Disband the Scottish Conservatives

[joe kickass2]

For the sake of democracy in Scotland the Scottish Conservatives should disband and a new party along the lines of the Christian Democrats in Germany, UMP in France or the Republican party in th USA should be formed.

 

Since Thatcher, Torys in Scotland are unelectable, too English, too much baggage from Poll tax, Rosyth, Linwood, etc.

 

We need a pro-business, libertarian, Scottish party. One that doesn't kowtow to the special interest groups of anti-car, tree hugging environmentalists. Trade unions bank rolling a major party, revolving door courts, let anybody in and claim what they want, heroin addicts, and all manner of dossers need to have an antithesis.

 

At the moment we have the Labour party, SNP and Social Democrat whatevers with hardly the width of a credit card between them.

 

I cannot bring myself to vote for the Tory party and I know others with the same conviction. But we share the same values. I find myself just voting tactically against the lesser of perceived evils.

 

Presume those with a left leaning will naturally oppose this but true democrats must see that an honest plebicite has to have a choice between left and right.

 

Any thoughts?

[Toggie88]

For the sake of democracy in Scotland the Scottish Conservatives should disband and a new party along the lines of the Christian Democrats in Germany, UMP in France or the Republican party in th USA should be formed.

 

Since Thatcher, Torys in Scotland are unelectable, too English, too much baggage from Poll tax, Rosyth, Linwood, etc.

 

We need a pro-business, libertarian, Scottish party. One that doesn't kowtow to the special interest groups of anti-car, tree hugging environmentalists. Trade unions bank rolling a major party, revolving door courts, let anybody in and claim what they want, heroin addicts, and all manner of dossers need to have an antithesis.

 

At the moment we have the Labour party, SNP and Social Democrat whatevers with hardly the width of a credit card between them.

 

I cannot bring myself to vote for the Tory party and I know others with the same conviction. But we share the same values. I find myself just voting tactically against the lesser of perceived evils.

 

Presume those with a left leaning will naturally oppose this but true democrats must see that an honest plebicite has to have a choice between left and right.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Seems a bit illogical. You won't vote for a party because of their name, effectively.

 

Or is because they completely ruined Scotland?

[Craig_]

For the sake of democracy in Scotland the Scottish Conservatives should disband and a new party along the lines of the Christian Democrats in Germany, UMP in France or the Republican party in th USA should be formed.

 

Since Thatcher, Torys in Scotland are unelectable, too English, too much baggage from Poll tax, Rosyth, Linwood, etc.

 

We need a pro-business, libertarian, Scottish party. One that doesn't kowtow to the special interest groups of anti-car, tree hugging environmentalists. Trade unions bank rolling a major party, revolving door courts, let anybody in and claim what they want, heroin addicts, and all manner of dossers need to have an antithesis.

 

At the moment we have the Labour party, SNP and Social Democrat whatevers with hardly the width of a credit card between them.

 

I cannot bring myself to vote for the Tory party and I know others with the same conviction. But we share the same values. I find myself just voting tactically against the lesser of perceived evils.

 

Presume those with a left leaning will naturally oppose this but true democrats must see that an honest plebicite has to have a choice between left and right.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Think you're right on one thing - the Scottish Tories should become independent of their English counterparts. Still wouldn't dream of voting for them, but still...

[Deek]

I always thought they were called the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party.

 

They want to remain in the Union of Great Britain and Northern Ireland so why should they disband and become a nationalistic right wing party. Why dont we disband the Liberal Democrats, the green party and the Scottish Socialists if you think we should disband the unelectable?

 

The conservatives took 17 seats in the last Scottish parliamentary elections which was one more than the Lib Dems.

 

I think your rationale and suggestion was not very well thought out and entirely undemocratic.

[Cheile]

The only good thing I can think of about the Scottish Tories is that David McLetchie is a Jambo.

[joe kickass2]

Seems a bit illogical. You won't vote for a party because of their name, effectively.

 

Or is because they completely ruined Scotland?

