Unknown user Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 6 minutes ago, mutley said: If your paying less per person how do the hospitals have more money to spend? You'd need to ask them exactly what happens behind the scenes mate. I suppose there could be a lot of people who have a bit of cash and will pay more for premium insurance without ever using it, and maybe they employ less agency staff and managers. I don't claim to know the system in depth though, I'm no hospital administrator, just a bloke who knows what he's seen. I lived there for 10 years and was very impressed with the set up, the quality of care, the level and quality of staffing and equipment. I tend not to bring it up because we see the NHS as sacred and it's not a popular opinion, especially for a lefty, but I know what I've seen with my own eyes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 2 minutes ago, jamboy1982 said: That sounds fine but you know that boris and his pals are setting this up to sell the nhs to the yanks. Well yeah, exactly. Like I said, if done correctly with proper care and attention paid to the healthcare and the poor and infirm it doesn't need to be pricelists at the door. But we all know how the Tories do things, and we should indeed be worried about what they're up to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 Seems to me that what @Smithee is describing is more to do with the funding of the service. So we fund the NHS through NI and/or taxation. If we had health insurance that funded the NHS, it wouldn't really be any different, just the funding model is different. Who bears the brunt of the insurance is the question I suppose. Also, is the Dutch model of healthcare a different one to the US system? Anyway, back to Brexit, this government are really doing my head in with their arrogance. Raab is a complete arsehole. Seriously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cade Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 The government's actual plan seems to be "pretend we're trying to get a deal but aren't really then blame the EU when everything goes to shit on halloween" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 1 hour ago, Smithee said: I don't think you get the setup I'm trying to describe then, he wouldn't be paying for the care, that's the point of the insurance. I'm not slagging the NHS, far from it, but I've lived in a country with a system that delivers better healthcare, I've seen it with my own eyes. How can you know it's better? There are hundreds of thousands of different procedures and treatments. Are they all better in Holland? Some might be. Same as some are better in Poland. The general feedback on the NHS from people in Britain is good. There is I agree a conversation to be had about funding. NHS currently struggling due to years of failing to keep up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 10 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said: How can you know it's better? There are hundreds of thousands of different procedures and treatments. Are they all better in Holland? Some might be. Same as some are better in Poland. The general feedback on the NHS from people in Britain is good. There is I agree a conversation to be had about funding. NHS currently struggling due to years of failing to keep up. I've spent a decade of my adult life living in Holland, experiencing it for myself, getting to know people who use it, learning how the country and institutions work. I've had similar treatment to my brother whose operation took months to come through, mine was weeks with a private room and in depth follow up. I feel I'm pretty well placed to say it's better TBH, much better than most. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 8 minutes ago, Smithee said: I've spent a decade of my adult life living in Holland, experiencing it for myself, getting to know people who use it, learning how the country and institutions work. I've had similar treatment to my brother whose operation took months to come through, mine was weeks with a private room and in depth follow up. I feel I'm pretty well placed to say it's better TBH, much better than most. So not much experience at all then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 9 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said: So not much experience at all then. Much, much more than you mate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo-Jimbo Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 1 hour ago, mutley said: If your paying less per person how do the hospitals have more money to spend? Probably by employing less pencil pushing 'so called managers' for one. Forget bank or agency staff as being a problem, the real issue with NHS waste is management. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 9 minutes ago, Smithee said: Much, much more than you mate You probably don't have more experience than me of the NHS in Scotland and England. I don't doubt you have had good experiences in Holland and that there things they do better. UK health indicators lag behind many countries. Though how much that is to do with the health service than socio economic factors is of course open to debate. Your problem is in taking that limited experience, and it is limited and drawing the conclusion the whole service is better. But I am open. Tell us then how the Dutch service is better in the following areas and any you wish to add and you'll have our attention. Coronary care Cancer (all types) Respiratory tract infections Rheumatoid arthritis Cardiovascular disease Osteoporosis Parkinson's disease Screening Transplants Meningitis Multiple Sclerosis AIDs /HIV Hemophilia Hepatitis Hip replacement Muscular Dystrophy Blindness / vision loss / eye surgery Brain injury The Ambulance Service Physiotherapy Hospital bed occupancy Waiting times Population coverage Infections Vaccinations Influenza Depression Schizophrenia Births Ectopic pregnancy Post natal depression Bowell treatments Kidney disease Brain haemorrhage Hernia Crohn's disease Psoriasis Strokes Diabetes Dementia Menopause Hormone Replacement therapy Ear infections Allergies Asthma Psychiatry Counselling and Psychological Therapy Dentistry Antibiotic resistance Pneumonia Anorexia Menopause Post traumatic stress disorder Abortions Plastic