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Harvey Weinstein & others - sexual assault

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redjambo
3 hours ago, cosanostra said:

Seeing many of the actresses who are now complaining about this evil, fat, disgusting creature with their hands draped around him as if they were the best of friends obviously doesn't sit well with any of us.

 

I'm afraid I have to disagree with this. With the power dynamics that take place in cases of abuse, often illustrated in cases of domestic abuse and bullying, where the person being abused has to endure a longer-term relationship (in the general sense) with the abuser, very often they present an image where everything seems normal, even as being sweetness and light between them, as a means of survival and of coping with the stress of the abuse and the ongoing relationship. However, even given that, it boils down to the fact that the abuse took place and that is the most important aspect - anything else detracts from this.

 

Also, I don't think your description of Weinstein as "fat" helps. I know some very generous and caring overweight people. His size has nothing to do with his abhorrent behaviour.

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doctor jambo

One thing that might help is making non-disclosure agreements illegal.

that you cannot accept money as "compensation" 

I cannot blame people for not coming forward about allegations, but I cannot accept people taking cash to stay schtum

and think it gives the rich an out in such things and certain folks a cause to make such allegations

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redm
11 minutes ago, deesidejambo said:

I struggle with the PA who accepted the £125000 quid bribe (sorry "non-disclosure agreement payment") to keep quiet though.

 

If I get it correctly this was in 1998?  If she had chosen not to accept the money and spoken out, everyone from 1998 onwards would have been protected against him. 

 

The reason she is speaking out now is because her lawyers will have told her she is in just as deep shit as he is.  She accepted money to prevent her disclosure of an alleged serious crime.   A crime which appears to have been repeated many times since 1998.  Allegedly.

 

No doubt I will be told she was naive or pressured into it.  But I suspect the truth may be she was willing too accept the money at that time and now that she has been advised she may be culpable in not preventing repetition she is on damage limitation.  For herself.

 

imo of course!

 

 

 

 

 

 

It wasn’t that simple. Not at all. Worth reading this for the details: https://www.ft.com/content/1dc8a8ae-b7e0-11e7-8c12-5661783e5589

 

Also, who should she have told and what should she have said? She was 24 years old. Going by the contents of that piece above it sounds to me like she did her best (within her own capacity to influence things) to try and make things different for other women. 

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cosanostra
7 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

I'm afraid I have to disagree with this. With the power dynamics that take place in cases of abuse, often illustrated in cases of domestic abuse and bullying, where the person being abused has to endure a longer-term relationship (in the general sense) with the abuser, very often they present an image where everything seems normal, even as being sweetness and light between them, as a means of survival and of coping with the stress of the abuse and the ongoing relationship. However, even given that, it boils down to the fact that the abuse took place and that is the most important aspect - anything else detracts from this.

 

Also, I don't think your description of Weinstein as "fat" helps. I know some very generous and caring overweight people. His size has nothing to do with his abhorrent behaviour.

 

My description of him was intended to make the point that he was preying on females who would never even look at him if it wasn't for his power and influence. He's a repulsive individual who if he wasn't enormously wealthy and powerful would struggle to find any females who would look at him twice.

 

As for the first part, I take your point to an extent. It's not people who were in long term abusive relationships that I was really talking about there.

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redjambo
3 minutes ago, cosanostra said:

 

My description of him was intended to make the point that he was preying on females who would never even look at him if it wasn't for his power and influence. He's a repulsive individual who if he wasn't enormously wealthy and powerful would struggle to find any females who would look at him twice.

 

As for the first part, I take your point to an extent. It's not people who were in long term abusive relationships that I was really talking about there.

 

The way that the film industry works, in order to survive in that industry the victims would often have had to maintain a long-term relationship with him, always with the backdrop of the abuse that had taken place. Whether or not the abuse continued during the relationship, the fact that it had taken place at one point and the trauma resulting from it, would result in Weinstein having an abusive hold over the victim. Hence , the long-term abusive nature of the relationship.