 

The Conservatives are seen as an English party for good reason. The brand is dead. Your last point is the impression everyone gets.

Rebranding happens all the time in politics, as in business.

Rebranding can give a fresh dynamism and emphasis. A new party can free themselves from past connotations. I would vote for a liberal right party with a scottish appeal.

 

Not illogical at all.

[Jambo66]

I always thought they were called the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party.

 

They want to remain in the Union of Great Britain and Northern Ireland so why should they disband and become a nationalistic right wing party. Why dont we disband the Liberal Democrats, the green party and the Scottish Socialists if you think we should disband the unelectable?

 

The conservatives took 17 seats in the last Scottish parliamentary elections which was one more than the Lib Dems.

 

I think your rationale and suggestion was not very well thought out and entirely undemocratic.

 

Interestingly, the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Association is and always has been independent of the party in England. The same cannot be said for Labour or the Lib Dems. When Scotland gains independence, it will have a resurgence at that point.

[joe kickass2]

I always thought they were called the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party.

 

And thereby alienating a large chunk of the electorate

They want to remain in the Union of Great Britain and Northern Ireland so why should they disband and become a nationalistic right wing party.

 

Bit emotional that. Nobody mentioned right wing or nationalistic.

 

Why dont we disband the Liberal Democrats, the green party and the Scottish Socialists if you think we should disband the unelectable?

 

Liberal Democrats are in their natural place anyway. The last two are not and never will be mainstream parties, not here, not anywhere really.

 

The conservatives took 17 seats in the last Scottish parliamentary elections which was one more than the Lib Dems.

 

17 out of 129. Not healthy for a democracy. 13% in total leaving a large chunk of the country unrepresented.

I think your rationale and suggestion was not very well thought out and entirely undemocratic.

How rude!

Why undemocratic?

[Ibrahim Tall]

Originally Posted by Deek

I always thought they were called the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party.

 

 

And thereby alienating a large chunk of the electorate

 

Given a key policy is conserving the union what would be the point in scrapping the name? Anyone who's alienated by it is alienated because they don't believe in the parties views on the Union, removing that from their name is hardly likely to change that.

 

A better idea surely would be to start a completely new party seperate from all which currently exist?

[Deek]

And thereby alienating a large chunk of the electorate

 

The majority of people in Scotland are alienated by the SNP, that is life, not everybody in Scotland is a nationalist.

 

 

Bit emotional that. Nobody mentioned right wing or nationalistic.

 

The Conservatives are a centre right party. You wanted an independent conservative type party in Scotland, you have a right wing nationalist.

 

 

Liberal Democrats are in their natural place anyway. The last two are not and never will be mainstream parties, not here, not anywhere really.

 

With less votes than the conservative party, but you dont want to disband them?

 

 

 

17 out of 129. Not healthy for a democracy. 13% in total leaving a large chunk of the country unrepresented.

 

16 out of 129 by the Lib Dems, is that unhealthy. 47 out of 129 for SNP, yet they are in power in Scotland, is that healthy? Are the remainder of the country unrepresented with their pro-British views?

 

How rude!

Why undemocratic?

 

In a free and fair society we should be able to vote for the party of our choice. Just because it does not fit your rationale does not mean we should all follow you, that would be undemocratic.

 

As for rudeness.

[John Findlay]

As one who has never been a Conservative voter. I still fail to see how the Conservatives from 1979-1997(1990-1997 post Margaret Thatcher) ruined Scotland without ruining England, Northern Ireland and Wales too?

 

 

As one who has lived under both Conservative PMs(Harold MacMillan, Ted Heath, Margaret Thatcher and John Major for the Conservatives). Harold Wilson, James Callachan, Anthony Blair and Gordon Brown for Labour.

 

Scotland is still here. It has in my opinion adapted well to the changing world. It may have lost what people might consider it's traditional industries, coal mining, shipbuilding and steelmaking but so has the rest of the UK. It has gained an expertise in IT, banking, insurance and tourism. When I was a child growing up in the 70s in Edinburgh the tourist season was definitely June-Sep. Nowadays without shadow of a doubt it is all year round.