surgery Blood Transfusion services Access to general practice And of course what people pay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 Chuka Umunna at the 'Lib Dem' conference. (Lib Dem used in the official sense only, seeing as they're happy to act as a lifeboat for a number of people who are not Lib Dems but who are desperate to remain MPs and quite fancy the idea of being ministers in the future. Policies? WTF are those?) Anyway... a speech devoid of actual details, policies, ideas or philosophy. Pretty much just Boris Johnson bad man. Likes Donald Trump. Booo. Jeremy Corbyn bad man. Hates jews. Likes Putin and Hezbollah. Booo. I'm one of you and always wanted to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said: You probably don't have more experience than me of the NHS in Scotland and England. I don't doubt you have had good experiences in Holland and that there things they do better. UK health indicators lag behind many countries. Though how much that is to do with the health service than socio economic factors is of course open to debate. Your problem is in taking that limited experience, and it is limited and drawing the conclusion the whole service is better. But I am open. Tell us then how the Dutch service is better in the following areas and any you wish to add and you'll have our attention. Coronary care Cancer (all types) Respiratory tract infections Rheumatoid arthritis Cardiovascular disease Osteoporosis Parkinson's disease Screening Transplants Meningitis Multiple Sclerosis AIDs /HIV Hemophilia Hepatitis Hip replacement Muscular Dystrophy Blindness / vision loss / eye surgery Brain injury The Ambulance Service Physiotherapy Hospital bed occupancy Waiting times Population coverage Infections Vaccinations Influenza Depression Schizophrenia Births Ectopic pregnancy Post natal depression Bowell treatments Kidney disease Brain haemorrhage Hernia Crohn's disease Psoriasis Strokes Diabetes Dementia Menopause Hormone Replacement therapy Ear infections Allergies Asthma Psychiatry Counselling and Psychological Therapy Dentistry Antibiotic resistance Pneumonia Anorexia Menopause Post traumatic stress disorder Abortions Plastic surgery Blood Transfusion services Access to general practice And of course what people pay You're being ridiculous, nowhere on this forum is anyone expected to be an expert in all areas of a subject before expressing an opinion. I've lived in the UK, I've lived in Holland, I've experienced both, waiting times for doctors, tests. You can doubt all you like, it's an opinion forum and I'd never claim I was right, but I'm in a better place to compare the 2 systems from a layman's perspective than you. I'm not arsed about convincing you, look it up if you're that into it, I only bring it up in response to another poster. Edited September 16, 2019 by Smithee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beni Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 4 hours ago, ri Alban said: The Guardian should fecking ashamed of itself. Disgraceful what they've said about David Cameron's grief. Arseholes! Definitely a mistake, but they've apologised now. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49710874 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 2 minutes ago, Smithee said: You're being ridiculous, nowhere on this forum is anyone expected to be an expert in all areas of a subject before expressing an opinion. I've lived in the UK, I've lived in Holland, I've experienced both, waiting times for doctors, tests. You can doubt all you like, it's an opinion forum and I'd never claim I was right, but I'm in a better place to compare the 2 systems from a layman's perspective than you. I'm not arsed about convincing you, look it up if you're that into it, I only bring it up in response to another poster. I could quite easily find people critical of the health service in Holland. But I agree to leave it. The one thing you do continue to hear living in Britain is people praising the NHS. These people have as much experience as you do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beni Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 2 hours ago, Smithee said: I tend not to bring it up because we see the NHS as sacred and it's not a popular opinion, especially for a lefty, but I know what I've seen with my own eyes. It's a double edged sword. The sacred cow bit is a drag on possible improvements, but also a guard against unfettered privatisation. The best summary of the NHS I've heard was Matthew Parris on Question Time when he said in camparison to the best health services, we've got a second rate service, but we're doing well because we only pay for a third rate service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 21 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said: I could quite easily find people critical of the health service in Holland. But I agree to leave it. The one thing you do continue to hear living in Britain is people praising the NHS. These people have as much experience as you do. I'm not slagging the NHS, I'm comparing what I know first hand about 2 different systems from a layman's point of view. 13 minutes ago, fancy a brew said: It's a double edged sword. The sacred cow bit is a drag on possible improvements, but also a guard against unfettered privatisation. The best summary of the NHS I've heard was Matthew Parris on Question Time when he said in camparison to the best health services, we've got a second rate service, but we're doing well because we only pay for a third rate service. 