Brexit Deal agreed ( updated )

[Victorian]

1 minute ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

A week or so ago I wondered if May might get her deal by virtue of the fact that it was a compromise and people would want to bring an end to all this.

 

but it’s quite clear that this deal has zero chance. She’ll lose and it’s a waste of time even putting it to a vote.

 

she then has to resign, surely. At which point I assume we get a general election. Chaos.

 

Lose vote.  Labour move no-confidence.   Motion carries,  election.   Motion falls,  government may have to demonstrate it can still operate with a majority.   If not,   The Queen can ask government to stand aside if another government can be formed.    

[Cruyff Turn]

U.K. cannot leave the EU if the backstop remains in place and would be subject to protracted and repeating rounds of negotiations.

 

Britain, Scotland & England could leave the EU leaving N.Ireland in the EU. N.Ireland would have to then be given the powers to allow this to happen and be treated as a “3rd Country”, separate from Britain.

 

So England would be ripping Scotland out of the EU, not the U.K.  N.Ireland would be at a significant advantage to Scotland and given the powers to enable them to be treated separately. Shambles. The U.K. is a constitutional cluster****.

[Pans Jambo]

27 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

A week or so ago I wondered if May might get her deal by virtue of the fact that it was a compromise and people would want to bring an end to all this.

 

but it’s quite clear that this deal has zero chance. She’ll lose and it’s a waste of time even putting it to a vote.

 

she then has to resign, surely. At which point I assume we get a general election. Chaos.

Indeed. All to keep a few tory backbenchers and UKIP happy. 

 

I see the pound is now at its lowest in 33 years! 33 Years! A third of a century. This is madness and it has to stop.

[Justin Z]

6 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

Indeed. All to keep a few tory backbenchers and UKIP happy. 

 

I see the pound is now at its lowest in 33 years! 33 Years! A third of a century. This is madness and it has to stop.

 

Not seeing that on the charts I'm looking at. It's higher than it was against the dollar by a few p in the months following the vote in 2016 (where it hit $1.21--it's at about $1.27 right now) and against the Euro during the 08-09 economic crisis where the two nearly hit parity with each other (it's about €1.12 right now)

[Pans Jambo]

39 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

Not seeing that on the charts I'm looking at. It's higher than it was against the dollar by a few p in the months following the vote in 2016 (where it hit $1.21--it's at about $1.27 right now) and against the Euro during the 08-09 economic crisis where the two nearly hit parity with each other (it's about €1.12 right now)

Euro wasnt around 33 years ago (Jan 1999).

 

Last time the Sterling was as low against the USD (other than since all this Brexit shit started) was 1985.

 

[Justin Z]

9 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

Euro wasnt around 33 years ago (Jan 1999).

 

Last time the Sterling was as low against the USD (other than since all this Brexit shit started) was 1985.

 

 

If you're talking the entirety of Brexit, then yes. It dropped to $1.21, like I said, in the months following the vote. But right now? It's 6-7¢ higher than that.  That the Euro wasn't around 33 years ago isn't really relevant to what it seemed you were saying--that right this second the pound is at a 33 year low. It's not by any major measure even at a three year low, much less a decades-long low.

 

But it's undeniable that speculator response to Brexit overall has driven the currency's value down over a period of years.

[RobboM]

2 hours ago, Victorian said:

 

They were in contempt by not complying with the commons vote to have it published in full.     At the same time they said thd full advice contained nothing of any note.    When found in contempt,   they said they would comply with parliament's will as if they were acting honourably... they had already failed to comply.     The contempt 'charge' should still be active but it will be forgotten about in practice.

 

If there is something in the full advice then parliament has been misled again.    There was a full assurance in that regard.    I really can't imagine much more tolerance from MPs to their routine and arrogant dishonesty.

 

If there is no further relevant detail then they have defied parliament for no good reason.

 

 

Ah yes, the old  "Dave King" defence ?

[Boris]

1 hour ago, Cruyff Turn said:

U.K. cannot leave the EU if the backstop remains in place and would be subject to protracted and repeating rounds of negotiations.