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Seymour M Hersh
43 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

I'm afraid I have to disagree with this. With the power dynamics that take place in cases of abuse, often illustrated in cases of domestic abuse and bullying, where the person being abused has to endure a longer-term relationship (in the general sense) with the abuser, very often they present an image where everything seems normal, even as being sweetness and light between them, as a means of survival and of coping with the stress of the abuse and the ongoing relationship. However, even given that, it boils down to the fact that the abuse took place and that is the most important aspect - anything else detracts from this.

 

Also, I don't think your description of Weinstein as "fat" helps. I know some very generous and caring overweight people. His size has nothing to do with his abhorrent behaviour.

 

Is that a joke? If it's not then have a word with yourself. He is fat. Fact! No-one is suggesting he did what he's alleged to have done because he was fat. But he is fat. He's also a repellant slug! 

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niblick1874

 

There is something else that has to be added and it's a game changer.

 

They don't even have to be threatened with grievous bodily harm or death to themselves, family members or friends a lot of the time. They know for sure they have to take that into consideration when deciding whether to say something or not.

 

 

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redjambo
2 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Is that a joke? If it's not then have a word with yourself. He is fat. Fact! No-one is suggesting he did what he's alleged to have done because he was fat. But he is fat. He's also a repellant slug! 

 

No, it wasn't a joke. :) His size had nothing to do with his abuse. I would have equally pointed it out if the poster in question had used "American", "Jewish", "New Yorker", "white", "tall" or any other adjective that had nothing to do with his actions as an abuser. By using "fat", the poster inadvertently equated his size with the other adjectives "evil" and "disgusting". This is how casual discrimination works in society. We should have a go at people because of their actions and deeds, nothing else.

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Ron Burgundy

Adjectives should be banned.

 

 

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redjambo
Just now, Ron Burgundy said:

Adjectives should be banned.

 

 

Thanks for your positive, well-thought out and complex contribution to the debate. :D

 

Weinstein is fat - there's no argument about that. The problem is when folk use attributes in an unnecessarily pejorative manner. In the context here, fat was used in a pejorative way, thus equating size with something bad (and that is a form of discrimination that is rife in society).

 

It's no biggie (pardon the pun), but I just thought I should point it out.

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cosanostra
23 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

By using "fat", the poster inadvertently equated his size with the other adjectives "evil" and "disgusting". This is how casual discrimination works in society. We should have a go at people because of their actions and deeds, nothing else.

 

Nope. You chose to see it that way. No-one has equated size with evil apart from you.

 

That says a lot about you and your mindset tbh. The fact that you chose to see it like that instead of taking the words at face value screams volumes about you.

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redjambo
3 minutes ago, cosanostra said:

 

Nope. You chose to see it that way. No-one has equated size with evil apart from you.

 

That says a lot about you and your mindset tbh. The fact that you chose to see it like that instead of taking the words at face value screams volumes about you.

 

Your exact words were "evil, fat, disgusting creature". Are you honestly arguing that the "fat" in the middle of that isn't being used in a pejorative way. Really?

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cosanostra
3 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

Your exact words were "evil, fat, disgusting creature". Are you honestly arguing that the "fat" in the middle of that isn't being used in a pejorative way. Really?

 

It was used to describe his physique. 

Disgusting was used to describe his preying on women.

Creature was just an insult aimed at showing his lack of basic humanity.

Do these terms actually require an explanation?

 

As I said, I brought up his physical appearance to contrast him with the types of female that he took advantage of and molested. There's no need to read any more deeply into it than that.

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doctor jambo
9 minutes ago, cosanostra said:

 

It was used to describe his physique. 

Disgusting was used to describe his preying on women.

Creature was just an insult aimed at showing his lack of basic humanity.

Do these terms actually require an explanation?

 

As I said, I brought up his physical appearance to contrast him with the types of female that he took advantage of and molested. There's no need to read any more deeply into it than that.

you implying that women don't find fat guys attractive?

BMI fascist!

 

There is of course a direct relationship between a mans wealth/power and the attractiveness of his partner ( either male or female)

However generalisations now are conflated to prejudices , so you have to be very careful

 

 

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cosanostra
10 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

you implying that women don't find fat guys attractive?

BMI fascist!

