm getting at - there's even less of a difference between 21 and 18 year olds, so its going to be even more difficult for shopkeepers to avoid selling to underage drinkers.

 

Agree with your second point but surely properly enforcing the current laws would help without punishing those 18-20 year olds who can drink without smashing people/places up?

[Tane]

Much in the same way you receive a National Insurance card just before your 16th birthday, they should give you a "type of" ID card just before you turn 18. Then all shopkeepers/bar staff have to do is ID everybody who looks under the age of... let's say 25...

 

I'm probably making it sound easier than it is, but they're going a bit bats**t crazy with this.

[Romanov Stole My Pension]

The proposal is daft, I'm 18, at University, working part time, living away from family and they can't trust me to drink in my own home! Completely undermines any trust they have in 18-21 year olds. If they can't trust me to drink safely in my house then why am I still allowed to vote? Surely more crimes are committed by drunks when they're out clubbing rather than in their houses.

[djf]

Kenny MacAskill -is this the same person that was allegedly convicted of urinating in the street while under the influence of drink at a Scotland V England game when not a teenager?

 

Indeed

 

The same one who has spent the past however many years arranging buses soaked with alcohol for every Scotland home game.

 

Do as I say, not as I do indeed.

 

The first (second?) poster was spot on. Enforce the laws we already have.

 

Drinking shouldn't be against the law. Drinking then acting in an inappropriate fashion should be. It's not difficult.

[Stuart Lyon]

All you youngsters know the answer tell them you won't vote for them and do it en masse. Students especially should be able to organise some massive campaign to tell the SNP that while we all support the need to do something about those who abuse alchohol they are taking too broad an approach to gain public support.

[Therapist]

I find this hilarious.

 

The vast majority of SNP supporters are yoofs who are not yet mature enough to see beyond the perceived romance and Braveheart-type stuff of an independent Scotland.

 

And now the SNP are going to take their supporters' bevvy away. :)

[Deevers]

More Government interference in the lives of ordinary people.

 

As usual they are hell bent on making the vast majority pay for the unacceptable behaviour of the minority. Maybe it's about time the Government looked at finding real punishments for people that over step the mark instead on making us all pay.

[BigC]

The editorial in the Independent said everything that needed to be said in my opinion:

 

The culture of binge drinking is a plague on Britain. It causes misery in some of the country's most deprived areas and transforms even the most genteel town centres into no-go areas at weekends. With this bleak context in mind, it is understandable that ministers in Scotland are considering an increase in the legal age for purchasing alcohol from off-licences and supermarkets from 18 to 21. The role of alcohol in fuelling yobbish behaviour north of the border is exacerbated by its effect on health. Scotland has one of the fastest growing rates of liver cirrhosis in the world. Does it not make sense to make alcohol harder to get hold of, if only for teenagers?

 

 

The answer is no. While one can sympathise with politicians wanting to take radical action to curb binge drinking, the remedy does not lie in simplistic legislative responses. Just as new 24-hour drinking laws did not lead to the boom in alcohol-related crime that some scaremongering press predicted, so raising the legal age of buying alcohol from off-licences will not bring about a dramatic decline in the type of anti-social behaviour associated with binge drinking.

 

There are several practical problems with the policy under consideration by the Scottish executive.

 

Allowing those aged between 18 and 21 to drink alcohol but not purchase it makes no sense. The fact that they would be able to buy alcohol in pubs and clubs would further confuse the situation. It also seems absurd that an 18-year-old will be able to vote, smoke and drink, but not buy alcohol from a supermarket.

 

The emphasis should be on enforcing the law, not changing it. Ample powers already exist to tackle the effects of binge drinking. In many cases, binge drinkers are underage teenagers. The police already have the power to move them on from public spaces and confiscate their alcohol.

 

They could also take more action against off-licences selling alcohol to the underage, or against those passing on alcohol to those not old enough to buy it for themselves. The main flaw to the proposal, however, is that it fails to grasp that Britain's binge-drinking problem, shared elsewhere in northern Europe, is a cultural one.

 

As such, the key to fighting it lies not in fiddling with the statute book, but in fostering a longer-term change in attitudes. Such a shift can only be achieved through a concerted education campaign that makes all of us rethink our relationship with alcohol. It is no quick fix, but it remains the only realistic way of creating a more responsible attitude towards drinking in Britain.

 

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/leading-articles/leading-article-simplistic-response-to-a-complex-problem-848512.html

[coppercrutch]

I think we need to open up access to alchohol instead of hiding it. Tell a child they can't have it and they will want it even more. Same for these ideas about 'hiding' cigarettes in shops. Nonsense.

 

Bevvy needs to be seen as acceptabe if you can take it in a reasonable amount.

 

Of course our nations obsession with getting wasted beyond belief just for the hell of it does not help......

 

So back to square one we go..............

[Das Root]

I think we need to open up access to alchohol instead of hiding it. Tell a child they can't have it and they will want it even more. Same for these ideas about 'hiding' cigarettes in shops. Nonsense.

 

Bevvy needs to be seen as acceptabe if you can take it in a reasonable amount.

 

Of course our nations obsession with getting wasted beyond belief just for the hell of it does not help......