 

Britain, Scotland & England could leave the EU leaving N.Ireland in the EU. N.Ireland would have to then be given the powers to allow this to happen and be treated as a “3rd Country”, separate from Britain.

 

So England would be ripping Scotland out of the EU, not the U.K.  N.Ireland would be at a significant advantage to Scotland and given the powers to enable them to be treated separately. Shambles. The U.K. is a constitutional cluster****.

And the blame for that lies at Westminster. They consecrated these devolved institutions. 

[Cruyff Turn]

12 minutes ago, Boris said:

And the blame for that lies at Westminster. They consecrated these devolved institutions. 

Indeed, they have ridden roughshod over Scotland throughout the entire process, zero fecks given. 

[Pans Jambo]

42 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

If you're talking the entirety of Brexit, then yes. It dropped to $1.21, like I said, in the months following the vote. But right now? It's 6-7¢ higher than that.  That the Euro wasn't around 33 years ago isn't really relevant to what it seemed you were saying--that right this second the pound is at a 33 year low. It's not by any major measure even at a three year low, much less a decades-long low.

 

But it's undeniable that speculator response to Brexit overall has driven the currency's value down over a period of years.

I didnt mention the Euro in my post. I said its at its lowest in 33 years. 

 

I meant against the USD since the Brexit vote. OK its up & down a few cents every week/month but on the whole its at its lowest in 33 years.

 

Its a cluster feck of a thing Brexit and it will be interesting to see how this plays out when the vote goes against May on Tuesday.

 

Anyway, kids wont be going across the pond to Disneyland anytime soon with that exchange rate!

 

https://www.poundsterlinglive.com/bank-of-england-spot/historical-spot-exchange-rates/gbp/GBP-to-USD

 

Edited December 5, 2018 by Pans Jambo

[ri Alban]

2 hours ago, Cruyff Turn said:

U.K. cannot leave the EU if the backstop remains in place and would be subject to protracted and repeating rounds of negotiations.

 

Britain, Scotland & England could leave the EU leaving N.Ireland in the EU. N.Ireland would have to then be given the powers to allow this to happen and be treated as a “3rd Country”, separate from Britain.

 

So England would be ripping Scotland out of the EU, not the U.K.  N.Ireland would be at a significant advantage to Scotland and given the powers to enable them to be treated separately. Shambles. The U.K. is a constitutional cluster****.

Michael Gove thinks he's a wee fly man. He said we can all use NI to trade with Europe. He has no shame.

[Mikey1874]

3 hours ago, Pans Jambo said:

They care not a jot to even have the respect to listen. 

 

 

 

Fair enough 

 

SNP don't want to be there 

[Pans Jambo]

15 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Fair enough 

 

SNP don't want to be there 

They dont. But thats not the point is it. 

[Sidelight]

15 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Closer integration in many areas? Sure, this is an interdependent world. In which any EU member acting by itself has next to no power and no influence.

 

Superstate? Gimme a break. No chance at all. 

I stand in awe, Shaun.

And looking forward with breath bated, to the day that you reveal the secrets of creation.

Thank you.

 

Edited December 5, 2018 by alfajambo

[jake]

1 hour ago, Pans Jambo said:

Euro wasnt around 33 years ago (Jan 1999).

 

Last time the Sterling was as low against the USD (other than since all this Brexit shit started) was 1985.

 

Isn't a low pound good for exports?

 

 

[Francis Albert]

1 hour ago, Boris said:

And the blame for that lies at Westminster. They consecrated these devolved institutions. 

"Consecrated"???

Yes the evil Westminster imposed devolution against the fierce opposition of the Nationalists?

 

[ri Alban]

6 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

"Consecrated"???

Yes the evil Westminster imposed devolution against the fierce opposition of the Nationalists?

 

The Tory voted against it.

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

6 hours ago, SE16 3LN said:

Boris is a *****, what's your point.

He's a racist.

Maybe not to everyone, I suppose. 

[Francis Albert]

29 minutes ago, jake said:

Isn't a low pound good for exports?