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 1 hour ago, Victorian said: Chuka Umunna at the 'Lib Dem' conference. (Lib Dem used in the official sense only, seeing as they're happy to act as a lifeboat for a number of people who are not Lib Dems but who are desperate to remain MPs and quite fancy the idea of being ministers in the future. Policies? WTF are those?) Anyway... a speech devoid of actual details, policies, ideas or philosophy. Pretty much just Boris Johnson bad man. Likes Donald Trump. Booo. Jeremy Corbyn bad man. Hates jews. Likes Putin and Hezbollah. Booo. I'm one of you and always wanted to be. Lib Dems getting very confident these days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cade Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 LibDems one and only policy: "We're not Tory and we're not Labour, vote for us PLEASE we're desperate" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 5 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said: Lib Dems getting very confident these days. They're making a grab for a very short term political gain, while making their wider appeal very limited. Trying to hoover up all the hard-remain votes but giving up on leave votes. The daft thing is that their election majority pledge to revoke article 50 cannot possibly occur. They seem to be trying to gain a limited slice of the pie on the basis of a policy that can never come to pass. They even risk alienating the referendum believing vote by having such a policy. Ed Davey just said that their policy will be to re-enter the EU in the event that we leave. On the face of it, they don't seem to have any clear direction that would be remotely capable of making meaningful gains. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 Yellowhammer - Orwell mayhem Now THAT'S an anagram! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brighton Jambo Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 (edited) What I don't get is Boris J still banging on about leaving on 31st irrespective of whether he have a deal or not. Is he truly looking to ignore the recently passed law. My fear is that he does ignore it, irrespective of the consequences, and is seen as a martyr and a hero to 17m leave voters Edited September 16, 2019 by Brighton Jambo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 2 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said: What I don't get is Boris J still banging on about leaving on 31st irrespective of whether he have a deal or not. Is he truly looking to ignore the recently passed law. My fear is that he does ignore it, irrespective of the consequences, and is seen as a martyr and a hero to 17m leave voters They're making noises about the new law not being strong enough to enforce. Suggestions about it being circumvented. They're now throwing out suggestions about a second prorogation to prevent further parliamentary process. All of this could just be to keep no deal in the mix as far as the EU side is concerned. To keep them off balance in terms of whether no deal can be railroaded through. Maybe it can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 Get ready for brexit on the 31st of October adverts now on the radio. Passport, driving and health insurance the main issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 Here's the written submission from Joanna Cherry's team to the Supreme Court which starts its proceedings tomorrow. Jo Maugham QC @JolyonMaugham You can read our written argument for the Supreme Court in the prorogation case here. https://www.dropbox.com/s/stfvxsq1t3olvjv/Cherry Final Case for respondents (with references).pdf?dl=0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Notts1874 Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 (edited) This is brilliant. The news conference from Boris Johnson's visit to Luxembourg. Which Boris didn't attend possibly due to protests. Edited September 16, 2019 by Mikey1874 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 On 12/09/2019 at 20:17, redjambo said: I disagree, but perhaps because I'm a follower of scientific principles and a hater of bullshit. If you claim something to be true, you need to back it up. If you claim something *might* be true, that's a different matter, but even then it is often possible to show why things might possibly be true - circumstantial evidence, balance of possibilities, strong evidence that a claim is not false, etc. I agree with you however that, especially given that folk are easily led, we need to be responsible with public pronouncements. Just to let you know. Jo Swinson has been in talks with Boris about tactical voting at the GE in Scotland. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 How does one get on the list of speakers at the Supreme Court? Robert Peston@Peston On Thursday we will witness something for which I can find no precedent, namely an ex Tory prime minister Sir John Major arguing in the highest court of the land that the exercise of the prerogative by the current Tory prime minister, Boris Johnson, in suspending parliament was unlawful. See attached for the details of this legal and constitutional blockbuster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 (edited) Watch the Supreme Court from tomorrow live here https://www.supremecourt.uk/live/court-01.html Edited September 16, 2019 by Mikey1874 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpship Posted September 16, 2019 Author Share Posted September 16, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Mikey1874 said: This is brilliant. The news conference from Boris Johnson's visit to Luxembourg. Which Boris didn't attend possibly due to protests. It's like when he met Nicola sturgeon, shate himself and ran away out the back door... what a Coward he is... Rule, to change to "Run-a-way and Hide Britannia" Edited September 16, 2019 by jumpship Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pans Jambo Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 (edited) Boris been on the slimfast plan or what??? Edited September 16, 2019 by Pans Jambo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 Downing St (Cummings) blamed the Luxembourg people by saying the UK delegation made repeated requests for the PC to be held inside. The well of goodwill is dry when it comes to believing anything that No10 says. GTF you lying *****. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mighty Thor Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 13 minutes ago, Victorian said: Downing St (Cummings) blamed the Luxembourg people by saying the UK delegation made repeated requests for the PC to be held inside. The well of goodwill is dry when it comes to believing anything that No10 says. GTF you lying *****. He managed an in depth interview with his BBC PR manager/spin doctor Laura Kuenssberg. Soft ball questions all round and the perfect foil for the shambling buffoonery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 2 hours ago, ri Alban said: Just to let you know. Jo Swinson has been in talks with Boris about tactical voting at the GE in Scotland. That sounds like complete crap to me. What's your source? