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Brexit Negotiations

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Sraman

Im not excusing torie cuts or bankers greed.

And im not blaming the weakest.

Its the weakest who generally suffer though.

Face up to it .

Economic migrants are generally coming from poor economies.

No ones blaming them .

Is everyone seriously suggest no limits.

Or are we only allowing europeans in.

 

The facts are that there is a serious problem from conflicts caused by the west of course.

But to simply say that we allow unchecked immigration is not how we shoild deal with it.

Its self evident that tensions are already there.

And no amount of political correctness will solve it.

 

And lets remind ourselves we are responsible due to foreign policy in Syria and Lybia for example.

 

And unchecked immigration from Europe doesnt leave much scope for refugees escaping real horror.

 

That's all fine and well but if you want to get rid of a few thousand could we start with the Angles and the Saxons please? Given that they are the ones that have got us into this situation in the first place I think it's only fair that we get shot of them and try a new lot.

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Space Mackerel

Lots to do with it.

Lots to do with inequality in global finance.

Yet, you're quite happy to let these million and billionaires from the far right of the Conservative party and their cohorts lead you into the economic unknowns?

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jake

Yet, you're quite happy to let these million and billionaires from the far right of the Conservative party and their cohorts lead you into the economic unknowns?

 

No.

That doesnt mean im happy with the EU .

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jake

That's all fine and well but if you want to get rid of a few thousand could we start with the Angles and the Saxons please? Given that they are the ones that have got us into this situation in the first place I think it's only fair that we get shot of them and try a new lot.

 

Whose talking about getting rid of anyone?

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jake

The uk doesn't actually have unchecked immigration though, most countries' nationals need visas to emigrate to the uk. The camps in calais would seem to confirm that it really isn't the free for all the media would have us believe.

 

As it should be for all.

And the camps in calais are there because of the problems europe has.

This isnt even just about the here and now.

This is a growing and serious problem.

And it really does need people to think in a different way.

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jake

Yet, you're quite happy to let these million and billionaires from the far right of the Conservative party and their cohorts lead you into the economic unknowns?

 

You know space the same argument is levelled at those who vote for snp.

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Smithee

As it should be for all.

And the camps in calais are there because of the problems europe has.

This isnt even just about the here and now.

This is a growing and serious problem.

And it really does need people to think in a different way.

Jake you're talking about unchecked immigration as if it's likely if we don't leave the EU but it simply isn't an issue that the uk faces. Even now GB isn't in the Schengen area so you need a passport to get in, and if that's not an EU passport you better have the necessary visas.

Unchecked immigration isn't happening now, it won't happen in the future and no one's suggesting it as a good idea, so it's a classic strawman.

Edited by ManMoth

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Space Mackerel

No.

That doesnt mean im happy with the EU .

What did you think was going to happen after a Leave vote?

 

Do you honestly think your Jacob Reece Moggs, Nigel Farages and Aaron Banks and the rest of the upper class English Nationalists give a shiny shite about you?

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jake

Jake you're talking about unchecked immigration as if it's likely if we don't leave the EU but it simply isn't an issue that the uk faces. Even now GB isn't in the Schengen area so you need a passport to get in, and if that's not an EU passport you better have the necessary visas.

Unchecked immigration isn't happening now, it won't happen in the future and no one's suggesting it as a good idea, so it's a classic strawman.

 

You can live and work here without a visa if you are a EU citizen.

Thats what i meant.

Sorry for the ambiguity.

Im not against migration.

It just needs managed.

And rhetoric such as Nicola Sturgeons is pathetic.

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jake

What did you think was going to happen after a Leave vote?

 

Do you honestly think your Jacob Reece Moggs, Nigel Farages and Aaron Banks and the rest of the upper class English Nationalists give a shiny shite about you?

 

Space why do i have to be classed in the same boat as them.

Can you not ask if Tony Benn George Galloway and many more prominent anti EU people give a shiny shit.

 

Do you think Nocola Sturgeon gives a shiny shit about the refugees she claimed she would house.

Amd she has the cheek to make claims of moral bankruptcy.

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Space Mackerel

Space why do i have to be classed in the same boat as them.

Can you not ask if Tony Benn George Galloway and many more prominent anti EU people give a shiny shit.

 

Do you think Nocola Sturgeon gives a shiny shit about the refugees she claimed she would house.

Amd she has the cheek to make claims of moral bankruptcy.

I've heard 1 genuine working class far left positive argument from the leader of the Railway workers Union in Scotland. Take a guess what it is?