 

 

It is. And most of the eurozone is trapped with a grossly overvalued currency competing with Germany with a massively undervalued one leading to long term stagnation and mass unemployment. Not something the europhiles care about.

[ri Alban]

How has " no TM deal, no deal" become no TM deal, no Brexit".

[Francis Albert]

23 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

The Tory voted against it.

He or she  wasn't to blame then. Or if you meant Tories they weren't.

[Pans Jambo]

34 minutes ago, jake said:

Isn't a low pound good for exports?

 

 

Is that your silver lining Jake? We can export stuff we no longer manufacture but pay through the nose twice to import the things we need?

 

[Ibrahim Tall]

1 hour ago, jake said:

Isn't a low pound good for exports?

 

 

 

Not necessarily, given mining, steel manufacture etc has completely died a death in the U.K. you’re paying extra for the raw materials.

 

Can only speak from personal experience but the company I work for is a major exporter all over the EU and abroad, yeah a shit pound makes our product more ‘affordable’ for the customer in theory but we would have to import the copper, steel, aluminium, circuit boards etc at a premium.

[Mikey1874]

This issue doesn't seem to be influencing people too much (yet)

 

 

[Francis Albert]

And remain nearly won it by legally spending £9m of taxpayers money on a propaganda leaflet sent to every household.

Remain lost but the way things are going may well end up winning anyway in a "triumph for parliamentary democracy".

[ri Alban]

1 hour ago, Francis Albert said:

He or she  wasn't to blame then. Or if you meant Tories they weren't.

The Tory, as in all.  

[Unknown user]

2 hours ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Fair enough 

 

SNP don't want to be there 

 

Fair enough? You think it's fair enough that the house empties when a representative of the Scottish electorate stands up to speak? That's democracy is it? That's fair?

 

Not enough of these

[Francis Albert]

9 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

The Tory, as in all.  

If nothig else current events suggest the Tory is not a singular noun.

[Ibrahim Tall]

6 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

And remain nearly won it by legally spending £9m of taxpayers money on a propaganda leaflet sent to every household.

Remain lost but the way things are going may well end up winning anyway in a "triumph for parliamentary democracy".

 

It's not a case of 'winning' or 'losing', what's best for the UK and Uk citizens is what's important. If as is becoming clear that's to 'remain' rather than sign a ridiculous deal that no one "voted" for or worse jump off the cliff of uncertainty that is 'no deal' then we all "win".

 

 

[Mikey1874]

2 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Fair enough? You think it's fair enough that the house empties when a representative of the Scottish electorate stands up to speak? That's democracy is it? That's fair?

 

Not enough of these

 

Speaker told them off today for not being there for the closing speech. 

 

But SNP are only there to promote Independence. I would walk out on them. 

[Francis Albert]

4 minutes ago, Ibrahim Tall said:

 

It's not a case of 'winning' or 'losing', what's best for the UK and Uk citizens is what's important. If as is becoming clear that's to 'remain' rather than sign a ridiculous deal that no one "voted" for or worse jump off the cliff of uncertainty that is 'no deal' then we all "win".

 

 

The contempt for the 17 plus million who voted leave is remarkable. 

Edited December 5, 2018 by Francis Albert

[Unknown user]

1 minute ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Speaker told them off today for not being there for the closing speech. 

 

But SNP are only there to promote Independence. I would walk out on them. 

 

They're there to represent their constituents in a democratic house, it's a disgrace

[Mikey1874]

Option set out here to remain in EEA

 

 

[Stuart Lyon]

The contempt shown by those who lead the Brexit campaign on lies and fraudulent manipulation of the electorate is worse Francis Albert!

Edited December 5, 2018 by Stuart Lyon

[Mikey1874]

1 minute ago, Smithee said:

 

They're there to represent their constituents in a democratic house, it's a disgrace

 

It is generally pretty empty for this debate 

[Francis Albert]

7 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Fair enough? You think it's fair enough that the house empties when a representative of the Scottish electorate stands up to speak? That's democracy is it? That's fair?