 

Conservative primeministers have ruined Scotland no more or no less than Labour ones. I repeat again I say this as someone who does not vote conservative.

 

 

 

John

[joe kickass2]

 

As for rudeness.

 

:bootyshake::bootyshake: Yourself.

 

I think we will just go round in circles with this argument chief.

 

Still, to unstagnate Scottish politics a new liberal right (forza scozia anyone with energetic slightly dodgy business man (Donald trump/Duncan Ballentyne/Wallace Mercer type)) would be a breath of fresh air.

 

I'm sick of Labour careerists and not actually knowing what the SNP stand for except the obvious. We need a proper party that will be the antidote to wooly liberals in Scotland. You want stupid trams and over zealous traffic wardens? How about west coast politics obsessed with where their grandparents came from? Maybe Labour careerists with an eye on Westminster jobs. Bin them, bin the old Conservative and Unionists, move into the 21st century with a business/entrepreneurial focus.

[joe kickass2]

Given a key policy is conserving the union what would be the point in scrapping the name? Anyone who's alienated by it is alienated because they don't believe in the parties views on the Union, removing that from their name is hardly likely to change that.

 

A better idea surely would be to start a completely new party seperate from all which currently exist?

 

That's fine by me.

[Deek]

:bootyshake::bootyshake: Yourself.

 

I think we will just go round in circles with this argument chief.

 

Still, to unstagnate Scottish politics a new liberal right (forza scozia anyone with energetic slightly dodgy business man (Donald trump/Duncan Ballentyne/Wallace Mercer type)) would be a breath of fresh air.

 

I'm sick of Labour careerists and not actually knowing what the SNP stand for except the obvious. We need a proper party that will be the antidote to wooly liberals in Scotland. You want stupid trams and over zealous traffic wardens? How about west coast politics obsessed with where their grandparents came from? Maybe Labour careerists with an eye on Westminster jobs. Bin them, bin the old Conservative and Unionists, move into the 21st century with a business/entrepreneurial focus.

 

I agree that if Scotland was to become or seriously contemplated an independent country we would have to get away from the "British" institutions of Conservative, Labour and to a lesser extent the lib dems.

 

We could have a Social democrat or a Christian democrat party much the same as the Germans. But what comes first "The chicken or the egg"?

[Cobblers]

I agree that if Scotland was to become or seriously contemplated an independent country we would have to get away from the "British" institutions of Conservative, Labour and to a lesser extent the lib dems.

 

We could have a Social democrat or a Christian democrat party much the same as the Germans. But what comes first "The chicken or the egg"?

 

Deek

If we were independent wouldn't we need to have a Protestant Democrat and Catholic Democrat party.

[Boris]

17 out of 129. Not healthy for a democracy. 13% in total leaving a large chunk of the country unrepresented.

 

Not really. Given that proportional representation is used then the %age of seats should more or less reflect the %age of the vote.

 

So the country isn't undererpresented by Tories....

 

If anything it is far healthier for democracy given that under Westminster voting the Tories only have one MP.

[Deek]

Deek

If we were independent wouldn't we need to have a Protestant Democrat and Catholic Democrat party.

 

But who came first Cobblers?

[Cobblers]

As one who has never been a Conservative voter. I still fail to see how the Conservatives from 1979-1997(1990-1997 post Margaret Thatcher) ruined Scotland without ruining England, Northern Ireland and Wales too?

 

John

I'm pretty sure that there are many in South Wales and the North of England who would equally claim that the Conservatives under Margaret Thatcher ruined them as well. In fact I know she's hated in some parts of England (South Yorkshire, Liverpool, Tyneside) more than she's hated in Scotland.

 

As for Northern Ireland, I think they ruined it for themselves and are onyl coming out of it now that they've stopped blowing each other up.

[Cobblers]

But who came first Cobblers?

 

Good point, probably the Pict Democrats or the Viking Democrats.

[Deek]

Good point, probably the Pict Democrats or the Viking Democrats.

 

I always thought the Vikings were Liberal actually.