 

There is of course a direct relationship between a mans wealth/power and the attractiveness of his partner ( either male or female)

However generalisations now are conflated to prejudices , so you have to be very careful

 

 

 

:laugh:

Not girls like those he targeted.

 

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AlimOzturk

I haven't been following  this story but seen this morning that Michael Winner has been accused by three women of demanding to see and touch their breasts. 

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doctor jambo

If I went for   job interview and an old dude was the only interviewer, and part way through the process asked it see my penis, or give him a massage,

even if I really wanted the job- like incredibly badly- I'd leave

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cosanostra
11 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

If I went for   job interview and an old dude was the only interviewer, and part way through the process asked it see my penis, or give him a massage,

even if I really wanted the job- like incredibly badly- I'd leave

 

How about if the job paid a few million £ a year?

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doctor jambo
24 minutes ago, cosanostra said:

 

How about if the job paid a few million £ a year?

Nope- mainly because I'm not a prostitute.

Same basic reasoning that I would not stand in a corridor whilst an old guy jerked off in front of me ( another accusation)

Is Hollywood really that degraded that actors merely ignore this kind of behaviour in case they don't get a job?

HOw long would you last in your job if you did that?

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doctor jambo

Just to clarify- I totally understand the non reporting of rape and sexual assault, but there must be hundreds of actors who seem to think this is "normal" to get a job.

If that is the case then WTAF- the place needs shut down until this is sorted

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cosanostra
7 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

Nope- mainly because I'm not a prostitute.

Same basic reasoning that I would not stand in a corridor whilst an old guy jerked off in front of me ( another accusation)

Is Hollywood really that degraded that actors merely ignore this kind of behaviour in case they don't get a job?

HOw long would you last in your job if you did that?

 

Unsure if I'm being honest.

A lot of people would put up with sexual abuse for vast sums of money I'd imagine.

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SE16 3LN
49 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

If I went for   job interview and an old dude was the only interviewer, and part way through the process asked it see my penis, or give him a massage,

even if I really wanted the job- like incredibly badly- I'd leave

What if it was a young dude?

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doctor jambo
10 minutes ago, SE16 3LN said:

What if it was a young dude?

If I would have had sex with them anyway, without the offer of a job- then sure- why not

but that's not what the "exchange " is here

the exchange is basically having sex with someone for money- or allowing someone to do something with/to you for money or advancement that you would not normally have done

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SE16 3LN
9 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

If I would have had sex with them anyway, without the offer of a job- then sure- why not

but that's not what the "exchange " is here

the exchange is basically having sex with someone for money- or allowing someone to do something with/to you for money or advancement that you would not normally have done

I know, I agree

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Francis Albert
15 hours ago, redm said:

 

 

This version of victim blaming (or ‘reallocation’ of a portion of the blame) also completely ignores the power dynamic of these situations. 

 

It’s also a pretty strange reaction to behaviour of this sort. It’s only a step or two away from “she was probably asking for it” or “come on, is sexual assault really THAT bad?” 

 

 

Who is victim blaming? If you think someone is, you should challenge them, especially as on JKB the "power dynamic" is kind of in your favour.

 

Certainly what I have posted (or indeed anyone else has posted on this thread) isn't a step or two away from what you are accusing someone or other of ... it is a million miles away.

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redjambo
2 hours ago, cosanostra said:

 

How about if the job paid a few million £ a year?

 

Not only that, but going back to the specific case of Hollywood, it is very much a "who you know" environment. There are certain movers and shakers, and to get on the right side of of them is to offer a greater guarantee of success in the the business. On the other hand, if you piss one of them off, you can find yourself effectively blackballed. The pressures are tremendous, and all aspiring actors and actresses know that.

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Seymour M Hersh
4 hours ago, redjambo said:

 

No, it wasn't a joke. :) His size had nothing to do with his abuse. I would have equally pointed it out if the poster in question had used "American", "Jewish", "New Yorker", "white", "tall" or any other adjective that had nothing to do with his actions as an abuser. By using "fat", the poster inadvertently equated his size with the other adjectives "evil" and "disgusting". This is how casual discrimination works in society. We should have a go at people because of their actions and deeds, nothing else.