 

Not enough of these

The House always empties when minor parties are speaking. 

[Francis Albert]

7 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Fair enough? You think it's fair enough that the house empties when a representative of the Scottish electorate stands up to speak? That's democracy is it? That's fair?

 

Not enough of these

The House always empties when minor parties are speaking. 

[Ibrahim Tall]

6 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

The contempt for the 17 plus million who voted leave is remarkable. 

 

17m who voted for something that wasn't even on the table, did the 17m vote for becoming effectively a 2nd class citizen of the EU? In the 'stop gap' deal that's effectively what the UK becomes, N Ireland basically remain in and 'we' only get it back if we agree to whatever the EU wants in future negotiations. 

 

Or did they vote for annihilating the economy by leaving without any deal what so ever? If so, I must have missed that leaflet..

Edited December 5, 2018 by Ibrahim Tall

[Cade]

One by one, the "arguments" those 17 million people had have been debunked as myths over the last two years.

 

Many millions of them were lied to and voted according to those lies.

 

Of course, there are still die hard Brexiters who will never change their minds. 

The mega-rich who fear the EU's lead in the global fight against tax havens and tax loopholes.

The spivs who want to open the NHS and all other public services to overseas private firms.

The many deluded fools who have dreams of Empire.

The racists.

 

 

[Francis Albert]

The biggest lie is turning out to be 

that the outcome of the referendum vote would be respected.

 

[Ibrahim Tall]

1 minute ago, Francis Albert said:

The biggest lie is turning out to be 

that the outcome of the referendum vote would be respected.

 

The biggest lie was it was ever a 'referendum'. If it was to ever have taken place it was post negotiations not pre. You can't/shouldn't have a vote without knowing what you're actually voting for.

[Victorian]

Placing more importance on the notion that a vote has to be respected than on what is now in the national interest is the most myopic,  dumbest,  backwards attitude.

 

A vote is set aside under exceptional circumstances.      No practical effect.

 

A vote is followed through despite the undoubted damage it causes.     People lose their jobs,   businesses,   standard of living,   savings,   property values,   prospects,   childrens' prospects,   etc.

 

A further referendum would be an up to date verdict by the public.    Automatically making the last one obsolete.     There is no practical reason whatsoever to 'respect' a verdict that was obtained via corrupt and uninformed means.

[shaun.lawson]

43 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

The contempt for the 17 plus million who voted leave is remarkable. 

 

The contempt you have for facts, basic common sense, or Parliamentary sovereignty, is far more remarkable.

 

Months and months back, posters like Ulysses and myself highlighted two things.

 

1. Leaving the customs union and maintaining a soft border in Ireland is impossible

 

2. Leaving the single market and maintaining frictionless trade is also impossible.

 

Your response was to dodge, deflect, evade, and whatabout. And that your problem is with Parliament - charged with saving the UK from an utter disaster - and not Leave, who lied, lied, lied and lied some more throughout the campaign, promising the electorate the moon on a stick and providing no detail whatsoever, is just astonishing.

 

Democracy is not some fixed moment in time followed by another fixed moment in time 41 years later. It is an ever-evolving organism, which responds to events and changes as they happen. The UK has a system of representative democracy. This Parliament was elected last year, and its representatives reflect the expressed will of the people at that election. Not only that - but Leave voters voted to 'take back control' through Parliamentary sovereignty. Which is precisely what Parliament, thank God, is exercising now. 

 

It seems to me, Francis, that you'd be quite happy if the UK turned into Upper Volta with nuclear weapons. Just as long as the referendum result was 'respected'.

[Francis Albert]

28 minutes ago, Ibrahim Tall said:

The biggest lie was it was ever a 'referendum'. If it was to ever have taken place it was post negotiations not pre. You can't/shouldn't have a vote without knowing what you're actually voting for.

The EU showed not the slightest inclination to negotiate anything before Article 50 was invoked. 

While the remain campaign to reverse the vote began the day after the vote itrespective of any outcome of negotiations.