 

So back to square one we go..............

 

 

 

Bang on. In Europe they have far better drinking laws than us and they don't have kids smashed out of their faces. Kids have wine for meals after 14/16yrs and such and get used to it, and don't see it as something they need to go for by the gallon.

 

Tax or even better ban sh*t such as Buckfast, Pulse and all other cheap disgusting ciders / alchopops.

 

Another thing would be to stop cutting school funding, introduce a formal 'prom' and similar to promote staying on at school until 18yrs, give the kids something to look forward to and achieve with graduations and such. We're so backward here when it comes to this, it's all (stupidly easy) exams where 40% gets you a pass if not less.

 

If we started them off better in schools, more activities, greater emphasis on sports with scholarships to Uni, even down to the basics of reading, writing and 'rithmetic we could educate the p*sshead culture right out of society without the need for ludicrous 'can't buy at Asda but cool for the pub' legislation.

[Jimmy McNulty]

Upping drinking age to 21 won't work -- see USA for an example.

[Stuart Lyon]

Why ban Buckfast? When I worked in a grocers shop Buckfast and Sanatogen were popular 'tonic' wines bought by the elderly. Because it is being abused by some shouldn't be used as an excuse to deprive those who drink it for the health benefits they believe it gives. I have never tried it myself.

[jambos are go!]

More denial concentrating on youth drinking. Lets have a debate on the example Mum and Dad are setting. Its mostly their livers that are costing the NHS an avoidable fortune.

[I P Knightley]

 

This is the whole point of trying to discourange under age drinkers from getting into the habit of binge drinking. Drinking to excess leads to violence and it has to be said that the habit of drinking as much as the body can take is a habit that many people develop when they are still teenagers, so what's wrong with trying to cut down on teenage drinking?

 

Not having a go here, JT, as I agree with many of the points you and others have raised so far. I'm simply pointing out a common error/misconception/scare story that appears when arguments are made in this type of discussion.

 

Drinking to excess sometimes leads to violence but, pointed out elsewhere is the fact that it could be a teenager or it could be a pensioner who turns nasty on the bevvy.

 

As a teenager (late 16, through 17 & onwards), I was frequently heavily bevvied in and around Edinburgh. I can safely say that I never once turned to violence and nor do I have any lasting physical or mental problems resulting from my "alcohol abuse". I had a lot of fun and a lot of bad hangovers.

 

There was probably a lot of high-spirited behaviour that passers-by found rowdy or unacceptable (there was a thread on daft things done when drunk) which may not have happened sober but, equally, a lot that would have happened just because we were young and out for a laugh.

 

It's a British thing to glorify getting pi55ed of your chops and it's definitely a whole lot more widespread now than it was 25 years ago.

 

Afraid I don't have an answer but I'm very conscious of the problem as my kids grow up and am trying to be as open as possible with them about booze, giving them sips of beer here and there and a tiny glass of fizzy wine on birthdays etc.

 

One thing for sure, messing with the age limits at which they can buy the stuff will make no difference whatsoever to finding boozers brawling and chundering all over town centres.

[Craig_]

The Independent's article touches on it, but it's undoubtedly a cultural problem, with the main issue being that it's acceptable to act like an a***hole when drunk in this country. You only need to walk along the Cowgate on a Saturday night to see all manner of 'anti-social' behaviour, with Police all around who're not prepared to intervene. A few years of zero-tolerance to this problem would soon change attitudes!

 

And well said Ivanawfyticklykov - how come I can manage to get into some ridiculous states, yet never seem to start fights outside kebab shops?!

[Taffin]

I look at it as being a decent step to take (I hate the SNP by the way so not defending them at all). The higher age limit will make it easier for local shopkeepers to say no to the 16 & 17 year olds.

It is almost impossible for the Police and the Council to find and take action against all the shopkeepers who are knowingly selling to under age kids, so something else needs to be tried.

 

Obviously the biggest problem is that we in the UK have a very unhealthy drinking culture, trying to restrict access to drink for teenagers is only a very small part of the puzzle.

 

Its already easy.

Shopkeeper: 'do you have any accepted id?'

Purchaser: 'no'

Shopkeeper: 'I can't sell it to you then.'

[Taffin]

]I think that there is a big difference between how a 16 year old looks and how old a 21 year old looks. However I don't think that there is much difference between a 16 year old and an 18 year old.

[/b]

This is the whole point of trying to discourange under age drinkers from getting into the habit of binge drinking. Drinking to excess leads to violence and it has to be said that the habit of drinking as much as the body can take is a habit that many people develop when they are still teenagers' date=' so what's wrong with trying to cut down on teenage drinking?[/quote']

 

But is there a big difference between a 20 year old and a 21 year old?

 

It will just cause the same problem but at a higher age level.

 

Anway, the day before its enforced I'm going to buy as many cheap crates from Asda as my bank balance allows.

[Toggie88]

I find this hilarious.

 

The vast majority of SNP supporters are yoofs who are not yet mature enough to see beyond the perceived romance and Braveheart-type stuff of an independent Scotland.