 

Jeez you must be a laugh a minute in the battle cruiser!! 

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redjambo
Just now, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Jeez you must be a laugh a minute in the battle cruiser!! 

 

:D I have my moments. This obviously wasn't one of them though.

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Paolo

It seems Matt Damon and Ben Affleck knew about him.   What’s their excuse?  Well other than him apparently treating Paltrow ‘tremendously respectful always.’  (Not as bad a comment as Ewan McGregor’s about how nice a man Roman Polanski is).  

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/matt-damon-admits-he-knew-harvey-weinstein-sexually-harassed-gwyneth-paltrow_us_59ede74ce4b0958c46833820

Edited by Paolo

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Homme

Alice Glass, formally of Crystal Castles came out and accused her ex bandmate of years of systematic abuse during her time in CC. Says she was inspired by these recent events.

 

Sad.

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Ugly American

Amazing how much is coming out in the wake of this. Leon Wieseltier and Mark Halperin, big names in centrist/liberal publishing and Beltway political journalism respectively, have now gotten tossed because of a raft of accusations coming forward.

 

Even talk now about GHW Bush, now confined to a wheelchair, copping feels.

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cosanostra

When are the police going to arrest this guy?

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Seymour M Hersh
33 minutes ago, cosanostra said:

When are the police going to arrest this guy?

 

When they have proper evidence possibly. I think this is the whole problem with this situation. All they've got is the testimony (some of it 20 years old or more) of women saying they've been raped/assaulted/groped or whatever by the slug. As far as I can see (and I'm no legal expert) all they'll have is a series of she said/he said situations without any credible evidence. 

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cosanostra
Just now, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

When they have proper evidence possibly. I think this is the whole problem with this situation. All they've got is the testimony (some of it 20 years old or more) of women saying they've been raped/assaulted/groped or whatever by the slug. As far as I can see (and I'm no legal expert) all they'll have is a series of she said/he said situations without any credible evidence. 

 

They're probably taking statements, talking to witnesses and building a case.

They just need to bide their time and get this guy where he belongs which is behind bars for a long time.

 

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cosanostra
1 minute ago, vegas-voss said:

Feldman's has been telling people for years what's been going on.

 

It's hard to know how much he has to say or if he's an attention seeker suffering from some manner of mental illness.

The fact that he's asking for money to write, direct and star in a documentary is really going to make people question his motives.

If he has information,  he could just go to the police or even the New York Times. This makes it look all about him.

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doctor jambo
2 hours ago, cosanostra said:

 

It's hard to know how much he has to say or if he's an attention seeker suffering from some manner of mental illness.

The fact that he's asking for money to write, direct and star in a documentary is really going to make people question his motives.

If he has information,  he could just go to the police or even the New York Times. This makes it look all about him.

The difficulty Cosa, is that many victims of Childhood abuse end up with Personality Disorders- especially Emotionally Unstable Borderline .

This makes them hard to believe ( to some people)- they self harm, attention seek, and are generally difficult- however they are telling the truth.

It is the very fact that they are like they are that makes them more plausible

They are severely damaged

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cosanostra
7 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

The difficulty Cosa, is that many victims of Childhood abuse end up with Personality Disorders- especially Emotionally Unstable Borderline .

This makes them hard to believe ( to some people)- they self harm, attention seek, and are generally difficult- however they are telling the truth.

It is the very fact that they are like they are that makes them more plausible

They are severely damaged

 

Completely understand and agree. 

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doctor jambo

FWIW  I absolutely believe Feldman.

I have seen him interviewed on several occasions now and he, even when not discussing his "issues" very much comes across as a childhood trauma survivor.

It marks you

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Furious Styles
45 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

FWIW  I absolutely believe Feldman.

I have seen him interviewed on several occasions now and he, even when not discussing his "issues" very much comes across as a childhood trauma survivor.

It marks you

 

I think Corey Haim suffered far worse. Feldman was very protective of Haim and wanted to expose people. 

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Seymour M Hersh
5 hours ago, cosanostra said:

 

They're probably taking statements, talking to witnesses and building a case.