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Martin_T

Haven't caught up on the all the recent points, but has the massive labour shortages that the government's proposed immigration policy will cause in both the food production and hospitality industries been covered yet?

 

Or are we seriously expecting a baby boom and consequently a glut of British youth ready to fill these roles?

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Cade

Haven't caught up on the all the recent points, but has the massive labour shortages that the government's proposed immigration policy will cause in both the food production and hospitality industries been covered yet?

 

Or are we seriously expecting a baby boom and consequently a glut of British youth ready to fill these roles?

Jobcentres will simply fill them with free "workfare" labour.

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jake

Haven't caught up on the all the recent points, but has the massive labour shortages that the government's proposed immigration policy will cause in both the food production and hospitality industries been covered yet?

 

Or are we seriously expecting a baby boom and consequently a glut of British youth ready to fill these roles?

 

Of course the good old argument of the politically correct.

Get the migrants to do the shit jobs who else will do it.

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Space Mackerel

Haven't caught up on the all the recent points, but has the massive labour shortages that the government's proposed immigration policy will cause in both the food production and hospitality industries been covered yet?

 

Or are we seriously expecting a baby boom and consequently a glut of British youth ready to fill these roles?

Once we finish our normal "9-5" jobs, Mein Goveramentankloff is sending us all up Forfar and East Lothian to pick fruit and dig tatties.

 

That's the plan.

Edited by Space Mackerel

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jake

Jobcentres will simply fill them with free "workfare" labour.

 

Or people like you will fill them with minium wage or less eastern europeans and have them live in shitholes.

How progressive of you.

 

What brave new socialists we have.

 

Of course this is exactly what freedom of movement was meant to bring the fredom of cheap labour.

 

 

My god once upon a time socialism was internationalist.

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jake

Once we finish our normal "9-5" jobs, Mein Goveramentankloff is sending us up Forfar to pick fruit and dig tatties.

 

That's the plan.

 

No the plan is to keep profits high and wages low.

 

Do you really believe the young spanish want to work in a scottish mushroom farm form minium rate whilst staying in a fekin caravan.

 

Wake up spacey .

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Space Mackerel

No the plan is to keep profits high and wages low.

 

Do you really believe the young spanish want to work in a scottish mushroom farm form minium rate whilst staying in a fekin caravan.

 

Wake up spacey .

Still waiting on you guessing why the leader of the RMT in Scotland wanted to leave the EU. Take a guess. You're halfway there.

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Boris

Or people like you will fill them with minium wage or less eastern europeans and have them live in shitholes.

How progressive of you.

 

What brave new socialists we have.

 

Of course this is exactly what freedom of movement was meant to bring the fredom of cheap labour.

 

 

My god once upon a time socialism was internationalist.

Hang on, it's not socialists that are paying the shit wages. Capitalism has allowed this wage slavery. Doesn't matter where you are from, the Boss still wants to maximise his profits.

 

But here's the rub, globalisation has led to migrant Labour, although it's not a new thing, but consumers won't pay the true price. Or can't, if they aren't paid enough. So we have a credit bubble. The whole system is a facade, built on sand.

Immigration isn't really the issue at all, it's the exploitation of the masses, aided and abetted by divide and conquer tactics.

 

True socialists are internationalists.

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Boris

Still waiting on you guessing why the leader of the RMT in Scotland wanted to leave the EU. Take a guess. You're halfway there.

Because it's a capitalist gravy train, against state ownership of the means of production. Plenty of socialist reasons for leaving the eu, some I can appreciate. Unfortunately we are leaving for the completely opposite reasons.

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Space Mackerel

Because it's a capitalist gravy train, against state ownership of the means of production. Plenty of socialist reasons for leaving the eu, some I can appreciate. Unfortunately we are leaving for the completely opposite reasons.

Half right Boris.

 

The reason he instructed his members to vote leave was that EU tendering rules for ferrys/rail etc has forced his members wages down over the years which is correct IMHO.

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jake

Still waiting on you guessing why the leader of the RMT in Scotland wanted to leave the EU. Take a guess. You're halfway there.

 

Just tell me .

I could google it.

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Boris

Half right Boris.

 

The reason he instructed his members to vote leave was that EU tendering rules for ferrys/rail etc has forced his members wages down over the years which is correct IMHO.