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 8 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said: He managed an in depth interview with his BBC PR manager/spin doctor Laura Kuenssberg. Soft ball questions all round and the perfect foil for the shambling buffoonery. She greeted him at what looked like the royal departure lounge (Heathrow or Gatwick?) before he boarded the Queen's Flight aircraft. She extended her hand for a handshake and the ignorant ***** briefly took it but didn't break stride as he barged past her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo-Jimbo Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 49 minutes ago, Victorian said: Downing St (Cummings) blamed the Luxembourg people by saying the UK delegation made repeated requests for the PC to be held inside. The well of goodwill is dry when it comes to believing anything that No10 says. GTF you lying *****. The Sky News reporter who was present, confirmed at the time this afternoon, that the UK delegation had made repeated requests for it to be held inside, only to be told by the Luxembourg officials, that they didn't have a room large enough to accommodate all of the press core and the press conference would have to be held outside. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mighty Thor Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 5 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said: The Sky News reporter who was present, confirmed at the time this afternoon, that the UK delegation had made repeated requests for it to be held inside, only to be told by the Luxembourg officials, that they didn't have a room large enough to accommodate all of the press core and the press conference would have to be held outside. They released this to Beth Rigby of Sky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo-Jimbo Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 23 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said: They released this to Beth Rigby of Sky That's pretty much what was reported live this afternoon and what I wrote in my previous post, although the above statement gives a little bit more detail than what was reported live. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mighty Thor Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 5 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said: That's pretty much what was reported live this afternoon and what I wrote in my previous post, although the above statement gives a little bit more detail than what was reported live. The spin on it now is that baw jaws knew he was being stitched up and refused to do the presser. Uh-huh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Z Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 Excellent https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10156648547823481&id=581608480 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 2 hours ago, The Mighty Thor said: They released this to Beth Rigby of Sky It was a polite demonstration. They went quiet every time the Luxembourg Prime Minister started speaking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Real Maroonblood Posted September 17, 2019 Share Posted September 17, 2019 8 hours ago, Justin Z said: Excellent https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10156648547823481&id=581608480 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted September 17, 2019 Share Posted September 17, 2019 10 hours ago, redjambo said: That sounds like complete crap to me. What's your source? Google Libdem Tory Pact. Take your pick. Denied, obviously, but hey... these are the same people who lied about tuition fees and tried to slur the FM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted September 17, 2019 Share Posted September 17, 2019 7 hours ago, Zlatanable said: Hi @ri Alban did you just make this up? Aye, I just made it up. I'm also a Tory who voted no. 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted September 17, 2019 Share Posted September 17, 2019 Libdems won't contest Rory Stewart seat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted September 17, 2019 Share Posted September 17, 2019 The judgement on the Supreme Court case might not be given till next week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphonseCapone Posted September 17, 2019 Share Posted September 17, 2019 The Liberal Democrats vote to unilaterally revoke Article 50 and therefore ignore the referendum result while Willie Rennie states a Scottish independence referendum shouldn't be granted even if a majority of Greens and SNP's are returned. Democrats... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted September 17, 2019 Share Posted September 17, 2019 10 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said: The Liberal Democrats vote to unilaterally revoke Article 50 and therefore ignore the referendum result while Willie Rennie states a Scottish independence referendum shouldn't be granted even if a majority of Greens and SNP's are returned. Democrats... I can't understand how anyone can take them seriously after they were in government. Their principles went out the window, it could happen again, they're weak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted September 17, 2019 Share Posted September 17, 2019 I still think the position of the different legal systems (Scotland) is interesting. A lot of commentators/ politicians are still saying the English court ruling is more relevant on basis courts should not get involved with Parliament. Which isn't my understanding of status of Court of Session. Will need the Scottish legal experts to be heard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted September 17, 2019 Share Posted September 17, 2019 (edited) 16 hours ago, Mikey1874 said: Watch the Supreme Court from tomorrow live here https://www.supremecourt.uk/live/court-01.html Starting now. 2 appeals 1. Gina Millar against English court decision (in part using Court of Session decision arguments) 2. Government against Court of Session decision. Plus some representations including N.Ireland and John Major. Edited September 17, 2019 by Mikey1874 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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