They just need to bide their time and get this guy where he belongs which is behind bars for a long time.

 

 

Unless he confesses I just think it'll be difficult to come up with hard evidence after so many years. And witness accounts tend to be the least accurate evidence. 

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I P Knightley
On 10/24/2017 at 15:06, doctor jambo said:

Nope- mainly because I'm not a prostitute.

Same basic reasoning that I would not stand in a corridor whilst an old guy jerked off in front of me ( another accusation)

Is Hollywood really that degraded that actors merely ignore this kind of behaviour in case they don't get a job?

HOw long would you last in your job if you did that?

I'd like to think I would do the same.

But Doc, you're an intelligent person with career options. You know that walking away does not close all doors to you. The folks upon whom Weinstein preyed are not in that same boat (plus the fact that he's more powerful in his industry than anyone I've ever come near in mine - not sure there is anyone that powerful in many industries, in fact.)

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I P Knightley
10 hours ago, Ugly American said:

Even talk now about GHW Bush, now confined to a wheelchair, copping feels.

 

3 separate cases so far; all the same MO - copping a feel when they stand beside his wheelchair for a photo. 

 

93 years old and wheelchair bound, FFS!!.

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Tazio
Just now, I P Knightley said:

 

3 separate cases so far; all the same MO - copping a feel when they stand beside his wheelchair for a photo. 

 

93 years old and wheelchair bound, FFS!!.

 

The genie is out the bottle now. A very prominent British theatre director has just been dismissed from the theatre company he founded for his behaviour towards women. The excuse was that since he had a couple of strokes (the medical kind) they had damaged the part of the brain that controls what is appropriate to say or not. A bit like the type of dementia that David Baddiel made a documentary about his father on (Pecks?). Now it appears he has been behaving this way for a number of years, in fact many years before he even had a stroke. 

 

Expect a lot more of these cases, the theatre business in general has always had a very open way of people behaving towards each other and a rude sense of humour from both sexes. Now there is a generation that gets very easily offended about things, couple that with older workers who will unwittingly continue to practice the old sense of humour and there will be lots of complaints. Also despite the complaints about gender inequality woman now have more senior roles in theatres than men. 

 

We've just been told that there will be a new code of practice put in place in the theatre I work in about sexism. Despite there already being a long section about it in the staff handbook.

 

I'm shitting myself.

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doctor jambo
34 minutes ago, I P Knightley said:

I'd like to think I would do the same.

But Doc, you're an intelligent person with career options. You know that walking away does not close all doors to you. The folks upon whom Weinstein preyed are not in that same boat (plus the fact that he's more powerful in his industry than anyone I've ever come near in mine - not sure there is anyone that powerful in many industries, in fact.)

There is ALWAYS an option not to be wanked on by a big hairy bloke for career advancement .

Go work in an industry where that would not appear to be an accepted part of job applications.

Its a self respect thing

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Zico
3 hours ago, Jefferson Davis Hogg said:

 

I think Corey Haim suffered far worse. Feldman was very protective of Haim and wanted to expose people. 

I think Feldman’s often said in the past that, while he was abused, Haim’s abuse was much worse.

 

The doc makes a good point about personality disorders that abused people develop. Feldman and Rose McGowan seem fairly unhinged but it’s not really that surprising after what they’re alleged to have suffered. 

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cosanostra
2 hours ago, Zico said:

I think Feldman’s often said in the past that, while he was abused, Haim’s abuse was much worse.

 

The doc makes a good point about personality disorders that abused people develop. Feldman and Rose McGowan seem fairly unhinged but it’s not really that surprising after what they’re alleged to have suffered. 

 

I think Rose McGowan sounds very sober and sensible when she talks. She's very credible, intelligent and articulate. I don't think she seems unhinged really at all.

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Seymour M Hersh
35 minutes ago, cosanostra said:

 

I think Rose McGowan sounds very sober and sensible when she talks. She's very credible, intelligent and articulate. I don't think she seems unhinged really at all.

 

Quite probably but she is horribly lacking corroboration in any way shape or form.

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