[shaun.lawson]

15 minutes ago, Victorian said:

Placing more importance on the notion that a vote has to be respected than on what is now in the national interest is the most myopic,  dumbest,  backwards attitude.

 

A vote is set aside under exceptional circumstances.      No practical effect.

 

A vote is followed through despite the undoubted damage it causes.     People lose their jobs,   businesses,   standard of living,   savings,   property values,   prospects,   childrens' prospects,   etc.

 

A further referendum would be an up to date verdict by the public.    Automatically making the last one obsolete.     There is no practical reason whatsoever to 'respect' a verdict that was obtained via corrupt and uninformed means.

 

Quite.

 

WHY WON'T PARLIAMENT RESPECT THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE EXPRESSED IN 1975? I DEMAND ANSWERS

[Victorian]

Respecting that referendum result is akin to recognising a pickpocket owns the purse he's just chored out of an auld woman's bag.    Any and all ideas that there is an obligation to uphold democratic will of a deeply flawed and discredited result should be called out and ridiculed at every turn.

 

Anyone spouting that nonsense needs to seriously rethink their mindset.

[shaun.lawson]

11 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

The EU showed not the slightest inclination to negotiate anything before Article 50 was invoked. 

 

 

This is the official Vote Leave leaflet. Not Leave.EU; Vote Leave, the campaign headed by Johnson and Gove.

 

http://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/themes/55fd82d8ebad646cec000001/attachments/original/1463496002/Why_Vote_Leave.pdf?1463496002

 

Page 11: "Taking back control is a careful change, not a sudden stop - we will negotiate the terms of a new deal before we start any legal process to leave".

 

Lying *******s.

 

And yes: I can most certainly call them lying *******s when:

 

1. Leave had no actual plan for what would happen if we voted to Leave.

 

2. Hard Brexiteers - made up of those who campaigned for and voted Leave, in other words - and their right wing media backers, spent the months after the referendum demanding May triggered Article 50 as soon as possible. Anything else would be to "betray the will of the people".

 

And on the subject of lying *******s, I make no apologies for re-posting this video. How low can a campaign go? This low:

 

 

Oh yes Francis, of course people knew what they were voting for. That Leave saw fit to lie non-stop throughout, break electoral law and use huge amounts of dark money is just some total irrelevance.

 

 

Edited December 5, 2018 by shaun.lawson

[AlimOzturk]

5 minutes ago, Victorian said:

Placing more importance on the notion that a vote has to be respected than on what is now in the national interest is the most myopic,  dumbest,  backwards attitude.

 

A vote is set aside under exceptional circumstances.      No practical effect.

 

A vote is followed through despite the undoubted damage it causes.     People lose their jobs,   businesses,   standard of living,   savings,   property values,   prospects,   childrens' prospects,   etc.

 

A further referendum would be an up to date verdict by the public.    Automatically making the last one obsolete.     There is no practical reason whatsoever to 'respect' a verdict that was obtained via corrupt and uninformed means.

 

I don't think a further vote would make a difference TBH. There sill still be the divisions amongst the nation and those that lead us and if the vote goes the other direction there will be so much bitterness. Who knows...it could get even worse than that. Protests and even riots would most likely be the result. 

 

And if the vote says leave again which is a real possibility...what then? Just more time wasted. 

 

The solution was not having a referendum in the first place. Not allowing nutcases like Boris Johnson, Gove, Mogg and Nigel Farage the chance to ruin this country. However that ships sailed thanks to Cameron and the Tories. 

 

We have to see this through as far as I am concerned for the sake of democracy and a chance to heal wounds. Stop all these referendums and stop all the political bitterness. All the parties need to put aside difference and make the best of a bad situation. 

[jake]

2 hours ago, Pans Jambo said:

Is that your silver lining Jake? We can export stuff we no longer manufacture but pay through the nose twice to import the things we need?

 

Not a silver lining.

Just pointing out a fact.

[The Mighty Thor]

3 hours ago, jake said:

Isn't a low pound good for exports?

 

 

Yes in the same way that blowing your feet off with a shotgun would save you money on shoes.