 

And now the SNP are going to take their supporters' bevvy away. :)

 

The SNP actually has a low level of support from those <25.

 

I actually agree with the majority of this thread. It won't work.

[I P Knightley]

 

And well said Ivanawfyticklykov - how come I can manage to get into some ridiculous states, yet never seem to start fights outside kebab shops?!

 

And that's you mixing booze with kebabs - a potentially explosive cocktail!!

[ecjambo]

Educating young people into the dangers of underage drinking needs to be looked at. Also giving 13-17 year olds things to do at the weekend, especially Friday and Saturday nights would get them off the streets and into a safe environment and most importantly away from drink.

 

In the places I drink young people (18-25) seem to behave themselves most of the time and it is older people who have had too much to drink getting themselves in bother. Either fighting or having too much drink they need an ambulance.

 

Raising the age of buying drink to 21 will not solve the problem. Either will ending the promotions on cheap beer. The government doesnt realise that the people buying these beer promotions (2 packs of 20 for ?16 etc) are people who are going to enjoy it in the comfort of their homes and are not likely to go out fighting or end up in hospital from drinking too much.

[Flimsy]

I could go on and on about this issue but I'll try and be brief. Whether aged 18 or 80 there are a significant number of Scots who have a condition called dipsomania which basically means when they drink alcohol they don't know when or how to stop. Many reading this post will have this, you will almost certainly know several people who do and I've no doubt many Government ministers are dipsomaniacs also. IMO if everybody drunk alcohol in moderation it would practically eliminate the booze culture in this country, A & E departments would be under much less pressure and our health record would improve dramatically. Education is the answer but who's going to listen especially if the educators are hypocrites? Scotland has gone too far down the road and it's people don't want to take a step back and look at their drinking habits. The UK is a joke when it comes to alcohol abuse and we're too busy getting ****ed to do anything about it.

[Chuck Berry]

The editorial in the Independent said everything that needed to be said in my opinion:

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/leading-articles/leading-article-simplistic-response-to-a-complex-problem-848512.html

 

Needless to say the Independent have it wrong.

 

A 6 week pilot scheme was run in Armadale, where anyone under-21 could not buy off sales from Friday night to Monday morning, ie the weekend.

 

The petty crime rate and anti-social behaviour in the town dropped dramatically during that period as there was no longer anywhere for those that cause the bother to make "impulse" buys. When the pilot sheme ended, the anti-social behaviour returned to previous levels.

 

At the moment, the Government want to extend the pilot scheme to other areas to, I assume, test the results elsewhere.

 

U21's, if they want a drink at home over the weekend, can but their drink up until Friday night, ie plan ahead.

 

This can all go hand-in-hand with more education for youngsters and stricter licensing contols, they are not mutually exclusive.

 

We had 10 years of Labour Goverment where the problems escalated, at least the SNP are looking at other ways to tackle the issue.

[Chuck Berry]

The SNP actually has a low level of support from those <25.

 

Do you have a long to some stats for that?

[doctor jambo]

The problem is not entirely with the kids

It is with the adults

The older population in this country drink far too much and are obsessed with pubs, drinking and getting drunk

If the parents cannot lead by example why expect the kids to do what they cannot?

This idea that A&E is full of paralytic youngsters is only half the picture

sure it happens , but the place is also full of middle aged and elderly people off thier faces who have fallen, got into fights etc

It is too easy to blame the young and scape goat them for the inadequacies of our own generations

Go into any pub during the day and you will find them full of older people drinking- that is the example we are setting, and it aint a good one

[super_vlad]

Right, for a start any one who thinks that shopkeepers willing or on purpose sell to under agers is having a laugh! I've about 10 years experience in almost everything to do for drink.I've worked in offies, supermarkets, imports, exporters, bars and brewers ! NO one goes out of there way to supply under 18 years with booze.

 

If anything the small indiviual stores are better at dealing with under agers because it is there lifehood on the line everytime they sell to a under agers. Supermarkets may offer better training, but the nupties on the tills will not give a **** most of the time. When i used to work for a certain supermarket we fired 4 members of staff who were selling to thier mates. Also were as supermarkets may not encourge under ages drinking, they too promote binge drinking and drinking to excess ! when they are planning there stores the most important thing is the postionan of the wines and beers ! Why do you think that supermarket will sell booze under cost price ? Because they know that is what will get people thru the doors ! More money is spent on advertising drink by the supermarkets than the Brewers !

 

Also it is not uncommon for people to turn to violence once being refused drink, and if you are on your own then its more of a worry. The problem that councils have are they are far too many outlets for acholol which are not goveren properly. I would address this problem by removing all alochol from supermarkets and general grocerier. We should have proper off-licence which are only allowed to sell booze, and which are regulated by local councils. I also think the under 21 rules is good in practise, the only thing i would change is that over 18's should be allowed to buy 6 units only from a off-licence, i know it would be also impossible to govern but i argee that people should be allowed to drink in the house without be made criminals !

 

 

The problem with drink does not come from the supply ! Until a government has the balls to look at the real issues all these measures are worthless. We golryises getting ****ed off our faces ! As society we have became immune to the issue of kids drinking (we are guilty of doing it ourselves).