[Cobblers]

I always thought the Vikings were Liberal actually.

 

They certainly knew how to Party:dribble::dribble:

[speedbump]

For the sake of democracy in Scotland the Scottish Conservatives should disband and a new party along the lines of the Christian Democrats in Germany, UMP in France or the Republican party in th USA should be formed.

 

Since Thatcher, Torys in Scotland are unelectable, too English, too much baggage from Poll tax, Rosyth, Linwood, etc.

 

We need a pro-business, libertarian, Scottish party. One that doesn't kowtow to the special interest groups of anti-car, tree hugging environmentalists. Trade unions bank rolling a major party, revolving door courts, let anybody in and claim what they want, heroin addicts, and all manner of dossers need to have an antithesis.

 

At the moment we have the Labour party, SNP and Social Democrat whatevers with hardly the width of a credit card between them.

 

I cannot bring myself to vote for the Tory party and I know others with the same conviction. But we share the same values. I find myself just voting tactically against the lesser of perceived evils.

 

Presume those with a left leaning will naturally oppose this but true democrats must see that an honest plebicite has to have a choice between left and right.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Pish, since the SNP fluked the election Annabel Goldie and her party have been at the forefront of most important debates and holding wee smug eck to task. 1000 coppers and business rate cuts. Tartan Tories indeed. The casual flirting between AG and WSE every also helps:)

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

I believe there is a Scottish Enterprise Party that espouses Mr Kickasses views, although no doubt he won't support them for being too small.

[Dix Handley]

I believe there is a Scottish Enterprise Party that espouses Mr Kickasses views, although no doubt he won't support them for being too small.

 

..Now where have i heard that before? Are we talking glory hunting

or just blindly believing cos your faither believed in it.

[MacDonald Jardine]

:bootyshake::bootyshake: Yourself.

 

I think we will just go round in circles with this argument chief.

 

Still, to unstagnate Scottish politics a new liberal right (forza scozia anyone with energetic slightly dodgy business man (Donald trump/Duncan Ballentyne/Wallace Mercer type)) would be a breath of fresh air.

 

I'm sick of Labour careerists and not actually knowing what the SNP stand for except the obvious. We need a proper party that will be the antidote to wooly liberals in Scotland. You want stupid trams and over zealous traffic wardens? How about west coast politics obsessed with where their grandparents came from? Maybe Labour careerists with an eye on Westminster jobs. Bin them, bin the old Conservative and Unionists, move into the 21st century with a business/entrepreneurial focus.

 

As far as I can see the SNP stand for independence and basically nothing else.

If independence did come they'd split and some current SNP members would be in the type of party the OP wants to see.

[Therapist]

I still fail to see how the Conservatives from 1979-1997(1990-1997 post Margaret Thatcher) ruined Scotland without ruining England, Northern Ireland and Wales too?

 

Excellent point John.

 

They/she didn't. They/she initiated and carried through much needed changes to the British economy, sweeping out the old inefficient industries and bringing in new ones.

 

The sad fact of the matter is that one can't be a true socialist or left-winger without being able to state that one hates Thatcher. It's like a badge of honour or initiation oath. The really ironic thing is that most of the people who say they hate Thatcher, weren't old enough to appreciate the realities of the Thatcher era and make their own judgement.

[coppercrutch]

Excellent point John.

 

They/she didn't. They/she initiated and carried through much needed changes to the British economy, sweeping out the old inefficient industries and bringing in new ones.

 

The sad fact of the matter is that one can't be a true socialist or left-winger without being able to state that one hates Thatcher. It's like a badge of honour or initiation oath. The really ironic thing is that most of the people who say they hate Thatcher, weren't old enough to appreciate the realities of the Thatcher era and make their own judgement.

 

The amusing thing is even though they hate her they realise she was good at her job. When you say to a Labour or SNP supporter that Thatcher is 10 times the leader Brown will ever be they don't even bother to argue !!

 

This country could do with a Thatcher right now. Instead we get the most impotent and pathetic PM in history. Great...............