Correct to leave, or correct to force wages down? :wink:

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Space Mackerel

Correct to leave, or correct to force wages down? :wink:

Someone is always going to force wages down in any capitalist system. :-)

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Ulysses

According to the Guardian, the EU is to set out five position papers that will either:

 

 

- inflame and provoke the UK, especially Brexiteers, or else

 

- set out the stark realities involved in separating the UK from the EU, particularly regarding the land frontier with Ireland

 

 

depending on your point of view.

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/sep/06/britain-must-solve-problem-of-irish-border-post-brexit-say-leaked-eu-papers

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Martin_T

Of course the good old argument of the politically correct.

Get the migrants to do the shit jobs who else will do it.

It's pragmatism. There are no British workers currently willing to do these jobs. British people gain however from both the supply of services and goods and of course the taxation of the underlying workers.

 

If these goods become more scarce, basic supply and demand dictates they will become more expensive, which primarily impacts the poorest people in society.

 

I can see the socialist argument for Brexit as yes it's true the EU locks in a capitalist hegemony, however you have to be naive at best, stupid at worst to think that this is being driven by anyone other than the hard right of the conservative party. The same people who would happily grind the bones of poor people into dust.

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Space Mackerel

According to the Guardian, the EU is to set out five position papers that will either:

 

 

- inflame and provoke the UK, especially Brexiteers, or else

 

- set out the stark realities involved in separating the UK from the EU, particularly regarding the land frontier with Ireland

 

 

depending on your point of view.

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/sep/06/britain-must-solve-problem-of-irish-border-post-brexit-say-leaked-eu-papers

That'll be interesting with the DUP holding Mays majority [emoji23]

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jake

Ok boris and spacey.

 

Immigrants have always been the bogeyman for right wing agendas.

 

And im in no doubt that immigrants have enriched this country.

 

But the world is a different place.

Where poverty is nothing like we can imagine.

Where people cross high seas in terrible conditions to reach europe australia etc.

 

So it goes for poorer EU nationals.

 

What is it you both offer ?

 

To let everyone come here?

 

Do these people move in with Nicola spacey?

Do they receive housing in morningside?

 

The answer lies in a fairer world of course but how likely is that.

 

So who gets to come ?

 

We can barely house educate those who are here without standards falling.

I dont blame immigrants but to say who will do our shit jobs for shit money is as offensive and borderline racist as anything brexit voters are accused of.

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Space Mackerel

Ok boris and spacey.

 

Immigrants have always been the bogeyman for right wing agendas.

 

And im in no doubt that immigrants have enriched this country.

 

But the world is a different place.

Where poverty is nothing like we can imagine.

Where people cross high seas in terrible conditions to reach europe australia etc.

 

So it goes for poorer EU nationals.

 

What is it you both offer ?

 

To let everyone come here?

 

Do these people move in with Nicola spacey?

Do they receive housing in morningside?

 

The answer lies in a fairer world of course but how likely is that.

 

So who gets to come ?

 

We can barely house educate those who are here without standards falling.

I dont blame immigrants but to say who will do our shit jobs for shit money is as offensive and borderline racist as anything brexit voters are accused of.

I don't have the answers to UK's problems but I do know what has led us here to be in this predicament.

 

And it ain't a few migrants.

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Martin_T

Ok boris and spacey.

 

Immigrants have always been the bogeyman for right wing agendas.

 

And im in no doubt that immigrants have enriched this country.

 

But the world is a different place.

Where poverty is nothing like we can imagine.

Where people cross high seas in terrible conditions to reach europe australia etc.

 

So it goes for poorer EU nationals.

 

What is it you both offer ?

 

To let everyone come here?

 

Do these people move in with Nicola spacey?

Do they receive housing in morningside?

 

The answer lies in a fairer world of course but how likely is that.

 

So who gets to come ?

 

We can barely house educate those who are here without standards falling.

I dont blame immigrants but to say who will do our shit jobs for shit money is as offensive and borderline racist as anything brexit voters are accused of.

It's hardly racist (but then you knew that already), it's simple labour market economics. Labour moves to where there is demand.

 

As I said in my previous post, it's pragmatism. Life fundamentally isn't fair and never will be.

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jake

It's pragmatism. There are no British workers currently willing to do these jobs. British people gain however from both the supply of services and goods and of course the taxation of the underlying workers.

 

If these goods become more scarce, basic supply and demand dictates they will become more expensive, which primarily impacts the poorest people in society.

 

I can see the socialist argument for Brexit as yes it's true the EU locks in a capitalist hegemony, however you have to be naive at best, stupid at worst to think that this is being driven by anyone other than the hard right of the conservative party. The same people who would happily grind the bones of poor people into dust.

 

Im well aware how we got here.