[Jam Tarts 1874]

It's not so long since the SNP were polling less votes than the tories, Labour and the Lib-dems. The future of the SNP looked so bad that the media clown Salmond packed it in. Suddenly it's all change with all the anti-English "Braveheart" voters and Salmond is happy to stoke the fires of the "we hate the English" brigade, it's crazy.

 

I hate the Conservatives, but they poll around 20% currently so are hardly all washed up - yet!

[Jam Tarts 1874]

The amusing thing is even though they hate her they realise she was good at her job. When you say to a Labour or SNP supporter that Thatcher is 10 times the leader Brown will ever be they don't even bother to argue !!

 

This country could do with a Thatcher right now. Instead we get the most impotent and pathetic PM in history. Great...............

 

 

Thatcher destroyed the community I grew up in and many others too throughout Scotland, Wales and the north of England. She ruined the lives of a whole generation of decent working class people. Let's not forget that Thatcher's Government thought that 4m unemployed was a price worth paying for tax cuts and that Thatcher's Government decided that there was no such thing as society.

 

Most political commentators have discredited the Thatcher years, just because someone makes a decision and sticks to it does not make them a good leader. Her decisions were borne out of bitterness, classism and vitriol.

[coppercrutch]

Thatcher destroyed the community I grew up in and many others too throughout Scotland, Wales and the north of England. She ruined the lives of a whole generation of decent working class people. Let's not forget that Thatcher's Government thought that 4m unemployed was a price worth paying for tax cuts and that Thatcher's Government decided that there was no such thing as society.

 

Most political commentators have discredited the Thatcher years, just because someone makes a decision and sticks to it does not make them a good leader. Her decisions were borne out of bitterness, classism and vitriol.

 

Discredited ? In what way ?

 

The most embarrassing time for our nation in the last 50 years is happening right now under a Labour Government. They are a joke. They come in spend too much money, the people see this. kick them out, and the Tories are left to clean up the mess. Happens over and over again.........

 

And as for destroying communities I think you will find Labour have done that every effectively in the last 10 years. Encouraging people to buy second homes in small villages that has destroyed the places.

 

Labour are ****. The tories are just a little bit less ****.

 

And as for the SNP they are a joke.

[Toggie88]

Pish, since the SNP fluked the election Annabel Goldie and her party have been at the forefront of most important debates and holding wee smug eck to task. 1000 coppers and business rate cuts. Tartan Tories indeed. The casual flirting between AG and WSE every also helps:)

 

The Torie tactic now seems to be, try and claim that they did everything good themselves.

 

Speedbump above in even claiming they are behind left wing policies. You couldn't make it up!

[Toggie88]

It's not so long since the SNP were polling less votes than the tories, Labour and the Lib-dems. The future of the SNP looked so bad that the media clown Salmond packed it in. Suddenly it's all change with all the anti-English "Braveheart" voters and Salmond is happy to stoke the fires of the "we hate the English" brigade, it's crazy.

 

I hate the Conservatives, but they poll around 20% currently so are hardly all washed up - yet!

 

Pffff you're a ****ing idiot, mate.

[Therapist]

Thatcher destroyed the community I grew up in

 

She ruined the lives of a whole generation of decent working class people.

 

Thatcher's Government thought that 4m unemployed was a price worth paying for tax cuts

 

Thatcher's Government decided that there was no such thing as society.

 

Her decisions were borne out of bitterness, classism and vitriol.

 

If there was a prize for the most left wing cliches in a single post, you'd have won it by a country mile.

[A Boy Named Crow]

Thatcher was terrible for Scotland - but you have to hand it to her, she achieved what she set out to do. I was out for dinner last night on the South Bank - they might as well put a statue of her up there. Scotland does need an effective right of centre party to counter the socialist bampotery you get from Lanarkshire. It just needs to be serving Scotland, not using it as a piggy bank!

[Miller Jambo 60]

Seems a bit illogical. You won't vote for a party because of their name, effectively.

 

Or is because they completely ruined Scotland?

 

Are there still tories in Scotland.