And why we were presented with this vote.

 

It produced strange bedfellows as did the case for better together.

 

I believe freedom of movement weakens workers rights and that ultimately the EU weakens democracy and in fact does everything to prevent it when it doesnt suit.

 

I believe that the EU could have prevented the greek scenario for example but chose to protect german banks.

That in a nutshell is what will continue to happen as the capitalist system in europe inevitably shrinks.

 

British workers stand a better chance outside this .

Anyway fanciful thinking from me that to try and discuss immigration without people immediately thinking racist.

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jake

It's hardly racist (but then you knew that already), it's simple labour market economics. Labour moves to where there is demand.

 

As I said in my previous post, it's pragmatism. Life fundamentally isn't fair and never will be.

 

It isnt fair you are right.

 

And no its not racist.

 

Just flipping the coin.

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jake

I don't have the answers to UK's problems but I do know what has led us here to be in this predicament.

 

And it ain't a few migrants.

 

Yet again you insinuate i said it was immigrants.

 

To be honest space you are the one who blames nationality not me.

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Boris

Ok boris and spacey.

Immigrants have always been the bogeyman for right wing agendas.

And im in no doubt that immigrants have enriched this country.

But the world is a different place.

Where poverty is nothing like we can imagine.

Where people cross high seas in terrible conditions to reach europe australia etc.

So it goes for poorer EU nationals.

What is it you both offer ?

To let everyone come here?

Do these people move in with Nicola spacey?

Do they receive housing in morningside?

The answer lies in a fairer world of course but how likely is that.

So who gets to come ?

We can barely house educate those who are here without standards falling.

I dont blame immigrants but to say who will do our shit jobs for shit money is as offensive and borderline racist as anything brexit voters are accused of.

What's the difference between a poorer eu national coming here for work, a rich eu national leaving here to work in Frankfurt, or Amsterdam? Nothing.

 

Our problems with health and education are not due to the eu or immigration.

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Boris

I can see the socialist argument for Brexit as yes it's true the EU locks in a capitalist hegemony, however you have to be naive at best, stupid at worst to think that this is being driven by anyone other than the hard right of the conservative party. The same people who would happily grind the bones of poor people into dust.

This.

 

Problem is for the Tory retro empire fantasists, we don't have slavery to build the empire up, nor colonies to exploit and fore trade with. Capitalism is built on suffering.

 

To quote Baddiel and Skinner, "it's coming home, it's coming home...".

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jake

According to the Guardian, the EU is to set out five position papers that will either:

 

 

- inflame and provoke the UK, especially Brexiteers, or else

 

- set out the stark realities involved in separating the UK from the EU, particularly regarding the land frontier with Ireland

 

 

depending on your point of view.

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/sep/06/britain-must-solve-problem-of-irish-border-post-brexit-say-leaked-eu-papers

 

Avoiding the obvious problem of the DUP.

If indeed the EU are leaving the irish border question to the UK and Ireland to sort out that imo is a positive.

 

As for the other points its only to be expected that the EU wish to protect their products.

Guarentees of data protection i would suppose go without saying.

There is of course UK products that would in turn be protected.

 

Once upon a time the Guardian could be read and used to either balance your viewpoint or inform.

I have as much regard for it especially over matters such as brexit as i do the sun.

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jake

What's the difference between a poorer eu national coming here for work, a rich eu national leaving here to work in Frankfurt, or Amsterdam? Nothing.

 

Our problems with health and education are not due to the eu or immigration.

 

No education and housing no doubt are not great due to a plethora of reasons.

However when pressures on these are made worse by unplanned immigration its the poor who are affected.

If a rich business national does leave here for frankfurt the chances are he or she will not place an even greater strain on those services.

 

But you miss my point anyway.

I dont argue for cuts to health education or the mess thats housing.

I dont blame imigrants for that.

 

Ive already countless times argued why i think freedom of movement is a false flag.

 

I work beside and live next to and im close friends with plenty migrants.

Some but very few wish to be here.

Most do so out of necessity.

Some leave behind family.

Most pay high rents.A lot overcrowd flats.

 

And quite a lot do jobs that they are over qualified for.

And nearly all miss home.

And a lot are wary of brexit.

But nearly all see the EU for what it is.

And all have stories to tell where their rights as workers were not protected.

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jake

According to the Guardian, the EU is to set out five position papers that will either:

 

 

- inflame and provoke the UK, especially Brexiteers, or else

 

- set out the stark realities involved in separating the UK from the EU, particularly regarding the land frontier with Ireland

 

 

depending on your point of view.

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/sep/06/britain-must-solve-problem-of-irish-border-post-brexit-say-leaked-eu-papers

 

Can i add the one thing that bothers me is the EU companies which win contracts.

Now in this country its not likely to be an issue.

And forgive me for my sketchiness on this.

But if a company for instance wins a contract under these conditions and after brexit was to say to well paid workers.

Your money and conditions will be cut .

They could bring in lower paid workers to do that.

Dont like it lump it and if our laws said they couldnt then they could sue our government .

Sound far fetched?

Its already happened .

Im sorry im typing of the bat here but i can show links.

 

Its also part of the deal thrashed out on a world trade deal.

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Martin_T

This.

 

Problem is for the Tory retro empire fantasists, we don't have slavery to build the empire up, nor colonies to exploit and fore trade with. Capitalism is built on suffering.

 

To quote Baddiel and Skinner, "it's coming home, it's coming home...".

Equally there's no prospect of a fundamental redistribution of wealth or reorganisation of society on fairer lines. So again it comes back to pragmatism, what is the most practical and stabilising position? The status quo.

 

There's demand for the labour at the price dictated by the market, the supply happens to come from Eastern Europe where wages and living standards are relatively lower. People benefit from the services and goods provided at a lower price, the workers benefit from the wages supplied. It's not a question of nationality, it's basic economics.

 

In any event a truly fair society should not even consider an individual's nationality or race. Which is why I find the socialist argument for Brexit to be trite.

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jake

Equally there's no prospect of a fundamental redistribution of wealth or reorganisation of society on fairer lines. So again it comes back to pragmatism, what is the most practical and stabilising position? The status quo.

 

There's demand for the labour at the price dictated by the market, the supply happens to come from Eastern Europe where wages and living standards are relatively lower. People benefit from the services and goods provided at a lower price, the workers benefit from the wages supplied. It's not a question of nationality, it's basic economics.

 

In any event a truly fair society should not even consider an individual's nationality or race. Which is why I find the socialist argument for Brexit to be trite.

 

No it should not consider their nationality.

But a society must be able to plan .

And that clearly cannot happen when unrestricted migration is allowed to happen.

You cannot say on the one hand lifes not fair then say but thats not fair.

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Martin_T

No it should not consider their nationality.

But a society must be able to plan .

And that clearly cannot happen when unrestricted migration is allowed to happen.

You cannot say on the one hand lifes not fair then say but thats not fair.

There's probably a compromise to be made as we neither live in a fully planned or fully market based economy.

 

What I do know is that in industries that rely on a supply of cheaper labour, restricting the supply of workers will cause a reduction in the supply of the goods and services, pushing up prices if demand remains static and ultimately negatively impacting the poorest in society first.

 

Restricting economic migration will neither create jobs in the migrants country of origin or benefit industry in the country they are trying to migrate to.

 

The net result is everyone is worse off. The pragmatic solution therefore remains to retain the status quo.

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jake

There's probably a compromise to be made as we neither live in a fully planned or fully market based economy.

 

What I do know is that in industries that rely on a supply of cheaper labour, restricting the supply of workers will cause a reduction in the supply of the goods and services, pushing up prices if demand remains static and ultimately negatively impacting the poorest in society first.

 

Restricting economic migration will neither create jobs in the migrants country of origin or benefit industry in the country they are trying to migrate to.

 

The net result is everyone is worse off. The pragmatic solution therefore remains to retain the status quo.

 

Where does this cheap goods stop?

 

It doesnt does it .

Racing to the bottom in fact.

I know im stretching the argument but our demand for cheap goods means children working 12 hours in sweat shops.

 

I buy the products to .

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JamboX2

Fair trade deals and debt reduction.

Its unlikely though.

Im not disagreeing boris.

But to carry on just uncotrolled immigration isnt working.

It's not uncontrolled. You've bought into a lie.

 

The British government has the power within the EU to expel EU migrants who come here and don't get a job within 3 months. They can then set quotas on non-EU migrants. Not to mention implement a refugee and assylum seeker policy distinct of her neighbours. Albeit the last two aren't really migrants and should be viewed differently.

 

Basic facts:

 

- you can't move to another EU nation without work/training/or family based there

- any EU nation can expel another EU national if they arrive without work or are unable to gain work within 3 months

- the UK isn't in Schengen so can control her borders separately (both EU to EU and non-EU travel).

 

The key Jake is the actual name of the fundamental freedom. It's not "Free Movement of People" (as you'd be led to believe by our press), it's "Free Movement of Workers".

 

Here's how "worker" is defined under ECJ case law:

 

"The essential feature of an employment relationship, however, is that for a certain period of time a person performs services for and under the direction of another person in return for which he receives remuneration." - Deborah Lawrie-Blum v Land Baden W?rttemberg, Case 66/85 (1986)

 

So in order to be classed as a worker to have freedom of movement there must be employment which has; (1) a purpose, (2) for a period of time, (3) be for remuneration and (4) at anothers direction.

 

So the above must be met to be a worker for any ability to move for work in another EU nation and for an initial period of time.

 

With all that in mind.... how is immigration to Britain uncontrolled? How?

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JamboX2

I work beside and live next to and im close friends with plenty migrants.

Some but very few wish to be here.

Most do so out of necessity.

Some leave behind family.

Most pay high rents.A lot overcrowd flats.

 

And quite a lot do jobs that they are over qualified for.

And nearly all miss home.

And a lot are wary of brexit.

But nearly all see the EU for what it is.

And all have stories to tell where their rights as workers were not protected.

A lot, if not all, those issues are the fault of national government not the EU.

 

Over-qualification is an increasing issue in the UK and many other nations domestically. The difference is mainly currency value. A poor doctor from Krakow on the Zloti can be paid more in a Newcastle call centre because of currency values being hugely different and that impacting the cost of living.

 

High rents and overcrowding? Failure of national government.

Failure to have employment rights protected? Failure of national government and the erosion of domestic trade union legislation resulting in a de-unionised labour market.

 

The EU is a patsy to national government.

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jake

A lot, if not all, those issues are the fault of national government not the EU.

 

Over-qualification is an increasing issue in the UK and many other nations domestically. The difference is mainly currency value. A poor doctor from Krakow on the Zloti can be paid more in a Newcastle call centre because of currency values being hugely different and that impacting the cost of living.

 

High rents and overcrowding? Failure of national government.

Failure to have employment rights protected? Failure of national government and the erosion of domestic trade union legislation resulting in a de-unionised labour market.

 

The EU is a patsy to national government.

 

I hate when you enter the fray x2.

Lol.

 

 

Thats a compliment btw.

Edited by jake

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Seymour M Hersh

Yet, you're quite happy to let these million and billionaires from the far right of the Conservative party and their cohorts lead you into the economic unknowns?

 

Just like these two far right nutters galactic guppy?

 

post-1316-0-60705600-1504781481_thumb.jpg

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frankblack

A lot, if not all, those issues are the fault of national government not the EU.

 

Over-qualification is an increasing issue in the UK and many other nations domestically. The difference is mainly currency value. A poor doctor from Krakow on the Zloti can be paid more in a Newcastle call centre because of currency values being hugely different and that impacting the cost of living.

 

High rents and overcrowding? Failure of national government.

Failure to have employment rights protected? Failure of national government and the erosion of domestic trade union legislation resulting in a de-unionised labour market.

 

The EU is a patsy to national government.

 

Over qualification could be a side-effect of these people not being able to get work in their desired profession due to companies hiring from overseas to get people below market rates.  One example being IT - I just don't believe that Software Developers have to be recruited from India, for example when there are graduates that could be trained up.

 

Yes - I realise that India isn't in the EU, but I'd like a points based system so we aren't bringing in labour from overseas which is available here.  There are too many companies that don't want to fork out for training or graduate programmes in case these people walk elsewhere for better money.  The same goes with companies that are bleating about not being able to survive without cheap labour yet I bet the owners and shareholders are taking home huge wedges of cash at the expense of their workers.

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Boris

Over qualification could be a side-effect of these people not being able to get work in their desired profession due to companies hiring from overseas to get people below market rates.  One example being IT - I just don't believe that Software Developers have to be recruited from India, for example when there are graduates that could be trained up.

 

Yes - I realise that India isn't in the EU, but I'd like a points based system so we aren't bringing in labour from overseas which is available here.  There are too many companies that don't want to fork out for training or graduate programmes in case these people walk elsewhere for better money.  The same goes with companies that are bleating about not being able to survive without cheap labour yet I bet the owners and shareholders are taking home huge wedges of cash at the expense of their workers.

 

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Space Mackerel

Yet again you insinuate i said it was immigrants.

 

To be honest space you are the one who blames nationality not me.

Voting to leave the EU isn't going to smash the capitalist system around the world, in fact, giving power to the right wing supporting free market and Wall Street stooges in Whitehall only enhances it.

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